Will Relics invalidate legendary runes? [Merged]

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

24 minutes ago, Echo.3725 said:

Weird, according to someone with almost 2k posts we shouldn't need that new thing because it certainly doesn't replace that set bonus on runes or functionally change their behavior in any way.

You sure you are reading the announcement right?
 

Posts counts don't matter. The integrity of their arguments is what matters. When you attack their post count, either because it is too low or too high in your opinion all you do is lower the integrity of your own position.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Why do I get the feeling that Rubi is sitting there with a bowl of popcorn...

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

1 minute ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Why do I get the feeling that Rubi is sitting there with a bowl of popcorn...

Because they are and this is quality entertainment 

Edited July 12, 2023 by BlaqueFyre.5678

[idpersona.3810]

15 hours ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

Aww how cute stalking post counts now lmao 🤣 I feel so blessed. You still haven’t answered the questions, is it because you can’t without actually speaking the facts?

Let's not go back down a road like this. It'd be nice to put the going around in circles behind us since several points from this morning just got ignored when they were inconvenient.

It was nice to see a mod come in and clean up the thread some. Even if different sides disagreed, the points were (somewhat) on topic.

And I also agree, post counts don't/shouldn't matter. The previous few pages should attest to that.

Edited July 13, 2023 by idpersona.3810
Edit: undid some autocorrect

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

3 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

Let's not go back down a road like this. It'd be nice to put the going around in circles behind us since several points from this morning just got ignored when they were inconvenient.

It was nice to see a mod come in and clean up the thread some. Even is difference sides disagreed, the points were (somewhat) on topic.

And I also agree, post counts don't/shouldn't matter. The previous few pages should attest to that.

I mean I  was still waiting on a response to actual questions, they were the ones trying  to make personal attacks while stalking post counts. I’m on topic to this entire thread I even commended them, it touched my heart the attention they gave me. 

[idpersona.3810]

2 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

I mean I  was still waiting on a response to actual questions, they were the ones trying  to make personal attacks while stalking post counts. I’m on topic to this entire thread I even commended them, it touched my heart the attention they gave me. 

To be fair, you also ignored your share of points that were made. You can't expect people to address every particular point you made. You do seem to have posted almost 3 times the next person in this thread. And a lot of your posts were the same.
Either intentionally or not, you fundamentally don't seem to see the problem other players have. Hint: it's not because they are whiny and want free things.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

3 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

To be fair, you also ignored your share of points that were made. You can't expect people to address every particular point you made. You do seem to have posted almost 3 times the next person in this thread. And a lot of your posts were the same.
Either intentionally or not, you fundamentally don't seem to see the problem other players have. Hint: it's not because they are whiny and want free things.

I didn’t ignore anything I answered all the points more than 5 people brought against me just because they ignored my answer or didn’t like doesn’t mean I ignored them, the problem they kept bringing up is Legendary runes lose their functionality which I addressed multiple times they never lost their functionality

Edited July 12, 2023 by BlaqueFyre.5678

[idpersona.3810]

8 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

I didn’t ignore anything I answered all the points more than 5 people brought against me just because they ignored my answer or didn’t like doesn’t mean I ignored them, the problem they kept bringing up is Legendary runes lose their functionality which I addressed multiple times they never lost their functionality

Okay. I had a question asked directly of you more than once. I am still curious about your thoughts on this:

 

7 hours ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

Sorry but they aren’t taking away your chocolate chips you still get 6 bonuses on runes and the Relic Bonuses aren’t the same bonuses that runes currently have so they aren’t repackaging your chocolate chips separately.. again you can’t even come up with a decent analogy or argument.

6 hours ago, idpersona.3810 said:

Directly quoted from the Combat page:

"For example, the Relic of the Trooper’s effect is identical to the previous sixth-tier Trooper rune effect: “Remove a condition from each affected ally after using a shout skill.”
Emphasis mine. I don't know why you keep saying the Relic bonuses aren't the same bonuses.

Does "same bonuses" =/= "identical"?

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

9 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

Okay. I had a question asked directly of you more than once. I am still curious about your thoughts on this:

 

Does "same bonuses" =/= "identical"?

