[PvE Balance] Mirage's Clone Dependency Can Be Fixed. Here's How. (Updated April 27)

[Virtuality.8351]

April 27 update: an alternative solution has been added to the proposal along with various tweaks to the original one, base on feedback the community provides. Thank you all for participating in the discussion! I hope the developers see this and make some meaningful updates!

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NO OTHER CLASS in this game is as dependent as Mirage on micro-managing their companion.

The need for micro-managing Clones (with all its impracticality and the frustration it brings) comes from one single Mirage trait:

Infinite Horizon.

The trait demands player to maintain 3 active Clones to reach its full effect, which is obviously problematic when...

• Your enemies are low-health trash mobs, and your Clones repeatedly despawn after mobs are defeated.
• Your foes or mechanics destroy your Clones easily.
• Your target phases, causing your Clones to despawn for lack of  target...etc.

Now, here is the solution...(original proposal)

Change how Infinite Horizon works. The trait now instead applies the following effect (Apr. 27 update):

• Whenever Mirage generates a Clone, they gain one stack of Infiinite Horizon (special effect) for 10 seconds. (Max. 3 stacks)
• Boons, Conditions & Crowd Control of all Ambush skills now scale with how many stacks of Infiinite Horizon (special effect) Mirage has.

To make sure that Mirage Clones still serve as good distraction/decoy to their opponent (this one is more about sPvP/WvW):

• Mirage Clones perform the ambush skill action when Mirage gain Mirage Cloak but only do 1 point direct damage without additional effect. (Baseline, with or with out Infinite Horizon)

To further incentivize players to use their core mechanics (i.e. Shatter) more often:

• Mirage Shatter skills redirect their Clones to the target selected by the player.
• Mirage Shatter skills generate a Clone at their target if three Clones are shattered (successfully or not).

This way...

• Players are redirected toward Clone generation instead of impractical Clone management.
• Clones return to their intended function: decoy for enemies and ammo for Shatter skills, instead of source of DPS/Boon/Condition that one has to micromanage to maintain.
• Players are now no longer discouraged to shatter their Clones except some extremely specific timing.
• Players are now no longer required to monitor whether their Clones have finished casting Ambush skill (so that they can dodge again to proc next round of Ambush).

An alternative solution would be...(Apr. 27 update)

First of all, Mesmer Clones need better survivability:

• Clones gain increased health. (PvE only; baseline for core Mesmer.)

This change, though, still would not help Clones survive one-shot mechanics or boss phasing. Therefore:

• When a Clone de-spawns, your Clone generating skills are recharged. (Baseline for core Mesmer.) 

Then we need to stop punishing Mesmer players for successfully defeating their enemies:

• When a Clone loses its target (be it defeated or de-spawn), it is immediately and automatically redirected to the target the player selects at the moment.
• If a Clone loses its previous target when no other target is select by the player , it is then redirected to the closest foe to the player character within 240 radius.
• If no available target is within 240 radius of player character for 5 seconds, a Clone may despawn.
• Baseline for core Mesmer; alternatively, introduced via Mirage Adept tier minor trait.

Then we still need to fix the targeting issue:

• Clones are redirected to your current target when you cast an Ambush skill. (Introduced via Adept tier minor trait.)

To further incentivize players to use their core mechanics (i.e. Shatter) more often:

• Mirage Shatter skills redirect their Clones to the target selected by the player.
• Mirage Shatter skills generate a Clone at their target if three clones are shattered (successfully or not).

Finally, allow staff Mirage to generate Clones at a faster rate:

• Reduce cooldown for Phantasmal Warlock to 10 s baseline (8 s traited and 6.4 s traited with Alacrity).

Although this one is obviously more complex, a good portion of player do want Clones to remain a more active and contributing component in combat instead of just distraction or shatter fodders based on various feedbacks (see the posts below).

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P.S.

Off the topic but I'd like to second Infusion's idea for Alacrity Mirage here:

On 4/25/2023 at 7:46 AM, Infusion.7149 said:

If mirage is to be a solid alacrity provider outside of raids/strikes then you really need the clone reliance to be removed and for other weapons to work besides staff...

...I would rather Arenanet go the direction of Sand Shards on Dune Cloak trait providing alacrity and removing alacrity off mirage clone chaos vortex completely.

