A way to make Revenant less rigid

[Acheron.1580]

I know on the surface a selling point of revenant is that it sort-of has access to 2 heals, 6 utilities and 2 elites at any time. But honestly most builds will only use maybe 2 of those utilities and only 1 of those elites; in the long run it actually feels like you have fewer options despite having access to so many at a time.

The other issue I have is that when trying to deal with specific mechanics as well as maintain a healthy rotation, the class feels like it needs to sacrifice something. As an example, if you are doing fractals and dealing with no pain no gain, sometimes waiting on the timer for the buffs to come up disrupts rotation, or you end up needing to change legends and have to wait to get back to mallyx which is frustrating.

 

My proposition, which I feel both utilizes the resources on the revenant while still feeling balanced, is to be able to choose heal, utilities and elites like a normal class for each legend equipped. In order to keep it balanced with minimal impact on people not wanting to use said system would be to effect the energy costs of the skills, dependent on the legends that you have equipped.  I'd propose +5 energy cost if you have the legend equipped but stowed, or +10 if the legend isn't even equipped. For drain skills you could apply the same idea at 1 higher drain, or 2 higher drain for unequipped.

 

Example for standard skills:

I'm using Inspiring Reinforcement while Jalis is the active Legend: 30 energy cost (normal cost).

I'm using Inspiring Reinforcement on Ventari, Jalis is my second Legend equipped: 35 energy cost (+5).

I'm using Inspiring Reinforcement on Shiro, and my second Legend is NOT Jalis: 40 energy cost (+10).

 

Example for consuming skills:

I'm using Vengeful Hammers while Jalis is the active Legend: -6 energy drain (normal cost).

I'm using Vengeful Hammers on Ventari, Jalis is my second Legend equipped: -7 energy drain (-1 drain)

I'm using Vengeful Hammers on Shiro, and my second Legend is NOT Jalis: -8 energy drain (-2 drain)

 

Revenant was originally designed with the idea of low cooldowns but with an energy cost so that players had to choose how to allocate resources rather than cooldowns. Revenant as it is now just has both a resource cost and a hefty cooldown on most abilities, deviating from the original design concept. I feel like this would bring a lot more depth to the class, would make it significantly less rigid for mechanics while also bringing it back closer to the original concept of its unique resource allocation. It also doesn't force or punish players who aren't interested in changing it up, as those abilities and costs would remain the same.

 

For Vindicator, I'd suggest being able to slot either Kurzick or Luxon, get rid of Alliance Tactics (it's just super clunky even now), and make anything that references it give it's effect when activating either a Kurzick or  Luxon ability at half strength, and doubling the effect and renewing the buff if you use both within it's buff timer. You can add a cooldown if somehow it becomes too powerful.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Acheron.1580
I forgot Vindicator

[Infusion.7149]

Part of the reason why revenant is so consistent when used by players is the rigidity. The skill expression (due to low cooldowns) and energy management becomes the gameplay.

[Acheron.1580]

I would agree but I find their cooldowns overall feel about the same as other classes (there are some exceptions for sure). I find it's great if you want to unga bunga it, I loved my revenant for its rotation flow, but I find it more frustrating when you start adding in boss / fractal mechanics.

[Infusion.7149]

Here are some specific examples:
* Inspiring Reinforcement on 10s cooldown when stability on other specs usually is 25,  30+ second cooldown (kept in check by 30 energy , equal to 6s of energy when no other skills are used)
* 600 total CC on Darkrazor's Daring with 12s cooldown when even the most remotely competitive (Sanctuary) is on 40s, kept in check by the fact that it is not instant
* 5s cooldown shadowstep on Phase Transversal (12s in PvP) which is kept in check by energy
* Resistance on Pain Absorption (a stunbreak) basically having no cooldown, kept in check by 30 energy
* zero cooldown stunbreak on Riposting Shadows
* 10s cooldown AoE stunbreak on Awakening
* zero recharge boon rip on Banish enchantment kept in check by 20-30 energy depending on mode
* zero recharge upkeep skills (5s recharge if you bottom out your energy) --- the best examples are dome (Protective Solace), Impossible Odds. Urn of Saint Viktor and Soulcleave summit are on below 3s cooldowns.
* zero recharge on Rite of the Great Dwarf (nonremovable damage mitigation) kept in check by 40 energy cost and 1.25s cast

The only thing fundamentally different from other classes is the energy mechanic which keeps the low cooldowns in check. It is no different if you have 2 utility bars (3 with Vindicator) or if you have kits/tomes/4 attunements/transforms such as CA and shroud skills. Two heal skills is no different than having a heal on Celestial Avatar, a tome, or a utility skill.

