Is it just me, or does the new fractal boss have WAY too much health?

[rotten.9753]

13 hours ago, LichOverlord.6329 said:

It honestly feels like rather than designing 4 different versions of a fight, they just designed one fight and tweaked the numbers just a touch - "okay we have 4 tiers now. Let's push it to live."

Higher tiers have more AoE, more Aspects spawning, and more Aspects to kill on platforms. It's not just more HP and damage.

[anbujackson.9564]

Apparently CM has still even more hp. Probably over 30 million now.

Next to mechanics happening all from the beginning and some of them instant killing you. 

[Ashantara.8731]

Edit: Grappling Hook is fine, you just need to learn how to use it. 😄

Edited July 25, 2023 by Ashantara.8731

[Myror.7521]

Sooo this Fractal cm is pretty easy to do acutually but. One Person death and you need to gg. Also the large HP of the Boss makes the fight realy long so after a while im going brain afk mode and whipe the whole Team by doing a mistake xd. But as Said the mechanics themselfs are pretty ezy to do acutually ^^

[Nemesis Ghost.5782]

The boss HP is 43 million.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

it almost like there was already a problem with normal mode that should've been addressed before the challenge mote..

Edited July 19, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[anbujackson.9564]

4 hours ago, Nemesis Ghost.5782 said:

The boss HP is 43 million.

Well, now we know why every spec in their new balance philosophy should at least deal 40k dps. Too bad that you invalidate literally every other fractal in the process.

[soul.9651]

7 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

Sooo this Fractal cm is pretty easy to do acutually but. One Person death and you need to gg. Also the large HP of the Boss makes the fight realy long so after a while im going brain afk mode and whipe the whole Team by doing a mistake xd. But as Said the mechanics themselfs are pretty ezy to do acutually ^^

The only problem is that its just forces yet again you to play ranged builds. For how long anet devs will keep on going with melee hate... They should put a dam reflects on the boss during split mechanics.. what is this ranged builds favoritism..-.-

Edited July 19, 2023 by soul.9651

[Myror.7521]

@soul.9651 idk I think ranged and melee Builds are not real Balanced yet. Just an example. Melee Builds are dealing realy good dps while in melee fights. Meanwhile ranged Builds dealing realy good dps in melee and ranged fights. Its also the case in PvP rn. And it is litterly why ranged Builds<-melee Builds. A-Net realy might want to Change Things a bit or ranged stuff will realy dominate the Meta ^^

But also the Boss favorites condi+ melee Builds for Sure ^^

Edited July 19, 2023 by Myror.7521

[soul.9651]

24 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said:

@soul.9651 idk I think ranged and melee Builds are not real Balanced yet. Just an example. Melee Builds are dealing realy good dps while in melee fights. Meanwhile ranged Builds dealing realy good dps in melee and ranged fights. Its also the case in PvP rn. And it is litterly why ranged Builds<-melee Builds. A-Net realy might want to Change Things a bit or ranged stuff will realy dominate the Meta ^^

But also the Boss favorites condi+ melee Builds for Sure ^^

And on top now when im thinking about ranged builds, there are some outliners among those aswell, like scourge beeing able to ignore any of reflects, its the only ranged build like this, also keeping in mind they probably overbuffed it again.. but anyway i think pmech is the example where ranged builds should be (or at least close to that), every single one of them so hopefully they bring them down eventualy. Plus im pretty sure current pug ranged builds (cvirt,scourge) rn will be on top of benchmarks or close to it so its not just beeing ranged advatage for them..and its not like its that complicated to perform on those builds (almost 0effort) compared to other ones (weaver,cata, im pretty sure berserker too?)where its gonna be more complicated to perform well with the rotation AND they will get punished for not beeing full ranged

Edited July 19, 2023 by soul.9651

[rotten.9753]

53 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

And on top now when im thinking about ranged builds, there are some outliners among those aswell, like scourge beeing able to ignore any of reflects, its the only ranged build like this, also keeping in mind they probably overbuffed it again.. but anyway i think pmech is the example where ranged builds should be (or at least close to that), every single one of them so hopefully they bring them down eventualy. Plus im pretty sure current pug ranged builds (cvirt,scourge) rn will be on top of benchmarks or close to it so its not just beeing ranged advatage for them..and its not like its that complicated to perform on those builds (almost 0effort) compared to other ones (weaver,cata, im pretty sure berserker too?)where its gonna be more complicated to perform well with the rotation AND they will get punished for not beeing full ranged

Since ANet often balances based on popularity, just swallow the scourge/cvirt pill and use it more often. Personally, I won't bother with more difficult builds that are fully melee when the new content overly punishes melee and doesn't do anything to punish ranged builds.