I answered that question rune of the trooper 6th bonus is 125 toughness and condi cleanse relic of the trooper is condi cleanse only they aren’t the same bonus.. using your logic of Identical= same then identical twins would be the same person. That’s not the case they are similar but different 

Edited July 12, 2023 by BlaqueFyre.5678

[idpersona.3810]

2 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

I answered that question rune of the trooper 6th bonus is 125 toughness and condi cleanse relic of the trooper is condi cleanse only they aren’t the same bonus..

And so even though their example says that the relic effect is the identical, you say they're not the same. That the stat split from the 2nd half of the effect is enough to count anyone who has an issue with the loss as unreasonable.
And that before and after release, you just count it as a "rebalance" and is therefore perfectly fine, and seemingly all players who have an issue with it are whining?
I am not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm verifying my understanding of your stance.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

6 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

And so even though their example says that the relic effect is the identical, you say they're not the same. That the stat split from the 2nd half of the effect is enough to count anyone who has an issue with the loss as unreasonable.
And that before and after release, you just count it as a "rebalance" and is therefore perfectly fine, and seemingly all players who have an issue with it are whining?
I am not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm verifying my understanding of your stance.

Identical does not equal the same as you claim again read my comment using your logic identical twins would mean that two separate people that are identical are the same person, when clearly they are not

the bonuses between Runes of trooper and relic of trooper are similar but not the same

and Yes they are whining because their whole premise is losing the function of Legendary runes which they haven’t as proven multiple times they haven’t lost the legendary rune function and they keep asking for free items for that

 

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by BlaqueFyre.5678

[konzen.2348]

If the existing functionality of a complete set of legendary runes will remain. Does it lose a feature because of the “6th special bonus” moving to the new relic system?

[idpersona.3810]

17 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

Identical does not equal the same as you claim again read my comment using your logic identical twins would mean that two separate people that are identical are the same person, when clearly they are not

the bonuses between Runes of trooper and relic of trooper are similar but not the same

I quoted "identical" directly from one of the release pages.
 

18 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

and Yes they are whining because their whole premise is losing the function of Legendary runes which they haven’t as proven multiple times they haven’t lost the legendary rune function and they keep asking for free items for that

You are using the word "proven" wrong (imo). You provided your opinion. Which several disagree with (obviously). You seem to think (and correct me if I'm wrong) as long as the legendary rune does something, then it hasn't lost functionality. Regardless of the fact that it will factually (as the Trooper example) do less.

[Echo.3725]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Posts counts don't matter. The integrity of their arguments is what matters. When you attack their post count, either because it is too low or too high in your opinion all you do is lower the integrity of your own position.

Yea, it was mainly to point out that the loud voices ignoring direct quotes from an announcement don't need a platform.

This post sums up the concern quite well what we have been trying to voice our opinions on:

1 hour ago, culturespy.1324 said:

So much of this discussion is people talking past each other because someone was wrong on the Internet.

The real question is one layer deeper, and the outcome of the legendary rune compensation will provide at least an indirect answer:

Does Arenanet have a policy regarding the degree to which Legendary gear should maintain its functionality in perpetuity?

This is a question many of us apparently never even thought to ask, myself included. I have always assumed that Legendary gear represents the absolute endgame, and that Arenanet have a commitment to 1) -never- introduce a tier of gear that is functionally better than a Legendary item in the same slot, and 2) -never- introduce an item that functionally obsoletes any gear in any slot.

Item 1 has been directly promised since before game launch. Item 2 is at least strongly implied by the company's consistent avoidance of vertical progression mechanics.

Additionally, it would seem that some have also assumed that the implied promise of a piece of Legendary gear also includes a sort of "forever item" function, a final answer to whatever QoL problems it solved when it was introduced. Call this item #3. And include me in the group that shares this belief.

A partial analogy to the current situation can be seen with weapons - every rework and balance patch alters the functionality of Legendary weapons. But this situation is unique in that we've never seen part of a weapon skill's function moved to a new item slot.

Relics pass #1 easily, and a compelling argument could be made that they pass #2, at least in a "letter of the law" sense. They do not pass #3, at least not to me. However #3 is the weakest of those supposed promises. #3 might not ever have actually been intended by Arenanet. It has never been tested until now.

