Do not despair! Heal Alac Bladesworn might be op??

[feeper.5287]

Hello warrior friends! I was thinking about a meme heal alac Bladesworn build and stumbled into something that is potentially good? Our healing output is still rather bad tbh but in certain fights it could be very strong and offer some potentially very overpowered role compression.

So it appears tactics banner still has 5sec of quickness on it after the patch and obv warhorn 4 has 2sec. So with 100% boon duration that's 14sec of quickness with a 26sec and 16sec cooldown respectively. Lush Forest still reduces the cooldowns of all warrior skills from my testing (I could've sworn they changed this but apparently not?) which will reduce those cooldowns even more. With protection added to the tactics tree, resolution added to discipline and alac on Bladesworn, you have access to every boon in the game on one build. So in *theory* you could have one other quickness provider that's not a full quick dps and just slaps on say the guardian elite or maybe a herald with facet of nature making up for your other quickness uptime resulting in you somewhat compressing quick into the bladesworn. There's a lot of "if's" and it would take a lot of testing (I haven't crunched the numbers very much) but this could on certain fights be extremely strong. Being able to have an extra dps is kinda nuts. This build would only really work in a coordinated group but seems like a fun thing to test out! The rotation would probably be super annoying but since you're in discipline you have a faster weapon swap to help make sure you get warhorn 4 on CD and skills like "Shake It Off" seem to proc Lush Forest as well. In addition to every boon in the game we have the elite banner for ranged 5 target rally or you could take Tactical Reload for more Lush Forest procs.

Curious what people think. As it stands I'm gonna test this out on stuff like KOCM where there isn't really a lot of sustained damage. It could be good and work on it looks on paper or the quickness thing might be waaaay too gimicky and not viable even in a coordinated group. But it could be super good and have to get nerfed 😉

We'll have to wait and see!

EDIT: Anet killed our baby, RIP

Edited June 27, 2023 by feeper.5287

[Jzaku.9765]

I typed up a lot but decided it was all a waste of time without the numbers and the actual implementation on patch day.

Anyway, X doubt for the same reason Heal Warrior sees 0 play right now - the build would be jumping through so many hoops and has its utility slots so overcrowded fighting for space, nobody would want to play (or play with!) this instead of running a (q/a)Dps + (q/a)Heal that are facerolling their keyboard and still managing to be more effective that the Warrior at this role. 

[Yaki.9563]

Warhorn is bad even as a support weapon and the 1-3 buttons are worthless because we don't have a mainhand weapon that does anything but dps (and bad dps at that). We can't bring any 100% uptime buff such as fury or might or quickness without using multiple utility slots, let alone anything like stability/aegis/protection.

I have completely given up on any hope that Warrior will be anything but a DPS class. I guess I shouldn't feel too bad, at least Mesmers can keep us company.

[Dadnir.5038]

At least after the patch the warrior will have the option to provide alacrity/quickness on a healer build. It was a problematic that was fuelling the warrior playerbase wish to get a "support e-spec". I'm not saying that the solution the devs bring with the next balance patch is perfect, but at least it's a solution that actually answer the problematic.

 

[feeper.5287]

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

At least after the patch the warrior will have the option to provide alacrity/quickness on a healer build. It was a problematic that was fuelling the warrior playerbase wish to get a "support e-spec". I'm not saying that the solution the devs bring with the next balance patch is perfect, but at least it's a solution that actually answer the problematic.

 

This might sound very contradictory but warrior never really has/still won't have an actual heal build. Even what I've outlined here will only really work in a very optimized coordinated group on specific fights. Our healing output is just too low to be reliable 90% of the time

[Dadnir.5038]

10 hours ago, feeper.5287 said:

This might sound very contradictory but warrior never really has/still won't have an actual heal build. Even what I've outlined here will only really work in a very optimized coordinated group on specific fights. Our healing output is just too low to be reliable 90% of the time

I disagree with your statement, the past disagree with your statement. Sure, warrior have never been used as a healer in high end PvE, but warrior have been very successful as a healer in sPvP in the past.