I actually think this is the correct way to go. Personally, I never like the idea of double slotting the same type of weapon (Staff/Staff) and even less so when such setup becomes optimal under the current design. This will open up more active gameplay and less stale rotation for Mirage players.

P.S.

For those who have played GW2 for more than 5 years, you probably remember that, before Feb. 6, 2018, Phantasms could persist indefinitely as long as their target, just like how Clones have always been.

It was then completely overhauled for several reasons, but they all come down to one question: "To Shatter, or not to Shatter?"

Since Phantasms could persist indefinitely, they discourage players to use Shatter skills. The tension has been well elaborated in a follow-up post by Gaile Gray:

[W]e've discovered...that providing this tension usually ends up removing the incentive to use the profession's core mechanic and leads to more passive gameplay. This can be seen in a lot of "optimized" builds for mesmers involving summoning three phantasms and then auto-attacking for extended periods of time in order to avoid destroying the phantasms by using another illusion skill.

The thing developers back then did not realize was that, it was all very similar for Infinite Horizon Mirage.

Yes, Phantasms back then promoted way too passive gameplay for Mesmer, while Infinite Horizon promoted (and now still does) micro-management. They both, however, disincentivized players to use Shatter skills, the core mechanism for Mesmer.

I would argue that distraction is what Mesmer Clones primarily about, and therefore the decision to shatter (or not to) should really depend on whether the player wish to keep the Clones to aggro and nothing else. Therefore I proposed new Shatter mechanics to mitigate such disincentivization above.

Edited April 28, 2023 by Virtuality.8351

[Gesbo.6420]

OK, interesting idea however this returns us to the issue at hand - fighting the staff axe build that arena net obviously don't want to be in the game. 

 

Also the unique thing about the class is managing the illusions to be efficient. Simplifying everything is not always the way to go (mantra rework and revert case and point)

[Virtuality.8351]

19 hours ago, Gesbo.6420 said:

Also the unique thing about the class is managing the illusions to be efficient.

Well, I agree that simplification is not always the solution, but I am not so sure about this one.

Interestingly, illusion management has long stopped being a thing for Mesmer class since Feb. 6, 2018. It was that day when Phantasms stopped persisting indefinitely after spawned, and instead became something you could just fire once and forget. For more info, check out this official post.

I would say that Phantasm management has been proven to be bad gameplay design 5 years ago. The developers simply forgot that Clones shared the same problem. Now it is a good time to do something about it.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Virtuality.8351

[ascii.1369]

38 minutes ago, Virtuality.8351 said:

I would say that Phantasm management has been proven to be bad gameplay design 5 years ago.

To be fair, the fact that it was changed isn't proof that it was a good change. In my mind they should have never reduced mesmers defining mechanic to little more than shatter ammo. Mirage is currently the only spec that actually uses clones for combat.

 

I will admit that it doesn't work super well for PvE. However, the fix should be to provide better tools for clone management, not to effectively get rid of the mechanic and make it just ammo. There is a lot they could do in terms of how clones work, as well as in terms of active clone management that would improve clone performance in PvE.

[Virtuality.8351]

11 hours ago, ascii.1369 said:

To be fair, the fact that it was changed isn't proof that it was a good change.

Good point.

According to the developers, Phantasms back then promoted way too passive gameplay (with which I concur). On the other hand, Infinite Horizon promoted (and now still does) micro-management. They both, however, disincentivized players to use Shatter skills, the core mechanism for Mesmer.

So basically there are two problems:

1. Ill designed clone mechanics and lack of means to properly manage.
2. Shatter skills are presented as a loss for Mirage traited with Infinite Horizon.

To address the first problem, I actually came up with an alternative solution before starting this thread:

First of all, Mirage Clones need better survivability:

• Mirage Clones gain increased health. (Introduced via Adept tier minor trait.)

This change, though, still would not help Clones survive one-shot mechanics or boss phasing. Therefore:

• The following mechanic is added to Infinite Horizon:
• When a Clone is destroyed or despawn, recharge your clone generating skills.

Then we need to stop punishing Mirage players for successfully defeating their enemies:

• When target of a Mirage Clone is defeated, it is then immediately and automatically redirected to the target the player selects.
• If no target is selected the moment a Clone loses its previous target, it is then redirected to the closest foe to the player character within 240 radius.
• If no available target is within 240 radius of player character for 5 seconds, a Clone may despawn.
• Introduced via Adept tier minor trait.

