Wolfyno.2704

Well the changes related to runes are .... a first here, so is the revamp of daily logging reward if I am not mistaken ... so yea, we still have no idea about what's coming tomorrow in term of changes and patch notes ..

@Zebulon.1850 is right tho. Some runes with similar stats, but had different effects, are definitely gonna get deleted/removed either short or long-term. These 3 runes: Superior Rune of Fireworks, Superior Rune of Surging, and Superior Rune of the Pack share the SAME stats in their first 5 iterations, and only the 6th effect was different, with the last one including a stat bonus (precision), so I doubt seeing how these sets are about power and precision I am sure one of the first two will get removed ... if I understand what was posted. Sure they can put Power as the last stat in Fireworks and Ferocity in Surging ... but that would be redundant with 3 other rune sets that are all about power and ferocity .. basically, few runes will have to go.

The fact that, in an unusual way, they emphasize that in their blog post seems to kind of support that ... the only beef I have with this xpac is the new relic system as it is now.

Jadebots are indeed quite a bit of power creep. Let's look at it - 235 extra stats, over anyone who doesn't use one or has yet to buy the xpac, albeit not useful to everyone but in the open world solo runs, quite many love it for solo stuff. In comparison: * Infusions: all 18 slots of for infusion can offer: 18*5 = 90 combined extra stats. * Food and utility: food can offer up to, a combination of two stats, 170 extra stats/utility can offer up to 200 if health is above 90% (both of these are temporary and quite expensive to get, but many are open to everyone). i.e: (Sentinel / Shaman armor) gear: * Ascended 2* 1h weapons or 1*2handed weapons both offer= offer at most 250 vitality if it is the only major attribute (same as Jade) * Ascended 6-piece armors offer 439 vitality if it is the only major attribute (more than half for jade) So these extra stats are unavailable to people who did not buy last xpac but bought the other xpacs. Almost a pay to powerup. But it gets better: Add Full Mastery for the Jade Bot and you have people running around having access to ALL BUFFS for 2 hours (12 secs at least in ech battle) (minus instanced content) If this is not power creeping I don't know what is.

I have been part of quite many discussions having issues with SOTO, mostly about the relic system, and it got me curious about how many of us would buy SOTO (for those who have yet to get it) if a legendary relic was present on launch or if the relic system was postponed until one was ready and how many are having issues with other parts of the Xpac that are stopping them for buying.

I beg to differ, we don't need to see it to know it is a terrible implementation. It will be too late when implemented as it is to voice our concerns. The lack of details and communication, 10 days away from the release date, throws quite a bit of shade over this Xpac as a whole, and the relic system as a main feature.

Ah, my bad, assumed "click baiting" as in "trolling". Apologise!

Anet seemingly had a few of the most creative people as proven in many great ingame mechanics, especially the mounts. But lately ...

Nope, quite a valid question actually, the relic system means that not only are we to lose flexibility from already acquired items just to GRIND it back, but maybe worse, as we might need to PAY for it (Legendary relic achievement may need to have bought SOTO to be unlocked) before we are able to grind it back ... Is this a first clear step towards a PAY2WIN gw2? with the Jade it was quite the power creep but now? Still waiting to see how bad can it get ... so far, "most" of our complains / requests have fallen on deaf ears.

Indeed, but some data may hint that: - The number of players is dwindling (the steam number of players which was never high, to begin with, 8k players, now vacillates between half and a quarter of that number daily even though it has become more accessible now more than ever) plus personally 2 of my guilds over time died. Basically, fails to attract the new and is pushing away the old. - The "strong reactions" spread quite a lot and can be felt even in build forums, where new players usually look for new builds and as time goes on, the controversial changes seem to increase which divides the community and creates "strong debates"

It is more like the feedback doesn't align with their plans and is therefore not useful ... as there is no middle ground. And the reactions are quite appropriate for soto: - thin expac with quite a lot of reused assets (models, systems, classes..) , lacking in new additions and soulless content. As for the relics, yea, still better than NOTHING but it still remains a bad deal: - People won't be able to choose well, especially legendary runes holders, since the Best In Slot stuff needs more testing and more time for fixes. - Not all will be available on launch. - That is an extra 2 backpack slots being filled for each character. - What about the holders of multiple rune sets for each char? - The 6th rune EFFECT is being removed, what always mattered was that effect. - The legendary rune was an afterthought that may take between 6 to 18 months to arrive just to recover the lost flexibility. - Most runes were useful, there were the meta ones then the poor man's ones. - As for the dev part, it will be a messy cake, they are changing everything at once, and so far their track record proves that they will need more time to make everything work.

