Duelist - what features a good duelist build should have?

[anjo.6143]

In your opinion, what a player should bring to battle when assuming the Duelist role ?

[thc enjoyer.4976]

In contesting game modes, the ability to sustain a 1v2 against high tiered players for a short duration. (And live)

In tdm game modes, the ability to mitigate conditions moreso than power. 

Either way a good duelist in guild wars 2 is about not being killable due to the nature of nodes. 

I'd like to see the tdm version in 5v5 format to add a layer of diversity to the build pool, but I don't see it happening - ever. 

Edited May 25, 2023 by thc enjoyer.4976

[Downstate.4697]

You need to be able to stall a node or win your node. That means survivability with condi cleanse and stun break/damage mitigation and also enough damage to get kills. There's s variability in tankiness and overall damage output, but it’s flexibility that makes a duelist good. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1v1 on node? you win node (unless outskilled)

1v2 on node? you lose node (unless skill gap)

You need to get to node? Ok, but you're slower than everyone else EXCEPT bunkers. 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Chainheart.7263]

an eod spec

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@anjo.6143

I'd like to step in here and point out the difference between a Side-Noder and a Duelist. There is a big difference between what makes a Side-Noder good and what makes a Duelist good who is not worried about nodes. A lot of great Duelist builds make bad Side-Noders and a lot of great Side-Noder builds make bad Duelists.

The biggest difference is that the Side-Noder wants & needs to be able to stand on a node and hold it for a very long time before it dies or has to retreat, and he isn't necessarily worried about needing to kill opponents at all because he is primarily worried about point ticks for the team. A Duelist on the other hand, these types of builds are designed for maximum survival rate, even if what equates to that survival is a lot of stealthing & kiting all over the place. This often means that even if the Duelist can surely win an elongated 1v1 on a side node, it isn't worth that 1v1 power if say a Spellbreaker can almost immediately decap him and full cap the node for many point ticks during the process of the Duelist trying to kill the Spellbreaker. Even if the Duelist can win in the end, the +5 points from the Spellbreaker kill is not worth the +50 points the Spellbreaker has acrued while actually standing on that node and defending a cap before he dies. And then of course by the time the Duelist full caps the node, the Spellbreaker is likely off of respawn and headed right back to the node to immediately decap it again. Even if the Duelist wins 4x 1v1s in a row on the far node vs. that Spellbreaker through the full duration of a game, that Spellbreaker is actually beating the Duelist. The Duelist is contributing maybe +20 kill points and maybe another +10 or +15 from short lived holds before the Spellbreaker comes back, but the Spellbreaker is contributing like +200 points to his team because of how long it takes to kill him and get him off the node. So even if the Duelist "FEELS" like he's whooping the Spellbreaker over and over and farming him, it isn't true. The Spellbreaker is actually winning.

What we're looking at here is that Side-Noders are playing to hold nodes for points, and Duelists are really a type of design that is better for 2v2s WvW or the FFA or Custom Arena Duels, where nodes are not an objective. This way, there is no penalty for bouncing around & stealthing & kiting forever to guarantee a kill in the end.

1. What makes a good Side-Noder - The ability to sustain and hold a node without needing to use mechanics that cause decap such as stealth or straight invulns or mass kiting & LOS off node to be able to survive. They need to have mechanics that can stall up and deal with 1v2s, such as Full Counter. They need only enough mobility to be able to monkey around a node for resets. They do not need much chase power for securing kills because this is not their job, and the people who are trying to stop their cap or get them off a cap, will attempt to go into close range with them on the node to do so, which allows a build with otherwise bad chase potential, like Virtuoso, to actually be dangerous on the side node when players are forced to get close to him. This is very different from ->
2. What makes a good Duelist - The fine optimization between having just enough survivability to be able to always reliably escape and reset and come back, while having as much DPS & CC as possible AFTER it has first optimized for just enough survival. It needs to have high damage & control for kill threat opportunity, whether it is from heavy attrition or bursting or both. The other thing is that a good Duelist must be one of the class/build archetypes that actually has strong chase potential to be able to secure kills, otherwise when it faces another good Duelist, that guy will just infinitely kite him with resets. The Duelist doesn't need straight sustain attributes to tank 1v2s while standing in a small area like the Side-Noder. The Duelist only needs mass mobility & disengage potential, which generally is easier to optimize with high DPS & CC. Any time a build tries to go for true face tanky values, it begins to quickly lose either DPS or chase potential, sometimes both.

To sum this up in relation to my first statement in this post: "Great Side-Noders can make bad Duelists, and great Duelists can make bad Side-Noders" what I mean for example is: a Spellbreaker is going to hold a node against a Deadeye in a conquest 5v5. Any time the Spellbreaker leaves the node to LOS for a moment and the DE gets lured to try to go to the node for decap, the Spellbreaker can potentially offense him and get a quick kill or at least push the DE off the node if it wants to survive. However, while dueling in a custom arena or engaging a duel in an open field in WvW, the Spellbreaker will be hard pressed to ever touch the DE even once. In this case the Spellbreaker is a great Side-Noder while the DE is a garbage Side-Noder, but the DE is by far the better Duelist whereas the Spellbreaker completely lacks the mobility to even threaten a kill vs. the DE in a straight no-node duel.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Kuma.1503]

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@anjo.6143

I'd like to step in here and point out the difference between a Side-Noder and a Duelist. There is a big difference between what makes a Side-Noder good and what makes a Duelist good who is not worried about nodes. A lot of great Duelist builds make bad Side-Noders and a lot of great Side-Noder builds make bad Duelists.

