Is it just me, or does the new fractal boss have WAY too much health?

[maxwelgm.4315]

10 hours ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

How would fix the encounter then? I ask because anything you do will have unintended consequences. You can not say, cut the hp in half and think that fixes everything.

Very importantly, it is Anet's job to fix the encounter, or even better to not have put out a messed up encounter in the first place.

That said, to put it into perspective, Kanaxai has nearly as much health in CM as 3x the Sorrowful Spellcaster (at 15 million). The very first thing they should have done was to have proper differences in between the phases, actually changing both the visuals and the mechanics every 13 million HP or so. Then introduce checkpoints alongside each phase so people have the option of going for the title by killing it all in one go or be able to reset without restarting every phase in case they die. That would already be a solution that wouldn't require changing the CC but would have required properly designing a fractal (and not a strike) boss.

If reducing HP is a must because they are not able to redesign a fractal after 3 years without releasing any, then just change the CC achievement straight up and reduce the amount of defiance bars that pop, it's not nearly a big of a deal as people make it out to be. And while we're at it, how about showing eligibility for the title on your bar like every other single encounter has done so far? Heck, they could even add a defiance bar to the ghosts that steal your boons and count that towards the achievement, while also allowing some counterplay (which I guess is forbidden for this fractal though, they seemed adamant about making it a bad FFXIV boss).

[Cyninja.2954]

This fractal (or rather strike, given all the indicators we have that this was originally intended to be a strike) is the result of having to adapt to massive power creep the game has been subjected to first and foremost as well as lack of QA testing.

A.) massive access to boons for everyone -> design a fight where tons of movement is involved to again try to reduce boons present

Net Result: melee hate design and disadvantage to classes with less movement skills

B.) massive increase in dps on all classes/players (again thanks to now guaranteed access to offensive boons) and a general increase in output due to drop in input requirements (aka easier rotations and simplification of classes) -> massive hit point sponge requirements

Net Result: fight takes longer under ideal circumstances, which it is designed around. Non ideal circumstances fall behind even more than before

C.) massive easy access to defensive boons -> tons of instant kill mechanics because anything else can get healed through by now

Net Result: a lot more do or die design

As to the bugs, those have been covered by now. This fight has far more to do with learn to work around the bugs, than actually learn to complete the fight. In that regard it is similar to HTCM, learn to transition properly at 66 and 33 (and pray none of your teammates gets ripped at 33 giving the boss regeneration). Not a good spot to be in design wise.

Most of the things above can be solved via composition: bring 2 offensive alac (spectre or scourge both work), bring 2 qdps (QFB is fine, Qharb works too), bring 1 pure dps. Healers are not needed, given you can regenerate to 100% during damage phases and most other stuff will kill you anyway (plus you really don't want your healer to have to do a delayed add).

The buggy fight can not.

1. Proper targeting of the 1 skill is annoying at best, frustrating at worst (even if the idea to move out is cool) and so is the delay of being able to weapon swap out of the special action kit (why is this not done via the special action key at any point in time?). Worse if you are in some shroud or kit while activating the special action key, now you have to first leave your own kit to be allowed to drop the special action kit via weapon swap (again, why can't we go in and out with the special action key, it's been done before).

2. Having to share or take over the beams for adds during phases is a good idea, and is totally lost by stupid delay design which ultimately means everyone has to just stop moving once a phase starts.

3. Phase 3 eventually just becomes a race to finish the fight, I do like the "safe" spot without island and thus adds. Yet again, why can the jump from the boss to ones self kill you if you even move a pixel backwards (or rather the game things you did, essentially killing you from the boss jumping to you). Once again requiring slight adaption to be safe: move slightly forward when he jumps to you to not self kill.

Some ideas for changes:

1. reduce boss hp by 20% across the board

2. adjust islands (and other geometry which blocks movement, hello stalactite) or better yet, change the traversal mechanic in general

3. adjust instabilities for this fight, some of them really should not be present.While on this issue : either remove Sugar Rush for this fractal, or adjust so the effect of the aoes remain in sync

4. change the add lines during phases to a fixed timer after which a player is selected to prevent resets

Edited July 25, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Fueki.4753]

42 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

A.) massive access to boons for everyone

B.) massive increase in dps on all classes/players (again thanks to now guaranteed access to offensive boons) and a general increase in output due to drop in input requirements (aka easier rotations and simplification of classes)

C.) massive easy access to defensive boons

I don't know about you, but I rarely see these in T1 and T2 groups.

[LichOverlord.6329]

On 7/25/2023 at 5:52 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

This fractal (or rather strike, given all the indicators we have that this was originally intended to be a strike) is the result of having to adapt to massive power creep the game has been subjected to first and foremost as well as lack of QA testing.

A.) massive access to boons for everyone -> design a fight where tons of movement is involved to again try to reduce boons present

Net Result: melee hate design and disadvantage to classes with less movement skills

B.) massive increase in dps on all classes/players (again thanks to now guaranteed access to offensive boons) and a general increase in output due to drop in input requirements (aka easier rotations and simplification of classes) -> massive hit point sponge requirements

Net Result: fight takes longer under ideal circumstances, which it is designed around. Non ideal circumstances fall behind even more than before

C.) massive easy access to defensive boons -> tons of instant kill mechanics because anything else can get healed through by now

Net Result: a lot more do or die design

As to the bugs, those have been covered by now. This fight has far more to do with learn to work around the bugs, than actually learn to complete the fight. In that regard it is similar to HTCM, learn to transition properly at 66 and 33 (and pray none of your teammates gets ripped at 33 giving the boss regeneration). Not a good spot to be in design wise.

Most of the things above can be solved via composition: bring 2 offensive alac (spectre or scourge both work), bring 2 qdps (QFB is fine, Qharb works too), bring 1 pure dps. Healers are not needed, given you can regenerate to 100% during damage phases and most other stuff will kill you anyway (plus you really don't want your healer to have to do a delayed add).

The buggy fight can not.

1. Proper targeting of the 1 skill is annoying at best, frustrating at worst (even if the idea to move out is cool) and so is the delay of being able to weapon swap out of the special action kit (why is this not done via the special action key at any point in time?). Worse if you are in some shroud or kit while activating the special action key, now you have to first leave your own kit to be allowed to drop the special action kit via weapon swap (again, why can't we go in and out with the special action key, it's been done before).

2. Having to share or take over the beams for adds during phases is a good idea, and is totally lost by stupid delay design which ultimately means everyone has to just stop moving once a phase starts.

3. Phase 3 eventually just becomes a race to finish the fight, I do like the "safe" spot without island and thus adds. Yet again, why can the jump from the boss to ones self kill you if you even move a pixel backwards (or rather the game things you did, essentially killing you from the boss jumping to you). Once again requiring slight adaption to be safe: move slightly forward when he jumps to you to not self kill.

Some ideas for changes:

1. reduce boss hp by 20% across the board

2. adjust islands (and other geometry which blocks movement, hello stalactite) or better yet, change the traversal mechanic in general

3. adjust instabilities for this fight, some of them really should not be present.While on this issue : either remove Sugar Rush for this fractal, or adjust so the effect of the aoes remain in sync

4. change the add lines during phases to a fixed timer after which a player is selected to prevent resets

You're absolutely right, and it's horrid especially on low-tier fractals, where the power creep isn't as apparent because most people running them won't be running full ascended, runes, etc., and as such will end up just hitting these design issues and not be able to reasonably overcome them, especially if they don't have access to expansions.

This fractal really serves to highlight how huge an issue power creep has become in this game, to the point where even level sync doesn't really matter anymore. I hope with the new expansion they try and take steps to remedy this - I'm not saying stat squish, per-se, as other MMOs with this problem like FFXIV and WoW have done in the past, but they need to do something to address this issue.

Maybe instead of nerfing necromancer, mesmer, druid, etc. and making every class have access to alacrity and quickness, the balance team should instead focus on, well... balancing the game, and moving it away from the toxic meta of insanely overtuned healing/dps, one-shot wipe mechanics, and boon stacking reliance. That would be a good start to getting the game in a healthier place going forward, especially if they plan to keep making expansions after this next one.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

On 7/24/2023 at 1:54 PM, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Don't forget guys... more health = more content. And it's acceptable to beta test for ANet so they can save money on QA team 🥳

The boss has 40m+ health, therefore it counts as 2 Fractals, right? Work smarter, not harder.

[Nimris.3781]

On 7/25/2023 at 11:52 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

This fractal (or rather strike, given all the indicators we have that this was originally intended to be a strike) is the result of having to adapt to massive power creep the game has been subjected to first and foremost as well as lack of QA testing.

A.) massive access to boons for everyone -> design a fight where tons of movement is involved to again try to reduce boons present

Net Result: melee hate design and disadvantage to classes with less movement skills

 

2 hours ago, LichOverlord.6329 said:

You're absolutely right, and it's horrid especially on low-tier fractals, where the power creep isn't as apparent because most people running them won't be running full ascended, runes, etc., and as such will end up just hitting these design issues and not be able to reasonably overcome them, especially if they don't have access to expansions.

This fractal really serves to highlight how huge an issue power creep has become in this game, to the point where even level sync doesn't really matter anymore. I hope with the new expansion they try and take steps to remedy this - I'm not saying stat squish, per-se, as other MMOs with this problem like FFXIV and WoW have done in the past, but they need to do something to address this issue.

powercreep? what is this nonesense? over last few years (and since Sunqua Peak release) we already had each viable dps hit ~36k+ dps mark with some of them reaching up to 40k. what changed is viablility of classes, we no longer run Sunqua with 3x scourge as nearly any spec can play there with success (even power classes). this is the best change they have done so far - play whatever you want. Anet seems to target 40k as their go-to dps for everyone and this is perfect spot 👍

This 43m hp is result of incompetent dev, not power creep.  In sunqua you have 2x 15m, for Light Ai you can hit 20-22k dps, Dark Ai 30-35k dps.  thats on average 25-28k dps over 30m hp.        Kanaxai?  43m with less than 20k dps due to all the waiting.   result is that you can complete Sunqua in about 6minutes while Silent Surf takes ~11minutes + First Mate Dolus. i dont remember having my dps doubled to justify twice as long fight

Besides have you ever seen actual power creep? in WoW they went from ~20,000 hp to 5,000,000 hp on players with dps hitting up to 300-500k dps. that was like 500x more over few expansions and they run into number storage issues. at some point one of their bosses under some circumstances could hit over 2^31hp breaking encounter. since they couldnt bypass this in any other way, next tier last boss was healing 3 times to full hp over entire fight (as a temporary solution) and next expansion had squish.