It would be good to get some unambiguous statements of fact and intent here. But unfortunately, I think most of us are already aware that we're likely to be left reading between the lines, trying to figure out what the underlying rules at Arenanet HQ really are. So please take note, Arenanet: your actions will speak volumes about what your most dedicated players will expect from you going forward. Not just those with Legendary Runes, but any Legendary gear.

Ultimately I hope the 18th post clarifies these lines more:

Quote

With the first release on August 22, the sixth tier of each rune set will instead complete the stat bonuses associated with that rune set, and the additional special effects or conditional bonuses will be removed entirely.

- How are existing rune holders (legendary or not) going to be able to participate in current content with the loss of set bonuses? One relic box for an account of up to what 69 characters now? multiply this by 8 for equipment templates.

Quote

But fear not—special bonus effects in combat aren’t just going away as a category! We’ve split them off into their own build component, so you can choose both the stats you want and which special effect is right for your build. Which brings us to…

- See the above concern as it is related, with the added flexibility on the player side bringing complexity on balancing. Is there going to be seperate PvP, WvW, and PvE relic restrictions like there are with skills? How is this going to affect PvP gear slots? will we have a relic and rune selection? Will they all be available or require unlocks on the relic side for PvP? While little impact on legendary runes this seems to have more impact across the game interfaces and questions on how they are letting us unlock these.

Quote

Starting on August 22, everyone’s build will include a relic slot that becomes usable at level 60. Many of the relics that are available to players regardless of expansion ownership will cover the functionality of popular sixth-tier rune bonuses.

-This clearly shows the devaluation of runes and thus the legendary runes themselves. What is being done to address this and what details on how this will impact further rune set bonuses?

Quote

For example, the Relic of the Trooper’s effect is identical to the previous sixth-tier Trooper rune effect: “Remove a condition from each affected ally after using a shout skill.” Other core relics have an updated effect compared to the sixth-tier rune they used to be associated with, like the Relic of the Thief: “Upon striking an enemy with a weapon skill that has a cooldown or resource cost, gain 1% strike damage for 6 seconds, up to a maximum of 5 stacks, and refresh duration of all stacks to 6 seconds.”

-Again a direct example of devaluation. This is a change for thief but how trooper is just getting split into two pieces of equipment when it used to be one. Can we get details on if this will be usable for legendary rune holders in this case? Since there is no change on the trooper rune's bonus and it is just being moved to relic would we be able to just slot this effect from the get-go?

Quote

Generally, you’ll be able to get relics through crafting, instanced content like Fractals of the Mists and Strike Missions, reward tracks, achievements, and more. To celebrate the new system, we’ll distribute a relic selection box to all players at launch.

-This makes it sound like relics will be per character but hopefully, the 18th announcement clarifies this aspect more. The single selection box per account really feels like a slap in the face if you had legendary runes or even fully geared-out characters with superior runes. It is almost like they don't value the time and effort you already put in to get those or farm the gold to be worth at least making you whole again after taking away something and trying to give it back as something new.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

9 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

I quoted "identical" directly from one of the release pages.
 

You are using the word "proven" wrong (imo). You provided your opinion. Which several disagree with (obviously). You seem to think (and correct me if I'm wrong) as long as the legendary rune does something, then it hasn't lost functionality. Regardless of the fact that it will factually (as the Trooper example) do less.

No it’s a fact of what the function of Legendary Runes are, no reason to try to deny the only function is to provide swapping between any available Superior Runes free of charge. They have no other function. 

and again they don’t care what the bonuses of the Superior Runes are that isn’t a function of what Legendary Runes provide. And again you keep trying to say identical equal the same when it doesn’t it means similar. You quoted identical and asked a question that would make the term identical equals the same. “ Does "same bonuses" =/= "identical"?“  

and again Superior Runes provide 6/6 bonuses whatever they may be because Anet reserves the right to make any changes to them that they see fit as they have done multiple times before this expansion. 
 

so answer me this after the patch will you be able to select an available item type known as Superior Rune that exists in the game free of charge? And will that Superior Rune have up to 6 bonuses? 

