Pick-Up-Group-Only Raiding On NA Isn't Dead. I Full Cleared Every Strike and Raid Encounter But 1 In Masterwork Gear On An Off-Meta Build This Week To Prove It.

[Sobx.1758]

33 minutes ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Yeah, that's probably true since he's on NA. The standards on EU are higher. If I were charitable, people on NA probably need to hear someone say something that is quite obvious for EU.

It doesn't matter where he plays, it was about certain group of people fearmongering on the forum, spreading weird lies. This was the explanation you requested in the preivous post: "Please show me a single person who claimed you need to have near benchmark dps to start learning the content. Who says that? Not even elitists say that." 
Random people spread this bullkitten on the forum, newer players check the forum, see how ""they need to pull high-end dps numbers or they won't find a group"" and then never even try playing the content while potentially passing these false claims along. This could be seen on this forum rather often.
So again: if someone cares about high dps, they're running dps meters and have set requirements to play with people they want to play with anyways. Showing "you don't need high-end dps" isn't done for those people and I'm not sure how it is supposed to hurt anyone.

[Krzysztof.5973]

On 4/29/2023 at 11:16 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

It doesn't matter where he plays, it was about certain group of people fearmongering on the forum, spreading weird lies. This was the explanation you requested in the preivous post: "Please show me a single person who claimed you need to have near benchmark dps to start learning the content. Who says that? Not even elitists say that." 
Random people spread this bullkitten on the forum, newer players check the forum, see how ""they need to pull high-end dps numbers or they won't find a group"" and then never even try playing the content while potentially passing these false claims along. This could be seen on this forum rather often.
So again: if someone cares about high dps, they're running dps meters and have set requirements to play with people they want to play with anyways. Showing "you don't need high-end dps" isn't done for those people and I'm not sure how it is supposed to hurt anyone.

Didn't those offenders get a lot of pushback tho? Maybe that's why I didn't understand you at first. For newer players misleading titles probably do more harm than comments. Anyway, offtopic. 

Edited May 1, 2023 by Krzysztof.5973

[Obtena.7952]

17 hours ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

You should play meta if you are new. 

That doesn't make sense. Nothing says a new player should play meta builds ... except the people that push meta builds on everyone.

Meta builds are for optimal play. If the people playing those builds are not capable of playing them optimally because they are new to the game or the encounter,  then the value of those builds being used because they are meta is completely lost in that scenario. A new player using a meta build will not meet the numbers a meta build is capable of in the hands of an experienced meta build player. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Krzysztof.5973]

21 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't make sense. Nothing says a new player should play meta builds ... except the people that push meta builds on everyone.

Meta builds are for optimal play. If the people playing those builds are not capable of playing them optimally because they are new to the game or the encounter,  then the value of those builds being used because they are meta is completely lost in that scenario. A new player using a meta build will not meet the numbers a meta build is capable of in the hands of an experienced meta build player. 

New player playing meta build will maintain higher performance of a build that does better in comparison to suboptimal build that already is inferior. That is why experienced raiders recommend meta builds. It's not a must, it is simply encouraged. Meta is not devil incarnate. 

[Obtena.7952]

11 minutes ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

New player playing meta build will maintain higher performance of a build that does better in comparison to suboptimal build that already is inferior. 

Except the goal as a new player isn't to maintain higher performance. It's to learn the encounter. They will learn the encounters best by doing that on builds they already comfortable with or those that offer more sustain or have other features for mobility, etc ... that meta builds typically throw away for choices that optimize a specific role.

So who is actually benefitting from putting new players into meta builds? I can assure you it's not the new players. 

But on the other hand, if your goal is to just brainwash people into thinking non-meta builds are inferior and train them into an army of meta-using players that you don't have to filter from your PUGs, then OF COURSE you think new players should use meta builds. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[vares.8457]

12 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Except the goal as a new player isn't to maintain higher performance. It's to learn the encounter. They will learn the encounters best by doing that on builds they already comfortable with or those that offer more sustain or have other features for mobility, etc ... that meta builds typically throw away for choices that optimize a specific role.

So who is actually benefitting from putting new players into meta builds? I can assure you it's not the new players. 

But on the other hand, if your goal is to just brainwash people into thinking non-meta builds are inferior and train them into an army of meta-using players that you don't have to filter from your PUGs, then OF COURSE you think new players should use meta builds. 

You can do both. I learned the raids while playing a meta build. So yeah, players should use meta builds in raids. 