Also, permament Quickness and Alacrity absolutely must stay.  playing with quick/alac droping constantly is terrible, rotation becomes mess, cd's dont match anymore you start to interrupt casts as some have quickness some dont - this is terrible gameplay and thankfully Anet realizes that and they are adamant on keeping quick/alac as it is now.

[Cyninja.2954]

14 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

 

powercreep? what is this nonesense? over last few years (and since Sunqua Peak release) we already had each viable dps hit ~36k+ dps mark with some of them reaching up to 40k. what changed is viablility of classes, we no longer run Sunqua with 3x scourge as nearly any spec can play there with success (even power classes). this is the best change they have done so far - play whatever you want. Anet seems to target 40k as their go-to dps for everyone and this is perfect spot 👍

Yes powercreep. The benchmark used to be sub 30k with early HoT (except elementalist).

This increased to 35k around late HoT, early PoF.

Towards the end of IBS, early EoD, it was close to 40k. Now it's close to 45k. Not sure what 40k you are talking about, multiple builds bench mid 40s atm and this is bound to increase to high 40s, low 50s with weapon availability going up (already seen in the weekend beta). You have to look past the outliers or large hitbox benchmarks and keep an eye on where the majority of builds land. 

Quick dps reaching 40k dps, ease of access to boons, healing amount increases, better stat sets all did their part too.

14 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

This 43m hp is result of incompetent dev, not power creep.  In sunqua you have 2x 15m, for Light Ai you can hit 20-22k dps, Dark Ai 30-35k dps.  thats on average 25-28k dps over 30m hp.        Kanaxai?  43m with less than 20k dps due to all the waiting.   result is that you can complete Sunqua in about 6minutes while Silent Surf takes ~11minutes + First Mate Dolus. i dont remember having my dps doubled to justify twice as long fight

 

14 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

Besides have you ever seen actual power creep? in WoW they went from ~20,000 hp to 5,000,000 hp on players with dps hitting up to 300-500k dps. that was like 500x more over few expansions and they run into number storage issues. at some point one of their bosses under some circumstances could hit over 2^31hp breaking encounter. since they couldnt bypass this in any other way, next tier last boss was healing 3 times to full hp over entire fight (as a temporary solution) and next expansion had squish.

Big numbers biiiig.

Power creep is dependant on relative changes. Increasing damage times 500 means little if you also increase hitpoints by 500. Sure it invalidates all older content, but if your game is designed that way that only the latest expansion is relevant, that matters little. That's how WoW is designed. Correct, the stat squishes where done due to technical necessity, not game play reasons.

In case of Guild Wars 2, content breaks at specific damage breakpoints. Early HoT raids are designed with around 25k dps in mind (benchmark dps, actual fight dps will be lower). Bring more than 30k and many fight designs start to break appart. World bosses which nearly instant phase (making adjustments necessary, remember the hitpoint increase?) is the equivalent in open world content.

Phasing Gorseval, 1 red orb cycle VG, solo Deimos on last Saul, no cc Q2, etc. All of those "strategies" are based around pumping hard enough to avoid mechanics. This used to actually take effort (at least somewhat) and not just be based around being present.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[rotten.9753]

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

This increased to 35k around late HoT, early PoF.

I think you're forgetting about Weaver and Renegade

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, rotten.9753 said:

I think you're forgetting about Weaver and Renegade

I did mention outliers. Weaver was large target, renegade was condi.

Yes, we've had outlier builds always break the ceiling. Old condi berserker with multihit firefields, large hitbox ele builds, firebrand and scourge on release, etc.

Those same outliers are now at above 45k reaching above 50k and closing in on mid 50k dps during the weapon master beta.

EDIT:

but to not get into a huge discussion about this, there is a great website where one can double check how damage has developed: wingman. For anyone who cares, check different eras for damage done to bosses and compare.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[rotten.9753]

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

but to not get into a huge discussion about this, there is a great website where one can double check how damage has developed: wingman. For anyone who cares, check different eras for damage done to bosses and compare.

This doesn't take into account how overall skill level of average wingman's uploader changed throughout the time. Not to mention uploading only good dps logs and greeding dps just for this. We already know the wingman's data is far from ANet's data based on the mech popularity.

[Cyninja.2954]

6 minutes ago, rotten.9753 said:

This doesn't take into account how overall skill level of average wingman's uploader changed throughout the time. Not to mention uploading only good dps logs and greeding dps just for this. We already know the wingman's data is far from ANet's data based on the mech popularity.

All true, not relevant to show power creep added into the game since it would affect all level of players, especially the stronger ones. 

Since wingman shows more than just the top 1%, but rather a range of players, we can see a power increase across the entire spectrum of players and can extrapolate from there.

The rest is fill in the dots with forum threads about content being to easy in open world, noticing meta events completing way faster, actions taken by the developers to counteract the power creep (as mentioned boss hitpoint adjustments for exmaple), etc. For players who are paying attention and which have been involved in content, the power creep has been very notice able.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Nimris.3781]

11 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Yes powercreep. The benchmark used to be sub 30k with early HoT (except elementalist).

thats irrelevant, back than there were no cm's, almost no raids, only 1 elite spec per class and they were not well balanced, alacrity was so much different, their spec design changed a lot since than and so on...

11 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

This increased to 35k around late HoT, early PoF.

Towards the end of IBS, early EoD, it was close to 40k. [...]

thats more relevant, but not entirely correct. earely-mid IBS already had few ~40k spec's, late IBS nerfed some of them ( e.g chrono, rene) and EoD introduced just more ~40k specs. since EoD we were sticking to 36-40k. also thats very close to what i wrote (unless you nitpick about 35k vs 36k).

 PoF (late especially - IBS) and EoD is good comparison as it already had raids, fractal cm's, strikes and their class design got a clear direction (making boons more accessible, making all dps specs viable, reducing boon target limit to 5, balancing healers etc.)

11 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

[...]     Now it's close to 45k. Not sure what 40k you are talking about, multiple builds bench mid 40s atm and this is bound to increase to high 40s, low 50s with weapon availability going up (already seen in the weekend beta). You have to look past the outliers or large hitbox benchmarks and keep an eye on where the majority of builds land. 

Quick dps reaching 40k dps, ease of access to boons, healing amount increases, better stat sets all did their part too.

no quick is currently reaching 40k, that was temporal anomaly and weapon mastery beta is irrelevant here, it was just to see how it works, there was no number testing done yet. besides we dont know how they balance it, how rune changes affect balance etc. so unless you can foresee future, thats just guessing and doomposting.

also you yourself wrote "You have to look past the outliers or large hitbox benchmark" and in next sentence bring 40k quick, lol.

 

with all that cleared,  since PoF/IBS to EoD average dps went from ~36k to ~40k. recent balance patch (thats literally only 1 month old) did unnecessarily bring few specs up to ~43-44k, but they are obviously not gonna change that, they have patch ready for expansion so if they are not willing to hotfix Kanaxai hp, balancing classes is off the table as well.

so the ~10% "powercreep" (oh the horror). please tell me again, how does that justify 43m hp on Kanaxai? (compered to Sunqua 2x 15m or Shattered 5,5m, 6m, 10m?). its worth noting that Kanaxai has no checkpoint (Sunqua 2 phases means there is "checkpoint" between them) and Kanaxai has much more splits/time wasting mechanics

Edited July 27, 2023 by Nimris.3781

[Cyninja.2954]

19 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

thats irrelevant, back than there were no cm's, almost no raids, only 1 elite spec per class and they were not well balanced, alacrity was so much different, their spec design changed a lot since than and so on...

The first 3-4 raid wings are irrelevant? The first fractal CM is irrelevant?

Quote

thats more relevant, but not entirely correct. earely-mid IBS already had few ~40k spec's, late IBS nerfed some of them ( e.g chrono, rene) and EoD introduced just more ~40k specs. since EoD we were sticking to 36-40k. also thats very close to what i wrote (unless you nitpick about 35k vs 36k).

That's quite a jump you are doing there. IBS released 4 years after HoT. It did have a "few" 40k dps specs and EoD did introduce more. The power creep was slower then but still present. That's the issue. Now it's present and speeding up in order to sell content.

Quote

PoF (late especially - IBS) and EoD is good comparison as it already had raids, fractal cm's, strikes and their class design got a clear direction (making boons more accessible, making all dps specs viable, reducing boon target limit to 5, balancing healers etc.)

Nightmare fractal released in 2016 with Crack in the Ice. Shattered Observatory released on 2017 with One Path Ends. That's the majority of fractal CMs releasing, not to mention raids, during a time where dps was at most mid 30s. I'd say the "majority" of fractal CMs where already released compared to today, given those fractals where actually fractals.

Quote

no quick is currently reaching 40k, that was temporal anomaly and weapon mastery beta is irrelevant here, it was just to see how it works, there was no number testing done yet. besides we dont know how they balance it, how rune changes affect balance etc. so unless you can foresee future, thats just guessing and doomposting.

True, qde was nerfed just now and qfb was too. Most qdps are in the 32-34k spot with easy rotations. That's still approximately where pure dps classes where at mid HoT when the majority of instanced content (besides strikes) was already in the game.

As to testing, you might have not done any, I know enough people who did. Now consider this: will the next expansion leave classes:

A. at higher power levels than now

B. equal power levels compared to now

C. lower power levels than now

after nerfs have been done to individual weapons (if any nerfs are done, which is already not assured. So we are already relying on nerfs to not power creep)? Chances are very high we will either see A or B happen, likely to prevent full on 50-55k dps builds.

