i dont get it? quickness is tied to unleashed pet.. when unleashed ranger hammer has the cc skills

[doc.9162]

are there any ranger mains that can make sense of this for me?

i was an engineer main, been trawling through the classes for something as good. 🙂

umm i play all the classes casually, and this seems like a basic mistake from the balance team?

dunno tying quickness into disables on pet unleashed, means you cant use the hammer 3 and 5 cc's, which doesn't make sense right?

just to clarify why isn't quickness tied into the unleashed ranger side?

 

[Mell.4873]

45 minutes ago, doc.9162 said:

are there any ranger mains that can make sense of this for me?

i was an engineer main, been trawling through the classes for something as good. 🙂

umm i play all the classes casually, and this seems like a basic mistake from the balance team?

dunno tying quickness into disables on pet unleashed, means you cant use the hammer 3 and 5 cc's, which doesn't make sense right?

just to clarify why isn't quickness tied into the unleashed ranger side?

 

This update should have allowed to select the Hammer skills you want on each Flip.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Beddo.1907]

The unleashed pet state was supposed to make you defensive and instead of quickness you get stab.

[doc.9162]

3 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

This update should have allowed to select the Hammer skills you want on each Flip.

thanks for the answer, still bit ambiguous, so im not missing something here.. unleashed pet gets quickness with disables. (2 and 4 hammer damage no cc) unleashed ranger gets stability with disables. (3 and 5 hammer cc)

seems kitten

 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

It took me more than a few tries to even understand what's being asked here.

I think the topic is about Enhancing Impact? If so, you get quickness on disable when ranger is unleashed, and stability on disable when pet is unleashed.  

For hammer, this means you will get only stability as only unleashed pet #3 and #5 are disables.  To get quickness you'd have to use other CC's a ranger has, as Hammer itself has no CC's on the unleashed ranger side.

The other way to get quickness is Let Loose, but I don't even think anet at this point knows how the hell it works. 

As an aside, I actually never looked at Let Loose trait until just now because initially I thought that's what the topic was about, but apparently you only actually get quickness on unleash in PvE?! I don't even want to go back to the Twitch VoD and see if there is a reason for that as there can be no justifiable reason for that.  

Edited July 12, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[doc.9162]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

For hammer, this means you will get only stability as only unleashed pet #3 and #5 are disables.  To get quickness you'd have to use other CC's a ranger has, as Hammer itself has no CC's on the unleashed ranger side.

The other way to get quickness is Let Loose, but I don't even think anet at this point knows how the hell it works. 

huh alright.. lol, i guess they don't want any hammer wielding quickness builds. could spam a bunch of stability though! 🙂

thank you for answering this for me, i don't play ranger enough to have a proper opinion.

but dang! this balance team must love their psychedelics.

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

10 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

As an aside, I actually never looked at Let Loose trait until just now because initially I thought that's what the topic was about, but apparently you only actually get quickness on unleash in PvE?! I don't even want to go back to the Twitch VoD and see if there is a reason for that as there can be no justifiable reason for that.  

In PvP, unleash ambush skills are pretty strong. Instantly recharging it on weapon swap (letting you ambush->swap->ambush) is pretty potent, and you still get might and fury from the trait as well.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

Just now, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

In PvP, unleash ambush skills are pretty strong. Instantly recharging it on weapon swap (letting you ambush->swap->ambush) is pretty potent, and you still get might and fury from the trait as well.

But right now you have to Unleash Pet ->Unleash Ranger -> Ambush > Weapon Swap -> Unleash Pet -> Unleash Ranger-> Ambush.

 

Just to use two attacks.

Hopefully July 18 actually let's the class be usable.

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

2 minutes ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

But right now you have to Unleash Pet ->Unleash Ranger -> Ambush > Weapon Swap -> Unleash Pet -> Unleash Ranger-> Ambush.

 

Just to use two attacks.

Hopefully July 18 actually let's the class be usable.

July 18th will make it so you immediately have the ambush when you weapon swap

[Roadkizzle.2157]

1 minute ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

July 18th will make it so you immediately have the ambush when you weapon swap

Hopefully that's what actually makes it to patch release.

