Scrapper won't really be able to apply quickness outside of combat after the update

[WipZedKay.5316]

A thought that occurred to me is that you won't really be able to give yourself quickness outside of combat in an easy manner with scrapper in the near future. Since it's reliant on doing blast and leap finishers, it's going to be very impractical to apply quickness to speed up interactions outside of combat now. Certainly doesn't help that leap skills tend to you know, move you around. So it seems scrapper will be joining the ''basically just quickness in combat'' group, also makes it harder to pre-stack for fractals. This indirectly buffs firebrand and herald which is great...

While I agree that being completely bound to gyros for quickness isn't ideal, limiting the combo type to leap and blast doesn't make it easier. If whirl combos or making completing combos apply quickness, then it would be a bit easier. Of course, adding whirl finishers would most likely create projectiles that can aggro on mobs but leap finishers can likewise move you into aggro range of mobs. So if you're going to make it painful in one way, at least let us choose in what way we want to be masochists.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Rayamon.4358

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

Well, so far the message is play Mechanist or reroll at this point from my standpoint.

[Jerus.4350]

8 minutes ago, Rayamon.4358 said:

A thought that occurred to me is that you won't really be able to give yourself quickness outside of combat in an easy manner with scrapper in the near future. Since it's reliant on doing blast and leap finishers, it's going to be very impractical to apply quickness to speed up interactions outside of combat now. Certainly doesn't help that leap skills tend to you know, move you around. So it seems scrapper will be joining the ''basically just quickness in combat'' group, also makes it harder to pre-stack for fractals. This indirectly buffs firebrand and herald which is great...

While I agree that being completely bound to gyros for quickness isn't ideal, limiting the combo type to leap and blast doesn't make it easier. If whirl combos or just completing combos was added to the list or making completing combos apply quickness, then it would be a bit easier. Of course, adding whirl finishers would most likely create projectiles that can aggro on mobs but leap finishers can likewise move you into aggro range of mobs. So if you're going to make it painful in one way, at least let us choose in what way we want to be masochists.

Function gyro is a lightning field, and with the update it will also be a blast finisher when traited for quickness.  So we can open with function gyro in to throw mine for 2 hits.  
 

Then we have acid bomb, big ol bomb, infusion bomb, flame blast, and rumble that are all blasts we can swap in to pre stack.

 

Shouldn’t be a problem to pre stack quickness.  And, for engaging we can function>throw mine>rocket charge for 4 hits right off the bat.

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

59 minutes ago, Jerus.4350 said:

Function gyro is a lightning field, and with the update it will also be a blast finisher when traited for quickness.  So we can open with function gyro in to throw mine for 2 hits.  
 

Then we have acid bomb, big ol bomb, infusion bomb, flame blast, and rumble that are all blasts we can swap in to pre stack.

 

Shouldn’t be a problem to pre stack quickness.  And, for engaging we can function>throw mine>rocket charge for 4 hits right off the bat.

So in short moving the goalposts and putting TWO powers on CD instead. Like lightning field whirl. So in short they are just moving the goal posts instead of fixing the problem they claim to want to tackle (ie powers just being spammed off CD). This hampers utility even more.

And throwing out random function gyros is definitely not an answer, one of our few good utility skills we have as scrappers, and you're making a huge assumption that is going to be both a field and a finisher. The wording of the notes says it's now a blast finisher, doesn't say it retains the field effect.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Ravenwulfe.5360

[Jerus.4350]

8 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

So in short moving the goalposts and putting TWO powers on CD instead. Like lightning field whirl. So in short they are just moving the goal posts instead of fixing the problem they claim to want to tackle (ie powers just being spammed off CD). This hampers utility even more.

And throwing out random function gyros is definitely not an answer, one of our few good utility skills we have as scrappers, and you're making a huge assumption that is going to be both a field and a finisher. The wording of the notes says it's now a blast finisher, doesn't say it retains the field effect.

Just blast gyro would also work.  
 

Things will change and I too am not overly excited to have power quick scrapper change (it’s such a good comfy build) but we will have a LOT of options to build something new that works. 

Function gyro is going to continue to be a multi use skill where using it optimally in one way will result in less optimal use in another way.  That’s no different than before.  We should have more freedom though with the option to replace it with a heal skill on dps or a utility in heal.  I’d still probably always use it in then opening because why would I save it for a rez in the first 20s? (Might trait for stab and hold though /shrug new build new ideas).  This is not dissimilar to Crisis Zone on Mech (aegis, Stab, stunbreak, cleanse, and a good portion of our alacrity).
 