Quote

with all that cleared,  since PoF/IBS to EoD average dps went from ~36k to ~40k. recent balance patch (thats literally only 1 month old) did unnecessarily bring few specs up to ~43-44k, but they are obviously not gonna change that, they have patch ready for expansion so if they are not willing to hotfix Kanaxai hp, balancing classes is off the table as well.

A few? Let's summarize:

We are seeing the almost same amount of power creep in 1 year since (and including EoD launch) EoD numerical that we saw in almost 4 years prior (which was already power crept) with the next step already on the way (weapon mastery). If you think that this is ever going to get nerfed back down you are delusional. The "best" net outcome after SotO would be status quo but rest assured mid 40k or high 40k will be the new norm if only because players hate having stuff nerfed.

Quote

so the ~10% "powercreep" (oh the horror). please tell me again, how does that justify 43m hp on Kanaxai? (compered to Sunqua 2x 15m or Shattered 5,5m, 6m, 10m?). its worth noting that Kanaxai has no checkpoint (Sunqua 2 phases means there is "checkpoint" between them) and Kanaxai has much more splits/time wasting mechanics

I already said power creep is relative and situational. 10% is a huge amount for a game which is designed around horizontal progression. It's even more for a game which is already power crept past most contents design, so I am really unsure why you are laughing this off as insignificant.

10% power creep within 1 year after already 10-15% power creep with the previous expansion is even more. Percentages stack eventually. That's how we got from low 30k dps builds in early HoT (and the first raids) to low to mid 40k dps builds (and mid to high 40k dps builds post SotO unless the developers reverse their stance, which we have no indication that they intend to given power creep is their way of making the game more accessible). Increments of power creep nicely added into the game piece by piece. Once again, easily seen on wingman for anyone who cares or wants to bother with actual data.

I never said this justifies the 43 million, even if the fight is already doable and completed and the changes are a good start. It does show what the developers consider in regards to design though and in order to deal with current, and near future power levels.

Edited July 28, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Nephalem.8921]

If you want to look at powercreep you have to look at the whole picture and not just individual dps benchmarks. While dps benchmarks themselves did not change that much from 30 to 40k the support creep increases group dps far more. Before eod players required banners, spirits or buffs like spotter/ap to reach their benchmarks. This is not the case anymore which resulted in a big jump in group dps.

Another big jump was the removal of the 0dps supports like chrono and the addition of the original fb ren meta. Current supports can race pure dps on bosses. When nightmare released you still played with a chrono who did almost no damage and with a low dps warrior for banners and sometimes even a low dps druid for buffs. Thats just 2 pure dps and 2 ~18k dps specs. Now the banner position is not needed at all anymore on top of supports doing far more dps. This is where most of the creep stems from. Not the individual benchmarks. Compare a 40k spec from 2019 to one from today while the 2019 played without spotter, frost spirit, ap, empower allies or banners. Dps would be much closer to 30k or in reapers case far below it.

There was a lot of power creep. Support creep which increased the group dps by a lot.

[Nimris.3781]

7 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The first 3-4 raid wings are irrelevant? The first fractal CM is irrelevant?

7 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

That's quite a jump you are doing there. IBS released 4 years after HoT. It did have a "few" 40k dps specs and EoD did introduce more. The power creep was slower then but still present. That's the issue. Now it's present and speeding up in order to sell content.

i am not going to compare current state of the balance to balance that was present dekade ago.     content is relevant, but your "under 30k bench 8 years ago" is completly irrelevant here. just to remind you that Alacrity back than wasnt a boon, had different values and got changed later in PoF to what we see now. one of the reasons why HoT and early PoF balance is now irrelevant.

also game (as whole) has changed a lot during PoF/IBS, like:  removing multiple CC consumables/boundles in fractals, drastically nerfing power dps burst (SLB/DH mainly), buffing exposed for condi (power 30% condi 100%) and than nerfing it to 10%/20%, EoD nerfing Epidemic, introducing new specs etc. even players skill, build & guide accessibility becomes a factor for such a long period

besides people dont care how game balance looked like 8 years ago, it was such a rollercoaster since than. people care about recent stuff, 1 or 2 years ago, maybe 3. so refering to EoD/IBS stuff is fine, but going past that is moving back multiple eras and different states of game and benchamarks become incomparable.

 

12 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

True, qde was nerfed just now and qfb was too. Most qdps are in the 32-34k spot with easy rotations. That's still approximately where pure dps classes where at mid HoT when the majority of instanced content (besides strikes) was already in the game.

once again, no one cares how game balance looked like 8 years ago. also your majority is 2 raid wings (no cm modes) and maybe 1 cm fractal depending on what mid HoT means. stop living in 2015, we are now in 2023.

 

12 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

As to testing, you might have not done any, I know enough people who did. Now consider this: will the next expansion leave classes:

A. at higher power levels than now

B. equal power levels compared to now

C. lower power levels than now

12 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

A few? Let's summarize:

We are seeing the almost same amount of power creep in 1 year since (and including EoD launch) EoD numerical that we saw in almost 4 years prior (which was already power crept) with the next step already on the way (weapon mastery). If you think that this is ever going to get nerfed back down you are delusional. The "best" net outcome after SotO would be status quo but rest assured mid 40k or high 40k will be the new norm if only because players hate having stuff nerfed.

mid to high 40k? ...what?    gw2 does as much as it can to keep older content relevant. sure everything gets easier with time as we get more tools/specs/skill to overcome challange, but our gear and stats doesnt go up and up. after they clear mess created with new rune system and weapon mastery, things will go back to "more or less 40k" dps.

i did testing for classes i know, had a lot of fun on some of them ( like rene + gs or slb + hammer)  and for me it was clear that SLB equiping hammer from untamed and having all skills in permament unleashed state doing... that was 47k dps? was definitely unintended. also some classes got nothing (dps wise) from new weapon combinations, like mesmer. so option B) outliers will be cut to stay close to 40k

you see how Silent Surf was poorly tested, full of obvious bugs etc. and here you try to convince me that they did number testing across all spec/weapon combinations. they obviously didnt, just like with beta before EoD, they teased us with new stuff that they will keep on balancing for next 6 months or so.

 

12 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

10% power creep within 1 year after already 10-15% power creep with the previous expansion is even more. Percentages stack eventually. That's how we got from low 30k dps builds in early HoT (and the first raids) to low to mid 40k dps builds (and mid to high 40k dps builds post SotO unless the developers reverse their stance, which we have no indication that they intend to given power creep is their way of making the game more accessible)

again, stop living in the past that happened almost 10 years ago, you are missing multiple elements that happened inbetween. you are blindly following benchmark numbers and keep on bringing it up, but what about exposed nerf? 30%/100% -> 10%/20% thats subsential nerf to dps that benchamarks doesnt show.

 

13 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I never said this justifies the 43 million, even if the fight is already doable and completed and the changes are a good start. It does show what the developers consider in regards to design though and in order to deal with current, and near future power levels.

looking at vast evidence that Silent Surf was originally strike mission and got converted to fractal (as you mention few posts earlier), its way more likely that devs didnt rebalance hp and 43m was intended for 10man content. 17.5m on T1 tell a lot as well, its not their design goal for near future, but incompetence of team that developed fractal and QA.

 

going back to main topic, what you advocate for? because at this point i am lost, you keep on bringing HoT or boon accessibility thats irrelevant here. Sunqua that got released during IBS, was well balanced, AI is still challanging and fun, but not HP sponge. Kanaxai in simmilar game state feels horrible and is hp sponge. its not "powercreep" that caused that.

i clearly stated multiple times that hp on Kanaxai got way out of hand and should be noticibly reduced. i dont want to have next fractal boss have 60m or 80m hp, regardless of what follows what - benchmarks hp of bosses or boss hp follow benchamarks.

[Cyninja.2954]

14 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

i am not going to compare current state of the balance to balance that was present dekade ago.     content is relevant, but your "under 30k bench 8 years ago" is completly irrelevant here. just to remind you that Alacrity back than wasnt a boon, had different values and got changed later in PoF to what we see now. one of the reasons why HoT and early PoF balance is now irrelevant.

also game (as whole) has changed a lot during PoF/IBS, like:  removing multiple CC consumables/boundles in fractals, drastically nerfing power dps burst (SLB/DH mainly), buffing exposed for condi (power 30% condi 100%) and than nerfing it to 10%/20%, EoD nerfing Epidemic, introducing new specs etc. even players skill, build & guide accessibility becomes a factor for such a long period

besides people dont care how game balance looked like 8 years ago, it was such a rollercoaster since than. people care about recent stuff, 1 or 2 years ago, maybe 3. so refering to EoD/IBS stuff is fine, but going past that is moving back multiple eras and different states of game and benchamarks become incomparable.

Yet a majority of the content was added 4-8 years ago. When was the last taid wing added?

See you keep talking about how the game keeps old content relevant, but that at the same time state that balance from when that content was added is irrelevant.

14 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

once again, no one cares how game balance looked like 8 years ago. also your majority is 2 raid wings (no cm modes) and maybe 1 cm fractal depending on what mid HoT means. stop living in 2015, we are now in 2023.

 

mid to high 40k? ...what?    gw2 does as much as it can to keep older content relevant. sure everything gets easier with time as we get more tools/specs/skill to overcome challange, but our gear and stats doesnt go up and up. after they clear mess created with new rune system and weapon mastery, things will go back to "more or less 40k" dps.

Nothing you state here works with your claim that past balance is irrelevant.

Also I don't understand your 40k fixation. We have more than 15 builds above 40k atm and 6-7 of them are at 42-43k already.

