DPS druid- why does CA have 5 different condis??

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

While I get what they were going for with some of the conditions- such as vuln on CA 1- why are there 5 unique condis?

 

Make them all burning. Or bleeding. Or poison. Or maybe 3 bleeding 2 burning or something. But don't make there be 5 unique ones.

[Acheron.1580]

Thematically, and linguistically more pleasing, the effects of eclipse and blood moon should be swapped and blood moon should be doing all bleed and/or burn effects.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Acheron.1580

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

51 minutes ago, Acheron.1580 said:

Thematically, and linguistically more pleasing, the effects of eclipse and blood moon should be swapped and blood moon should be doing all bleed and/or burn effects.

Yeah, but we need to see a better, offensive CA. If this isn't the case already, I'd be in favor of seeing CA lose all its healing when the trait is taken in favor of more powerful condis.

 

Also like someone else mentioned, give staff condis.

[kiwituatara.6053]

Nope. Having different types of condis is much better then a lot of a single type of condis.

 

Also nope. Don’t want to see condi staff. I rather see power staff.

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

28 minutes ago, kiwituatara.6053 said:

Nope. Having different types of condis is much better then a lot of a single type of condis.

 

Also nope. Don’t want to see condi staff. I rather see power staff.

2 of the 5 don't help it offensively

1 of the 5 would help it offensively if the skill didn't already do a daze which interacts with trait changes

 

I can understand having poison and burning, but immob is nearly useless and the chill and vuln are pretty useless. Give CA4 a damaging condi, at least.

 

Power staff makes no sense when Druid is going to be getting a condi DPS set of traits. None of the traits favor power in any way.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

54 minutes ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

2 of the 5 don't help it offensively

1 of the 5 would help it offensively if the skill didn't already do a daze which interacts with trait changes

 

I can understand having poison and burning, but immob is nearly useless and the chill and vuln are pretty useless. Give CA4 a damaging condi, at least.

 

Power staff makes no sense when Druid is going to be getting a condi DPS set of traits. None of the traits favor power in any way.

Right, and no one is going to stand in CA to spam condis.  

They slapped on 5 different condis as they have no idea what they are doing in terms of balance.  I say this unironically, because I really want to see a dev stand in CA form spamming #1 to get some vuln when there tons of better ways on Ranger alone to get vuln.  

We HAD a very viable condition build in bleed/immob, that got replaced with random condis all in the name of and I quote 'creating a viable DPS build for Druid'.

Which...I agree none of this is power druid focused; maybe they meant condi dps, but 1s of burning per pulse on CA #5 for instance isn't going to do nearly as much as ancient seeds did, and you are also rooted while using it.  The only component that has power--the ending burst--, they didn't buff...

Anyway, #5 is the only viable damage source I can see here.  CMC mentions #2 for damage because it has poison, but I'm guessing the poison occurs on seed blast, which means you still have to combo it and you can't stack the poison to get the damage...

There is definitely a reason this wasn't showed off on a golem at all, and only the tooltip discussed.

EDIT: Also, yes, staff is a MUCH better place to put these random condis.  Seriously, vuln on the auto (3 stack every 5 sec or something as even then no one is going to auto to get vuln), AoE poison on #2, burning on #3, and #4 already has immob.  If they wanted to go all out then reflect or something on #5 but it's perfect really as-is.  

Edited June 10, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[WhoWantsAHug.3186]

1 hour ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

I can understand having poison and burning, but immob is nearly useless and the chill and vuln are pretty useless. Give CA4 a damaging condi, at least.

Ok so the immob is actually good. If you take that one new tier one trait, immob also applies bleed. So does daze, meaning you should get two applications of bleed with that skill. The immob also helps to land more ticks of natural convergence and I'm assuming every tick of convergence will apply burning. The immob also combos with Jacaranda immob nicely and you can even use immob as your last skill to combo it into a weapon skill, or even Entangle(Glyph of Stars is way better though). 

Chill on 4 skill also sounds pretty kittening good. It's kinda like a double defense tool where you chill a foe while you're healing yourself. I think it goes without saying that druid has way too much healing to not take advantage of, so you should be running condi dmg plus healing power. I'll be trying out sages ammy in PvP.

