Will Scourge Ever Be Fixed?

[Zex Anthon.8673]

33 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Looking at what you write, you want a support class with glass canon damage output and tank like survivability in competitive modes. So you basically want to unleash onto PvP players a "class" with high amount of boon hate, high area denial potential, realtively good condition output, some amount of support and bunker like survivability. Should I add stealth and mobility, maybe change punishments into traps in order to bring yet another "superior rune of the trapper is OP" wave of threads?

 

I didn't say any of that, you are literally putting words in my mouth. If you bothered reading my comment you would realize the change I proposed would further split Scourge into two distinct roles, support or dps. If Shades healed allies instead of stiking enemies when using a shade skill your damage plummets. Which is the point.

Increasing the barrier output on Scourge hardly puts it in the "bunker" category. Its not like you can chain blocks, evades, and invulns. Sand Cascade currently provides less than 1000 barrier every 12s. That's practically useless. If it provided 6000 barrier every 12s instead, you would have a reasonable defense being able to block 1 attack every 12s. You are still vulnerable to being focused, still vulnerable to CC, still vulnerable to high mobility. None of that screams "tank like suvivability" to me.

[Dadnir.5038]

2 hours ago, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

I didn't say any of that, you are literally putting words in my mouth. If you bothered reading my comment you would realize the change I proposed would further split Scourge into two distinct roles, support or dps. If Shades healed allies instead of stiking enemies when using a shade skill your damage plummets. Which is the point.

Increasing the barrier output on Scourge hardly puts it in the "bunker" category. Its not like you can chain blocks, evades, and invulns. Sand Cascade currently provides less than 1000 barrier every 12s. That's practically useless. If it provided 6000 barrier every 12s instead, you would have a reasonable defense being able to block 1 attack every 12s. You are still vulnerable to being focused, still vulnerable to CC, still vulnerable to high mobility. None of that screams "tank like suvivability" to me.

You surely don't realize it but by investing into healing power, you achieve slightly higher amount of barrier output than you did with scourge before they nerfed barrier at EoD launch. Knowing this and the fact that competitives modes were complaining about scourge's survivability pre-EoD, it is difficult to take seriously your claim that scourge lack in survivability.

Dagger#2 + Blood Bank is already potentially 3k heal/barrier every 5 seconds without healing power. Your wishes for 6k barrier every 12 seconds is already on sight. Dagger off hand offer you blind on a 12 second CD as well (which is equivalent to an attack nullified every 12s). Feed from corruption can allow you to make your's the aegis of you foe (an you got quite a few skill available to proc this trait that do not have any ICD). I'm sure you know that you do have the option to slot well of darkness as well, right?

To me, you just appear as someone that want in-built survivability with 0 investment or even tweak to your gameplay. You are obsessed by the weaknesses of the necromancer and it's e-specs to the point that you don't seem to be aware of it's strengths. The only thing that you have to do is to identify those strength and capitalize on them by building and playing around them.

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

I didn't say any of that, you are literally putting words in my mouth. If you bothered reading my comment you would realize the change I proposed would further split Scourge into two distinct roles, support or dps. If Shades healed allies instead of stiking enemies when using a shade skill your damage plummets. Which is the point.

The problem here is that this suggestion is unbelievable because you talk about not having enough survival to burst people or use AoE in your other posts. You don't see the contradiction of your 'suggestion' here against some of the complaints you are making? I think many of us do.

The other part of the problem is that your 'suggestion' doesn't actually fix ANY of the complaints you have made in multiple threads either. It all comes across as a highly misdirected assessment of the situation. 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Seuchenherbst.2746]

9 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

What you want just isn't inline with how Scourge  is designed. Scourge cannot output enough barrier/healing to keep itself alive? That doesn't mean there is a problem here. I guess you didn't consider that outputting enough barrier/healing to keep itself alive, let alone it's team mates is really not it's intended function, given the changes the spec has gone through.

lol, "you don't get it, the class isn't supposed to survive! and for no clearly stated reason that's totally ok!"

lmao even

 

7 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

So you basically want to unleash onto PvP players a "class" with high amount of boon hate, high area denial potential, realtively good condition output, some amount of support and bunker like survivability. Should I add stealth and mobility (...) ?

Bruh, Specter already exists.

[Seuchenherbst.2746]

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

You surely don't realize it but by investing into healing power, you achieve slightly higher amount of barrier output than you did with scourge before they nerfed barrier at EoD launch. Knowing this and the fact that competitives modes were complaining about scourge's survivability pre-EoD, it is difficult to take seriously your claim that scourge lack in survivability.