14 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

i did testing for classes i know, had a lot of fun on some of them ( like rene + gs or slb + hammer)  and for me it was clear that SLB equiping hammer from untamed and having all skills in permament unleashed state doing... that was 47k dps? was definitely unintended. also some classes got nothing (dps wise) from new weapon combinations, like mesmer. so option B) outliers will be cut to stay close to 40k

you see how Silent Surf was poorly tested, full of obvious bugs etc. and here you try to convince me that they did number testing across all spec/weapon combinations. they obviously didnt, just like with beta before EoD, they teased us with new stuff that they will keep on balancing for next 6 months or so.

again, stop living in the past that happened almost 10 years ago, you are missing multiple elements that happened inbetween. you are blindly following benchmark numbers and keep on bringing it up, but what about exposed nerf? 30%/100% -> 10%/20% thats subsential nerf to dps that benchamarks doesnt show.

I was refering to benchmarks as comparable and values which more players know. I also mentioned that for actual data and values wingmann is a better resource. The data there supports what I have been saying.

14 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

looking at vast evidence that Silent Surf was originally strike mission and got converted to fractal (as you mention few posts earlier), its way more likely that devs didnt rebalance hp and 43m was intended for 10man content. 17.5m on T1 tell a lot as well, its not their design goal for near future, but incompetence of team that developed fractal and QA.

 

going back to main topic, what you advocate for? because at this point i am lost, you keep on bringing HoT or boon accessibility thats irrelevant here. Sunqua that got released during IBS, was well balanced, AI is still challanging and fun, but not HP sponge. Kanaxai in simmilar game state feels horrible and is hp sponge. its not "powercreep" that caused that.

i clearly stated multiple times that hp on Kanaxai got way out of hand and should be noticibly reduced. i dont want to have next fractal boss have 60m or 80m hp, regardless of what follows what - benchmarks hp of bosses or boss hp follow benchamarks.

I am not advocating for anything. I made a statement on how power creep has sped up and how certain content development follows suit.

You where the one who decided to laugh off the obvious power creep as imaginary, now backpedaling and dancing between "who cares about previous balance" (constantly talking about 8 years ago when we have had multiple instances of power creep since. Nephalem.8921 gave a more detailed explanations of support power creep) and the developers keeping old content relevant, as if those 2 where not exclusive to each other.

I'll take you up on your statemebt btw. I can guarantee you that once SotO releases we will see another increase in output of classes across the board and your 40k assumption will be hilariously out of touch.

[MercurialKuroSludge.8974]

On 7/25/2023 at 4:33 AM, maxwelgm.4315 said:

If reducing HP is a must because they are not able to redesign a fractal after 3 years without releasing any, then just change the CC achievement straight up and reduce the amount of defiance bars that pop, it's not nearly a big of a deal as people make it out to be. And while we're at it, how about showing eligibility for the title on your bar like every other single encounter has done so far? Heck, they could even add a defiance bar to the ghosts that steal your boons and count that towards the achievement, while also allowing some counterplay (which I guess is forbidden for this fractal though, they seemed adamant about making it a bad FFXIV boss).

He made a very bad post under mine about Visual Clarity a while ago.
Literally next patch, Anet gave him a big middle finger because it proved every "git gud" statement he made wrong, they did basically everything I asked for, because surprise surprise, I actually put some thought into my post.

He's not here to defend Anet's design flaws, hes just here to talk down to everyone, because he views it as a personal attack against him, for how we dare to try and invalidate his "success on this properly difficult boss".

The fact of the matter is, the new Fractal is more frustrating than challenging to quite a sizable chunk of the playerbase.
Whether its a nerf to HP or some mechanics that go against the rest of the games design, or screw over melees, or bugs, what have you.
Whatever needs to happen, needs to happen so ppl can actually enjoy new content.

Edited July 29, 2023 by MercurialKuroSludge.8974

[Nimris.3781]

18 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Yet a majority of the content was added 4-8 years ago. When was the last taid wing added?

majority? Sunqua? IBS strikes? EoD Strikes?! you are ignoring like 50% of current endgame content

18 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

See you keep talking about how the game keeps old content relevant, but that at the same time state that balance from when that content was added is irrelevant.

again... when was content added is irrelevant to game/class balance.    boss encounters didnt went through multiple changes/patches (aside from minor bug fixes). players tho? every few months we get big balance patch. we also got multiple huge game-system changes making benchmarks incomparable. like:

1. nerf to exposed
2. nerf to trap stacking/precasts
3. removal of banners/ spirits
4. run rework
5. addition of alac, changing it to boon

i am probably missing some here, but what you dont understand about "you cant compare benchmarks from different states of game, like before and after removal of banners/spirits"?

18 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Nothing you state here works with your claim that past balance is irrelevant.

If you dont understand how to compare data sets and draw conclusions form it, than there is nothing i can do about it. there is a reason why wingman data added "exposed nerf",  "run rework" or "EoD release" etc. to some data sets. It marks the end of certain Era and data sets before/after differ a lot and should not be ever compared.

18 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Also I don't understand your 40k fixation. We have more than 15 builds above 40k atm and 6-7 of them are at 42-43k already.

nice round number, it could write 41k or 40,739 dps as well, but does it matter? whats wrong with 40k?

18 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I was refering to benchmarks as comparable and values which more players know. I also mentioned that for actual data and values wingmann is a better resource. The data there supports what I have been saying.

once again, benchmarks are not comparable over such a long period of time and with multiple game system changes, the same applies to data sets. however since you insist on it i went over to look on fractal data ignoring all the flaws it has (like data not being "representative" of population). I was looking at q3 of "squad dps" ( that equals kill time so it should be good indicator of your "powercreep" )

didnt look much on AI as sunqua is new ( and few other reasons), Skorvald and Ensylos have long interphases taxing fight time and Artsariiv has reflect making results unreliable. mixed feeling about Arkk, probably too many phases to show anything, so we are left with Mama and Siax.

so what does numbers tell? there are few Era's you can notice happen mostly due to big changes, sometimes rebalance etc. its more like a rollercoaster than constant powercreep.

1. big jump happens in 2019, so dps from 2017 and 2018 is noticibly lower. i dont want to check every patch notes but i guess something along alacrity being added as boon, rework to some specs, rework to runes, 0 dps supports, probably learning of encounters as well?
2. Oct 2019 sets new top, about 70k for Mama and about 90k for Siax, since than we went through multiple ups and downs
3. nerf to precasts/prestacking impacting overall dps, droping to 63k for Mama and 85k for Siax
4. fractal pot fix with 67k Mama and 87k Siax
5. exposed nerf, droping to 57k for Mama and 80k for Siax
6. current patch after multiple rebalancing its about 70k for Mama and 98k for Siax

i did not go over every single patch as loading all the data from given patch takes sometimes really long, but looking at kill times i cant really find that powercreep that you mention everytime... there are ups and downs for sure, but overall? not really. after 2019 everything was oscillating around simmilar numbers. what did change tho is that your average kill time got closer to top runs with removal or nerf of multiple gimicks (bundles, exposed etc.)

 

18 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You where the one who decided to laugh off the obvious power creep as imaginary, now backpedaling and dancing between "who cares about previous balance" (constantly talking about 8 years ago when we have had multiple instances of power creep since. Nephalem.8921 gave a more detailed explanations of support power creep) and the developers keeping old content relevant, as if those 2 where not exclusive to each other.

i still laugh at the use of word "powercreep". in most games this means going in multiple orders of magnitude, from thousands to milions and so on. here you freak out over 5-10% increase on dps (also ignoring multiple other changes that doesnt support your claim)

Nephalem.8921 is correct that dps-supports has seen biggest improvement. but he also points out that you should look at whole picture, not just benchmarks. we dont have any noticible dps powercreep, but removal of 0-dps supports definitely impacted squad dps ( i guess that can be attributed to 2019). this is also what data supports, a lot of changes sure, but powercreep? not really.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Nimris.3781

[Cyninja.2954]

6 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

majority? Sunqua? IBS strikes? EoD Strikes?! you are ignoring like 50% of current endgame content

IBS strikes, you mean the ones which can be afked through which released undertuned to begin with? Sunqua, 1 boss (okay let's count this as 2 since it has 2 phases) versus 6. Even now counting 1 more we are at 3 boss encounters from 9.

EoD strikes can be considered well tuned, versus how many raid bosses (which by now are undertuned)?

6 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

again... when was content added is irrelevant to game/class balance.    boss encounters didnt went through multiple changes/patches (aside from minor bug fixes). players tho? every few months we get big balance patch. we also got multiple huge game-system changes making benchmarks incomparable. like:

1. nerf to exposed
2. nerf to trap stacking/precasts
3. removal of banners/ spirits
4. run rework
5. addition of alac, changing it to boon

i am probably missing some here, but what you dont understand about "you cant compare benchmarks from different states of game, like before and after removal of banners/spirits"?

Sure I can compare, if I understand how changes impacted the data and which conclusions to draw.

1. Nerf to exposed -

Normalisation across builds. If the benchmark remains similar or close, the damage was added elsewhere

2. Nerf to trap stacking/precast

Same as exposed, if damage remains as high or higher, it just means the gimick was folded into the base damage. Having to do less for similar previous output is power creep

3. Banners/spirits

Same as above, more output for less. Removing banners/spirits actually resulted in a short term output reduction. Which was immediately remedied a balance patch later. Even more relevant for fractals given banners and spirits where not always a thing in a 5 mann setting, strait power creep due to homogenisation of raid and fractal builds

4. Rune rework

for all intents and purposes only relevant since the resulting rune setups where more powerful. The same will happen again with the next expansion, where mix and matching stats with 6 piece bonus will get improved. Power creep

5. Alac/quickness boon changes

The initial nerf to alac from 66% was significant and has been folded into builds and class power by now. The change to make it a boon merely madenit easier to upkeep permament (ppwer creep) as have recent changes to make access to quickness and alac easier

So having gone through each individual "change" and realizing that the average (and often top end) output usually went up after, how is this not power creep?

6 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

If you dont understand how to compare data sets and draw conclusions form it, than there is nothing i can do about it. there is a reason why wingman data added "exposed nerf",  "run rework" or "EoD release" etc. to some data sets. It marks the end of certain Era and data sets before/after differ a lot and should not be ever compared.