It is dissimilar to thief since thief has no cooldown on weapon skills but has similar cooldowns to other classes for utilities.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[Yasai.3549]

No thanks for adding even more Energy Cost for pseudo QoL when they should just be reworking certain skills to actually not suck. 

 

As it stands right now, each Legend has certain undesirable skills which will be swapped out immediately. You see someone in X Legend stance, you know they're probably running the current Legend + something else because the default kit sucks. 

Example: 
If you see someone who is Herald and running Shiro, I bet you with both nutsacks that they swapped Jade Winds for Chaotic Release because not only does it not have a upfront cost, it also doesn't have a cast cost, so it's excellent replacement for Jade Winds. 

 

This isn't a solution at all, it's a placebo. You are still left with several borderline dogwater skills which people gladly pay 10 Energy to not have to deal with. 

[Arthelad.5418]

On 3/26/2023 at 5:21 PM, Yasai.3549 said:

No thanks for adding even more Energy Cost for pseudo QoL when they should just be reworking certain skills to actually not suck. 

 

As it stands right now, each Legend has certain undesirable skills which will be swapped out immediately. You see someone in X Legend stance, you know they're probably running the current Legend + something else because the default kit sucks. 

Example: 
If you see someone who is Herald and running Shiro, I bet you with both nutsacks that they swapped Jade Winds for Chaotic Release because not only does it not have a upfront cost, it also doesn't have a cast cost, so it's excellent replacement for Jade Winds. 

 

This isn't a solution at all, it's a placebo. You are still left with several borderline dogwater skills which people gladly pay 10 Energy to not have to deal with. 

I wouldn't say core legends are bad. The worst core legend would be ventari which has insane proj block but depends heavily on salvation gear and sinergy with other legends to be great. Mallyx has boon corrupt and great condi sinergy with all specs especially renegade, Dwarf has good self defense and stab, shiro has great offense and doging. They all synergize with more powerful legends making them accentuate eachother. They are better with a spec beacuse they benefit from the new traits that can argument them. That is unless we're talking about pvp, in which case its a whole different story of underpowered skills and energy cost,  yes. 

 

About the jade winds. It's not that it costs energy and has a cast, it's about how little that benefits the player. Yes it has 3s stun, great. But I have no energy to use for my burst to benefit from said stun and the enemy has a breakstun. It should have reduced energy or do more damage to make it so that i can use my other legend to finish a smaller burst to compensate for it, also possibly make the stun 3+1/2 s to actually make it high risk high reward by making the enemy be incapacitated . The best way would be to make it cost less energy so that the player can bait a breakstun, before going into shiro and decimate them. Maybe make it have 35 energy and have increase by 5-10 secs or more. But im not an expert at pvp so all I've just said could be complete bollocks ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

[UncreativeGreen.2019]

The only thing that I could think of for a lot of revs elites (and maybe some utilities) would be scaling effects of each skill. The downside would mostly likely involve more cooldowns slapped on things. But as an example,  jade winds could be used anywhere from 10 to 50 energy, with scaling damage, (maybe radius too) vuln, and most importantly, stun duration. Each elite wouldn’t fit this template and maybe they wouldn’t all scale from 10. RotGD might be a bit strong if you could get a stun break at 10, so maybe it starts at 20-30 and now scales to 40-50. It’s not a great idea, and would definitely raise the skill ceiling of the class due to loosing the predicable costs and would most likely result in more cooldowns in the class, but it’s the only idea I have that isn’t just raw power creep.

edit: forgot to explain that if you have 45 energy and use Jade winds it would use the 40 cost s cable version of the skill leaving you with 5 energy. This makes the skill more useful for stunning things when you need to but it doesn’t solve the issue of being able to burst after the skill if you are still in Shiro. Though It does lend itself better to swapping legends and bursting.

Edited March 28, 2023 by UncreativeGreen.2019