[Myror.7521]

@soul.9651 idk I might think like the range and melee classes should be like this

1. Melee does only best dps in real melee fights

2. Ranged Builds loosing many dps while going into a melee fight instead of a Ranged one.

First this would ranged classes get punished in sence of they could more easily evade mechanics but they get less heal supp (since ranged classes often do not Stack at all but Well If they do its at least good coordinated. While melee saw the full amount of healing/Defence boons for be not that easily able to do mechanics at all. Also in this way they would make it even more Balanced in PvP^^

[SolarDragon.7063]

This fight is an absolute slog on higher tiers, especially on CM.
It apparently has more health than most raid bosses, and especially on CM, has mechanics that make DPS uptime extremely low.

It's too long a fight, and you spend too long not actually playing the game.

[Nephalem.8921]

11 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

@soul.9651 idk I might think like the range and melee classes should be like this

1. Melee does only best dps in real melee fights

2. Ranged Builds loosing many dps while going into a melee fight instead of a Ranged one.

First this would ranged classes get punished in sence of they could more easily evade mechanics but they get less heal supp (since ranged classes often do not Stack at all but Well If they do its at least good coordinated. While melee saw the full amount of healing/Defence boons for be not that easily able to do mechanics at all. Also in this way they would make it even more Balanced in PvP^^

That would just make ranged builds useless...

You know how boons work?

[Myror.7521]

@Nephalem.8921 Hmmm yea true tho.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

6 hours ago, SolarDragon.7063 said:

This fight is an absolute slog on higher tiers, especially on CM.
It apparently has more health than most raid bosses, and especially on CM, has mechanics that make DPS uptime extremely low.

It's too long a fight, and you spend too long not actually playing the game.

on the challenge mote it has several times the health of raid bosses, with half the party size and dps output, so its about 4-5x the difficulty. one could argue that in normal mode that's not the case as the mechanics aren't as bad as a raid, but the cm is worse than most raids.

 

i'm baffled that there's still players defending this health sponge design. normalising powercreep is bad enough, requiring it is worse.

Edited July 19, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Sirius.4510]

Agree with this, the boss having this much HP is not making it more fun; it's just going to quickly lead to people not wanting to do it because it takes too long. See what happened to Cold War and Forging Steel - they are just too long for the rewards.

It's a shame because the design feels pretty solid except for that. With a few exceptions, e.g. jumping to platforms being kinda screwy.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Sirius.4510

[Fueki.4753]

8 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

That would just make ranged builds useless...

You know how boons work?

How about a proximity-based decline of damage?

The further you are away from the enemy, the less damage you do.

[Xentera.4560]

On 7/19/2023 at 5:36 PM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

 

i'm baffled that there's still players defending this health sponge design. normalising powercreep is bad enough, requiring it is worse.

Even the biggest fanboys are running out of copium to justify this kitten.

[Krzysztof.5973]

Don't forget guys... more health = more content. And it's acceptable to beta test for ANet so they can save money on QA team 🥳

[Shadowmoon.7986]

On 7/23/2023 at 11:44 AM, Xentera.4560 said:

Even the biggest fanboys are running out of copium to justify this kitten.

I am pretty sure the high health pools is so cc skills can be off cd between break bars. Even with the high hp, many of my groups still out dps our cc skills coming off recharge. If you want cut the hp in half, the break bars need to only be every 20%,  which would requiring halving the cc achievement because you cut the cc bars in half.

Pretty sure the boss was designed with the break bar mechanic first, and balanced around having a groups cc skills coming off cd. Otherwise, cutting the health in half would lead to group waiting doing 0 dps even longer for their cc skills to come off cd.