Then we still need to fix the targeting issue:

• Clones are redirected to your current target when you cast an Ambush skill. (Introduced via Adept tier minor trait.)

...at which point I could not help but to ask myself:

"Do people really want something as complex as such?"

And I quickly lost faith. I could not come up with anything less complex while retaining Clone's current function. Eventually I scrapped everything and started over with the proposal now you see in the original post.

As for the second problem, I just came up with an idea:

To further incentivize players to use their core mechanics (i.e. Shatter) more often, Mirage could also use a unique set of Shatter skills that create a clone near their target if three clones are successfully Shattered.

This way...

• Mirage players traited with Infinite Horizon will gain one stack of special effect proposed above, which still incentivize a rotation that quickly creates and then immediately Shatters 3 clones.
• Mirage players not traited with Infinite Horizon will still be a bit safer after Shattering all 3 clones, knowing that a new clone would be created and could aggro or catch your foes' attention.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Virtuality.8351

[Virtuality.8351]

1 hour ago, ascii.1369 said:

There is a lot they could do in terms of how clones work, as well as in terms of active clone management that would improve clone performance in PvE.

Actually, I am highly interested in your idea on how clones could function better and potential means to manage them.

Would you like to share it here? Together, maybe we could come up with something that actually works.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Virtuality.8351

[Passerbye.6291]

Honestly, just having the illusions not disappear on target death and have them target closest nearby enemy would solve a lot of my frustration with it, but if I recall correctly, they don't want it to be the case, which kinda condemns mirage to be really bad in any kind of multiple target situation.
I really don't mind accounting for their positioning and death as it feels like a part of playing mesmer.

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by Passerbye.6291

[ascii.1369]

18 hours ago, Virtuality.8351 said:

"Do people really want something as complex as such?"

I can only speak for myself, but short answer: yes.

Long answer below 😄
 

18 hours ago, Virtuality.8351 said:

Actually, I am highly interested in your idea on how clones could function better and potential means to manage them.

Well, I‘m the first to admit that I haven’t spend the time to think this all the way through, especially for PvE since I don’t spend much time on it. But I can certainly throw out some ideas.

 

Since you mentioned shatters being Mesmers core mechanic, let’s start with what I view as Mesmers core mechanic. In terms of class fantasy I would say the essence of Mesmer is to bamboozle the enemy with trickery and illusions, which is implemented in the game through clones + target break + stealth. Shatters to me are just an addition to make the clone mechanic more interesting, not a mechanic in and of itself.

 

If it was up to me, I would radically redesign shatters as utility/defensive cds and compensate in terms of damage by buffing weapon skills and clone damage accordingly. That way the trade-off would be to either keep your clones for damage or sacrifice that damage for defensive/utility purposes as needed.

 

This would of course also require changes to how clones work for all the reasons you mentioned. On that front I think you have the right ideas, just thinking a bit too small. Don’t make those changes for mirage specifically through traits, make them baseline.

18 hours ago, Virtuality.8351 said:

Clones gain increased health.

Just that, period. In PvE I see no reason for why clones should die easily and for PvP the precise amount of health would need some balancing.

18 hours ago, Virtuality.8351 said:

This change, though, still would not help Clones survive one-shot mechanics or boss phasing

Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t see an issue here. If the previous change is implemented you will not have to generate as many clones on a constant basis. So if you know the fight, you can make sure to have clone generation ready to go for those moments.

18 hours ago, Virtuality.8351 said:

Then we need to stop punishing Mirage players for successfully defeating their enemies:

Again, yes but not just for mirage. That one I would bake into shatters (since I would rework those anyway as already mentioned). Make f1 a clone redirect on low cd. Probably would still need some additional effect so it would be worth using on a Boss where you have the same target for a long time. Maybe something like: redirect clones to this target, while clones that are already on this target do X. This way you could just redirect clones to a higher health target before the old one dies.
Also, with a dedicated clone redirect on f1, clones probably just shouldn’t despawn while you’re in combat. If a clone loses its target it just waits until you redirect it.

Edited April 24, 2023 by ascii.1369

[Gesbo.6420]

Staff staff mirage has a ridiculous amount of clone generation in pve with the 2 phantams, phase retreat and the trait that allows you to summon clones on deception skills. The flow of the build is basically casting your phantasms, generating 3 clones shattering then before the phantasms turn into clones and fill the gaps in generation with jaunt. And with you basically always dodging you are permenantly having your clones avoid damage of any kind. 