Sure, they can be compared if one knows what to look out for.

Still if you don't want to compare individual dps, then compare clear time. That will always be an indicator of power creep. There problem solved.

6 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

nice round number, it could write 41k or 40,739 dps as well, but does it matter? whats wrong with 40k?

Aproximately a 5-7% error, that's what.

6 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

once again, benchmarks are not comparable over such a long period of time and with multiple game system changes, the same applies to data sets. however since you insist on it i went over to look on fractal data ignoring all the flaws it has (like data not being "representative" of population). I was looking at q3 of "squad dps" ( that equals kill time so it should be good indicator of your "powercreep" )

didnt look much on AI as sunqua is new ( and few other reasons), Skorvald and Ensylos have long interphases taxing fight time and Artsariiv has reflect making results unreliable. mixed feeling about Arkk, probably too many phases to show anything, so we are left with Mama and Siax.

so what does numbers tell? there are few Era's you can notice happen mostly due to big changes, sometimes rebalance etc. its more like a rollercoaster than constant powercreep.

1. big jump happens in 2019, so dps from 2017 and 2018 is noticibly lower. i dont want to check every patch notes but i guess something along alacrity being added as boon, rework to some specs, rework to runes, 0 dps supports, probably learning of encounters as well?
2. Oct 2019 sets new top, about 70k for Mama and about 90k for Siax, since than we went through multiple ups and downs
3. nerf to precasts/prestacking impacting overall dps, droping to 63k for Mama and 85k for Siax
4. fractal pot fix with 67k Mama and 87k Siax
5. exposed nerf, droping to 57k for Mama and 80k for Siax
6. current patch after multiple rebalancing its about 70k for Mama and 98k for Siax

i did not go over every single patch as loading all the data from given patch takes sometimes really long, but looking at kill times i cant really find that powercreep that you mention everytime... there are ups and downs for sure, but overall? not really. after 2019 everything was oscillating around simmilar numbers. what did change tho is that your average kill time got closer to top runs with removal or nerf of multiple gimicks (bundles, exposed etc.)

The average number going up is power creep. Some of it due to removal of gimmicks, the rest due to simplification of classes and power creep of weaker classes.

Also you have a very fractal scewed view. Now look at multiple "endgame" fights across the board and you will soon realize that while fractals see more spikes (which are more designed around short burst phases) the remaining endgame content shows even cleared signs of power creep. 

Funny how this also nicely feeds into the complaints about 100cm, which for now is not as easily burst down and follows other endgame content versus previous fractal design.

6 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

i still laugh at the use of word "powercreep". in most games this means going in multiple orders of magnitude, from thousands to milions and so on. here you freak out over 5-10% increase on dps (also ignoring multiple other changes that doesnt support your claim)

You complain about lack of understanding yet fail to understand that power creep is relative and size of individual numbers is irrelevant.

In fact most of whatvyou wrote paints a picture of someone who doesn't understand power creep as long as it doesn't immediately invalidate content with a lack of perspective for nuance and changes over time.

6 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

Nephalem.8921 is correct that dps-supports has seen biggest improvement. but he also points out that you should look at whole picture, not just benchmarks. we dont have any noticible dps powercreep, but removal of 0-dps supports definitely impacted squad dps ( i guess that can be attributed to 2019). this is also what data supports, a lot of changes sure, but powercreep? not really.

So we had power creep but then we didn't? Which is it, you can't even keep your arguments strait. Also Nephalem.8921 finished with:

Quote

There was a lot of power creep. Support creep which increased the group dps by a lot.

in case you overread or only glanced at what he wrote, the majority of that support creep came from 2019 and EoD release (support creep) according to him which places these changes within the last 4 years (with EoD being last year with subsequent changes since then adding on top). How does this differ from what I said so far? Oh right, it doesn't.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Nimris.3781]

7 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Sure I can compare, if I understand how changes impacted the data and which conclusions to draw.

1. Nerf to exposed -

Normalisation across builds. If the benchmark remains similar or close, the damage was added elsewhere

benchamarks remain the same without any dmg added elsewere as benchamarks dont include exposed bonus. and wingman data does shows drop in squad dps

7 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

2. Nerf to trap stacking/precast

Same as exposed, if damage remains as high or higher, it just means the gimick was folded into the base damage. Having to do less for similar previous output is power creep

bencharks dont include this type of precasting/prestacking either! output of classes was the same but the actual clear time slowed again as you couldnt use this trick to squeeze in bonus dmg. there was no "powercreep" in it.

i am like few lines into your post and i already doubt you understand how these changes impacted the data/benchamarks

7 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

3. Banners/spirits

Same as above, more output for less. Removing banners/spirits actually resulted in a short term output reduction. Which was immediately remedied a balance patch later. Even more relevant for fractals given banners and spirits where not always a thing in a 5 mann setting, strait power creep due to homogenisation of raid and fractal builds

almost nothing was remedied balance patch later. some classes got +5% crit rate, not always in correct trait line *cought warriors condi line cought*. 5% from spirits was never given back in any form, same with 150 ferocity from Renegade. also you did not need exactly banners, as SLB provided spotter (removed as well) and was often present in fracs.

not everything affected fracs, true but net result was again, overall drop in dps of everyone.

7 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

4. Rune rework

for all intents and purposes only relevant since the resulting rune setups where more powerful. The same will happen again with the next expansion, where mix and matching stats with 6 piece bonus will get improved. Power creep

have you even watch/read devs talk about current rune rework? they clearly said that "rune sets that miss stat bonus are seen as inferior so they will improve sets that dont have stats on 6th bonus". most commonly used rune sets like scholar or nightmare wont have anything added and we dont even know how relics will look like ( what they have shown wasnt dps oriented so far).  sooo where is that "powercreep"?

7 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

5. Alac/quickness boon changes

The initial nerf to alac from 66% was significant and has been folded into builds and class power by now. The change to make it a boon merely madenit easier to upkeep permament (ppwer creep) as have recent changes to make access to quickness and alac easier

what does easier access to boons have to do with "powercreep"? it does open more build options, make more specs viable and as a result groups are easier to form, more divers. but where is powercreep here? dps cant go over 100% alac uptime anyway...

7 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Sure, they can be compared if one knows what to look out for.

and looking at all above, do you actually know?

 

8 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Aproximately a 5-7% error, that's what.

7%? where? methodology? how calculated? i took all dps specs from snowcrows site, 33 specs in total. mean of highest bench for each spec is 40 789 dps ( i was darn close with my randomly inputed 40739, lol) tho thats unfair metric (very rng based with dmg variance) and we should take their average result ( second, smaller number ).  mean is 40 273dps. median 40 200 dps

excluding top/bottom 5 outlier results in average 40 274 dps. i am sure you gonna hate that results as it shows how wrong you are.

so care to explain that 7%? because my ~40k seems perfectly on spot

8 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The average number going up is power creep. Some of it due to removal of gimmicks, the rest due to simplification of classes and power creep of weaker classes.

how simplification = powercreep? or more importantly, how buffing underperforming classes ended up as powercreep?! o.O

 

8 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Also you have a very fractal scewed view. Now look at multiple "endgame" fights across the board and you will soon realize that while fractals see more spikes (which are more designed around short burst phases) the remaining endgame content shows even cleared signs of power creep. 

we are in "instanced content" section, talking about new fractal boss hp. what should i compare this fight to than? also have you even once considered that average player got much better over so many years?

9 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You complain about lack of understanding yet fail to understand that power creep is relative and size of individual numbers is irrelevant.

In fact most of whatvyou wrote paints a picture of someone who doesn't understand power creep as long as it doesn't immediately invalidate content with a lack of perspective for nuance and changes over time.

thats funny to read, considering how many mistakes you did, both in explaining some changes or calculating average dps of current specs.

i am not even gonna touch on "nuances" part, as you started as someone blindly shouting "benchamarks! benchmarks!", without even acknowledging multiple changes that happened over last years.

9 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

So we had power creep but then we didn't? Which is it, you can't even keep your arguments strait. Also Nephalem.8921 finished with:

Quote

There was a lot of power creep. Support creep which increased the group dps by a lot.

at the end he misused word "powercreep" just like you do in every sentence.  removal of 0-dps spcecs is not powercreep. it does impact overall gameplay and shaped Meta to what we see now, but thats unrelated with "powercreep". if we go with quick-dps instead of heal-quick thats not powercreep either

besides just to remind you, you were screaming about dps powercreep and complaining about 50k dps benches soon.

[Cyninja.2954]

5 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

benchamarks remain the same without any dmg added elsewere as benchamarks dont include exposed bonus. and wingman data does shows drop in squad dps

bencharks dont include this type of precasting/prestacking either! output of classes was the same but the actual clear time slowed again as you couldnt use this trick to squeeze in bonus dmg. there was no "powercreep" in it.

i am like few lines into your post and i already doubt you understand how these changes impacted the data/benchamarks

almost nothing was remedied balance patch later. some classes got +5% crit rate, not always in correct trait line *cought warriors condi line cought*. 5% from spirits was never given back in any form, same with 150 ferocity from Renegade. also you did not need exactly banners, as SLB provided spotter (removed as well) and was often present in fracs.

not everything affected fracs, true but net result was again, overall drop in dps of everyone.

Going to cut this short: ttk has dropped for most "endgame" instanced content over the years. Half of the things you mention here are strait up untrue, or you willfully fixate on 1 part of the terminology given you have no other ground to stand on even when common sense would dictate otherwise.