[LichOverlord.6329]

On 7/19/2023 at 5:36 PM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

on the challenge mote it has several times the health of raid bosses, with half the party size and dps output, so its about 4-5x the difficulty. one could argue that in normal mode that's not the case as the mechanics aren't as bad as a raid, but the cm is worse than most raids.

 

i'm baffled that there's still players defending this health sponge design. normalising powercreep is bad enough, requiring it is worse.

Wow, its almost like this is what I've been saying this entire time, and people were telling me to "just get good"

Like no, I'm not complaining because its too hard for me in particular I'm making a point that having as much health as he does is bad design, especially on Tier 1 where the content is meant for new players who do like 5-10k

By defending bad design by telling players to "get good", you excuse bad design, which in turn encourages Arenanet to design things badly

Stop encouraging bad game design, people

[Shadowmoon.7986]

2 hours ago, LichOverlord.6329 said:

Wow, its almost like this is what I've been saying this entire time, and people were telling me to "just get good"

Like no, I'm not complaining because its too hard for me in particular I'm making a point that having as much health as he does is bad design, especially on Tier 1 where the content is meant for new players who do like 5-10k

By defending bad design by telling players to "get good", you excuse bad design, which in turn encourages Arenanet to design things badly

Stop encouraging bad game design, people

How would fix the encounter then? I ask because anything you do will have unintended consequences. You can not say, cut the hp in half and think that fixes everything.

[Nimris.3781]

5 hours ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

I am pretty sure the high health pools is so cc skills can be off cd between break bars. Even with the high hp, many of my groups still out dps our cc skills coming off recharge. If you want cut the hp in half, the break bars need to only be every 20%,  which would requiring halving the cc achievement because you cut the cc bars in half.

Pretty sure the boss was designed with the break bar mechanic first, and balanced around having a groups cc skills coming off cd. Otherwise, cutting the health in half would lead to group waiting doing 0 dps even longer for their cc skills to come off cd.

So you are defending this monstrosity on a premise that someone had a vision, a dream of 13 defiance bars across encounter and an achievement to break 10 of them and adjusted hp to skill cd's to make it possible?  lol... looking how vast are cc capabilities of some classes, that doesnt make sense. some specs can barely make 500 defiance bar dmg, while others solo exceed 1500 without issues.

I see no reasons why after cutting hp, they couldnt adjust number of defiance bars or their size, like:

1. normal every 20%, so 90,70,50,30,10
2. cm e.g , 95,80,65,50,40,30,20,10  for a total of 8 defiance bars and achivement to break 6 or 7 of them   ( this would also help with 35% bar and 33% phase bugging)

Besides you dont have to cut hp by half on cm.  T1 definitely need to get cut by solid 60% ( from 17.5 to like 6-8), but T4 and cm could be cut by about 25%-30% and it would improve this fight by a lot. finally, they can adjust defiance bar initial size and how much it increases every time to balance it properly.

You didn't really think carefully about your argument.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Nimris.3781

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

4 hours ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

How would fix the encounter then? I ask because anything you do will have unintended consequences. You can not say, cut the hp in half and think that fixes everything.

it doesn't need alot of adjustments, just a few simple fixes:

- the health could be cut by at least 30%, with the cut health being moved to the first "boss" that feels like something from open-world, as it melts as fast as a veteran and is probably the weakest boss in all of fractals.

- the frequency of the defiant bars could be reduced, but breaking one would disable abilities for a time (like on bounties), allowing real dps phases.

- the grappling hook mechanic could be replaced by ziplines or mushrooms.

- players could be given a special action key to break the defiance of the adds so that even healers could do away with them.
- something could actually change between the phases as the fight drags on, instead the first phase being played on repeat for 8-10mins, and the challenge mote could feel significantly different from the normal encounter rather than just being copy-paste.

- you could dodge mechanics, and mistlock singularity could prevent death, and you could also revive players.

- you could /gg (or teleport) to the next section of the jumping puzzle once only a single player has made it and activated the checkpoint.

 

i mean, these are definitely not things we've had in almost every other fractal? i'm not trying to be mean here, but apparently including fractal mechanics in fractals has become something that is unthinkable and to argue against on the forums.

Edited July 25, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134