And hopefully that's going to be enough to let the class be a viable QuickDPS.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

53 minutes ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

In PvP, unleash ambush skills are pretty strong. Instantly recharging it on weapon swap (letting you ambush->swap->ambush) is pretty potent, and you still get might and fury from the trait as well.

I don't see how when this exists:

Lesser Quickening Zephyr - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

Pet swap is 20s / 16s traited; Let Loose would actually be identical except you get might / fury in addition instead of superspeed.  

If the problem is it being shareable, reduce the shared quickness to 1-2s or something like they do with soulbeast stances. 

It's just part of the bad balancing for Ranger though--they did this same thing with Spotter to make it useless when it wasn't really super strong before considering all the other places you can get shared fury.  

[Zyreva.1078]

12 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

For hammer, this means you will get only stability as only unleashed pet #3 and #5 are disables.  To get quickness you'd have to use other CC's a ranger has, as Hammer itself has no CC's on the unleashed ranger side.

You can proc quickness with hammer cc by swapping unleashed mode mid cast.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I don't see how when this exists:

Lesser Quickening Zephyr - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

Pet swap is 20s / 16s traited; Let Loose would actually be identical except you get might / fury in addition instead of superspeed.  

If the problem is it being shareable, reduce the shared quickness to 1-2s or something like they do with soulbeast stances. 

It's just part of the bad balancing for Ranger though--they did this same thing with Spotter to make it useless when it wasn't really super strong before considering all the other places you can get shared fury.  

The point of Let Loose is to allow the Untamed be a DPS support class letting the Untamed player provide 100% uptime of the Quickness boon to their entire team.

The point of the other Quickness traits Untamed has is so they can provide themselves Quickness when doing pure DPS or want one of the other GM traits.

Let Loose will have to have the boon duration to last the entire 10s cooldown of Weapon Swap. Its a sign the developers have no clue what they're doing when they tied the reset of the Ambush cooldown too a 10s cooldown but they only granted the boon a 4s duration.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Roadkizzle.2157

[Dredsh.2360]

47 minutes ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

The point of Let Loose is to allow the Untamed be a DPS support class letting the Untamed player provide 100% uptime of the Quickness boon to their entire team.

The point of the other Quickness traits Untamed has is so they can provide themselves Quickness when doing pure DPS or want one of the other GM traits.

Let Loose will have to have the boon duration to last the entire 10s cooldown of Weapon Swap. Its a sign the developers have no clue what they're doing when they tied the reset of the Ambush cooldown too a 10s cooldown but they only granted the boon a 4s duration.

The IDEA behind "Let Loose" is that you use 2 ambushes in succession to apply your quickness, giving you 16sec of quick every 9sec with 100% boon duration.

The main issue here is that it gets very clunky and wastes a lot time with how clunky unleashing it is atm.

Hammer is also at a big disadvantage here since it's ambush is on a 2sec channeling time making it a total of 4 secs + all the time you spend switch weapons/unleashing.

I believe with the 18th update this particular issue will be heavily aliviated, but i do think that Untamed needs a second look at all of it's traits since they are balanced around "Fervent Force", a good start IMO would be allowing pet disables to trigger "Enhancing Impact" & "Debilitating Blows"

Edited July 12, 2023 by Dredsh.2360
typo

[Roadkizzle.2157]

Just now, Dredsh.2360 said:

The IDEA behind "Let Loose" is that you use 2 ambushes in succession to apply your quickness, giving you 16sec of alac every 9sec with 100% boon duration.

The main issue here is that it gets very clunky and wastes a lot time with how clunky unleashing it is atm.

Hammer is also at a big disadvantage here since it's ambush is on a 2sec channeling time making it a total of 4 secs + all the time you spend switch weapons/unleashing.

I believe with the 18th update this particular issue will be heavily aliviated, but i do think that Untamed needs a second look at all of it's traits since they are balanced around "Fervent Force", a good start IMO would be allowing pet disables to trigger "Enhancing Impact" & "Debilitating Blows"

No. That wasn't the idea. That was the flawed implementation.