The reason warrior wasn't used as a healer was simply that as a healer he couldn't provide anything else that was seen as "valuable" than healing. After the pacth the warrior will be able to provide either alacrity or quickness alongside decent amount of might, perma fury, an unknown amount of protection, perma vigor, perma swiftness and decent cleanse. The only bothersome thing will be it's source of regeneration which basically mean trading a shout for a banner, an instant medium heal on relatively short CD to a casted high barrier source that also provide an aegis and regen on a longer CD (well, someone could also try out the sylvari's healing skill).

On another hand, he used to be able to provide the banner's unique buff along with decent damage output which was close to be the only reason warrior have had a solid 10+% raid presence from HoT launch to EoD launch.

[Myror.7521]

Well warr still Miss a Mainhand weapon for healing (Just a other thing than Warhorn). But outside of this fact tacics is actually not that bad at all ^^. Still some love miss for shout Support Warrior to be real ^^

[felix.2386]

at one point you will start to apply all boons by hitting enemy with burst skill

[feeper.5287]

3 hours ago, felix.2386 said:

at one point you will start to apply all boons by hitting enemy with burst skill

New Martial Cadence, "Apply all boons to your applies when hitting with a burst skill" 😛

[eXruina.4956]

3 hours ago, felix.2386 said:

at one point you will start to apply all boons by hitting enemy with burst skill

boons, finally boons for days, oh happy days, protection, resolution, aegis, for us and all our friends, oh we can but dream. *blows warhorn. 🤣

[feeper.5287]

9 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I disagree with your statement, the past disagree with your statement. Sure, warrior have never been used as a healer in high end PvE, but warrior have been very successful as a healer in sPvP in the past.

The reason warrior wasn't used as a healer was simply that as a healer he couldn't provide anything else that was seen as "valuable" than healing. After the pacth the warrior will be able to provide either alacrity or quickness alongside decent amount of might, perma fury, an unknown amount of protection, perma vigor, perma swiftness and decent cleanse. The only bothersome thing will be it's source of regeneration which basically mean trading a shout for a banner, an instant medium heal on relatively short CD to a casted high barrier source that also provide an aegis and regen on a longer CD (well, someone could also try out the sylvari's healing skill).

On another hand, he used to be able to provide the banner's unique buff along with decent damage output which was close to be the only reason warrior have had a solid 10+% raid presence from HoT launch to EoD launch.

I'm not talking about PvP at all though, only Raids/Strikes

Also warrior even before this upcoming patch had lots of boons it could bring to a fight but it's low healing and lack of a dedicated weapon hold it back a lot

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

8 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

Well warr still Miss a Mainhand weapon for healing (Just a other thing than Warhorn). But outside of this fact tacics is actually not that bad at all ^^. Still some love miss for shout Support Warrior to be real ^^

i think warrior doesn't need a mainhand weapon that heals, only a trait that makes them heal allies when they inflict  crowd control on enemies which will cover several of their weapons.

Edited June 18, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

4 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

i think warrior doesn't need a mainhand weapon that heals, only a trait that makes them heal allies when they inflict  crowd control on enemies which will cover several of their weapons.

That's a good idea, and there's definitely room for traits to do that (eg., Body Blow is in need of a rework and your idea could work well there).

However, reliance on traits such as these means that Warrior's support capabilities are at least partly outside of the Warrior's control, since a) there need to be enemies nearby the people you want to support, and b) you need to be able to CC those enemies. That will make those support capabilities situational at best. Maybe that mechanic, combined with shouts/banners/warhorn, would be decent enough support, but it will certainly be clunkier and less reliable than specs that have dedicated support weapons.

[Jzaku.9765]

 

16 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

i think warrior doesn't need a mainhand weapon that heals, only a trait that makes them heal allies when they inflict  crowd control on enemies which will cover several of their weapons.

opportunity cost

noun

ECONOMICS

noun: opportunity cost; plural noun: opportunity costs

1. the loss of other alternatives when one alternative is chosen.

 

The Warrior shell and all of its especs do nothing to enable a support build. Until some effort is made on that front I don't think it's possible to make a competitive build.

