Astralporing.1957 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 On 7/11/2023 at 12:04 AM, Archenblade.3405 said: If you actually play the game, that isn't a big deal Full set of Legendary Runes cost around 2000g. If that isn't a big deal for you, i'm accepting gold donations at the moment, because compared to you i am apparently dirt poor. 19 hours ago, Min Min.9368 said: or maybe those that remember are no longer with the company One of those people was Colin. Although, in retrospect, perhaps it's not so surprising that his return is now also tied to another attempt to reintroduce gear grind under a new guise. 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashantara.8731 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 🥱 3 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said: One of those people was Colin. Although, in retrospect, perhaps it's not so surprising that his return is now also tied to another attempt to reintroduce gear grind under a new guise. If they continue making changes of this kind, I will agree with the "grind" accusation. As of now, without knowing the exact implementation options Relics will require, I think it is a bit too early to storm the barricades. Why don't we wait out those six days before we start pointing fingers? 😄 Perhaps the introduction of Relics will be an interesting addition that will allow for free build customization in the future, which can't be that bad of a thing? 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 4 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said: When you are reading through a legalese document, you are wise to assume there are loopholes in there, and that the other side may kitten you over if you won't read carefully. It doesn't take a lawyer to know what ANET has promised or hasn't. The bottom line is having expectations not in line with reality is unreasonable. If I go to KFC I'm not going to expect Wagyu Steaks to be served and then be disgruntled when it turns out they aren't serving those there. 2 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: It doesn't take a lawyer to know what ANET has promised or hasn't. The bottom line is having expectations not in line with reality is unreasonable. If I go to KFC I'm not going to expect Wagyu Steaks to be served and then be disgruntled when it turns out they aren't serving those there. If i go to KFC, i do expect them to not spit into my Zinger - even though i am 100% sure they never actually promised not to do that. 5 3 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said: If i go to KFC, i do expect them to not spit into my Zinger - even though i am 100% sure they never actually promised not to do that. They promised the government through business contracts that they wouldn't violate food safety laws which spitting in food results in. You're expecting things that were never promised or offered by a business. That's unreasonable. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 12 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: You're expecting things that were never promised or offered by a business. That's unreasonable. So, i should not trust Anet to not kitten me over in any way that they did not expressly say they won't do (which is a lot of ways, because they only rarely give any definitive promises)? Duly noted. 4 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idpersona.3810 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 Just now, Astralporing.1957 said: So, i should not trust Anet to not kitten me over in any way that they did not expressly say they won't do (which is a lot of ways, because they only rarely give any definitive promises)? Duly noted. That does seem be be their conclusion, yes. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said: So, i should not trust Anet to not kitten me over in any way that they did not expressly say they won't do (which is a lot of ways, because they only rarely give any definitive promises)? Duly noted. Most people don't think every patch they're remotely disadvantaged in is somehow victimizing them in some way. 2 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 5 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: Most people don't think every patch they're remotely disadvantaged in is somehow victimizing them in some way. That's not what you said. You said i should not hold them up to *anything* they haven't actually promised. That includes anything, including some very extreme things they not only never promised not to do, but mentioned in EULA they have a right to do. By your logic, me expecting them to not delete all my characters tomorrow would also be unreasonable, for example. 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 Just now, Astralporing.1957 said: That's not what you said. You said i should not hold them up to *anything* they haven't actually promised. That includes anything, including some very extreme things they not only never promised not to do, but mentioned in EULA they have a right to do. By your logic, me expecting them to not delete all my characters tomorrow would also be unreasonable, for example. GW2 will end one day and all your characters will be deleted. If you expected your characters to stay forever that would be unreasonable. 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) 1 minute ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: GW2 will end one day and all your characters will be deleted. If you expected your characters to stay forever that would be unreasonable. I did say "tomorrow", didn't i? But okay, i understand. I should reasonably expect GW2 to end tomorrow, i guess. Edited July 12, 2023 by Astralporing.1957 1 3 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 Just now, Astralporing.1957 said: I did say "tomorrow", did i? You said that was my logic. I clarified my logic. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 30 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: You said that was my logic. I clarified my logic. No, you did not. You muddled it. Your original logic was that if Aned did not expressly said they won't do something, it is unreasonable to expect it to not happen. I said that Anet did not expressly said they won't delete mine (or yours) accounts tomorrow, so me expecting it to not happen would be unreasonable. In that context your later response makes no sense. Are you saying that it is, after all, reasonable for me to not expect them to shut the game tomorrow (or just delete specifically my account, for no reason whatsoever)? Even though they never expressly said they won't do that? Or is that expectation unreasonable too? Because to me it seems like you do have some "unreasonable" (by your own logic) expectations about Anet actions as well, you just don't want to admit to that. 2 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said: No, you did not. You muddled it. Your original logic was that if Aned did not expressly said they won't do something, it is unreasonable to expect it to not happen. I said that Anet did not expressly said they won't delete mine (or yours) accounts tomorrow, so me expecting it to not happen would be unreasonable. In that context your later response makes no sense. Are you saying that it is, after all, reasonable for me to not expect them to shut the game tomorrow (or just delete specifically my account, for no reason whatsoever)? Even though they never expressly said they won't do that? Or is that expectation unreasonable too? Because to me it seems like you do have some "unreasonable" (by your own logic) expectations about Anet actions as well, you just don't want to admit to that. I clarified what I mean when I say unreasonable. Everything else is just your head canon. 3 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 9 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: I clarified what I mean when I say unreasonable. Everything else is just your head canon. So, by saying that expecting them to not do stuff they haven's said they won't do is unreasonable, you didn't realy mean that. What you really meant is that it's up to you to decide which expectations are unreasonable and which aren't. 4 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said: So, by saying that expecting them to not do stuff they haven's said they won't do is unreasonable, you didn't realy mean that. What you really meant is that it's up to you to decide which expectations are unreasonable and which aren't. You persist in reading into what others haven't said because your narrative doesn't work otherwise. Not a surprise since that's exactly what you're doing with ANET. 5 1 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) 19 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: You persist in reading into what others haven't said because your narrative doesn't work otherwise. Not a surprise since that's exactly what you're doing with ANET. I read in what you said exactly what you said - that i can't ever expect Anet not to do things if they never promised not to do them. You straight out called that approach unreasonable. It was only when i pointed out that there's a ton of things we do/do not expect from Anet, which Anet never promised to to/not to do that you started backpedaling. It's not my fault if you use not well thought out arguments that do not pan out in practice and then get called on it. In short, there's a ton of reasonable expectations players have on Anet that aren't strictly based on stuff they explicitly promised. many of it is assumed or implied, but it's still reasonable to have those expectations. In this case, it's clear that while you think this specific expectation was unreasonable, a lot of other players happen to disagree with you. And while you try to present yourself as one, you are not a sole arbiter on reasonability. Edited July 13, 2023 by Astralporing.1957 4 2 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vandrefalk.6823 Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 I am pretty sure we have all accepted their User Agreement which states that the game (or their Services) are subject to change and/or interruptions. For them to rework mechanics and features that will simplify a rune/relic system from balancing and maintainability perspective, while adding an additional step for us to acquire, well we have to go with it due to that agreement, and anyhow the more I think about it, the more it make sense and I like it. And then, as we have seen from the first objections on here, Anet have since said they will look into some sort of compensation for owners of legendary runes. 