 

The developers have made it clear that they are working to give all 9 Professions a Quickness Support and an Alacrity support spec.

Untamed will be unable to fill that role if it cannot maintain 100% uptime. So the idea was to give a Quick support class in Untamed. It was just the execution of that idea that was very flawed...

 

But that execution SHOULD be fixed when the new patch is released on July 18. According to the developers statement they are removing the need to constantly juggle the Unleashed status only requiring Weapon Swap to reenable the ambushes.

So you'll swap to hammer, do a 2s channel and wait 8 more seconds to swap to your second hammer and do another 2s channel. That should provide 100% uptime.

The cooldowns for Untamed really don't seem to different from other classes and that's all Fervent Force adjusted. I don't think its removal requires a rework of everything.

[Dredsh.2360]

8 minutes ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

No. That wasn't the idea. That was the flawed implementation.

 

The developers have made it clear that they are working to give all 9 Professions a Quickness Support and an Alacrity support spec.

Untamed will be unable to fill that role if it cannot maintain 100% uptime. So the idea was to give a Quick support class in Untamed. It was just the execution of that idea that was very flawed...

 

But that execution SHOULD be fixed when the new patch is released on July 18. According to the developers statement they are removing the need to constantly juggle the Unleashed status only requiring Weapon Swap to reenable the ambushes.

So you'll swap to hammer, do a 2s channel and wait 8 more seconds to swap to your second hammer and do another 2s channel. That should provide 100% uptime.

The cooldowns for Untamed really don't seem to different from other classes and that's all Fervent Force adjusted. I don't think its removal requires a rework of everything.

The intended gameplay IDEIA is that you use weapon swap with two ambushes in succession to provide 100% quick, flawed IMPLEMENTATION is the fact they did not consider weapon swap/unleash/boon duration is in the wrong spot to support that IDEA.

I did not suggest any of Untamed cooldowns be adjusted, since some of them where in the last patch, what i believe is that some of it's traits don't make much sense since Unt is not nearly as invested in CC as it was with FF, and the pet not proccing those traits was probably a balance choice as it would probably be too much, but on the matter of cooldowns, "Enhancing Impact" & "Debilitating Blows" internal CD's seem to be a bit unnecessary/grief at this point as the "Unleash Mechanic" 1sec CD since you don't switch nearly as much, this one i believe should be "0.5" as to only prevent overclick.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

8 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

You can proc quickness with hammer cc by swapping unleashed mode mid cast.

Interesting, however that seems like so much of an edge case it never even crossed my mind to test it as a theorycrafter let alone what I imagine the general populace is doing. 

As in, that is very akin to using Staff #3 into your pet to get reduced CD (by pet swapping at just the right time) -- sure its technically possible but you have to be pretty far down the mechanics hole to utilize it.  

8 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

The point of Let Loose is to allow the Untamed be a DPS support class letting the Untamed player provide 100% uptime of the Quickness boon to their entire team.

I actually hate they balance around 100% boon uptime, because it creates pre-conceived expectations that are hard to meet.  They used to have it right with Spotter specifically, as it was just the right amount of fury to allies to get a ranger in a party, but 100% uptime of fury wasn't pushed nearly as hard as quickness/alac uptime is now.

Not to mention Spotter just happened and wasn't nearly as clunky as what we are discussing here for Let Loose. Let Loose implementation is the same stupid mistake as alac Druid being tied to CA form, you should NOT have to do mechanics to provide boons to your party. 

That's what things like Spirits are for--you put it down it provides boons and goes away.  This spamming of CA and Unleashed ambushes to get secondary boons just wastes the intent of the actual skill (healing for CA and damage/CC for ambushes).  

The fixes are so easy that it really is scary they were missed by actual devs:

• You pulse alac to nearby allies while in CA form just like Spotter used to work
• You give quickness on Untamed whenever you Unleash Ranger, with appropriate ICD since the Unleash is 1s intervals (give it a ready icon like ambushes have)

With these two changes you aren't wasting CA heals randomly to give alac, and you remove quickness from the ambush skill itself because you might not want to actually use your ambush at whatever point you are giving quickness.