And when discussing the possible details of the change assumptions are all we have.  It didn’t say they the lightning field would be removed so I’m assuming it’s staying.  I very well might be wrong.

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

6 minutes ago, Jerus.4350 said:

Just blast gyro would also work.  
 

Things will change and I too am not overly excited to have power quick scrapper change (it’s such a good comfy build) but we will have a LOT of options to build something new that works. 

Function gyro is going to continue to be a multi use skill where using it optimally in one way will result in less optimal use in another way.  That’s no different than before.  We should have more freedom though with the option to replace it with a heal skill on dps or a utility in heal.  I’d still probably always use it in then opening because why would I save it for a rez in the first 20s? (Might trait for stab and hold though /shrug new build new ideas).  This is not dissimilar to Crisis Zone on Mech (aegis, Stab, stunbreak, cleanse, and a good portion of our alacrity).
 

And when discussing the possible details of the change assumptions are all we have.  It didn’t say they the lightning field would be removed so I’m assuming it’s staying.  I very well might be wrong.

I've brainstormed a lot and our options aren't that big. We are still going to be on the same builds, and relying on blast gyro which already has a ridiculously long cast time is not really a good leg on. We are still going to be using gyros the way they are now. The only difference is we are going to be putting rocket charge or whirl in it too. Nothings really changing except two powers will be on CD for one on the whole keeping powers off CD notion went. Oh except we might be dumping grenade kit for something else. That's about it.

[Jerus.4350]

Yeah, the idea of “hitting things off cooldown is bad” just doesn’t make any sense to me, and you’re right this change won’t change that we will hit things off cooldown, we’ll just hit different things, because that’s how the game works and why the whole idea doesn’t make sense.

 

as far as power dps quick.

I think standard will be grenade, shredder, throw mine, using rocket charge and function off cooldown with enough boon duration to keep up quick.

Another option is we add healing turret or medkit 5 to either fill in for function gyro or reduce boon duration needs.

Flamethrower will also be an option, that can match rocket charge in output so it could be an option if you don’t want to rocket charge.

Healing turret, rifle turret, blast gyro, and throw mine along with function gyro would also make it so you don’t have to use rocket charge.  Elixir gun Acid Bomb is another option here.

I think that’s more variation than we have now and those are just the reasonable ideas I came up with for PVE Scrapper, we have more options, like traited double throw mine.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I'm wondering how we're supposed to workshop a quickness spec with the trait change.  I know they didn't want to pidgeonhole scrapper into using a bunch of wells... but the wells were excellent skills.  It was one of the big appeals to playing scrapper.  It isn't that engi is lacking blast finishers, but they aren't as good as the wells.

Was there a build in mind?  Was the intention to make turrets into a quickness build?  There had to have been some picture in the dev's heads of what the new quickscrap would look like, and how well it would do.  

[Endaris.1452]

3 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Was there a build in mind?  Was the intention to make turrets into a quickness build?  There had to have been some picture in the dev's heads of what the new quickscrap would look like, and how well it would do.  

Expect to see flamethrower 2 to get nerfed because they forgot that engi has a 6s cd blast finisher.

It's just a bad idea, the previous idea was already not easy to balance, the new idea is impossible to balance without impacting the engineer spec as a whole, rather than containing the impact to scrapper itself.

Either the new scrapper will be utter crap or it will be so good that we will see a bunch of unreasonable nerfs to engi combo finishers.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Endaris.1452
typo

[Sirvaleen.1379]

Apparently we'll have to use the current power dps build with healing turret.. what diversity ?
Still and always the grenades kit. No more gyros. Combos.. are Scrappers subpar Catas now ?

Can't make Gyros all stationary so let's just make them a bad pick another way I guess..

But it seems at least we'll get condi Scrapper with 4 kits ! 😂

[Zzik.5873]

17 hours ago, Jerus.4350 said:

Function gyro is a lightning field, and with the update it will also be a blast finisher when traited for quickness.  So we can open with function gyro in to throw mine for 2 hits.  
 

Then we have acid bomb, big ol bomb, infusion bomb, flame blast, and rumble that are all blasts we can swap in to pre stack.

 

Shouldn’t be a problem to pre stack quickness.  And, for engaging we can function>throw mine>rocket charge for 4 hits right off the bat.

All skill that the heal variant should not have on its bar...

[Jerus.4350]

4 hours ago, Makuragee.3058 said:

All skill that the heal variant should not have on its bar...

Well, Acid Bomb and Infusion bomb are EG and Medkit, which are probably going to be on a Heal Engi's bar.