Dagger#2 + Blood Bank is already potentially 3k heal/barrier every 5 seconds without healing power. Your wishes for 6k barrier every 12 seconds is already on sight. Dagger off hand offer you blind on a 12 second CD as well (which is equivalent to an attack nullified every 12s). Feed from corruption can allow you to make your's the aegis of you foe (an you got quite a few skill available to proc this trait that do not have any ICD). I'm sure you know that you do have the option to slot well of darkness as well, right?

To me, you just appear as someone that want in-built survivability with 0 investment or even tweak to your gameplay. You are obsessed by the weaknesses of the necromancer and it's e-specs to the point that you don't seem to be aware of it's strengths. The only thing that you have to do is to identify those strength and capitalize on them by building and playing around them.

oh boy! here we go again. see my standard reply:

On 4/9/2023 at 8:18 PM, Seuchenherbst.2746 said:

I read in this thread the same merry-go-round of tired arguments we always have in these necro threads. Like a clockwork.

It starts with a valid complaint about some intrinsic drawbacks necromancer has compared to other classes in the game.

This usually provokes a comment like "akshually, necro strong! you just have to..." followed by a laundry list of conditions to actually make this somehow work.

With this, the respondent oddly thinks he has actually adequately adressed the initial complaint, while he actually proved the point of the complainer: "when X and Y and Z, and when running this utility and this trait using this rune and when you got a tree to hide behind, then it's no problem (in about 50% of cases)". Do you guys see that this is not making the point you are trying to make?

 

[Obtena.7952]

24 minutes ago, Seuchenherbst.2746 said:

Bruh, Specter already exists.

Sure ... and Specter existence has nothing to do with what Scourge does.

BUT, if you think Specter is what you are looking for, because it 'exists' ... feel free to choose that and play it. Certainly, the existence of Specter is completely irrelevant in what you think Scourge should be though.

I mean, you say deficiencies are a valid thing to complain about. That's a pretty weird position considering Anet has told us they intend for things to have them. 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Seuchenherbst.2746]

26 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure ... and Specter existence has nothing to do with what Scourge does.

If you re-read my previous post carefully, you will discover two things: I) I was replying to completely different person and the point they were trying to make and II) me bringing up Specter was a joke based on the quote I was referring to.

Overall, it appears you have nothing really constructive to add and your points alternate between "everything is fine as it is and is totally 100% intended that way by the infallible devs" (then why do we get balance updates, btw?) and "just play other class then!" Wow, what incredible insight. I bet nobody ever thought of that option before! you think maybe anet should make a tutorial for players showing them that they can, in fact, change classes?

Why even post if that's all you got to say?

inb4 "but you didn't post anything constructive either!"

[Obtena.7952]

42 minutes ago, Seuchenherbst.2746 said:

... your points alternate between "everything is fine as it is and is totally 100% intended that way by the infallible devs" (then why do we get balance updates, btw?) and "just play other class then!" Wow, what incredible insight.

Apparently it is incredible insight because even though what I'm saying SHOULD be obvious, SOMEHOW we still get threads where people complain about deficiencies that we have been TOLD aren't necessarily unintended by Anet and where the same people forget they have to make choices according to what they want to accomplish in the game. The fact that these deficiencies exist is NOT enough of a reason to claim they need to be fixed. I mean, why we get balance updates? Check the patch notes. Nothing I said contradicts the existence of balance patches. 

Again, if a spec isn't working for someone in a certain situation, they have choices and they have to live with whatever deficiencies exist on the choices they eventually land on. These aren't problems with the game that Anet needs to fix. 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[NekoNoKoi.9137]

After years of maining necro, I can finally confirm that some of y'all play this kitten class for the sole reason that you're masochists. "Noooooo don't buff me, I like it rough! Pls daddy anet I love it when I get bonked around like a bowling ball because I have a fat ONE stack of stab on scourge! If you don't like endless suffering, go play something else, baka!!!"

[Nefras.7314]

15 hours ago, Somnolent.6379 said:

For WvW: Here's an example build (I use this with some tweaks): http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PSABc2tjlNweYesPmJW0TevcA-zxQYhoAqRO%2FhkpEoXlQNjArNL6fWBA-e

And here's it in action (played by a better player than me!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y22eM3ifujM

 

I mean lets face it even core necro is better than that build. But aye if you want to solo roam on scourge that badly not much you can do. 