Wrong the effect is being removed. Why are some people gaslighting the discussions? I.E for Scholar Rune, as far as it presented: - Rune 6th effect NOW: +125 Ferocity/increase strike damage by 5% while your health is above 90%. - Rune 6th effect AFTER SOTO: +125 Ferocity ONLY - RUNE 6th EFFECT + RELIC: +125 Ferocity + (relic) increase strike damage by 5% while your health is above 90%. So yea, being removed.

This is a disingenuous attempt at gaslighting. I will just copy/paste a few replies I wrote a few weeks ago: - You are focusing too much on semantics and glossing over the points being presented. This is not a case of "Potato, potahto": before relics, we can swap runes, and after the relic patch, we will be able to swap runes. The Legendry's rune functionality AS IT IS NOW is to freely swap between runes, including their 6th set effects AS THEY ARE NOW, both rune revision and removal of the 6th rune effect, AS IT IS NOW, are the two sides of the same coin = a hard nerf... - If people want just the stats, they are able to do it already. Just mix two rune sets and you'll have all rune stats if that is what you are going for. For most, without effects, runes are almost useless. In the past months, I've seen the same few people fervently defending this terrible change ... I wonder why. Anyway, holding on to any idea of buying the expac till we get more details and hopefully new changes.

Both points are worth mentioning and would need a clearer answer!

Whatever we unlocked with Skyscale, we are keeping, yes it is cheaper for the newcomers but doesn't affect the rest ... nothing lost. Runes on the other hand ...

We have almost 4x pages in the forum talking about how the relic system, as it is, is a terrible idea: - a disrespect of legendary runes holders - a ... "steal and sell it back" as a feature ... new item - at most we will get a +2xx stats depending on rune choice. Quite few people are defending it tho and would like to hear convincing arguments about it? other than the "I want something to skin in my cash".

Indeed, We are going into the new expansion with a lot of frustration, since it feels like a prelude to forced grindery, instead of the usual excitement. Imagine if they left the runes untouched and instead added the possibility to get a secondary rune effect through the relic? THAT would have been a lot of power creep but so much fun try and explore the different combinations.

I would like to argue that this system change also comes at the worst possible time, as the Flexibility if the legendary runes is most needed during release: - There will be a lot of trait rebuilding to accommodate the new weapons - There will be a lot of class /damage / class/balance, even more than usual - There will also be a lot of bug fixes needed to be done with regards to both classes and gameplay Therefore, a lot of testing would be needed, and legendary armor / runes usually make that easy, just needing some time to cover that. But now we need time, a lot of it and resources .... we can't just expect players to farm EVERY relic and test it with EVERY class ...especially since they will be a sought after item now. All to get back what we already have now but will be losing next month! EDIT: forgot the main point, we can't even choose a the BIS relic until everything is settled else, it may change or its interaction with a class might change... so yea, might choose a relic just to have it turn irrelevant for your build.

A bit underwhelming to be honest, basically: Basically: X rune offers as a 6th rune slot effect: "When using a heal skill, apply Protection.png protection to nearby allies (360 radius). (Cooldown: 10 seconds)" Having a legendary set I can swap to this effect on all my 38 toons. Now, even with this update: - I still lose that flexibility - I need to waste gold to buy back that effect for each toon - I need to wait between 6 to 9/10 months to "farm" back that same flexibility to get THAT same effect? I just want to understand how most of us should be excited about this? at best, I am using a lot of gold and energy to get THAT same effect, at worst? I am waiting for months to get it back!

You are focusing too much on semantics and glossing over the points being presented. This is not a case of "Potato, potahto": before relics we can swap runes, and after relic patch, we will be able to swap runes. The Legendry's rune functionality is to freely swap between runes, including their 6th set effects as they are now, both rune revision and removal of the 6th rune effect, as it is now, are the two side of the same coin = a hard nerf to runes of which players are complaining, rightfully so, about. And honestly, it is a bit shameless to call it a rebalance. All they are doing is remove effect from ITEM A, to give it to ITEM B and asks of us to grind for it, for few weeks, months, or years, just to recover that flexibility and go back to our starting point. To be precise: Functionality of the legendary runes NOW = swapping to any rune set, INCLUDING the 6th effect and NO, runes stat swapping is only part of that, the effect swapping is the other part ... and biggest part actually.