Edited June 19, 2023 by Jzaku.9765

[Imperial.8471]

kitten, I was hoping no one else would notice the possible quick alac bladesworn before the patch, or at least post it on the official forums... I might as well post my thoughts on it now

My current heal quick bladesworn build : [&DQIzFgsqRD2mAHAAagCyALAArQCtAbMA7gCcAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=]
Weapons are Axe/Warhorn

Using vigorous shouts, soldier's comfort and sigil of renewal for heal, with pretty good barrier from warhorn and banner of defense when you see can predict the damage. I picked bladesworn for lush forest to reduce the cooldown of my heals and barriers. Continuous healing is limited, you need some time to recharge between bursts, but when you are charged, you can heal for 10k in 1s in a 600 range. Plus barrier. Plus instant long range aoe rez.
With that build I can handle my guild's w1-2-4 raid clears with no problems. As long as people don't screw up all the time and give you a minimum of time to recharge, the build is pretty decent. Not at the level of hfb and the likes, but not meme level either

Now, with the update, according to the preview, I can keep this same build I and go from decent healer to actually good. Soldier's comfort will give protection, doubled standards will give resolution, not needing banners for quickness will free a utility slot for another healing shout.

But more importantly, Banner of Tactics may keep it's inherent quickness. 5s every 30s. Add 2s every 20s from warhorn's Charge. Doesn't seem much right ? With 100% boon duration and alac (that you now apply yourself), you get 10s every 24s and 4s every 16s. Or a 66% quickness uptime. Now take into account lush forest and your axe. Skill 3 Throw Axe. Ammunition skill with 10s cooldown, 8s with Discipline trait Axe Mastery, 6.4s with the trait and alac. It means every 6.4s you can reduce your cooldowns by 1s, or a 15% cooldown reduction. On top of alacrity. From axe 3 only. That can get you to 79% quickness uptime.

If you also count the 3 gunsaber ammo skills (only 3 because skill 3 doesn't trigger lush forest, a bug I guess), dragon trigger skills 4 and 5 and your (only here) heal shout, you can get in the 90% quickness uptime. Possibly 100% if you play well. It gets hard to calculate since lush forest also reduces the cooldown of other ammo skills

The whole build would be clumsy, hard to handle, expensive to gear (100% boon duration without traits, so good foods, utils and infusions would be necessary) but could give 100% alac, 90-100% quickness, protection, resolution, regeneration, resistance, vigor, swiftness, ~50% stab (banner of tactics), aegis, either good condi cleanse or good might/fury (shout and trait alternatives), barrier, good burst heal. And make room for a full dps in the subsquad instead of a boon dps

The balance update could turn the meme heal bladesworn into the most overpowered support of the game. I really hope Anet won't read that before I get to play with it a bit

[Aaron.1294]

fun and interactive healing bot simulator. Nice

[feeper.5287]

On 6/21/2023 at 5:32 PM, Imperial.8471 said:

kitten, I was hoping no one else would notice the possible quick alac bladesworn before the patch, or at least post it on the official forums... I might as well post my thoughts on it now

My current heal quick bladesworn build : [&DQIzFgsqRD2mAHAAagCyALAArQCtAbMA7gCcAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=]
Weapons are Axe/Warhorn

Using vigorous shouts, soldier's comfort and sigil of renewal for heal, with pretty good barrier from warhorn and banner of defense when you see can predict the damage. I picked bladesworn for lush forest to reduce the cooldown of my heals and barriers. Continuous healing is limited, you need some time to recharge between bursts, but when you are charged, you can heal for 10k in 1s in a 600 range. Plus barrier. Plus instant long range aoe rez.
With that build I can handle my guild's w1-2-4 raid clears with no problems. As long as people don't screw up all the time and give you a minimum of time to recharge, the build is pretty decent. Not at the level of hfb and the likes, but not meme level either

Now, with the update, according to the preview, I can keep this same build I and go from decent healer to actually good. Soldier's comfort will give protection, doubled standards will give resolution, not needing banners for quickness will free a utility slot for another healing shout.

But more importantly, Banner of Tactics may keep it's inherent quickness. 5s every 30s. Add 2s every 20s from warhorn's Charge. Doesn't seem much right ? With 100% boon duration and alac (that you now apply yourself), you get 10s every 24s and 4s every 16s. Or a 66% quickness uptime. Now take into account lush forest and your axe. Skill 3 Throw Axe. Ammunition skill with 10s cooldown, 8s with Discipline trait Axe Mastery, 6.4s with the trait and alac. It means every 6.4s you can reduce your cooldowns by 1s, or a 15% cooldown reduction. On top of alacrity. From axe 3 only. That can get you to 79% quickness uptime.