The biggest difference is that the Side-Noder wants & needs to be able to stand on a node and hold it for a very long time before it dies or has to retreat, and he isn't necessarily worried about needing to kill opponents at all because he is primarily worried about point ticks for the team. A Duelist on the other hand, these types of builds are designed for maximum survival rate, even if what equates to that survival is a lot of stealthing & kiting all over the place. This often means that even if the Duelist can surely win an elongated 1v1 on a side node, it isn't worth that 1v1 power if say a Spellbreaker can almost immediately decap him and full cap the node for many point ticks during the process of the Duelist trying to kill the Spellbreaker. Even if the Duelist can win in the end, the +5 points from the Spellbreaker kill is not worth the +50 points the Spellbreaker has acrued while actually standing on that node and defending a cap before he dies. And then of course by the time the Duelist full caps the node, the Spellbreaker is likely off of respawn and headed right back to the node to immediately decap it again. Even if the Duelist wins 4x 1v1s in a row on the far node vs. that Spellbreaker through the full duration of a game, that Spellbreaker is actually beating the Duelist. The Duelist is contributing maybe +20 kill points and maybe another +10 or +15 from short lived holds before the Spellbreaker comes back, but the Spellbreaker is contributing like +200 points to his team because of how long it takes to kill him and get him off the node. So even if the Duelist "FEELS" like he's whooping the Spellbreaker over and over and farming him, it isn't true. The Spellbreaker is actually winning.

What we're looking at here is that Side-Noders are playing to hold nodes for points, and Duelists are really a type of design that is better for 2v2s WvW or the FFA or Custom Arena Duels, where nodes are not an objective. This way, there is no penalty for bouncing around & stealthing & kiting forever to guarantee a kill in the end.

1. What makes a good Side-Noder - The ability to sustain and hold a node without needing to use mechanics that cause decap such as stealth or straight invulns or mass kiting & LOS off node to be able to survive. They need to have mechanics that can stall up and deal with 1v2s, such as Full Counter. They need only enough mobility to be able to monkey around a node for resets. They do not need much chase power for securing kills because this is not their job, and the people who are trying to stop their cap or get them off a cap, will attempt to go into close range with them on the node to do so, which allows a build with otherwise bad chase potential, like Virtuoso, to actually be dangerous on the side node when players are forced to get close to him. This is very different from ->
2. What makes a good Duelist - The fine optimization between having just enough survivability to be able to always reliably escape and reset and come back, while having as much DPS & CC as possible AFTER it has first optimized for just enough survival. It needs to have high damage & control for kill threat opportunity, whether it is from heavy attrition or bursting or both. The other thing is that a good Duelist must be one of the class/build archetypes that actually has strong chase potential to be able to secure kills, otherwise when it faces another good Duelist, that guy will just infinitely kite him with resets. The Duelist doesn't need straight sustain attributes to tank 1v2s while standing in a small area like the Side-Noder. The Duelist only needs mass mobility & disengage potential, which generally is easier to optimize with high DPS & CC. Any time a build tries to go for true face tanky values, it begins to quickly lose either DPS or chase potential, sometimes both.

To sum this up in relation to my first statement in this post: "Great Side-Noders can make bad Duelists, and great Duelists can make bad Side-Noders" what I mean for example is: a Spellbreaker is going to hold a node against a Deadeye in a conquest 5v5. Any time the Spellbreaker leaves the node to LOS for a moment and the DE gets lured to try to go to the node for decap, the Spellbreaker can potentially offense him and get a quick kill or at least push the DE off the node if it wants to survive. However, while dueling in a custom arena or engaging a duel in an open field in WvW, the Spellbreaker will be hard pressed to ever touch the DE even once. In this case the Spellbreaker is a great Side-Noder while the DE is a garbage Side-Noder, but the DE is by far the better Duelist whereas the Spellbreaker completely lacks the mobility to even threaten a kill vs. the DE in a straight no-node duel.

Great post. 

Tl;dr for people who aint got time to read. 

Duelists - Optmized to win 1vX. Builds just enough survivability to perform it's role while also having enough pressure and mobility to secure kills. Not optimized to hold nodes. Best suited to WvW, 2v2, 3v3. Not always good in conquest. 

Sidenoders - Optimized to A-Pose menacingly on node hold node for as long as possible. Prioritizes survivability to survive/stall 1vX for as long as possible. Losing the 1v1 in the long run is acceptable if you're superior at holding the node. You can pull in more points from holding node than they get from killing you. 

Avoids mechanics that cause node to decap like full invuln or the need to kite to survive. Best suited to Conquest. Usually not suited for 2v2, 3v3, WvW, or FFA. 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Kuma.1503