Edited July 13, 2023 by BlaqueFyre.5678

[Linken.6345]

54 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

I answered that question rune of the trooper 6th bonus is 125 toughness and condi cleanse relic of the trooper is condi cleanse only they aren’t the same bonus.. using your logic of Identical= same then identical twins would be the same person. That’s not the case they are similar but different 

Yea but you know the tier 6 rune will not have 125 toughness they have said so all of it is getting removed and replaced.

So 1 of the bonuses from tier 6  runes get cut and copied over to relic system.

It dont mean that the tier 6 rune dont have any bonuses at all just less then it had before.

So if something is missing that a negative thing right?

Just because you can earn it back in another item dont make that a positive thing.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

Just now, Linken.6345 said:

Yea but you know the tier 6 rune will not have 125 toughness they have said so all of it is getting removed and replaced.

So 1 of the bonuses from tier 6  runes get cut and copied over to relic system.

It dont mean that the tier 6 rune dont have any bonuses at all just less then it had before.

So if something is missing that a negative thing right?

Just because you can earn it back in another item dont make that a positive thing.

Again thats not an issue or the argument at hand which Legendary Runes losing their function and being invalidated, again balance patches have happened multiple times and never was their uproar when they completely changed some runes 6th bonuses. 
 

the only function Legendary Runes have is being able to freely swap between any available Superior Runes that’s it. so please stay on topic of the discussion

the Bonuses relics provide aren’t the same bonuses that current runes have they are different. just because the Runes are getting rebalanced to be more inline with each other doesn’t mean any function was lost on Legendary Runes.
 

[Linken.6345]

20 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

No it’s a fact of what the function of Legendary Runes are, no reason to try to deny the only function is to provide swapping between any available Superior Runes free of charge. They have no other function. 

and again they don’t care what the bonuses of the Superior Runes are that isn’t a function of what Legendary Runes provide. And again you keep trying to say identical equal the same when it doesn’t it means similar.

and again Superior Runes provide 6/6 bonuses whatever they may be because Anet reserves the right to make any changes to them that they see fit as they have done multiple times before this expansion. 
 

so answer me this after the patch will you be able to select an available item type known as Superior Rune that exists in the game free of charge? And will that Superior Rune have up to 6 bonuses? 

Yes you will be able to do that but its pointless since 90% of the reason to even have 6/6 runes are gone.

You can now slap on what ever rune you like aslong as the correct relic is unlocked so you could have geared over 300 characters for the price of legendary runes.

Something no account can hold btw.

You dont need rune of the scholar anymore you can go with ogre thats 1/4th the price.

So do legendary runes have a function thats needed after this?

No they really dont.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Linken.6345

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

5 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Yes you will be able to do that but its pointless since 90% of the reason to even have 6/6 runes are gone.

You can now slap on what ever rune you like aslong as the correct relic is unlocked so you could have geared over 300 characters for the price of legendary runes.

Something no account can hold btw.

You dont need rune of the scholar anymore you can go with ogre thats 1/4th the price.

Again what you’re saying is irrelevant to the conversation.

you would still do 6/6 runes because the progressive bonuses of the runes, you act like those aren’t a thing if stats didn’t matter people wouldn’t be trying to add the perfect amount of certain stats to their builds… 

and with rune select everyone only ever chose from a small selection to begin with so… your fetish with scholar runes is a little funny it’s like that’s the only time you ever had selected or something.

and you don’t know what Runes will be available after the patch or their cost… 

legendary runes still allow free selection of all available runes at any given time free of cost to include any new stat selection they may include(they’ve added quite few different stats every xpac) that normally require special materials or currency to acquire 

so again please stay on topic of the thread instead of trying to derail it

Edited July 13, 2023 by BlaqueFyre.5678

[Linken.6345]

3 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

Again what you’re saying is irrelevant to the conversation.

you would still do 6/6 runes because the progressive bonuses of the runes, you act like those aren’t a thing if stats didn’t matter people wouldn’t be trying to add the perfect amount of certain stats to their builds… 

and with rune select everyone only ever chose from a small selection to begin with so… your fetish with scholar runes is a little funny it’s like that’s the only time you ever had selected or something.

and you don’t know what Runes will be available after the patch or their cost… 

You say this like its a good thing that is even worse and will devalue legendary runes even more.