We will have to wait and see how strong that new tier one condi trait will be. I could definitely see people running staff on condi builds if the bleed on immob is strong. So staff will add a little extra damage while providing self sustain and some team support. Condi druid should be played as a hybrid IMO. 

Edited June 10, 2023 by WhoWantsAHug.3186

[kiwituatara.6053]

1 hour ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

2 of the 5 don't help it offensively

1 of the 5 would help it offensively if the skill didn't already do a daze which interacts with trait changes

 

I can understand having poison and burning, but immob is nearly useless and the chill and vuln are pretty useless. Give CA4 a damaging condi, at least.

 

Power staff makes no sense when Druid is going to be getting a condi DPS set of traits. None of the traits favor power in any way.

The more condis you put on the harder it is for them to cleanse the offensive ones. Immob is nowhere in the realms of near useless. Chill is a good undervalued condi. Vulnerability stacking is ok in most builds, but I do find it amazing in cele builds.

 

Most condi builds are tanky, having a condi weapon set plus staff that supports and deals condis at the same time sound imbalanced. That’s why I would prefer power staff buff. But we’ll see now that ancient seeds is finally gone maybe condi staff is needed to boost condi Druid builds. There’s often smaller balance patch to smooth things over from a large balance patch.

[Lazze.9870]

4 hours ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

2 of the 5 don't help it offensively

1 of the 5 would help it offensively if the skill didn't already do a daze which interacts with trait changes

 

I can understand having poison and burning, but immob is nearly useless and the chill and vuln are pretty useless. Give CA4 a damaging condi, at least.

 

Power staff makes no sense when Druid is going to be getting a condi DPS set of traits. None of the traits favor power in any way.

Something called cover condis and utility. Or are you pve only?

Power staff makes perfect sense because the weapon is a support weapon, the only one we have. Don't clutter it with pointless damage condis.

You have axe, shortbow, torch, off-hand dagger and even sword that work with different condi builds.

---

It's the same usual suspects that complain about changes. Anet has been SPOT ON with the druid changes the last year. Good ranger players recognise that.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Lazze.9870

[Gotejjeken.1267]

8 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

Something called cover boons and utility. Or are you pve only?

Power staff makes perfect sense because the weapon is a support weapon, the only one we have. Don't clutter it with pointless damage condis.

You have axe, shortbow, torch, off-hand dagger and even sword that work with different condi builds.

---

It's the same usual suspects that complain about changes. Anet has been SPOT ON with the druid changes the last year. Good ranger players recognise that.

You mean cover condis....right?

I have yet to meet these so called 'good players' that agree with all the pigeonholing to support Druid has been getting...sounds more like shilling.

Power makes zero sense on Druid, it doesn't have the modifiers for it, nor is it built in any way for it.  Even anet with its trashfire balancing realizes this as they're adding rando condis to CA skills, not scaling the power up on it.  They in fact didn't scale the power on anything Druid related in these upcoming patch notes, that should tell you something.

And no, before it gets brought up, random might generation on a few skills doesn't mean 'power related' as might works with conditions too.  

[Lazze.9870]

36 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

You mean cover condis....right?

I have yet to meet these so called 'good players' that agree with all the pigeonholing to support Druid has been getting...sounds more like shilling.

Power makes zero sense on Druid, it doesn't have the modifiers for it, nor is it built in any way for it.  Even anet with its trashfire balancing realizes this as they're adding rando condis to CA skills, not scaling the power up on it.  They in fact didn't scale the power on anything Druid related in these upcoming patch notes, that should tell you something.

And no, before it gets brought up, random might generation on a few skills doesn't mean 'power related' as might works with conditions too.  

Obviously. Mobile screwing me over.

Most of the Druid changes over the last few months have been pretty spot on. Not perfect or everything I asked for, but a massive improvement to kitten state of support Druid in particular. And it is not any weaker in a damage role than what it was 1 year ago. A role which every single other ranger spec also can do.

Marksmanship power Druid with greatsword and longbow/staff is a good roamer build. And it still will be after the changes.

Condi Druid is still usable. Even functional with that condi lacking staff on swap.

Support Druid has improved massively in both pvp and wvw compared to what it was. That's an undisputable fact. And we didn't even lose the immob spam build in the process.

Staff is a support weapon, end of story. The power component on it doesn't make it more of a power weapon than any other weapon in the game. You also have plenty of weapon options for condis if you're going the condi route. Ask for improvements on torch instead, that's an _actual_ condition weapon that currently stinks.

