So Relics will be vertical progression, power creep and pay to win? [Merged]

[idpersona.3810]

41 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Having a lot of characters doesn't mean you'll be playing with all of them all the time.  It's not a requirement to totally equip all of them with relics at all times.   I have 32 characters and frankly, most of them are parked at gathering locations for farming purposes and I only rotate characters I feel like focusing on playing for the patch cycle which is maybe 5-6 characters.  That's the case for most people that I know who have a lot of characters.

I have 16 of my level 80 characters parked at locations. And that doesn't matter. They are all currently geared out and have complete builds and playstyles. After the expansion release, (from the information we currently have) all 16 of them will be lesser than they were the day before. That is a problem.

10 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

.Which you'll use on the character that you run through the SOTO story mode with, then by the time you're done with the story mode enough Relics will be in TP that you can then buy or craft the rest for the other characters you want to focus on playing for the remainder of the patch cycle

This is both speculation and an unacceptable prospect to me. I do not like the idea of having to work back, over and over again, to get to the level I am currently geared on character after character.  I already put in the work for each and every one of those characters (some with multiple builds). That is a loss on 25+ characters that I will be expected to put in multiple hours of work again and again. That in an of itself is a problem. Even if relics are only 2-3g each, I would be resentful of the fact that I will be taxed to get back the functionality I currently have. To be clear (and we don't know how this will work yet since there hasn't been any added useful information from anet), the very idea of taking away character functionality to have us work or pay for it back is unacceptable. There needs to be better implementation than that.

7 minutes ago, Geralt.7519 said:

Stop assuming everyone else is like you, we're not all the same and we do not play all the same.

This. 100%.

[Geralt.7519]

14 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Everyone is like me in that they occupy one place in the physical universe at any given time and can't be playing with all their characters at all times.  I stated an objective fact.

Switching to different characters during your playtime is a thing, you know?

[DeathPanel.8362]

12 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

After the expansion release, (from the information we currently have) all 16 of them will be lesser than they were the day before. That is a problem

Welcome to every single nerf balance patch ever made.

[DeathPanel.8362]

12 minutes ago, Geralt.7519 said:

Switching to different characters during your playtime is a thing, you know?

You still have to play with only one at any given time.

[Geralt.7519]

3 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

You still have to play with only one at any given time.

So, you're saying that a single relic for a single box is enough to cover all the builds of different types and classes people might use during a single play time? That's obviously assuming relics are not char bound because we don't know that yet.

Are you serious?

[idpersona.3810]

26 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Welcome to every single nerf balance patch ever made.

You are wrong. Every single balance patch does not tax players (in gold or time) to keep the functionality they had the day before.

[DeathPanel.8362]

36 minutes ago, Geralt.7519 said:

So, you're saying that a single relic for a single box is enough to cover all the builds of different types and classes people might use during a single play time? That's obviously assuming relics are not char bound because we don't know that yet.

Are you serious?

I'm saying ANET doesn't have to "cover" anything at all if it doesn't feel like it.  

 

[DeathPanel.8362]

25 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

You are wrong. Every single balance patch does not tax players (in gold or time) to keep the functionality they had the day before.

You are wrong.  Nerf patches taxes players in gold AND time because it forces them to change their equipment and builds to offset them which necessitates grinding or spending currency.  Sometimes that's not even possible and a build is just straight up dead with no offset.  You pretending that this relic patch is somehow uniquely different is just wrong.  If anything this has far less impact on many player builds than some of the nerfs that came down recently.

Edited July 6, 2023 by DeathPanel.8362

[WRay.2391]

18 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

You are wrong.  Nerf patches taxes players in gold AND time because it forces them to change their equipment and builds to offset them which necessitates grinding or spending currency.  Sometimes that's not even possible and a build is just straight up dead with no offset.  You pretending that this relic patch is somehow uniquely different is just wrong.  If anything this has far less impact on many player builds than some of the nerfs that came down recently.

Any person invested in legendary gear can immediately swap to another build without any issues or tax, so this case is uniquely different.