Quote

7%? where? methodology? how calculated? i took all dps specs from snowcrows site, 33 specs in total. mean of highest bench for each spec is 40 789 dps ( i was darn close with my randomly inputed 40739, lol) tho thats unfair metric (very rng based with dmg variance) and we should take their average result ( second, smaller number ).  mean is 40 273dps. median 40 200 dps

excluding top/bottom 5 outlier results in average 40 274 dps. i am sure you gonna hate that results as it shows how wrong you are.

so care to explain that 7%? because my ~40k seems perfectly on spot

 

and you are excluding top 5 benchmarks because? In a game where highest performance usually gets stacked? Where the discussion is about top performers? Where adding in under-performing builds would shift the mean... yes, makes total sense. You have no way to compare the mean to previous means, unless you factor for a TON of variable which I am sure you did not decide to acquire over the years. You can only check top performing builds versus past top performing builds. While looking at clear times and other factors to support or form a hypothisis.

Top performing builds are sitting at 41-43k, multiple of them. Talking about 40k builds is strait up 5-7% off.

Quote

how simplification = powercreep? or more importantly, how buffing underperforming classes ended up as powercreep?! o.O

Not sure why I should explain simplification and how easier class design and easier rotation is power creep. Higher performance for less work seems kind of self explanatory enough. Power creep does not only need to push the benchmark at the top, it can also do so mid range.

Quote

we are in "instanced content" section, talking about new fractal boss hp. what should i compare this fight to than? also have you even once considered that average player got much better over so many years?

Ah yes, the "average player got better" argument. The last stance to stand on when the data does not support the nonsense one has provided.

The average player did get better because the developers designed the balance patches and game balance for that to occur. That's part of the beauty of the changes: they made a lot of players better without the players actually improving. Magic!

What happened to the majority of content etc? Oh right, you decided to once again move the goal post because actually admitting that the majority of instanced content, which most of you have barely taken part in, was added during a time when game balance was far away from where it is now and that would be a big no no.

Quote

thats funny to read, considering how many mistakes you did, both in explaining some changes or calculating average dps of current specs.

I never calculated average of current specs. Why not go for the median while at it, makes just as much sense.

I was always talking about top performing specs. You suddenly deiciding to muddle in lower damage specs because you forgot to actually check up on where current specs are, but that is not my problem. I've been consistent in what I am talking about: top performance of different eras.

Quote

at the end he misused word "powercreep" just like you do in every sentence.  removal of 0-dps spcecs is not powercreep. it does impact overall gameplay and shaped Meta to what we see now, but thats unrelated with "powercreep". if we go with quick-dps instead of heal-quick thats not powercreep either

He misused the word AND his entire explanation is off too? Did you even bother to re-read read what he wrote?

He is clearly expressing major power creep occurances over multiple instances in the past and that is congruent with the wording at the end.

Quote

besides just to remind you, you were screaming about dps powercreep and complaining about 50k dps benches soon.

Fine, let's wait and see shall we. I am more than happy to let SotO play out. I have quite a bit of faith that the developers will maintain the direction and balance decisions they have been following since EoD.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Nimris.3781]

On 7/30/2023 at 11:22 PM, Cyninja.2954 said:

Going to cut this short: ttk has dropped for most "endgame" instanced content over the years. Half of the things you mention here are strait up untrue, or you willfully fixate on 1 part of the terminology given you have no other ground to stand on even when common sense would dictate otherwise.

you ignore the existance of strike missions all the time and keep on bringing back HoT balance every post. talking about fixate...

also how is me, throwing multiple examples depending on context of how game changed over years, a "fixate on 1 part of terminology"?

On 7/30/2023 at 11:22 PM, Cyninja.2954 said:

and you are excluding top 5 benchmarks because?

how did you lose bottom in "excluding top/bottom 5 outlier"? i removed both, top 5 and bottom 5, meaning i ignored 36k cfb bench as well. removing outliers is simple way of checking if they dont influence final results.

either you didnt read it or just ignored some parts.

Also! you ignored this:

On 7/30/2023 at 7:02 PM, Nimris.3781 said:

i took all dps specs from snowcrows site, 33 specs in total. mean of highest bench for each spec is 40 789 dps ( i was darn close with my randomly inputed 40739, lol) tho thats unfair metric (very rng based with dmg variance) and we should take their average result ( second, smaller number ).  mean is 40 273dps. median 40 200 dps

are you skipping entire paragraph because it proves you wrong? convenient i must say...

beside ignore inconvinient parts you also change stances over what you said, which is:

On 7/27/2023 at 5:53 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

You have to look past the outliers or large hitbox benchmarks and keep an eye on where the majority of builds land. 

On 7/30/2023 at 11:22 PM, Cyninja.2954 said:

In a game where highest performance usually gets stacked? Where the discussion is about top performers? Where adding in under-performing builds would shift the mean... yes, makes total sense. You have no way to compare the mean to previous means, unless you factor for a TON of variable which I am sure you did not decide to acquire over the years. You can only check top performing builds versus past top performing builds. While looking at clear times and other factors to support or form a hypothisis.

Top performing builds are sitting at 41-43k, multiple of them. Talking about 40k builds is strait up 5-7% off.

which group we should talk about now? majority or top?  because you switch them everytime something doesnt fit your argument.

when i was looking at "q3 of clear times", it means i took top results excluding speed clears - you can assume q3 was done by the best performing (dps) specs without grinding kills or abusing gimicks and i was comparing between them.

 

when you wrote:

On 7/27/2023 at 5:53 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

This increased to 35k around late HoT, early PoF.

you were clearly talking about majority, so your average build, not top performer.   also Rotten.9753 points out you forgot about waver and rene to which you reply with 

On 7/27/2023 at 9:04 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

Yes, we've had outlier builds always break the ceiling. Old condi berserker with multihit firefields, large hitbox ele builds, firebrand and scourge on release, etc.

did you forgot what you wrote few posts earlier?   another example of talking about average builds so it fit your argument of sudden powercreep:

On 7/27/2023 at 5:53 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

Towards the end of IBS, early EoD, it was close to 40k.

mid to late IBS we also had chrono or rene easily breaking 40k and there were more (was that cfb? not sure... i dont remember every spec performence). early EoD had multiple 41k+ builds (like virtu ) or some other crazy stuff like... was that Specter breaking 43k barrier in early EoD? or Cata with... i think that was 44k+ on large target.  Habringer and Willbender were also like 41-42k+ at some point on normal target, same with condi Mech, Weaver or Deadeye.

tho we should look past outliers, right? Maybe you should first carefully read what you wrote earlier so you dont contradict yourself?

 

 

On 7/30/2023 at 11:22 PM, Cyninja.2954 said:

Not sure why I should explain simplification and how easier class design and easier rotation is power creep. Higher performance for less work seems kind of self explanatory enough. Power creep does not only need to push the benchmark at the top, it can also do so mid range.

familiar with concept of skill floor and skill ceiling?  giving "Higher performance for less work" (like Mech) = lowering skill floor or skill ceiling (or both), it has nothing to do with powercreep. its all about entry barrier and class learning curve - player skill.

powercreep happens when neither skill floor nor skill ceiling change, but performance goes up.  "same work but better performance for free" <- this is what powercreep looks like, not player skill issues, lol.

also there is no such a thing as "powercreep at mid range". classes that are underperforming and get buffed to be competative are just made "viable" again (like Reaper recently, definitely buffed, working nicely and its definitely not powercreep)

so it seems these definitions are not so self explanatory.

 

On 7/30/2023 at 11:22 PM, Cyninja.2954 said:

The last stance to stand on when the data does not support the nonsense one has provided.

love it, you should read your own sentences carefully. 🤣🤣🤣

have you even once provided any data so far?    because i did check some numbers and it supported my claim that we dont see any real "powercreep". numbers swing up and down, but we are still within simmilar dps or kill time ranges.

 

On 7/30/2023 at 11:22 PM, Cyninja.2954 said:

The average player did get better because the developers designed the balance patches and game balance for that to occur. That's part of the beauty of the changes: they made a lot of players better without the players actually improving. Magic!

you are so delusional if you think that average player skill didnt improve over last few years, let alone 8 years since HoT....

 

On 7/30/2023 at 11:22 PM, Cyninja.2954 said:

I was always talking about top performing specs. You suddenly deiciding to muddle in lower damage specs because you forgot to actually check up on where current specs are, but that is not my problem. I've been consistent in what I am talking about: top performance of different eras.

no, you are not consistent. infact you are straight up lying here, just to remind you:

On 7/27/2023 at 5:53 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

You have to look past the outliers or large hitbox benchmarks and keep an eye on where the majority of builds land. 

i am not gonna quote again all parts where you mention majority performence or about excluding outliers and give examples that should not be taken into account. (weaver, rene etc. )

taking what average dps did in PoF and comparing to top performer of current patch is very, very weak manipulation. you are just wrong about this sudden powercreep and no shenanigans will change that. majority of builds land in 40-41k range and with that target they should slightly buff bottom 3 (cfb, tempest, chrono), bring back few dead specs ( like power rene, lol) and probably cut top 4 specs to be under 42k.

its not the first time we see 42-43k benches and sadly i am sure its not the last time as it seems they cannot balance it properly...

 

On 7/30/2023 at 11:22 PM, Cyninja.2954 said:

He misused the word AND his entire explanation is off too? Did you even bother to re-read read what he wrote?

He is clearly expressing major power creep occurances over multiple instances in the past and that is congruent with the wording at the end.

he explained well what happened in past and is correct about dps-support nearly racing normal dps  (e.g  IBS only had alac-rene with pitiful 27k bench that was crazy grinded and unachievable and now we have few alacs doing 33k+)

but his overall conclusion? not entirely correct. removal of 0-dps supports is not powercreep the same way as killing cele-fb is not reverse-powercreep (negative-powercreep?)  Meta changing =/= powercreep.

 

On 7/30/2023 at 11:22 PM, Cyninja.2954 said:

Fine, let's wait and see shall we. I am more than happy to let SotO play out. I have quite a bit of faith that the developers will maintain the direction and balance decisions they have been following since EoD.