[Obtena.7952]

20 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

You can do both. I learned the raids while playing a meta build. So yeah, players should use meta builds in raids. 

Sure, it CAN be done. Lots of things CAN be done. What CAN be done isn't a justification of what SHOULD be done.

The point here is that people recommending meta builds for new players learning encounters are not doing it for the benefit of the new player. You can read it yourself; the poster wants the highest performance from new players. It's simply about his own interests, not those of the new player. 

Again, there is no "players SHOULD play this" in GW2 because there are no game mechanics that require it. If there are, it's exceptional, not standard. That's not debatable. This thread is just another bit of evidence that supports the idea that GW2 is not a  'SHOULD PLAY THIS' game. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[vares.8457]

44 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, it CAN be done. Lots of things CAN be done. What CAN be done isn't a justification of what SHOULD be done.

The point here is that people recommending meta builds for new players learning encounters are not doing it for the benefit of the new player. You can read it yourself; the poster wants the highest performance from new players. It's simply about his own interests, not those of the new player. 

Again, there is no "players SHOULD play this" in GW2 because there are no game mechanics that require it. If there are, it's exceptional, not standard. That's not debatable. This thread is just another bit of evidence that supports the idea that GW2 is not a  'SHOULD PLAY THIS' game. 

It’s not about that. It’s about the social aspect, you are not alone in instanced group content and selfish behavior doesn’t belong there. So you should think about the others and play the most efficient build. Play solo if you want to play selfish. 

[Obtena.7952]

16 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

It’s not about that. It’s about the social aspect, you are not alone in instanced group content and selfish behavior doesn’t belong there. So you should think about the others and play the most efficient build. 

Nothing selfish about people playing how they want. Sure, there is a social aspect  ... and the most efficient build a new player can use is not likely to be meta in encounters where they don't know what they are doing ... because meta builds are by definition optimal in the hands of experienced players. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[vares.8457]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure  ... and the most efficient build a new player can use is not meta in encounters where they don't know what they are doing. 

No. Like I wrote before, I learned all raid encounters playing a meta build. You can learn and perform well at the same time. 

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, vares.8457 said:

No. Like I wrote before, I learned all raid encounters playing a meta build. You can learn and perform well at the same time. 

Good for you. and like I wrote before, what you can do or what can be done is not an indication of what is generally best for a new player. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[vares.8457]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Good for you. and Like I wrote before, what you CAN do is not an indication of what is best for a new player. 

I was a fairly new player when I learned the raid encounters and I know a lot of other players who did the same. 

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

I was a fairly new player when I learned the raid encounters and I know a lot of other players who did the same. 

Nice .. that doesn't change what I said. What you can do or what others have done is not an indication of what is generally best for a new player. These anecdotes are not justification for how you think people should play the game. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[vares.8457]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Nice .. that doesn't change what I said. What you can do is not an indication of what is generally best for a new player. 

It is generally best for a new player. Encouraging selfish behavior and off meta builds is not. 

[Obtena.7952]

9 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

It is generally best for a new player.

That doesn't make sense. New players goal is to learn the encounter. Meta builds are about optimized play in the hands of people that are experienced. That doesn't fit the new player profile. If they use a meta build, that should be THEIR CHOICE to do so, not based on some completely absurd notion there is a way they SHOULD play the game. 

Again, you aren't going to justify telling people what builds they should be using in a game that is designed around allowing people to choose from a wide range of builds they can be successful with. It's a non-starter. If you have a problem with 'selfish' players, then don't play with them, but don't think you are going to spread misinformation about how they should play the game so you don't have to deal with them in your PUGs. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Sobx.1758]

Neither of you are somehow "ultimately correct" here, since it depends from build to build and player to player 🤷‍♂️ High dps meta build is irrelevant if it requires a lot of specific input a newer player without knowledge of the class wouldn't be able to do. On the other hand there are also meta builds that can still perform well enough without playing to its maximum potential. So yeah, newer player probably reasonably could/should play some of the better builds to do better -even if nowhere near its maximum possible dps- but it's not some kind of pick a card, any card "pick a meta build, any meta build" type of deal.  

As I initially said, I don't see this thread as OP somehow recommending new players to play his build and use low gear, it's simply imitating players with lower performance participating in pug groups.

Edited April 30, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[vares.8457]

10 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't make sense. New players goal is to learn the encounter. Meta builds are about optimized play in the hands of people that are experienced. That doesn't fit the new player profile. If they use a meta build, that should be THEIR CHOICE to do so, not based on some coercion of other players telling them they are 'selfish' if they don't. 