But, either way, the point was those are skills you can swap on to blast for pre-stacking, then swap to what you actually want to use without any cooldowns carrying over.   So, pre-stacking for a fight you can swap on FT, EG, Bomb Kit, and Medkit, then go Big Ol Bomb, Napalm, Flame Blast, Infusion Bomb, Acid Bomb, Swap in Thumper Turret and hit Rumble, then swap all of those skills to AED/Grenades/Shredder Gyro/Throw Mine and you have 5 hits of Quickness and 15 stacks of Might with nothing on cooldown.

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

17 minutes ago, Jerus.4350 said:

Well, Acid Bomb and Infusion bomb are EG and Medkit, which are probably going to be on a Heal Engi's bar.

But, either way, the point was those are skills you can swap on to blast for pre-stacking, then swap to what you actually want to use without any cooldowns carrying over.   So, pre-stacking for a fight you can swap on FT, EG, Bomb Kit, and Medkit, then go Big Ol Bomb, Napalm, Flame Blast, Infusion Bomb, Acid Bomb, Swap in Thumper Turret and hit Rumble, then swap all of those skills to AED/Grenades/Shredder Gyro/Throw Mine and you have 5 hits of Quickness and 15 stacks of Might with nothing on cooldown.

Going to be honest, but that is just really trying to fit a a rectangle into a star hole at this point. Just because you can change your bar (out of combat anyways) doesn't make this a good change for scrappers, or even support/heal scrappers. This basically rips apart the DPS Scrapper (who was lagging behind mechanist to boot), shoves our team utility even further behind making both support and DPS scrapper less desirable than Heralds and Firebrands (since neither of them have to jump through hoops to get quickness going) and just relegates us to a novelty class to pull out every now and then and talk about the days when we actually brought something to the team that wasn't easily filled by practically anyone else.

[Jerus.4350]

11 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Going to be honest, but that is just really trying to fit a a rectangle into a star hole at this point. Just because you can change your bar (out of combat anyways) doesn't make this a good change for scrappers, or even support/heal scrappers. This basically rips apart the DPS Scrapper (who was lagging behind mechanist to boot), shoves our team utility even further behind making both support and DPS scrapper less desirable than Heralds and Firebrands (since neither of them have to jump through hoops to get quickness going) and just relegates us to a novelty class to pull out every now and then and talk about the days when we actually brought something to the team that wasn't easily filled by practically anyone else.

The OP is saying you can't stack quickness outside combat, I'm describing how it can be done.  They are right in that it will be harder in fractals because it won't be just hit your utilities then interact with the mistlock, but it's absolutely going to be possible to prestack, and even without a Mistlock. I have a feeling the OP is also angling towards Home Instance Farming being slightly more of a pain, but if they're making design choices based on that I'm worried.

 

I get it, you don't like the change, I'm not overly excited for qScrapper to change either, it's a favorite comfort build of mine.  Last week I was hoping Scrapper would slip through without any major reworks, but that wasn't the case.  These changes do look functionally sound and I haven't seen anything to show otherwise.  It should be good for Scrapper as a whole, it's just that the one build it's currently good for is going to change, and change doesn't always feel great.

 

I am curious though, where do people get that this is going to hurt hScrapper?  Is it a PVP thing I'm missing?  For PVE instanced content this is just a huge gain for hScrapper getting open utility slots (with the ever present caveat of "if they don't screw us on base duration per application").

[Gendalfs.7521]

8 minutes ago, Jerus.4350 said:

I am curious though, where do people get that this is going to hurt hScrapper?  Is it a PVP thing I'm missing?  For PVE instanced content this is just a huge gain for hScrapper getting open utility slots (with the ever present caveat of "if they don't screw us on base duration per application").

Did I miss part of preview stream where they demoed it?

[Jerus.4350]

1 minute ago, Gendalfs.7521 said:

Did I miss part of preview stream where they demoed it?

Nope, we don't know any details.  I'm going with the assumption that quickness per application won't change, and the math of current abilities has that looking promising.  It's not until it gets to 2s or below per application that things start to look troubling (even then we're looking at more flexibility on hScrapper though).

[Gendalfs.7521]

7 minutes ago, Jerus.4350 said:

Nope, we don't know any details.

Then how we can give any feedback?

[Jerus.4350]

Just now, Gendalfs.7521 said:

Then how we can give any feedback?

We can theorize.  We don’t know the base quickness duration but we know the rest, so if we look at potential blasts/leaps per minute we can create options and then apply the variable(quick duration) at different settings to see how they would play out.