5 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idpersona.3810 Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Dondarrion.2748 said: I am pretty sure we have all accepted their User Agreement which states that the game (or their Services) are subject to change and/or interruptions. For them to rework mechanics and features that will simplify a rune/relic system from balancing and maintainability perspective, while adding an additional step for us to acquire, well we have to go with it due to that agreement, and anyhow the more I think about it, the more it make sense and I like it. And then, as we have seen from the first objections on here, Anet have since said they will look into some sort of compensation for owners of legendary runes. We all did accept the user agreement. But the letter of that doesn't have too much to do with the discussion, I don't think. At the heart of it, this is about player satisfaction and faith in the game. We know they're working on some compensation for this change. It will just be a matter of deciding for ourselves (each of us) if the outcome is in line with what we deem fair. If it is, player trust is maintained. And if not, it isn't. I'm hopeful they will come up with a solution that is fair to the player community and let's everyone move on with enjoying the game without getting too hung up on this particular issue/change. Only 5 days left until the 18th 🙂 Edited July 13, 2023 by idpersona.3810 3 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said: I read in what you said exactly what you said - that i can't ever expect Anet not to do things if they never promised not to do them. You straight out called that approach unreasonable. It was only when i pointed out that there's a ton of things we do/do not expect from Anet, which Anet never promised to to/not to do that you started backpedaling. It's not my fault if you use not well thought out arguments that do not pan out in practice and then get called on it. In short, there's a ton of reasonable expectations players have on Anet that aren't strictly based on stuff they explicitly promised. many of it is assumed or implied, but it's still reasonable to have those expectations. In this case, it's clear that while you think this specific expectation was unreasonable, a lot of other players happen to disagree with you. And while you try to present yourself as one, you are not a sole arbiter on reasonability. I never claimed to be the sole arbiter of what was reasonable. This is why I clarified my logic on what unreasonable means. The difference between you and me is that I present my own position while you attempt to project a position onto me and others to fit your narrative because without this projection your narrative fails. 2 1 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) 16 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: I never claimed to be the sole arbiter of what was reasonable. This is why I clarified my logic on what unreasonable means. You did not clarify anything. You did the exact opposite. Your first statement was clear - you deemed that expecting what is not explicitly promised is unreasonable. Your second statement however was trying to downplay and water down that original, clear statement. After that "clarifying", i no longer know whether your first statement hold true always, or are there exceptions to it - and if so, what those exceptions are. Notice, that, if there are any exceptions, we're back to point one. You thinking in this case expectations weren't reasonable, and me thinking they were. And the issue of whether they explicitly promised something or just "merely" implied it being irrelevant. Edited July 13, 2023 by Astralporing.1957 4 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 5 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said: You did not clarify anything. You did the exact opposite. I clarified twice and even provided a specific example. You then pretended my logic was the opposite of that example and carried on as if nothing happened. No wonder you feel disgruntled about ANET's changes. You probably made up all sorts of things in your head that they promised you which they never did. 1 1 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: I clarified twice and even provided a specific example. You then pretended my logic was the opposite of that example and carried on as if nothing happened. No wonder you feel disgruntled about ANET's changes. You probably made up all sorts of things in your head that they promised you which they never did. No. The issue is not with the example itself. It's with fact that you supplying it implies that your earlier statement does not, in fact, hold always - but without you clearly showing borders of when it stops being applicable. What is the difference between expecting two different things Anet never explicitly promised that makes one expectation reasonable and other unreasonable, apart from your own subjective judgement on each case? You never clarified that in the "clarification" you've made. You have only just made it clear that a distinction does exist. Notice, that if the distinction exists, but you cannot clearly define it, it just means that (un)reasonability is not tied to Anet not making an explicit promise about something, but is simply tied to your personal view on which expectation is reasonable and which is not. Edited July 14, 2023 by Astralporing.1957 2 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainbow Dragon.7268 Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 (edited) so where is the source saying its gonna be a long grind for relic? or are people just assuming? Edited July 14, 2023 by Rainbow Dragon.7268 reasons 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said: No. The issue is not with the example itself. It's with fact that you supplying it implies that your earlier statement does not, in fact, hold always - but without you clearly showing borders of when it stops being applicable. The actual issue is you don't acknowledge other people's arguments but instead construct strawman versions in your own mind to argue against. I'll reiterate my core argument: ANET never promised you that runes will never change. ANET never promised you that it'll never create another gear slot in which some effects of runes might be shifted to. ANET never promised you that having legendary runes makes you immune to the costs of this new gear slot. 2 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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