Again, you aren't going to justify telling people what builds they should be using in a game that is designed around allowing people to choose from a wide range of builds they can be successful with. It's a non-starter. If you have a problem with 'selfish' players, then don't play with them, but don't think you are going to spread misinformation about how they should play the game so you don't have to deal with them in your PUGs. 

I don’t raid in pug groups because I don’t want that selfish players with off meta builds that perform badly waste my time. 
If you don’t care about the other 9 players in your squad then maybe play open world. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by vares.8457

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

I don’t raid in pug groups because I don’t want that selfish players with off meta builds that perform badly waste my time. 

Good for you. That doesn't change what I said though. 

The idea that players, new or not, should play meta builds is wrong. That's not how the game works, and your post is even an indication of that because you can CHOOSE to not play with people you don't want to play with ... and what other people choose to play wouldn't affect you based on your choice to play that way anyways. 

So the answer here isn't to have some intimidation and misinformation campaign to coerce non-meta users to play how you think they should play. The answer here is to do exactly what you are saying you are doing; make choices that allow you to play with people you want to play with. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[vares.8457]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Good for you. That doesn't change what I said though. 

The idea that players, new or not, should play meta builds is wrong. That's not how the game works, and your post is even an indication of that because you can CHOOSE to not play with people you don't want to play with ... and what other people choose to play wouldn't affect based on your choice to play that way anyways. 

Of course you can choose to be selfish and a burden to your squad, but maybe with that attitude you shouldn’t play instanced group content. 

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, vares.8457 said:

Of course you can choose to be selfish and a burden to your squad, but maybe with that attitude you shouldn’t play instanced group content. 

You aren't in a position to tell people what content they should be allowed to do just because you don't like the choices they make on how they play the game. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Sobx.1758]

6 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Good for you. That doesn't change what I said though. 

The idea that players, new or not, should play meta builds is wrong. That's not how the game works, and your post is even an indication of that because you can CHOOSE to not play with people you don't want to play with ... and what other people choose to play wouldn't affect based on your choice to play that way anyways. 

I'm a bit confused here. You understood the concept of what he's talking about when you were making a thread asking for a "site similar to snowcrows but with strike mission builds", but now you somehow... don't understand the point of showing those builds to newer players because they won't perform to those builds' maximum potential? How does that work here?

Edited April 30, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I'm a bit confused here. You understood the concept of what he's talking about when you were making a thread asking for a "site similar to snowcrows but with strike mission builds", but now you somehow... don't understand the point of showing those builds to newer players because they won't perform to those builds maximum potential?

I'm confused too ... I don't see what I'm saying that would indicate I don't understand the point of showing people the max potential builds, for whatever reason. I'm not against giving players information about optimal builds. I'm against the idea that optimal builds are THE builds people SHOULD be playing.  The builds people play ... that should be THEIR choice, based on how they want to play, not because someone provided false information about how they should play. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Sobx.1758]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm confused too ... I don't see what I'm saying that would indicate I don't understand the point of showing people the max potential builds, for whatever reason. I'm not against giving players information about optimal builds. I'm against the idea that optimal builds are THE builds people SHOULD be playing.  

👇

16 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

On the other hand there are also meta builds that can still perform well enough without playing to its maximum potential. So yeah, newer player probably reasonably could/should play some of the better builds to do better -even if nowhere near its maximum possible dps- but it's not some kind of pick a card, any card "pick a meta build, any meta build" type of deal.  

[vares.8457]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You aren't in a position to tell people what content they should be allowed to do just because you don't like the choices they make on how they play the game. 

I didn’t. I suggested that maybe instanced group content is not the ideal content when you prefer a selfish play style and don’t care about other players in your squad. 

[Obtena.7952]

19 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

I didn’t. I suggested that maybe instanced group content is not the ideal content when you prefer a selfish play style and don’t care about other players in your squad. 

That 'suggestion' doesn't make sense ... because it implies that the only teams that do instanced content are the ones that want people to play optimally and that people should only do content 'ideally'. That's wrong. That's not how the game is designed. There are lots of teams that don't care about what people play. There are lots of builds, even non-meta ones, that people like to play and can be successful using. 

This thread is evidence of BOTH of those things. 

Again, your post is EXACTLY what I'm talking about when metapushers regard instanced content like some kind of exclusive club. I'm 100% certain that is NOT how Anet intends the content to be experienced by the playerbase. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952