Their balance/design decisions were mostly fine so far, except hp sponges.

this game doesnt need it, because players will avoid anything that is not time efficient or too annoying to do. why run cm100 that has simmilar rewards to other cms but take twice as long and is much easier to wipe?

they should follow simple rule of:    difficulty * time ~ reward

and kanaxai is clearly: difficulty x2,  time x2  with reward =1    <- something doesnt add up here

( and just to be clear, we dont need   difficulty x10,  time x10  with reward =1000,   but a proper mix of "a bit of this a bit of that" with satisfying rewards )

[Cyninja.2954]

13 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

you ignore the existance of strike missions all the time and keep on bringing back HoT balance every post. talking about fixate...

No I am not. You are bringing this back to hoT every time no matter how many times later balance patches are brought up. 

Quote

how did you lose bottom in "excluding top/bottom 5 outlier"? i removed both, top 5 and bottom 5, meaning i ignored 36k cfb bench as well. removing outliers is simple way of checking if they dont influence final results.

either you didnt read it or just ignored some parts.

🤦‍♂️you can't be serious...

Okay, how about we add a couple more not top tier builds to change the average then. More than possible while top end builds are limited. This approach makes 0 sense when talking about how top end performance is pushed. It would make sense if you had the mean for past balance patches, which you do not.

Now, what you CAN do is go to wingmann, take the mean of different eras and compare those, or just look at ttk (which changes invers proportionally to the earlier value). This would bring you back to: past averages where lower than today. You'd obviously have to compare sample sizes, etc. (hint: I am giving you some ttk changes later on since you obviously didn't bother to check them).

I did read this part and I even commented on how this, on its own without more data on the past, is useless to compare. You are essentially comparing current mean dps values with past outliers not accounting for amount of "outliers" at the top (which have increased tremendously).

Quote

which group we should talk about now? majority or top?  because you switch them everytime something doesnt fit your argument.

when i was looking at "q3 of clear times", it means i took top results excluding speed clears - you can assume q3 was done by the best performing (dps) specs without grinding kills or abusing gimicks and i was comparing between them.

 

Everything went up (or rather down, aka shorter). Top tier clear times and average clear times.

Quote

you were clearly talking about majority, so your average build, not top performer.   also Rotten.9753 points out you forgot about waver and rene to which you reply with 

I commented on this already: weaver was large hitbox, rene was condi. 2 Outliers versus how many today? 8? 9? Power and condi.

To simplify: Weaver and renegade of the past where overtuned during those balance cycles, in today's balance setting they'd be fine. That's due to the numbers going up.

Quote

 

early EoD had multiple 41k+ builds (like virtu ) or some other crazy stuff like... was that Specter breaking 43k barrier in early EoD? or Cata with... i think that was 44k+ on large target.  Habringer and Willbender were also like 41-42k+ at some point on normal target, same with condi Mech, Weaver or Deadeye.

tho we should look past outliers, right? Maybe you should first carefully read what you wrote earlier so you dont contradict yourself?

 

Thanks for finally confirming that early EoD had power creep. Took you a while. I've mentioned EoD how many times by now as one of the majory power creep patches? Why am I referencing the release of SotO?

Quote

 

familiar with concept of skill floor and skill ceiling?  giving "Higher performance for less work" (like Mech) = lowering skill floor or skill ceiling (or both), it has nothing to do with powercreep. its all about entry barrier and class learning curve - player skill.

powercreep happens when neither skill floor nor skill ceiling change, but performance goes up.  "same work but better performance for free" <- this is what powercreep looks like, not player skill issues, lol.

also there is no such a thing as "powercreep at mid range". classes that are underperforming and get buffed to be competative are just made "viable" again (like Reaper recently, definitely buffed, working nicely and its definitely not powercreep)

so it seems these definitions are not so self explanatory.

 

You are contradicting yourself here. When the skill floor changes, and the performance goes up without the player improving, that's power creep.

Buffing classes and increasing their performance while making them simpler is a mix of balance and power creep (EDIT: in fact balance can be power creep, depending on which direction the balance takes place. If balancing is constantly done towards to higher power builds bringing weaker builds up, which is a rather common phenomenon in game development and especially MMORPGs, it's synonymous with power creeping the classes. The alternative would be to balance down outliers, which happens far rarer).

If every single class where made to only press 1 button, get 35k dps, that's power creep in class design versus game design (I know the irony here, because this is exactly what happened here with auto attacks getting buffed). Again, you are far to fixated on big numbers must be impressive. There are many forms in which power creep can be achieved, one of them is giving mediocre builds higher output.

Quote

 

love it, you should read your own sentences carefully. 🤣🤣🤣

have you even once provided any data so far?    because i did check some numbers and it supported my claim that we dont see any real "powercreep". numbers swing up and down, but we are still within simmilar dps or kill time ranges.

 

Value Guardian:

PoF: Top: 3m11s  Med: 5m3s

EoD release: Top 2m10s Med: 3m54s

Current: Top:1m55s Med: 3m14s

or how about a more damage Golem style fight with less transitions:

Mursaat:

PoF: Top: 1m35s  Med: 2m38s

EoD release: Top: 1m12s  Med:2m

Current: 1m2s  Med:1m44s

I could go on but I hope you get the picture. Next time take some time and actually read up on "the data" (and this is just since PoF, we aren't even diving into HoT territory here, which you so often like to bring up). Oh and feel free to check any other strike or raid (EDIT: and I just checked, it also applies to fractals, which have far shorter burst windows. So even with all the "nerfs" fights are cleared faster than in the past which had far higher burst windows with unnerfed exposed. Turns out, classes now pump harder than classes did in the past with higher exposed bonus. Not that it matters for fractal bosses, they are phased instant anyway), unless they are severely limited or impacted by mechanics, this holds true for each and every fight. In part fights which have been known and figured out for years.TTK is going down for endgame content, and that is not only due to "player skill". One of the reactions to that is increasing hitpoints, which I mentioned in the past.

Quote

 

no, you are not consistent. infact you are straight up lying here, just to remind you:

i am not gonna quote again all parts where you mention majority performence or about excluding outliers and give examples that should not be taken into account. (weaver, rene etc. )

taking what average dps did in PoF and comparing to top performer of current patch is very, very weak manipulation. you are just wrong about this sudden powercreep and no shenanigans will change that. majority of builds land in 40-41k range and with that target they should slightly buff bottom 3 (cfb, tempest, chrono), bring back few dead specs ( like power rene, lol) and probably cut top 4 specs to be under 42k.

its not the first time we see 42-43k benches and sadly i am sure its not the last time as it seems they cannot balance it properly...

 

I never said the power creep was sudden. I said it was speeding up and we are at (or past in fact) levels where it breaks the game to much. Which results in fractal bosses like Kanexai.

Quote

 

he explained well what happened in past and is correct about dps-support nearly racing normal dps  (e.g  IBS only had alac-rene with pitiful 27k bench that was crazy grinded and unachievable and now we have few alacs doing 33k+)

but his overall conclusion? not entirely correct. removal of 0-dps supports is not powercreep the same way as killing cele-fb is not reverse-powercreep (negative-powercreep?)  Meta changing =/= powercreep.

 

Well you are free to disagree with him then but you don;t get to misrepresent what he said.

Quote

 

this game doesnt need it, because players will avoid anything that is not time efficient or too annoying to do. why run cm100 that has simmilar rewards to other cms but take twice as long and is much easier to wipe?

they should follow simple rule of:    difficulty * time ~ reward

and kanaxai is clearly: difficulty x2,  time x2  with reward =1    <- something doesnt add up here

 

Kanaxai is actually not that hard and once mastered takes about as long as 99CM now. Once the balance patch hits, it will be faster than now 99CM.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Nimris.3781]

20 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

No I am not. You are bringing this back to hoT every time no matter how many times later balance patches are brought up. 

bruh, you serious?

On 7/27/2023 at 5:53 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

Yes powercreep. The benchmark used to be sub 30k with early HoT (except elementalist).

This increased to 35k around late HoT, early PoF.

On 7/27/2023 at 5:53 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

In case of Guild Wars 2, content breaks at specific damage breakpoints. Early HoT raids are designed with around 25k dps in mind (benchmark dps, actual fight dps will be lower).

On 7/28/2023 at 7:17 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

(...)  That's still approximately where pure dps classes where at mid HoT when the majority of instanced content (besides strikes) was already in the game.

On 7/28/2023 at 7:17 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

10% power creep within 1 year after already 10-15% power creep with the previous expansion is even more. Percentages stack eventually. That's how we got from low 30k dps builds in early HoT (and the first raids) to low to mid 40k dps builds (and mid to high 40k dps builds post SotO unless the developers reverse their stance, (...)

On 7/29/2023 at 11:27 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

Yet a majority of the content was added 4-8 years ago. When was the last taid wing added?

do you have some memory issues?

 

20 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

(hint: I am giving you some ttk changes later on since you obviously didn't bother to check them).

bruh, you serious? let me copy paste my own post here, as you obviously didnt even read it:

On 7/30/2023 at 5:30 AM, Nimris.3781 said:

so what does numbers tell? there are few Era's you can notice happen mostly due to big changes, sometimes rebalance etc. its more like a rollercoaster than constant powercreep.

1. big jump happens in 2019, so dps from 2017 and 2018 is noticibly lower. i dont want to check every patch notes but i guess something along alacrity being added as boon, rework to some specs, rework to runes, 0 dps supports, probably learning of encounters as well?
2. Oct 2019 sets new top, about 70k for Mama and about 90k for Siax, since than we went through multiple ups and downs
3. nerf to precasts/prestacking impacting overall dps, droping to 63k for Mama and 85k for Siax
4. fractal pot fix with 67k Mama and 87k Siax
5. exposed nerf, droping to 57k for Mama and 80k for Siax
6. current patch after multiple rebalancing its about 70k for Mama and 98k for Siax

because you have math issues:  Boss health / squad dps = time to kill.   squad dps changes inversely proportional to ttk and because boss hp wasnt changed over years, results are comparable to some extent.   you can look at either of these, squad dps or ttk.  (but you still need understanding of what was behind the change, like removing 0-dps is not powercreep )

20 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You'd obviously have to compare sample sizes, etc.

yea, not really...

first of i took every log from each patch ( that was 50k+ logs per patch). and size of dataset is irrelevant, it just makes results more precise.