If people want just the stats, they are able to do it already. Just mix two rune sets and you'll have an all rune stats, if that is what you are going for. For most, without effects runes are almost useless.

And that is almost the whole point of runes, what make each rune valuable. I did not buy runes for the extra 50/100 power / condition / toughness. Instead I got them for the: - +20% Bleeding.png Bleeding duration; inflict Bleeding.png bleeding, Torment.png torment, and Poisoned.png poisoned to nearby foes for 8 seconds after using an elite skill - +20% Torment.png Torment duration; gain Regeneration.png Regeneration after inflicting a foe with Torment.png Torment. (Cooldown: 5 seconds) - +20% Burning.png Burning duration; increase strike damage by 10% while fire aura is active. - +10% Condition Duration.png Condition Duration; gain barrier after using a stance skill. - +25% Movement Speed; gain shocking aura for 4 seconds after using an elite skill. (Cooldown: 45 seconds) There is no way in hell you can convince anyone that a rune will still be as valuable after removing those effects JUST just have me farm them back for each build for each char I have, even more so when I have a full legendary rune set.

Terrible analogy here. As stated before, you did not lose anything in regards to legendary functionality. You had 10 bolts to use on 10 chars? after legendary armory, you now could use up to 4 bolts on EVERY CHAR. No loss on your side, it was a loss comparatively to others, who unlocked 4 bolts only and got the same functionality. That is without counting in the compensation you guys got. Here, we are losing an already acquired functionality, in the form the 6th rune effect and are forced / pushed to farm it back through a roundabout way, in the form of relic. So no comparison to the legendary armory issue. Gold sink aside.

And I would argue that they are right to do so. Every player has certain expectations from a game he is investing time, money and energy in. Even more so, since quite many of the changes that happen in the mmo genre turned out to be not so good changes for the player base. All changes are subject to criticism, but it comes down to few points to sell it and calm the worries of the community, especially one such the rune downgrade system and relic implementation: Is it really needed? why? what are the pros and cons of the change? My personal opinion: not at all, it brings nothing new to the table. We are actually losing an already acquired and unlocked QoL Just for an "artificial" extension to the grind. There quite many alternative systems they could have chosen. Closest one, have relic modify the 6th rune effect in a rune set. We use a Scholar rune set and instead of getting the 5% damage increase as an effect, we may use the Relic to override that effect and instead get the effect of another rune, if you choose so. THAT would have opened a flexibility door without affecting the rest of us. And so far, the replies we were provided were devoid of any selling point or any point for that matter, especially to the scale of "damage" it will do to the player base builds. I would love to hear your opinion on the matter, after you finish reading the rest of my post. I stand by my opinion, this is a dangerous precedent in the GW2 patching history. We all agree that mmos are an everchanging environment, full of changes but there are some some core systems in each mmo that are left untouched, or barely modified and only improved, and the legendary-achievement system is such a system. Afaik, only once was modified and that was during the legendary armory implementation. It had its pros and had its cons, for some high end hardcore players, but it still had quite the selling point in QoL department and turned out to be defining point for the GW2 in the whole genre. Which is different this time. As a finishing note, "this is an mmo, expect and accept any change that happens" "they can do whatever they want, because they can" "you should not have expectations" "they did not promise anything", "the sun god put them in Anet to make choices for us common mortals" these are not constructive argumentative points, if anything, they hurt the discussion, else we wouldn't need forums for feedback to begin with. I also believe quite many in Anet disagree with the change and need support and proofs to offer management on how bad this change affect the game and search for alternative solutions or implementations.

A silly comment here, but your way of thinking is setting a dangerous precedent, because by your logic, any change is allowed midway as long as it was not promised? Examples: - When you buy the game, you get 5 character slots, the way you put it, is that is fine if they take out 2 slots one day, and offer you an achievement to get them both back? since by your logic they never promised anything. - You buy a wing skin for cloak from the Gem store, one day they add an additional slot and turn each wing filling a slot, for the sake of customization, but the twist now, you need to buy back or grind for the other the wing. - You grind months, or even use gems to buy, for a 6 rune effect, you get it, then one day they take out that effect, for flexibility reasons, just to offer it back in a new slot ... and call it a new feature.