[DeathPanel.8362]

6 minutes ago, WRay.2391 said:

Any person invested in legendary gear can immediately swap to another build without any issues or tax, so this case is uniquely different.

That's a fringe case.  99.99% of players don't have full sets of all legendary of every armor class, accessories, and weapon type.

Edited July 6, 2023 by DeathPanel.8362

[WRay.2391]

1 minute ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

That's a fringe case.  99.99% of players don't have full sets of all legendary of every armor class, accessories, and weapon type.  Exceptions don't disprove the rule.

Nonsense. Your claim was totally false, you can't just say it's exception. Otherwise literally anybody can claim this for any argument. Oh, it's just an exception ... Otherwise I was correct...

[DeathPanel.8362]

1 minute ago, WRay.2391 said:

Nonsense. Your claim was totally false, you can't just say it's exception. Otherwise literally anybody can claim this for any argument. Oh, it's just an exception ... Otherwise I was correct...

If I said humans have two legs and you point out that someone was born with a birth defect and had 3 legs that doesn't disprove what I said.  Exceptions don't disprove generalities.

 

[WRay.2391]

Just now, DeathPanel.8362 said:

If I said humans have two legs and you point out that someone was born with a birth defect and had 3 legs that doesn't disprove what I said.  Exceptions don't disprove generalities.

 

Totally straw man. 3 legs means a serious condition, usually requires medical intervention an is not a normal situation that everybody will take calmly. If you mean that we need to react to remediate this "exception" and tell ANET that it's doing something wrong, then yes, I will agree with you. If you are telling that this "exception" is totally fine, then it's a straw man argument.

[WRay.2391]

Playing your game: ANET never implemented vertical progression. That fringe cases were totally exceptions and just prove horizontal progression style. So THIS case they are indeed introducing UNIQUE case of vertical progression.

[DeathPanel.8362]

Just now, WRay.2391 said:

Totally straw man. 3 legs means a serious condition, usually requires medical intervention an is not a normal situation that everybody will take calmly. If you mean that we need to react to remediate this "exception" and tell ANET that it's doing something wrong, then yes, I will agree with you. If you are telling that this "exception" is totally fine, then it's a straw man argument.

You're using an exception fallacy.  You're reaching a group conclusion based on exceptional cases, not the norm.

The norm of GW2 is that the vast majority of players don't have all legendary gear on every slot and weapon.  So each time a Nerf patch hits what I described happens.

[WRay.2391]

1 minute ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

You're using an exception fallacy.  You're reaching a group conclusion based on exceptional cases, not the norm.

The norm of GW2 is that the vast majority of players don't have all legendary gear on every slot and weapon.  So each time a Nerf patch hits what I described happens.

Not true. If you have legendary gear required, your are fine. They are not removing stats from legendary gear after balance patch. Even if you have no legendary you are fine (flipping between zerker and condi for example). This case is a removal of stat, not a balance case for sure.

[DeathPanel.8362]

Just now, WRay.2391 said:

Not true. If you have legendary gear required, your are fine. They are not removing stats from legendary gear after balance patch. Even if you have no legendary you are fine (flipping between zerker and condi for example). This case is a removal of stat, not a balance case for sure.

I'm not talking about that fringe case.  I'm talking about the general player population.  The norm, not the exception.

The norm is that each time a nerf patch happens many players are forced to spend currency or time to offset that nerf by getting new equipment or runes/sigils or to change their builds entirely to remain relevant.  

[DeathPanel.8362]

2 minutes ago, Echo.3725 said:

You are also ignoring the fact that as a human we can't randomly unplug from the matrix, choose a new name, load back in with a shared inventory space, use possessions we accumulated in our previous ventures into the said matrix, and also obtain some that allow us to use benefits unique enough they have to be specifically assigned to said possessions. 

I was using an analogy.  

[Dopamine.6324]

2 hours ago, Geralt.7519 said:

You're forgetting an important detail, you get ONE relic at launch for ONE build, that you won't even know yet what's the most suitable to you since we know nothing about how runes and relics will be actually changed (because Anet said they won't be exactly as they are now), and the rest of your builds and chars are screwed until you grind more relics, and we don't even know yet which relic is acquired how.