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Lazze.9870

[Gotejjeken.1267]

14 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

Obviously. Mobile screwing me over.

Most of the Druid changes over the last few months have been pretty spot on. Not perfect or everything I asked for, but a massive improvement to kitten state of support Druid in particular. And it is not any weaker in a damage role than what it was 1 year ago. A role which every single other ranger spec also can do.

It's a support weapon. You have plenty of weapon options for condis if you're going the condi route. Ask for improvements on torch instead, that's an actual condition weapon that currently stinks.

 

At some level I think we agree--I'm coming from the point of CA is defense/support and really shouldn't have random condis and your point is staff is pure support outside the kiting ability it gives and shouldn't have condis.

I think they'd be better on the staff as at least you can use that offensively, trying to use CA offensively is almost always a death sentence unless you are combo'ing into ancient seeds, which now isn't a thing.  

If staff #3 did burning instead of CA #5, you could use it offensively to burn while also healing, or defensively to just kite / heal (similar to ele's burning speed).  For CA #5 you have to go in the middle of whatever and start channeling...sure a lot of times it works but more often than not you get dogpiled by staying in the channel too long.  

I also don't think we have plenty of other condi weapon options if you are listing torch as an option then saying it stinks.  As the only other (pure) one outside that is dagger and both MH and OH have some serious issues...for instance OH they never did bother increasing the evade range after getting rid of OH Training like 6-7 years ago.  

I'd also argue Druid is directly weaker in condi damage by the sharpening stone nerf alone--yes, it's the same stacks but not the same uptime.  These changes continue that but obliterate the bleed build. 

Anyway, at a base level if I personally want a condi spam build I'll just go condi soulbeast.  You get practically every one with way better damage when merged and now better immob thanks to prelude lash.  With the addition of slow to MH dagger it really could just be a straight upgrade as the only thing druid had was the immob/bleed build and any way you cut it this general purpose condi they are moving towards is serving no one.  

[kiwituatara.6053]

Heck I think its fine we disagree whether Staff should be condi or power weapon. But it does need a buff. I'd be happy with just adding evade on staff#3, reduced cast to staff#2 at this point (or a rework to staff#2).

 

One thing I'm excited to see the new Lingering Light. Maybe it'll compensate a bit for losing Ancient Seeds.

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

4 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

Something called cover condis and utility. Or are you pve only?

Power staff makes perfect sense because the weapon is a support weapon, the only one we have.

These changes have specifically been made to help PvE DPS druid. The utility also just isn't really there to begin with. Chill? Vuln? Pretty mid even as a cover condi in pvp, and we already have access to those.

 

I'm not saying fully remove the healing. But make it an actual WEAPON when traited, not a rubber chicken you can heal with.

[anduriell.6280]

Just to clarify this but if i didn't get it wrong in the stream: support build, healing build and dps buils are not meant to mix together. 

I believe that is very deliberate choice from anet devs to we don't end up with a bunker condi druid nightmare. So i would not expect them to change that. Ane there is plenty of good reasons for it. 

Staff not being touched by the trait is unfortunate thou. I understand there is a lot of balance problems with how the beam works and the fact that is a 1200 which pierces and cannot be reflected so in understand that maybe in this round changes to that weapon are not considered. 

Let's see how the Condi druid with shortbow behaves and then maybe we really need condi on the staff. Keep in mind with blood moon Vine surge will apply bleeds. 

However the GMs is what we needed for the druid: Lingering light may allow the druid to stay in avatar 100% (or very close) which is the main complain on why Druid can not compete with other supports.

Druid should provide other utility / AoE damage with the spirits too including the spirit revival. I really hope anet devs didn't butchered the spirits with the change thou, as this could open the doors for an actual support build. 

Now: Being able to Perma-Hiding the pets would be fantastic (without any bonuses) for WvW and most PvE open world maps. Having access to Untamed F1-F3 (with the auto thing)  in core would also help lots for pets control and balance. 

For example: Turtle would be reasonable pet to use with a Healing or Support druid in small scale. IF we could disable the pet from using the snap and slam in auto  and just use the canon it would help miles regarding the utility of the pet. 

Big scale we definitely need to stow the pet and keep it hidden unfortunately.