[Zex Anthon.8673]

18 hours ago, Somnolent.6379 said:

For WvW: Here's an example build (I use this with some tweaks): http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PSABc2tjlNweYesPmJW0TevcA-zxQYhoAqRO%2FhkpEoXlQNjArNL6fWBA-e

And here's it in action (played by a better player than me!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y22eM3ifujM

 

One thing that I notice with all these outnumbered videos is how bad the opponents are. The only time the scourge faced a real threat was at 10:30 and they literally had 3 supports.

Anybody can cherry pick gameplay footage to make a class look OP.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Scourge could stand to have their punishment skills looked at, too many aren't worth taking and they've kinda fallen out of meta overall with how slow the ramp-up they have is with lower DPS than other condi specs now. 

[Obtena.7952]

23 hours ago, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

One thing that I notice with all these outnumbered videos is how bad the opponents are. The only time the scourge faced a real threat was at 10:30 and they literally had 3 supports.

Anybody can cherry pick gameplay footage to make a class look OP.

Just like anyone can cherry pick their own gameplay experience to make a class look 'bad' in competitive modes. Works both way bud. How can you be taken seriously if you are just going to ignore other people's experience with the spec just because it contradicts yours?

Edited May 26, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Zex Anthon.8673]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Just like anyone can cherry pick their own gameplay experience to make a class look 'bad' in competitive modes. Works both way bud. How can you be taken seriously if you are just going to ignore other people's experience with the spec just because it contradicts yours?

judging by the responses your comments get. Looks like you're the one no one takes seriously.

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

judging by the responses your comments get. Looks like you're the one no one takes seriously.

Maybe ... but I'm not the one making any claims here. I'm just disputing the premise that you use to maintain the stance that necro is deficient that severely impacts players ability to be successful with it. You simply can't ignore what people are doing ingame with the class to push that narrative. 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Dadnir.5038]

On 5/24/2023 at 11:53 PM, Seuchenherbst.2746 said:

oh boy! here we go again. see my standard reply:

A standard reply based on the assumption that the complain is indeed valid. And that's the issue, what you perceived as a valid complain based on your limited experience might not be a valid complain.

If everyone had the same opinion there would be no meaning for a forum because there wouldn't be anything to argue about. Don't dismiss other player arguments with "standard" reply, maybe if you just tried to change your perspective you could overcome the prejudices that you have and achieve better result with what you think is underpowered.

[Seuchenherbst.2746]

11 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

A standard reply based on the assumption that the complain is indeed valid.

that's where you're wrong, buddy. my reply holds regardless of the merit of the initial complaint.

[Dadnir.5038]

12 hours ago, Seuchenherbst.2746 said:

that's where you're wrong, buddy. my reply holds regardless of the merit of the initial complaint.

The point is that your reply imply that the player shouldn't "go through the laundry list of conditions" and that the initial complaint is valid.

On another hand, the developpers specifically stated that there are intended "holes in the roles" for all professions. Which basically mean that all those profession need to compensate or "go through the laundry list of conditions" in order to achieve results where their own "hole in the roles" lie.

Yes, it's always nice to have new clothes but, ultimately, they will quickly get dirty, so what I'm saying is that you shouldn't dismiss the guy that tell you to do your laundry with a "standard response" that basically say: "It's true that the clothes are dirty and the OP have the right to think that the devs are a free laundry service. All suggestions of having the OP doing his own laundry only deserve a standard response as they aren't worth considering."

[Seuchenherbst.2746]

On 5/27/2023 at 9:40 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

The point is that your reply imply that the player shouldn't "go through the laundry list of conditions"

yes, someone complaining about something not working well on necro (e.g. roaming on scourge) should not receive a myriad of replies stating that it does actually work, once every blue moon, when facing north and chanting a chinese bible backwards while balancing on a unicycle with one leg. oh, and your enemy is actually a pigeon walking over a keyboard. then it works, thus the complaint is invalid.

it's not helpful and a waste of time for all involved.

Quote

and that the initial complaint is valid.

no, not necessarily. my standard reply is just about the standard way in which people react to complaints about necro.

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, Seuchenherbst.2746 said:

yes, someone complaining about something not working well on necro (e.g. roaming on scourge) should not receive a myriad of replies stating that it does actually work

Why not? These are an open forum, not an echo chamber. If some people think there isn't a problem, they have just as much right to voice that opinion as those that do. Is there a problem with Scourge? Maybe, but not because the OP doesn't get to decide how it should work for them. e people that are objecting here are 

We all need to agree that there are intended deficiencies. It's simply not enough for the OP to say "OH deficiencies" and expect people to immediately jump onto some sort of crusade about fixing Scourge.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Seuchenherbst.2746]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Why not? These are an open forum, not an echo chamber. If some people think there isn't a problem, they have just as much right to voice that opinion as those that do. Is there a problem with Scourge? Maybe, but not because the OP doesn't get to decide how it should work for them. 