If that's not breaking builds I don't know what else to tell you.

but we know how relics are obtained and by now you could already start banking reward track potions and by the time xpac hits you will have atleast 5 relics available.

[Echo.3725]

1 minute ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

I was using an analogy.  

This wasn't constructive, nor did it answer any of the concerns on the topic. 

You are generalizing to the point of it being detrimental. 

And honestly after reading most of your posts, I'm pretty sure you don't understand the impact this will have on the majority of the player base. Everyone in the game who has more than one character that uses any build variations on runes is impacted. Not just legendary holders. This means you too most likely unless your playstyle is just scholar till you die. 

Just imagine some who have things like a monk runed druid for healing, a scholar runed ele for dps, and a tormented runed spectre for condi. I can swap between them now in 5 minutes  and be at any level of content I want. With your request to ignore our concerns and to ask to be shot in the foot, litterally speaking in terms of function, just because you as a player want to run through and craft 20+ relics for all your builds. 

If that is what you want - you can still do that if they correct the issue of only one relic per account, you can still do that if they provide legendary relics to rune holders, you can even still do that if they tweak plans and make it a mastery item or something entirely new instead of breaking something existing.

The difference in this is that your requests is detrimental to almost every scenario that you've ignored that are not fringe cases.  Others clearly value these and understand the impact of what they have earned, something you clearly don't care for. You shouldn't opt for the nuclear option and try to take something away from people if you yourself don't value its benefit.

 

[Wolfyno.2704]

24 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

I'm not talking about that fringe case.  I'm talking about the general player population.  The norm, not the exception.

The norm is that each time a nerf patch happens many players are forced to spend currency or time to offset that nerf by getting new equipment or runes/sigils or to change their builds entirely to remain relevant.  

I am truly amazed on how protective you are of their bad planning / decision. Anyway, to reply to you post, the whole point of the Legendary armory was to get FULL flexibility once we unlocked it, a reward for the biggest achievements the game has to offer, under the premise, as the game has been marketed over the years, that they will always be useful, no matter the change. 

Also the whole point of expansions is the extend and offer more additions to the game and not substract a feature just to give it back marketed is a new expansion worth feature.

Most people don't use forums to express their frustration and most people unlocked legendary runes before armory, as they are easier to get with just gold and daily mats. So yea, quite many people are gonna be affected, and for what? what is the point of this change? what makes it so-worth screwing your player base over ? what are the pros? flexibility? most people don't use stats from food even on raids / group content, unless freely offered, so I am sure we can do just fine without those stat numbers that are marketed as 'the reason" for the change.

(1st post ever, had to)

Edited July 7, 2023 by Wolfyno.2704

[DeathPanel.8362]

20 minutes ago, Graymatter.4723 said:

For example, 2.5% of players have 39 unlocked legendaries

Would you say 2.5% represents the norm or the exception?

[DeathPanel.8362]

51 minutes ago, Wolfyno.2704 said:

I am truly amazed on how protective you are of their bad planning / decision

Pointing out that Nerf patches result in players having to pay currency or grind to change their builds to offset them is somehow "protective" of ANET?  Pointing out that just because the fringe cases of those that have legendaries don't have to pay currency doesn't mean it disproves the generality that most people have to is "protective" of ANET?   

[Ashen.2907]

2 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

You are wrong.  Nerf patches taxes players in gold AND time because it forces them to change their equipment and builds to offset them which necessitates grinding or spending currency.  Sometimes that's not even possible and a build is just straight up dead with no offset.  You pretending that this relic patch is somehow uniquely different is just wrong.  If anything this has far less impact on many player builds than some of the nerfs that came down recently.

He said balance patch, not nerf patch. We have had multiple patches over the years that were straight up buffs.

[DeathPanel.8362]

1 minute ago, Ashen.2907 said:

He said balance patch, not nerf patch. We have had multiple patches over the years that were straight up buffs.

That was his response to my post in which I said nerf patch.  Read further upstream and you'll see the context of the actual discussion.