 

Now, if this was the case for pvp as well it would be fun, however we have a single dodge despite the fact the specs main mechanic is dodging... 

 

I don't fully agree with your suggestions but I applaud you for the effor you've put into developing and fleshing your idea. It feels ti me that the mesmer profession has lost a lot of its original concept unfortunately so any help is welcome.

[Infusion.7149]

If mirage is to be a solid alacrity provider outside of raids/strikes then you really need the clone reliance to be removed and for other weapons to work besides staff. Respawning clones would not do anything, the biggest change that would improve dealing with trash mobs without a full overhaul would be dropping phantasmal warlock cooldown significantly if the target dies. Axe has a lower cooldown of 6.4 to 8 seconds and Lingering Thoughts (clone generation) is an ammo skill.

Since clone alacrity generation is what is being nerfed in the May 2 update preview, I would venture a guess that the direction we are headed is the player provides the boons. I would rather Arenanet go the direction of Sand Shards on Dune Cloak trait providing alacrity and removing alacrity off mirage clone chaos vortex completely. Then again maybe Arenanet actually considers well chronomancer to be the alacrity provider for mesmer (which it could be outside of condition fights but generally is not) due to the changes slated for May 2.

I highly doubt that Arenanet will allow for clone persistence inline with minions/spirits/elementals/sand shades/pets/jade mech despite the utter lack of power damage coming from them.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[apharma.3741]

On 4/23/2023 at 5:00 PM, ascii.1369 said:

To be fair, the fact that it was changed isn't proof that it was a good change. In my mind they should have never reduced mesmers defining mechanic to little more than shatter ammo. Mirage is currently the only spec that actually uses clones for combat.

 

I will admit that it doesn't work super well for PvE. However, the fix should be to provide better tools for clone management, not to effectively get rid of the mechanic and make it just ammo. There is a lot they could do in terms of how clones work, as well as in terms of active clone management that would improve clone performance in PvE.

I remember when they did and I remember the discussions at the time. Phantasms as they were only worked in a VERY small number of places and even then it was niche and massively outweighed by the places where they flat out were useless. I'm not even talking about how iMage couldn't hit a WALKING target. They didn't work in WvW, they didn't work in any PvE except solo while taking MINUTES to ramp up dps to the levels of other classes and they rarely did more than annoy people in PvP often being shatter fodder.
As for the OP, I think mirage's problem is ambush scaling with clones. I have 0 confidence in a well thought out and well executed fix from ANet so I'll put my lazy dev hat on and say this: Only mirage ambush does anything, clones are purely visual, this allows much easier control over ambush power and can bring back 2nd dodge. 

[Virtuality.8351]

On 4/24/2023 at 2:35 PM, Passerbye.6291 said:

Honestly, just having the illusions not disappear on target death and have them target closest nearby enemy would solve a lot of my frustration with it, but if I recall correctly, they don't want it to be the case, which kinda condemns mirage to be really bad in any kind of multiple target situation.
I really don't mind accounting for their positioning and death as it feels like a part of playing mesmer.

On 4/24/2023 at 8:14 PM, ascii.1369 said:

I can only speak for myself, but short answer: yes.

Well that actually surprised me. I guess I lost faith a bit too early. Though I still feel that my alternative solution kind of half-baked, I have updated my original post with it (with some minor tweaks)

On 4/24/2023 at 8:14 PM, ascii.1369 said:

Since you mentioned shatters being Mesmers core mechanic, let’s start with what I view as Mesmers core mechanic. In terms of class fantasy I would say the essence of Mesmer is to bamboozle the enemy with trickery and illusions, which is implemented in the game through clones + target break + stealth. Shatters to me are just an addition to make the clone mechanic more interesting, not a mechanic in and of itself.

 

If it was up to me, I would radically redesign shatters as utility/defensive cds and compensate in terms of damage by buffing weapon skills and clone damage accordingly. That way the trade-off would be to either keep your clones for damage or sacrifice that damage for defensive/utility purposes as needed.

This is very much how I envision Mesmer's combat style too.

