So, you ignored the feedback for Scourge and Druid

[Mauti.3520]

1 minute ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

No one was ever asking 10+ target scourge, but if alac is not out of CA...

I'm sorry, Druid will be kicked out from PvE content permanently. PERMANENTLY! Because it cannot function in the way it is designed. No reactive burst healing, no reliable alac uptime. And using it may increase the chance of getting wiped.

As a commander, I won't accept any alac Druid in my squad. 

You are babbling nonsense.

[Drag You Down.2615]

21 minutes ago, Mauti.3520 said:

You are babbling nonsense.

If you want to prove me wrong, use alac heal druid to do HT CM or Wing 6 with pugs. You will realize that you can save no one. Not even yourself. 

[Mauti.3520]

9 minutes ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

If you want to prove me wrong, use alac heal druid to do HT CM or Wing 6 with pugs. You will realize that you can save no one. Not even yourself. 

I don't need to prove you wrong. Guild Wars 2's history  already does. Druid was never brought for reactive heals and carrying feeders that eat every mechanic imaginable.
It was always brought for boons/unique modifiers, and convenience factor to handle mechanics, spamming Celestial Avatar to maintain Might FOR YEARS.

Heal came last, was just the last bit that made the build the ultimate kit and for most of it's existence it was completely destroyed in heal output and defensive carry by a Tempest.Which was the actual hard carry Healer pick that barely anyone played because it lacked unique modifiers and role compression convenience for quite some raid mechanics.

The healing aspect was usually quite low and only EoD saw a reasonable increase in it's output to compete with HAM and HFB. It also made it completely passive. Yes, it was a big advantage to have CA as a reactive tool - but PvE is not really the environment for that and simply not needed most of the time.

You simply can't have it all. When you want a super passive and reactive giga healer you gotta run no Alac but AlacDPS+QuickDPS or you wanna role compress the boon into a healer. And there should be some kind of trade-off.

[Radiancee.6537]

- deleted because duplicate

Edited July 18, 2023 by Radiancee.6537

[Radiancee.6537]

1 hour ago, Mauti.3520 said:

I don't need to prove you wrong. Guild Wars 2's history  already does. Druid was never brought for reactive heals and carrying feeders that eat every mechanic imaginable.
It was always brought for boons/unique modifiers, and convenience factor to handle mechanics, spamming Celestial Avatar to maintain Might FOR YEARS.

Heal came last, was just the last bit that made the build the ultimate kit and for most of it's existence it was completely destroyed in heal output and defensive carry by a Tempest.Which was the actual hard carry Healer pick that barely anyone played because it lacked unique modifiers and role compression convenience for quite some raid mechanics.

The healing aspect was usually quite low and only EoD saw a reasonable increase in it's output to compete with HAM and HFB. It also made it completely passive. Yes, it was a big advantage to have CA as a reactive tool - but PvE is not really the environment for that and simply not needed most of the time.

You simply can't have it all. When you want a super passive and reactive giga healer you gotta run no Alac but AlacDPS+QuickDPS or you wanna role compress the boon into a healer. And there should be some kind of trade-off.

I tried to check if you have any experience. Since you don't have KP.me, I doubt you have any meaningful experience with real endcontent like Raid CMs or the harder EoD CMs.

"I don't need to prove you wrong." says everything. It also feels arrogant. Also, answering with "You are babbling nonsense." to constructive feedback is just ignorant. 

Cheers.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Radiancee.6537

[Drag You Down.2615]

44 minutes ago, Mauti.3520 said:

You simply can't have it all. When you want a super passive and reactive giga healer you gotta run no Alac but AlacDPS+QuickDPS or you wanna role compress the boon into a healer. And there should be some kind of trade-off.

Not sure if you are CmC's fan or you never played heal druid, but I main healer so I play all the healer builds I can on every class. 

1. There were other sources of might out of CA like warhorn and previous frost spirit and ppl can generate might by themselves, so might was very rarely a problem on CA. But alac is different, all we were asking is just to give the same chance of access to alac like what might had before, give some extra access when we are unable to use CA. 

2. You said a lot about reactive healers. Then, just tell me where can I use Druid? What can it do that no one else can? What can it do better than other classes? Well, most healers did far better than Druid. Why would I use something inconvenient and inconsistent? It will be abandoned in pve, just like Tempest, or even worse than Tempest. 

[Mauti.3520]

5 minutes ago, Radiancee.6537 said:

I tried to check if you have any experience. Since you don't have KP.me, I doubt you have any meaningful experience with real endcontent like Raid CMs or the harder EoD CMs. "I don't need to prove you wrong." says everything. It also feels arrogant. 

Also, answering with "You are babbling nonsense." to constructive feedback is just ignorant. 

Cheers.

my kp.me is:  77emx

The forum for some reason still keeps my old accountname that I changed a year ago

[Radiancee.6537]

2 minutes ago, Mauti.3520 said:

my kp.me is:  77emx

The forum for some reason still keeps my old accountname that I changed a year ago

I crossed that section out to be fair.

Still, I strongly have to disagree with you. Other people already answered what's the problem. We also already have so much feedback in the older threads.