I noticed you like to cut out the part of a post which actually answers your own question. Re-read what you cut out and you can see your question was already answered.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Seuchenherbst.2746 said:

I noticed you like to cut out the part of a post which actually answers your own question. Re-read what you cut out and you can see your question was already answered.

I totally did cut it out, because that's just you trying to be sensational and no, it didn't answer the question because it is rhetorical. The answer to the question is that it's completely reasonable for people to post their objections related to a complaint in an open forum.

The people that are posting here, for or against the state of Scourge, are doing so based on their game experience. Therefore, no one should convince themselves there shouldn't be a myriad of replies stating that it does actually work because for some people it does work. Even if it doesn't work, that's not a problem because not every spec needs to work in every situation that players want to use it in. 

TLDR: The "this one spec doesn't work for me in this thing I want to do" is not something Anet needs to fix. 

That's the core problem with these threads. The OP thinks his experience is THE standard for how Scourge performs for everyone, except it's not so he needs to be ready to defend his suggestion or complaint. The best Anet can do is make choices available so there is variety in how people can play. From there, people need to make a choice that is BEST for them based on the criteria that's important to them. 

OP can't find something that works for him IN Necro so he can be more successful in PVP or WVW or PVE? That's a L2P or 'bad choices' issue because there are 8 other classes, each wtih 3 specs and within those, it's very likely there is an optimal gamestyle for the OP to use.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Seuchenherbst.2746]

On 5/28/2023 at 5:35 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

I totally did cut it out, because [...] it didn't answer the question because it is rhetorical. The answer to the question is that it's completely reasonable for people to post their objections related to a complaint in an open forum.

below you can find the part of my post you chose not to quote. reminder to other readers that I was answering why people should not regurgitate the same tired comment whenever someone criticizes something about the necro class.

Quote

it's not helpful and a waste of time for all involved.

I literally had to spell it out for you.

Btw, it did not escape my notice that the mods keep removing new posts made in this thread. let's see if mine stays up.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Seuchenherbst.2746 said:

I was answering why people should not regurgitate the same tired comment whenever someone criticizes something about the necro class.

... and the answer didn't make sense because people are free to discuss the topic in question, whether they disagree or not; this isn't an echo chamber for people that can't cope or adapt or make good choices. 

Also, if there is a reason people shouldn't regurgitate the same tired comments whenever someone criticizes something, then that reason is ALSO applicable to people not regurgitating the same tired criticisms, including this thread. It works BOTH ways. 

The thread OP ignores something fundamental here:

Choice is a mechanism that Anet has given players to address the problems he is experiencing with the spec. If he doesn't use that choice, it's not an issue Anet needs to fix. Scourge doesn't work in the situation he describes in the way he wants to use it? That's not a problem. It's also absurd the OP ignores the fact that Scourge was nerfed TO this current state BECAUSE of it's oppressive nature for the situations he's complaining about. 

 

Edited June 3, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Zex Anthon.8673]

19 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

... and the answer didn't make sense because people are free to discuss the topic in question, whether they disagree or not; this isn't an echo chamber for people that can't cope or adapt or make good choices. 

Also, if there is a reason people shouldn't regurgitate the same tired comments whenever someone criticizes something, then that reason is ALSO applicable to people not regurgitating the same tired criticisms, including this thread. It works BOTH ways. 

The thread OP ignores something fundamental here:

Choice is a mechanism that Anet has given players to address the problems he is experiencing with the spec. If he doesn't use that choice, it's not an issue Anet needs to fix. Scourge doesn't work in the situation he describes in the way he wants to use it? That's not a problem. It's also absurd the OP ignores the fact that Scourge was nerfed TO this current state BECAUSE of it's oppressive nature for the situations he's complaining about. 

 

Scourge was oppressive because it had Firebrand to carry it. Anet overnerfed Scourge and Firebrand because it was defining the meta for too long, and they didn't have time to fix the problem. So they take away its barrier, remove its damage, and table the spec for a future fix. I made the thread to call out that they haven't addressed the problem and it's been over a year. Scourge hasn't been viable in PvP since the nerfs.

What you seem to ignore is all specs should be viable according to Anet's own balance philosophy. However, using your logic if a class is bad then don't play it. Using your logic the only way to make good choices on Necro is to:

1.  Play with a support
2.  Always bring 3 stun breaks
3.  Don't play Scourge

And if that doesn't work, then go play a different class. This take is so incredibly toxic and completely ignores the grievances of people who like to play specific classes.