Though I still wish the developers would do something so that players are not disincentivized to use Shatter skills. For me, distraction is what Mesmer Clones primarily about, and therefore the decision to shatter (or not to) should really depend on whether the player wish to keep the clones to aggro and nothing else.

I'd even argue that Shattering should not be presented as something with a significant trade-off for Mirage (i.e., active Clones as source of damage and boons). This is why I came up with the idea that Mirage could use a unique set of Shatter skills, which create a clone near their target if three clones are successfully Shattered.

On 4/24/2023 at 8:14 PM, ascii.1369 said:

Again, yes but not just for mirage. That one I would bake into shatters (since I would rework those anyway as already mentioned). Make f1 a clone redirect on low cd. Probably would still need some additional effect so it would be worth using on a Boss where you have the same target for a long time. Maybe something like: redirect clones to this target, while clones that are already on this target do X. This way you could just redirect clones to a higher health target before the old one dies.
Also, with a dedicated clone redirect on f1, clones probably just shouldn’t despawn while you’re in combat. If a clone loses its target it just waits until you redirect it.

I think this is a very good idea. Although I'd tweak it a bit:

• Mirage Shatter skills redirect their clones to the target selected by the player.
• Mirage Shatter skills generate a clone at their target if three clones are shattered (successfully or not).

So basically, you still shatter your clones with all your Shatter skills. Meanwhile, by getting one Clone back, you still in effect 'redirect' one active clone to a new target.

On 4/25/2023 at 1:36 AM, Gesbo.6420 said:

Staff staff mirage has a ridiculous amount of clone generation in pve with the 2 phantams, phase retreat and the trait that allows you to summon clones on deception skills. The flow of the build is basically casting your phantasms, generating 3 clones shattering then before the phantasms turn into clones and fill the gaps in generation with jaunt. And with you basically always dodging you are permenantly having your clones avoid damage of any kind. 

Yes! That's pretty much the standard rotation and it works pretty well in a more controlled encounters.

However, there are also some less controlled encounters, where players have difficulty to maintain 3 active clones, let alone shattering them, even with already abundant clone generation with Staff/Staff...which leads to Infusion's suggestion:

On 4/25/2023 at 7:46 AM, Infusion.7149 said:

...the biggest change that would improve dealing with trash mobs without a full overhaul would be dropping phantasmal warlock cooldown significantly if the target dies. Axe has a lower cooldown of 6.4 to 8 seconds and Lingering Thoughts (clone generation) is an ammo skill.

Personally, I would even take it one step further to make the cooldown reduction unconditional. A baseline 10 s cooldown (8 s traited and 6.4 s traited with Alacrity, which should be self-sufficient) in PvE really would not break anything and could make a significant QoL difference.

On 4/25/2023 at 7:46 AM, Infusion.7149 said:

If mirage is to be a solid alacrity provider outside of raids/strikes then you really need the clone reliance to be removed and for other weapons to work besides staff...

...I would rather Arenanet go the direction of Sand Shards on Dune Cloak trait providing alacrity and removing alacrity off mirage clone chaos vortex completely.

I actually think this is the correct way to go. Personally, I never like the idea of double slotting the same type of weapon (Staff/Staff) and even less so when such setup becomes optimal under the current design. This will open up more active gameplay and less stale rotation for Mirage players.

On 4/27/2023 at 4:46 AM, apharma.3741 said:

Only mirage ambush does anything, clones are purely visual, this allows much easier control over ambush power and can bring back 2nd dodge. 

This together with my original proposal could work. It would be the player character who does the scaled-up Ambush while the clones doing just 1 point direct damage and nothing else while performing the same animation as the player character. I've updated my proposal and it now reads as following:

Change how Infinite Horizon works. The trait now instead applies the following effect:

• Whenever Mirage generates a Clone, they gain one stack of Infiinite Horizon (special effect) for 10 seconds. (Max. 3 stacks)
• Boons, Conditions & Crowd Control of all Ambush skills now scale with how many stacks of Infiinite Horizon (special effect) Mirage has.

To make sure that Mirage Clones still serve as good distraction/decoy to their opponent:

• Mirage Clones perform the ambush skill action when Mirage gain Mirage Cloak but only do 1 point direct damage without additional effect. (Baseline, with or with out Infinite Horizon)

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Thank you all for your feedback! I did my best to incorporate everyone's idea and hope the developers see our discussion here!

Edited April 28, 2023 by Virtuality.8351