 

20 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You are contradicting yourself here. When the skill floor changes, and the performance goes up without the player improving, that's power creep.

you have no idea what does skill floor mean, right? 🤣

let me explain this, skill floor means "minimum skill level required to be effective" - sort of gate you have to pass.   "effective" varies per game but its fixed level of performance (for gw2 it would be percentage of benchmark, for example 70% of dps).   if someone is below skill floor, it means he cannot perform basic class mechanic (for example he interrupts casts, doesnt use pet etc.)  and has terrible dmg like 20% of benchmark.  lowering skill floor will let people that initially had 30% of dps finally do 70%, but people that already did 70% wont see change in their dps.    as an example of lowering skill floor: making pet skill autocast. people that already did that in rotation would see no increase in dps.

not to mention that 70% is still the same number like 30k, meaning there is no powercreep. besides powercreep has to be measured on top performing players, below that its "skill issue"

i am not gonna refer to rest of that paragraph as its just pure nonesense there, google phrases next time as you are making fool of yourself.

 

20 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Value Guardian:

PoF: Top: 3m11s  Med: 5m3s

EoD release: Top 2m10s Med: 3m54s

Current: Top:1m55s Med: 3m14s

or how about a more damage Golem style fight with less transitions:

Mursaat:

PoF: Top: 1m35s  Med: 2m38s

EoD release: Top: 1m12s  Med:2m

Current: 1m2s  Med:1m44s

I could go on but I hope you get the picture.

hold on a sec, why are you skipping multiple patches that are inconvenient for your argument?  all number are  Med on Mursaat since PoF:

• 2.38m - PoF release sep 2017
• 2.19 - nov 2017         <- why have you skipped this and few following patches. clearly during PoF expansion average kill time was about 2.15, not 2.38
• 2.17 - dec 2017
• 2.14 - feb 2018
• 2.19 - may 218
• 2.24 - jul 2018
• 2.18 - aug 2018
• 2.11 - oct 2018          <- even far back in PoF we already had 2.11 kill time
• 2.11 - nov 2018 (rune rework)
• 2.19 - dec 2018
• 2.21 - mar 2019
• 2.18 - apr 2019
• 2.12 - jul 2019
• 2.08 - oct 2019  (icebrood saga starts)
• 2.03 - feb 2020
• 1.55 - jul 2020                      <- already sub 2min and thats early IBS, clearly it wasnt EoD that brought us to 2.00 kill time
• 1.50 - may 2021
• 1.48 - may 2021 hotfix           <- also why skipping this part? IBS already had 1.48 kill time. isnt that kinda important?
• 1.51 - aug 2021 (end of precasts)
• 1.49 - sep 2021 (eod beta 2, more or less 0 impact, skipped 1, 3 & 4 as same results + it was beta)
• 1.48 - oct 2021 (mistpot fix)      <- why skipping this as well? that patch was long and again ~1.48 kill time
• 2.00 - feb 2022 (EoD release)         <- using EoD release numbers to manipulate results...
• 1.54 - mar 2022 (exposed nerf)
• 1.54 - jun 2022
• 1.52 - aug 2022              <- skipping multiple patches showing simmilar results
• 1.54 - oct 2022
• 1.50 - nov 2022
• 1.47 - feb 2023
• 1.46 - may 2023
• 1.42 - june 2023
• 1.44 - july 2023        <- this is literally only 4 sec faster than what we had in IBS, nice manipulation there!

20 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Next time take some time and actually read up on "the data"

oh please xDDD

you are making fool of yourself once again. take your own advice and check data carefully. Top kill times on Mursaat:

• top from jul 2018:   1.08m
• top from oct 2019: 1.05m
• top from feb 2020:     58s    !!! <- already sub 1 min
• top from jul 2020:      56s    <- another sub 1 min you ignored?
• top from may 2021  1.02m
• top from mar 2022    52s    !!!!!!!  <- care to explain why have you skipped this? oh let me guess, because it proves you wrong?
• top from oct 2022   1.09m
• top from may 2023   58s
• top from july 2023  1.02m   <- current patch, powercreep where?!

at this point i think its preety clear, that you are just spewing nonsens about powercreep. i have even used data from raids that you so much insisted on and it beautifully proved you wrong, lol.

20 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I could go on but I hope you get the picture.

i love the irony in this sentence.

20 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I said it was speeding up and we are at (or past in fact) levels where it breaks the game to much

looking at the ttk you proposed to check, its clearly not speeding up. infact there is no powercreep, and ttk is swinging up and down depending on patch.   also thats what i was saying many posts ago. no powercreep, just some Meta changes what classes we play.

i am really curious what will you pull out this time, because currently everything you brought up proved you wrong.

20 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Kanaxai is actually not that hard and once mastered takes about as long as 99CM now

yeah, sure. 30m vs 43m taking same time, of course...

Edited August 2, 2023 by Nimris.3781

[Cyninja.2954]

4 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

bruh, you serious?

do you have some memory issues?

Nope, but you have reading comprehension issues: the second last quote was in regards to EoD and most of those where in my initial responses until I realized your wierd fixation on HoT.

4 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

you have no idea what does skill floor mean, right? 🤣

let me explain this, skill floor means "minimum skill level required to be effective" - sort of gate you have to pass.   "effective" varies per game but its fixed level of performance (for gw2 it would be percentage of benchmark, for example 70% of dps).   if someone is below skill floor, it means he cannot perform basic class mechanic (for example he interrupts casts, doesnt use pet etc.)  and has terrible dmg like 20% of benchmark.  lowering skill floor will let people that initially had 30% of dps finally do 70%, but people that already did 70% wont see change in their dps.    as an example of lowering skill floor: making pet skill autocast. people that already did that in rotation would see no increase in dps.

not to mention that 70% is still the same number like 30k, meaning there is no powercreep. besides powercreep has to be measured on top performing players, below that its "skill issue"

i am not gonna refer to rest of that paragraph as its just pure nonesense there, google phrases next time as you are making fool of yourself.

Ah thanks, and lowering that skill floor does what then? You just enjoy hearing yourself talk don't you?

You don't magically change the skill floor, it requires actual changes. For example: increasing or shifting more damage to auto attack will lower the skill floor for a class. It will make it easier to achieve those 70%. It will also increase the performance for everyone above 70%, unless they never used auto attacks.Simplifying mechanics for a class can have similar affects but can also only affect the lower skilled players.

We have had both types of change, the automation of the pets was a change to design which would not impact top tier players, though certainly average players already clearing familiar with the game, the changers to auto attacks affected nearly everyone except for builds which had nearly 0 auto attacks.

Quote

 

hold on a sec, why are you skipping multiple patches that are inconvenient for your argument?  all number are  Med on Mursaat since PoF:

• 2.38m - PoF release sep 2017
• 2.19 - nov 2017         <- why have you skipped this and few following patches. clearly during PoF expansion average kill time was about 2.15, not 2.38
• 2.17 - dec 2017
• 2.14 - feb 2018
• 2.19 - may 218
• 2.24 - jul 2018
• 2.18 - aug 2018
• 2.11 - oct 2018          <- even far back in PoF we already had 2.11 kill time
• 2.11 - nov 2018 (rune rework)
• 2.19 - dec 2018
• 2.21 - mar 2019
• 2.18 - apr 2019
• 2.12 - jul 2019
• 2.08 - oct 2019  (icebrood saga starts)
• 2.03 - feb 2020
• 1.55 - jul 2020                      <- already sub 2min and thats early IBS, clearly it wasnt EoD that brought us to 2.00 kill time
• 1.50 - may 2021
• 1.48 - may 2021 hotfix           <- also why skipping this part? IBS already had 1.48 kill time. isnt that kinda important?
• 1.51 - aug 2021 (end of precasts)
• 1.49 - sep 2021 (eod beta 2, more or less 0 impact, skipped 1, 3 & 4 as same results + it was beta)
• 1.48 - oct 2021 (mistpot fix)      <- why skipping this as well? that patch was long and again ~1.48 kill time
• 2.00 - feb 2022 (EoD release)         <- using EoD release numbers to manipulate results...
• 1.54 - mar 2022 (exposed nerf)
• 1.54 - jun 2022
• 1.52 - aug 2022              <- skipping multiple patches showing simmilar results
• 1.54 - oct 2022
• 1.50 - nov 2022
• 1.47 - feb 2023
• 1.46 - may 2023
• 1.42 - june 2023
• 1.44 - july 2023        <- this is literally only 4 sec faster than what we had in IBS, nice manipulation there!

 

I made it more easily readable (and gave top end and medium) and stuck to major content patches. Now go and make a graph. What will that graph look like, can you guess? Which direction is the line heading? Please explain.

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• top from jul 2018:   1.08m
• top from oct 2019: 1.05m
• top from feb 2020:     58s    !!! <- already sub 1 min
• top from jul 2020:      56s    <- another sub 1 min you ignored?
• top from may 2021  1.02m
• top from mar 2022    52s    !!!!!!!  <- care to explain why have you skipped this? oh let me guess, because it proves you wrong?
• top from oct 2022   1.09m
• top from may 2023   58s
• top from july 2023  1.02m   <- current patch, powercreep where?!

 

Fair enough, one could look at banner changes but the top end ttk for Mursaat seems rather consistent.

What I said still applies to medium damage groups.

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at this point i think its preety clear, that you are just spewing nonsens about powercreep. i have even used data from raids that you so much insisted on and it beautifully proved you wrong, lol.

You did and forgot to look at where the numbers are heading.

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yeah, sure. 30m vs 43m taking same time, of course...

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/ai

Top: 5m39s  Med:7m45s

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/kana

Top: 5m10s  Med: 9m52s

Have you even completed this fight yet? Going to repeat EXACTLY what I said as to not have any confusions here:

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Kanaxai is actually not that hard and once mastered takes about as long as 99CM now

Edited August 2, 2023 by Cyninja.2954