5/2 Untamed changes were irresponsibly incomplete

[Flapjackson.1596]

Untamed was a problematic design due to the entire spec revolving around one GM trait: Fervent Force. This was not a secret, and everyone expected Anet to tackle a rework of the spec. What we didn’t expect was a half-hearted tuning adjustment to nerf the damage numbers of the spec. 
 

I understand that June 27th will see a larger patch with more robust changes to class balance. This doesn’t mean it makes sense to implement damage nerfs to “stave off” problematic builds, particularly not when it punches down on specs that already have abysmal play rates. Nobody can honestly tell me Untamed damage was itself the issue when far more popular builds are also presenting competitive damage.

 

CD reduction is shaky ground to design a GM trait around. If the skills are tuned for it, then they underperform without the trait. It doesn’t create a choice. If CD reduction should remain, it should be baked into a minor trait baseline and only work with Untamed skills. This is the type of change I’d like to see in June. I don’t want to see Anet behaving as if the current design is such a huge problem that it can’t wait until June.

 

Problematic build design should be addressed properly and in full. When you do a half-measure on an already underplayed spec, you don’t fix a serious problem to the game. All you do is make a minority of players work with a hamstrung, poorly-designed build for the next two months instead of a poorly-designed build with good damage. 
 

My suggestion is revert the Untamed changes so the handful of players using it can enjoy their spec until June, then give it a legitimate and thorough addressing. 

[Aaron Forestman.4758]

This is exactly correct, but with how few people have actually put in the time to get good at Untamed, Anet is very unlikely to prioritize making the spec playable over their desire to nerf any full dps builds capable of providing alac or quickness.

[Flapjackson.1596]

35 minutes ago, Aaron Forestman.4758 said:

This is exactly correct, but with how few people have actually put in the time to get good at Untamed, Anet is very unlikely to prioritize making the spec playable over their desire to nerf any full dps builds capable of providing alac or quickness.

I won’t even fault them for taking a stab at dps boon supports doing as much damage as full dps builds. It should have happened in June with a proper rework though. Firebrand is fair game since it’s design wise much more sound and just needs numbers tuning. Alacrity untamed is hardly a threat to the game right now even with high damage considering how few people play it.

[Beddo.1907]

Honestly they should've just removed FF from the game.
It would result in less complaining about the most obvious nerf, since pre multi-nerf Sic'em.

Edit: Like I said before, they probably nerfed it now so we get used to it, since it's going to be nerfed anyway. (Looks like they want to keep it, which is wierd, but I'd let them cook with this one.)

Edited May 4, 2023 by Beddo.1907

[Flapjackson.1596]

7 minutes ago, Beddo.1907 said:

Honestly they should've just removed FF from the game.
It would result in less complaining about the most obvious nerf, since pre multi-nerf Sic'em.

Edit: Like I said before, they probably nerfed it now so we get used to it, since it's going to be nerfed anyway. (Looks like they want to keep it, which is wierd, but I'd let them cook with this one.)

I’m totally fine with not going with CD reduction as a profession gimmick. I just don’t approve of the “middle ground” they chose where it’s still busted design but does significantly worse damage for two months until they actually fix it. Nobody wins here.

[enkeny.6937]

2 hours ago, Flapjackson.1596 said:

I’m totally fine with not going with CD reduction as a profession gimmick. I just don’t approve of the “middle ground” they chose where it’s still busted design but does significantly worse damage for two months until they actually fix it. Nobody wins here.

Actually the "win" here is data collecting.

They have this ~2 months to see what happens if it is only number changes.
I hope they will see, that alacrity uptime doesn't change much. The rotation needs some time to memorise the new cc rotation (only a hammer #5 in a good place), but what I see is: you can still go full berserker and alac uptime can still be ok. 

So after this "testing time", I hope they realise this is not a solution.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

This isn't new, they did the same thing with OWP and MH axe in PVE.  Essentially OWP is useless in PvE while MH axe is insane, and in competitive OWP is great and MH axe is mid at best.  

Same with FF.  In PvE it is now significantly worse, but PvE was the only place it was used anyway.  In competitive not worth it since most skills are low CD or have built in refresh (i.e. Hilt Bash => Maul), so no reason for FF.  

A part of me wishes certain elites were split by mode, which would give more incentive to go between them and get rid of this having to balance around everything approach.  As Untamed is very, very clearly a competitive spec--trying to shoehorn it into PvE is bad because of the piano rotation to get even decent DPS.  

[xXxOrcaxXx.9328]

I guess the reason the nerf went out is to assess the power of Untamed without Fervent Force dominating, so they can then bring the rest of the spec up to their standard. They broke it to see how bad it ends up being, so they'll know how much they need to improve it.

[Aaron Forestman.4758]

On 5/4/2023 at 4:07 PM, Flapjackson.1596 said:

I won’t even fault them for taking a stab at dps boon supports doing as much damage as full dps builds. It should have happened in June with a proper rework though. Firebrand is fair game since it’s design wise much more sound and just needs numbers tuning. Alacrity untamed is hardly a threat to the game right now even with high damage considering how few people play it.

No profession does as much damage while on a boon support build as it can do on a full dps build. An expert player playing boon support and matching the dps of someone who barely knows what their skills do is not an issue, it's just natural.

On 5/4/2023 at 10:32 PM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

This isn't new, they did the same thing with OWP and MH axe in PVE.  Essentially OWP is useless in PvE while MH axe is insane, and in competitive OWP is great and MH axe is mid at best.  

Same with FF.  In PvE it is now significantly worse, but PvE was the only place it was used anyway.  In competitive not worth it since most skills are low CD or have built in refresh (i.e. Hilt Bash => Maul), so no reason for FF.  

A part of me wishes certain elites were split by mode, which would give more incentive to go between them and get rid of this having to balance around everything approach.  As Untamed is very, very clearly a competitive spec--trying to shoehorn it into PvE is bad because of the piano rotation to get even decent DPS.  

Competitive modes in this game are a joke, and Anet is clearly trying to make sure there are no specs that are exclusive to pvp/wvw (see spellbreaker getting actual numbers in pve for the first time in years). Like it or not, the game is made for pve and then neutered for pvp/wvw. OWP remains a solid part of a soulbeast's pve rotation, whether they're stance sharing or not. Taking it in pvp is a mistake, and in wvw it'll account for only a tiny boost to squad damage. Competitive mode considerations have nothing to do with this thread since FF was already useless in there (2 second cooldown reduction).

[Gotejjeken.1267]

8 hours ago, Aaron Forestman.4758 said:

OWP remains a solid part of a soulbeast's pve rotation, whether they're stance sharing or not. Taking it in pvp is a mistake, and in wvw it'll account for only a tiny boost to squad damage.

 

???

Sic 'Em Soulbeast Build (PvP) - Hardstuck

(Same build appliest to WvW as Ranger has no zerg build aside from double bear / bear/turtle full heal druid)

But, if by 'tiny boost' you mean the countless threads about getting insta-gibbed off a node or warclaw that directly lead to the rise in projectile hate, then sure.  

Edited May 8, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267