So not only do it have a useless function that may aswell be removed and gold reimburst to everyone who have said runes.

And Im saying this as a  person with no legendary runes, 1 set of scholar runes because Im a cheap skate who gets by on moving them from character to character.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

Just now, Linken.6345 said:

You say this like its a good thing that is even worse and will devalue legendary runes even more.

So not only do it have a useless function that may aswell be removed and gold reimburst to everyone who have said runes.

And Im saying this as a  person with no legendary runes, 1 set of scholar runes because Im a cheap skate who gets by on moving them from character to character.

It doesn’t devalue Legendary Runes in the slightest, you keep trying to claim that without backing it up. Having full stat freedom for the runes to get the perfect stats on whatever build you want is more value than having to choose subpar stats…

I’m saying this from the perspective of if they give out a legendary relic I would come out ahead if they don’t, I still come out ahead because there is zero loss of Legendary Rune functionality and on one hand I would just get free compensation whatever it may be.

Just because you find no value in the proposed change doesn’t mean the Legendary Runes lose functionality, or the functionality is useless because they are far from useless.

 

[idpersona.3810]

28 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

No it’s a fact of what the function of Legendary Runes are, no reason to try to deny the only function is to provide swapping between any available Superior Runes free of charge. They have no other function.

Okay. So this is your opinion. And plenty disagree with you. I'm going to move on from this point and not come back to it. Thank you. 

29 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

so answer me this after the patch will you be able to select an available item type known as Superior Rune that exists in the game free of charge? And will that Superior Rune have up to 6 bonuses? 

And they will be lesser than they are now. Not because they were merely nerfed. But because their ability was split off and given to a new item.
But this too is going back overly previous ground. Suffice to say that I and others disagree with your opinion on this. You are not factually right. You have an opinion just like everyone else.

And you are welcome to that.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

Just now, idpersona.3810 said:

Okay. So this is your opinion. And plenty disagree with you. I'm going to move on from this point and not come back to it. Thank you. 

And they will be lesser than they are now. Not because they were merely nerfed. But because their ability was split off and given to a new item.
But this too is going back overly previous ground. Suffice to say that I and others disagree with your opinion on this. You are not factually right. You have an opinion just like everyone else.

And you are welcome to that.

It’s not an opinion it’s literally the only function of Legendary Runes… you can’t dispute that unless you’re willfully ignoring the facts. Just because you say something is an opinion doesn’t make it so.

It’s clear you can’t have an actual discussion because you will brush things off as “Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.”

[Linken.6345]

9 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

It doesn’t devalue Legendary Runes in the slightest, you keep trying to claim that without backing it up. Having full stat freedom for the runes to get the perfect stats on whatever build you want is more value than having to choose subpar stats…

I’m saying this from the perspective of if they give out a legendary relic I would come out ahead if they don’t, I still come out ahead because there is zero loss of Legendary Rune functionality and on one hand I would just get free compensation whatever it may be.

Just because you find no value in the proposed change doesn’t mean the Legendary Runes lose functionality, or the functionality is useless because they are far from useless.

 

So being able to switch bettwen 99 rune set now that will be reduced since some share stats like deadeye, scholar and ogre as an  example.

to lets say 80ish is not a devalue of runes?

+ the only reason you switch bettwen ogre, scholar and deadeye is the uniqe tier 6 bonus.

And that is going away moved to another slot and the stats wilrebalancedl be but its totaly not a reduction in the rune in anyway.

We dont know if rune of the trooper will ave 125 toughness they might just take the 175 vitality and 100 toughness for tier 1-5 and spread it 1-6

Edited July 13, 2023 by Linken.6345

[idpersona.3810]

Just now, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

It’s not an opinion it’s literally the only function of Legendary Runes… you can’t dispute that unless you’re willfully ignoring the facts. Just because you say something is an opinion doesn’t make it so.

It’s clear you can’t have an actual discussion because you will brush things off as “Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.”

Cute.
I have no interest in discussing this further at this time. You have a very narrow view of this issue and obviously further discussion is unhelpful. That's all.
Good luck. I'm home now and so will go and enjoy playing the game.