 

 

[WipZedKay.5316]

2 hours ago, Jerus.4350 said:

The OP is saying you can't stack quickness outside combat, I'm describing how it can be done.  They are right in that it will be harder in fractals because it won't be just hit your utilities then interact with the mistlock, but it's absolutely going to be possible to prestack, and even without a Mistlock. I have a feeling the OP is also angling towards Home Instance Farming being slightly more of a pain, but if they're making design choices based on that I'm worried.

I am aware that it can be done for fractals but quite inconvenient with how leap finishers work. And no this isn't just for home instance farming but interactions out of combat in general. While not exactly mandatory or game changing, it was always very nice to play the bruiser scrapper in combat and then once the coast is clear give your self a little quickness to interact with whatever the enemies was blocking you know?

Simply put, having easy access to quickness outside of combat makes a lot of things just nicer. Something Firebrand and Herald will retain and Scrapper will be made quite annoying and inconvenient like Catalyst.

[Jerus.4350]

40 minutes ago, Rayamon.4358 said:

I am aware that it can be done for fractals but quite inconvenient with how leap finishers work. And no this isn't just for home instance farming but interactions out of combat in general. While not exactly mandatory or game changing, it was always very nice to play the bruiser scrapper in combat and then once the coast is clear give your self a little quickness to interact with whatever the enemies was blocking you know?

Simply put, having easy access to quickness outside of combat makes a lot of things just nicer. Something Firebrand and Herald will retain and Scrapper will be made quite annoying and inconvenient like Catalyst.

Got it, was just thinking home instance will be taking a hit as far as speedy application of quickness.
 

I think you’re right that what we have all has the potential to hit things and put us in combat.  I was reading this as “useable while out of combat” and we have plenty of that, we’re not reliant on energy or being in combat, but we won’t have passive applications that can’t put us in combat.

[Nephalem.8921]

On 6/13/2023 at 12:22 AM, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

I've brainstormed a lot and our options aren't that big. We are still going to be on the same builds, and relying on blast gyro which already has a ridiculously long cast time is not really a good leg on. We are still going to be using gyros the way they are now. The only difference is we are going to be putting rocket charge or whirl in it too. Nothings really changing except two powers will be on CD for one on the whole keeping powers off CD notion went. Oh except we might be dumping grenade kit for something else. That's about it.

Brainstorm more. There are plenty options especially for heal scrapper. You could take mine or old blast gyro or even bomb kit or rifle turret and if you really want to overstack hard you can even use thumper turret for that triple blast.

You want to use 1! gyro and only because it does decent dmg. You could also change that for rifle turret which is not even that much worse and play completely without gyros.

Whirl wont do anything towards quickness uptime btw. You will never dump grenade kit. it does too much damage.

This change makes even condi quick scrapper a viable option because it does not have to bring a single gyro anymore.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Nephalem.8921

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

6 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Brainstorm more. There are plenty options especially for heal scrapper. You could take mine or old blast gyro or even bomb kit or rifle turret and if you really want to overstack hard you can even use thumper turret for that triple blast.

You want to use 1! gyro and only because it does decent dmg. You could also change that for rifle turret which is not even that much worse and play completely without gyros.

Whirl wont do anything towards quickness uptime btw. You will never dump grenade kit. it does too much damage.

This change makes even condi quick scrapper a viable option because it does not have to bring a single gyro anymore.

I think you have failed to notice none of that is based around supporting there. But do keep on saying brainstorm more while making suggestions that actually move away from supporting.

[Nephalem.8921]

6 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

I think you have failed to notice none of that is based around supporting there. But do keep on saying brainstorm more while making suggestions that actually move away from supporting.

Thumper turret is based around supporting. e-gun is based around supporting. shield 4 is based around supporting. medkit 5 is based around supporting.

I thought you were talking about dps quick scrapper because this change will free utility choices for heal scrapper a lot.

[MrForz.1953]

Heal scrappers already dabble in combo fields and blast finishers and will dispense that quickness naturally with more free utility slots at their disposal. Quick DPS Scrapper will be a little funky but Rocket Charge alone might make the job easier than I thought.

[Tharan.9085]

1 hour ago, MrForz.1953 said:

Heal scrappers already dabble in combo fields and blast finishers and will dispense that quickness naturally with more free utility slots at their disposal. Quick DPS Scrapper will be a little funky but Rocket Charge alone might make the job easier than I thought.

Why Rocket Charge when you can have the buffed lower cd mine. New scrapper will definetly run mine and nades, the third utility probably a dps gyro. You might run healing turret and just use it off cd for another blast finisher and elite will be mortar as standard and depending on the utility you need stealth gyro or supply box.
Edit: Ignore the Rocket Charge bit, I always confuse rocket boots with rocket charge.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Tharan.9085