If you also count the 3 gunsaber ammo skills (only 3 because skill 3 doesn't trigger lush forest, a bug I guess), dragon trigger skills 4 and 5 and your (only here) heal shout, you can get in the 90% quickness uptime. Possibly 100% if you play well. It gets hard to calculate since lush forest also reduces the cooldown of other ammo skills

The whole build would be clumsy, hard to handle, expensive to gear (100% boon duration without traits, so good foods, utils and infusions would be necessary) but could give 100% alac, 90-100% quickness, protection, resolution, regeneration, resistance, vigor, swiftness, ~50% stab (banner of tactics), aegis, either good condi cleanse or good might/fury (shout and trait alternatives), barrier, good burst heal. And make room for a full dps in the subsquad instead of a boon dps

The balance update could turn the meme heal bladesworn into the most overpowered support of the game. I really hope Anet won't read that before I get to play with it a bit

Tehehe I'm just out here tryna ruin all our hopes and dreams 😉 I will laugh if Anet somehow change this before the patch goes live but ty for all the math! I've very keen to try it out and see my dream no longer be a meme

[Imperial.8471]

It's already not a meme. Still yesterday I was doing HT and w3 with the heal bladesworn build I posted and it worked very well. XJJ CM works too, as long as Ankha doesn't get 4 stacks of void (1 went well, 4 was too much pressure. Or maybe it's just that half the squad was already dead from aoes and the rest panicking). And tomorrow I'm doing w6 with my guild, I'll use it to tank and heal against Qadim. 

Where hfb is a generalist build that's good everywhere, bladesworn is more of a specialist. It sucks against random damage requiring continuous healing, so I won't even try it against the twin largos. But against big but predictable bursts like Qadim's meteor (that last time did a number on my squad) it might be the best option. I can give big barrier and aegis before, then heal everyone near instantly with my shouts. By Qadim's next metor my skills will be off cooldown again, ready for the next burst. And should something go wrong and people go down, and others go down trying to rez the first, I have the elite banner

[felix.2386]

On 6/18/2023 at 4:28 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

I disagree with your statement, the past disagree with your statement. Sure, warrior have never been used as a healer in high end PvE, but warrior have been very successful as a healer in sPvP in the past.

very successful as a healer for 2 month. the total meta up time of healbreaker in pvp does not surpass 6 months since the release of spellbreaker.

ok dude, when's the last time it is ever played, 3 years ago.

and when healbreaker was played, it wasn't because of it's healing either, all other healers heal way more.

the only reason healbreaker was played, because it could not die, while others could die. it's simple as that.

Edited June 24, 2023 by felix.2386

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, felix.2386 said:

very successful as a healer for 2 month. the total meta up time of healbreaker in pvp does not surpass 6 months since the release of spellbreaker.

ok dude, when's the last time it is ever played, 3 years ago.

and when healbreaker was played, it wasn't because of it's healing either, all other healers heal way more.

the only reason healbreaker was played, because it could not die, while others could die. it's simple as that.

I'm not talking of "healbreaker" but of heal warrior as a whole. Unless, you missed something, Bladesworn's ability to reset charge on core skills have been removed for a good reason not even a year ago. Unless you weren't even playing in the vanilla game, shoutbow have been a thing in sPvP, a decently successfull thing.

Each time a healing warrior have risen in the game it eventually led to tuning down. Which basically mean that it was successful enough to have competitive players whine about it.

I won't lie and say that warrior have been in a very good spot in sPvP for 10 years because that's simply not true. But, fact is that a good part of the few times it managed to be meta in sPvP, it was due to the shout trait and the healing associated. Something that I believe you should at least acknowledge if you have a semi-decent understanding of the warrior's history in competitive mode.

[feeper.5287]

On 6/23/2023 at 10:10 AM, Imperial.8471 said:

It's already not a meme. Still yesterday I was doing HT and w3 with the heal bladesworn build I posted and it worked very well. XJJ CM works too, as long as Ankha doesn't get 4 stacks of void (1 went well, 4 was too much pressure. Or maybe it's just that half the squad was already dead from aoes and the rest panicking). And tomorrow I'm doing w6 with my guild, I'll use it to tank and heal against Qadim. 

