pounce

[felix.2386]

pounce in pvp does more than level 2 eviscerate damage on berserker stats to CC'ed, movement impaired foes with 8 second cooldown, no energy requirement, 3 targets, gives 3 second vigor instead of 1 might and has 450 range.

they don't even try to mask it anymore.

Edited July 17, 2023 by felix.2386

[Guy.9207]

I'm telling you man, Warrior is the "f2p" class of gw2, they try to make it bad so that you are pushed to play a more "premium" class like Firebrand for example (and thus you need to buy their expacs so that you get access to them).

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Definitley doesn't do more damage than lvl 2 berserk if my math is right:

Power: 2000, Armor 2500, target disabled:

Pounce: (922.5 * 1.05 * 2000 * 1.20) / 2500 = 930

Power: 2000, Armor 2500

Eviscerate: (922.5 * 1.666 * 2000) / 2500 = 1,229

Both are 8s CD, Eviscerate is 300 to Pounce 450 range but you don't need the disabled condition to trigger its damage.  

Energy requirement is probably negligible since Warrior doesn't have to manage the pet (in all circumstances except merged Soulbeast).

Pounce may win on the 3s vigor and 3 target but that's about it.

[Guy.9207]

You also forgot the fact that you need adrenaline *and* Core Warrior/Berserker to use it. Spellbreaker is limited to a weaker version and Bladesworn simply doesn't have it altogether.

[Hotride.2187]

When does eviscerate do any dmg at all, you can literally walk away from it.

[Mungrul.9358]

Hmm, I think I've just twigged why Warrior's Elite skills are so naff. ANet see burst skills as being a Warrior's real "Super" (a la DOTA / Destiny 2 / Overwatch / Etc.), and they can't have Warrior having TWO SUPERS!

[Aaron.1294]

@felix.2386it deals more dmg due to huge amount of damage modifiers ranger has... Unlike warrior. 

[oscuro.9720]

17 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Definitley doesn't do more damage than lvl 2 berserk if my math is right:

Power: 2000, Armor 2500, target disabled:

Pounce: (922.5 * 1.05 * 2000 * 1.20) / 2500 = 930

Power: 2000, Armor 2500

Eviscerate: (922.5 * 1.666 * 2000) / 2500 = 1,229

Both are 8s CD, Eviscerate is 300 to Pounce 450 range but you don't need the disabled condition to trigger its damage.  

Energy requirement is probably negligible since Warrior doesn't have to manage the pet (in all circumstances except merged Soulbeast).

Pounce may win on the 3s vigor and 3 target but that's about it.

You are correct. In wvw it will do more damage, in PvP it will do less. I’d still argue pounce wins in PvP, but as you said it’s not like it’s a massive margin. 
I would disagree with you about resource though. I believe our burst skills should be getting better bang for the cd and/or cast time due to resource requirement. Maybe not that much at level 1 (since that’s quite a low bar to clear), but level 2 and 3 should be getting exponential returns, not linear imo. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

2 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

You are correct. In wvw it will do more damage, in PvP it will do less. I’d still argue pounce wins in PvP, but as you said it’s not like it’s a massive margin. 
I would disagree with you about resource though. I believe our burst skills should be getting better bang for the cd and/or cast time due to resource requirement. Maybe not that much at level 1 (since that’s quite a low bar to clear), but level 2 and 3 should be getting exponential returns, not linear imo. 

That's fair, but also why I brought up the pet, as unless merge soulbeast you oftentimes lose a giant chunk of potential damage to AI unless you position it perfectly.  It's doubly bad on Druid which also has its own resource to manage in addition to the pet. 

Not saying anet shouldn't fix that across the board though.  It's a common pattern that resource / mechanics management doesn't produce nearly the effectiveness it should.  I think bladesworn suffers from this a bit too, as you must build the resource and remain stationary to try to set up bursts when other classes (including my own in ranger) can set it up easier from range.

 

[oscuro.9720]

32 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

That's fair, but also why I brought up the pet, as unless merge soulbeast you oftentimes lose a giant chunk of potential damage to AI unless you position it perfectly.  It's doubly bad on Druid which also has its own resource to manage in addition to the pet. 

Not saying anet shouldn't fix that across the board though.  It's a common pattern that resource / mechanics management doesn't produce nearly the effectiveness it should.  I think bladesworn suffers from this a bit too, as you must build the resource and remain stationary to try to set up bursts when other classes (including my own in ranger) can set it up easier from range.

 

Cross-mechanic balance becomes a whole rats nest of comparison issues. For example, the best use of the pet in competitive isn’t necessarily damage, but it’s ability to help you control the pacing of the fight while in a defensive positioning (as you mentioned).

I would argue the rest of ranger’s weapon skills are balanced factoring in a lower power budget for their mechanic than Warrior (and so are most other classes). And that’s the fundamental argument I think. That warrior’s burst skills are over-weighted by the Devs when factoring in how to balance the class. For most weapons, either the cost of use doesn’t line up with what is in the game (for example, I would argue the cost of use of eviscerate is higher than pounce, and the payoff is arguably lower) or the weapon kit is under tuned because it factors in the burst skill as a part of the weapon kit instead of a mechanic (see; the incompetence of many weapons on Bladesworn because they don’t have their burst skill and are impotent without it).

The question, then, is whether warrior’s mechanic deserves to be weighted so highly, to which I would respond no. I am obviously biased, but feel confident that this is not a biased stance to take. Though this post is already very long so I’m not going to include that here 😂

Edited July 17, 2023 by oscuro.9720

[Lighter.5631]

On 7/16/2023 at 11:16 PM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Definitley doesn't do more damage than lvl 2 berserk if my math is right:

Power: 2000, Armor 2500, target disabled:

Pounce: (922.5 * 1.05 * 2000 * 1.20) / 2500 = 930

Power: 2000, Armor 2500

Eviscerate: (922.5 * 1.666 * 2000) / 2500 = 1,229

Both are 8s CD, Eviscerate is 300 to Pounce 450 range but you don't need the disabled condition to trigger its damage.  

Energy requirement is probably negligible since Warrior doesn't have to manage the pet (in all circumstances except merged Soulbeast).

Pounce may win on the 3s vigor and 3 target but that's about it.

Wiki shows different numbers, but in-game pvp, the number is higher than level 2 evis.

or you were using PvE numbers in a pvp thread, even the pvp wiki number is not accurate.

in-game, pounce hit harder than level 2 evis, without trait modifiers.

while evis needs to reach at least 20 adrenaline, all pounce require is any form of movement impair.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1873491143

this soulbeast build fights fully merged, so there's no pet and is full melee, you just get 6 "burst" skills instead of pets, you only unmerge when you need stealth

and pounce alone crit for 5.5k on heavy, not counting sic em and opening strike and wolf. and has plenty of CC, evade, mobility and doesn't need build up like adrenaline to unload damage..and f1 crit for like 12k+. a similar damage decapi zerker build will die in an instant..

i usually don't make cross class comparisons, like the 20k shadow flare build, but glass soulbeast and glass warrior is more similar than ever at this point.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Lighter.5631