Where hfb is a generalist build that's good everywhere, bladesworn is more of a specialist. It sucks against random damage requiring continuous healing, so I won't even try it against the twin largos. But against big but predictable bursts like Qadim's meteor (that last time did a number on my squad) it might be the best option. I can give big barrier and aegis before, then heal everyone near instantly with my shouts. By Qadim's next metor my skills will be off cooldown again, ready for the next burst. And should something go wrong and people go down, and others go down trying to rez the first, I have the elite banner

Yes it works but it's not nearly as cohesive as other heal builds that have much better healing output and reliable protection uptime

[Imperial.8471]

So in the end heal bladesworn is not OP. It is better, definitely, but not nearly as good as the preview suggested:

-Alac generation is OP. That much is true. at 90% BD I give 18s of alac with a single DT. They'll preobably reduce that a bit
-Without the need for Banner of Tactics for quickness, I have room for an extra healing shout, taking a lot of pressure off healing. I can more safely heal without fear of running out
-Protection from Soldier's Comfort is a troll. 2.5s on Soldier's Focus 10s cooldown ?! Even with maxed BD I can't get 50% uptime ! Most healers can give so much prot they don't even think about it, but when warrior get ONE way to give prot it's meme level ?!
-Doubled Standards sucks. 5s resolution per banner. Why bother with so little when you can take Shrug It Off, Shake It Off and combo a banner's light field for outright condi cleanse ? 
-Banner of Tactics is now useless. I get they had to remove quickness, but why not put something else in its place ? Like resolution ? They just nerfed it to uselessness

Funny thing is, last evening I tried bladesworn, scourge and druid in raids (all heal alac), and bladesworn was still the best/easiest to play. That tells you how much they kittened up the others...

[feeper.5287]

1 hour ago, Imperial.8471 said:

So in the end heal bladesworn is not OP. It is better, definitely, but not nearly as good as the preview suggested:

-Alac generation is OP. That much is true. at 90% BD I give 18s of alac with a single DT. They'll preobably reduce that a bit
-Without the need for Banner of Tactics for quickness, I have room for an extra healing shout, taking a lot of pressure off healing. I can more safely heal without fear of running out
-Protection from Soldier's Comfort is a troll. 2.5s on Soldier's Focus 10s cooldown ?! Even with maxed BD I can't get 50% uptime ! Most healers can give so much prot they don't even think about it, but when warrior get ONE way to give prot it's meme level ?!
-Doubled Standards sucks. 5s resolution per banner. Why bother with so little when you can take Shrug It Off, Shake It Off and combo a banner's light field for outright condi cleanse ? 
-Banner of Tactics is now useless. I get they had to remove quickness, but why not put something else in its place ? Like resolution ? They just nerfed it to uselessness

Funny thing is, last evening I tried bladesworn, scourge and druid in raids (all heal alac), and bladesworn was still the best/easiest to play. That tells you how much they kittened up the others...

Again, our healing output is not enough to be competitive with other actual healers. That and our prot uptime is bad even with durability or herald runes. If staff turns out to be an actual support weapon with some barrier/healing and prot/aegis/stab then heal warrior can actually function. The problem with a heal Bladesworn build is you only have one weapon set that can offer any support since you're locked into gunsaber. Lush Forest is nice but having two weapon sets is far more useful.

And banner of tactics is a very good skill. Ranged AoE superspeed, stunbreak, stab and pulsing resistance on one skill is extremely good. And you are saying to take resolution off the Double Standards trait and put it just on banner of tactics which would overall be a nerf right now...not sure what you're getting at. Double Standards isn't great but on a "healer" build you don't need the other two traits so might as well take it and it's a massive buff to the regen time on banner of defense.

Also "Shrug It Off" isn't a skill xD

[Imperial.8471]

If you have 2 utility shouts, and a sigil of renewal (heal on every weapon swap) you can get some pretty good heal. Yesterday I could outheal an experienced hfb on vale guardian.

And I'm not saying to remove Resolution from Doubled Standards to put it on Banner of Tactics, I'm saying give it on Banner of Tactics too, just like they replaced Doubled Standards' quickness with it. As is Banner of Tactics is not worth taking unless you specificaly need stability. You already have stunbreak from Shake It Off, which also gives condi cleanse better than just resistance, and a bit of superspeed isn't worth losing a second healing shout (most likely For Great Justice also necessary for might and fury).