[Mauti.3520]

Probably, yes. Still I consider expressions like "will be completely gone from PvE" and "I won't let any Druid in my squad" as UTTER nonsense and not a form of constructive feedback in any way. And that's what I put it that way.

That's my main gripe with these forums these days. God kitten balance and design issues in this game are incredibly nuanced and layered, but people act like a mob calling the apocalypse. It's not even close. Druid's pumping whether one likes it or not the way it does pump. (I still consider 1 sec Alac in Avatar stingy, but it's already so much better)
And everything who's not dooming or ad hominem trashtalking is now a cmc fanboy or else.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Mauti.3520

[Drag You Down.2615]

54 minutes ago, Mauti.3520 said:

Probably, yes. Still I consider expressions like "will be completely gone from PvE" and "I won't let any Druid in my squad" as UTTER nonsense and not a form of constructive feedback in any way. And that's what I put it that way.

That's my main gripe with these forums these days. God kitten balance and design issues in this game are incredibly nuanced and layered, but people act like a mob calling the apocalypse. It's not even close. Druid's pumping whether one likes it or not the way it does pump. (I still consider 1 sec Alac in Avatar stingy, but it's already so much better)
And everything who's not dooming or ad hominem trashtalking is now a cmc fanboy or else.

I apologize if my tone is too harsh to you. But the above two things I said were rational and honest. 

I don't want to increase the chance of getting wiped when I play something like OLC or HT. I need to be responsible to everyone who joined my squad, and reduce the chance of being wiped. I know increasing the base duration of alac in GotL may help but it is still a design failure. So I will not want to see alac heal druid at all. But dps druid on the other hand seems fine even I didn't try it myself. 

Also, I assume druid will die in pve because the way it applies alac is very similar to Tempest now. And even tempest has a high base duration of alac, still not many people plays it. It is just not suitable for the current pve environment and everyone else does the things much better than it. So I assume druid will face the same attitude like what tempest did. 

I have to say Scourge is not that bad now for alac. But people what longer shade is not because number of targets in pve. We one have few targets in raid and strikes, 5 should be enough. But the problem is the consistency of the position. Shades are used to be like defense towers, now they are more like pets. 

The reason why I dislike cmc is because I found he is lack of insight and logical mind. I could not prove that those changes are made thoughtfully or carefully. 

[otto.5684]

I am not a Scourge or necro player. I still cannot kittening believe that they are going to leave shade at 8 secs, even after every single player told them this is a dumb idea.

[Mauti.3520]

But what on earth is CMC supposed to do with Druid in PvE?

The OVERWHELMING feedback of the last year was how unfun and unrealiable spirts are and how bad it is having them tied to Alacrity... and they listened. But if the application moves from one skill it has to go somewhere else.

Just annecdotal: I tried  to make a fervent force Untamed Alac DPS work with this godawful spirit spamming that would constantly die in Fractal CMs+T4 was easily the most unfun and clunky experience I ever had in the game as a boon support. While Druids where unhappy these things where godawful too and gatekept them from bringing utility.
That was the feedback from EoD Launch to May this year. And they kinda tried to changed that.

But then what this forum wants is like:

• We want to give all the boons, heals and stuff, but we don't want to use Utility skills for that, we don't want Celestial Avatar for that, we don't want Pet Skills for that and we don't want pet swap for that.

How is that supposed to work? Apparently Druids want to afk, never use any significant part of their entire kit pro-actively and only want to react once a green health bar drops or boss uses a specific mechanic. That's the impression I get from that feedback and it's not going to work if you wanna maintain boons.

Also Heal Tempest is fine, has been fine all the years and only ever got better. But you cannot afk on it and for the most part of it's existence it was only gatekept by frost spirit's 5% damage modifier for the squad and sun spirit's burn for the squad.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Mauti.3520

[Drag You Down.2615]

2 minutes ago, Mauti.3520 said:

But what on earth is CMC supposed to do with Druid in PvE

Because his position, he is the team leader of skill and balance team, that's what I remember. So he is the one who has the final right of making a decision. 

3 minutes ago, Mauti.3520 said:

We want to give all the boons, heals and stuff, but we don't want to use Utility skills for that, we don't want Celestial Avatar for that, we don't want Pet Skills for that and we don't want pet swap for that

Whoever said this was also ridiculous, but I mean there's more solutions. 

In design profession (luckily, my design teacher was a true designer. ) you always need to come up with multiple solutions with analysis of pros and cons. 

For grace of the land, if we want to emphasize the theme of land, we can come up with the idea of positioning. Like:

If there is a pet or summon is within 240 of you, you will pulse 2 secs alac around you every 3 secs. Summon includes ranger spirits, renegade spirits, engi turrets etc.

Or if you want to emphasize "grace" it can be sth like:

applying regeneration, vigor, protection, or resistance on a full health ally will also grant alac, this can only be triggered once per interval.

Sth like this. There's so many ways of making this good, and cmc chose the worst. I didn't say my ideas are good, but at least it is possible. 

[Drag You Down.2615]

3 minutes ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

applying regeneration, vigor, protection, or resistance on a full health ally will also grant alac, this can only be triggered once per interval.

Maybe above the health threshold will be better, like above 80 or 90%

[Alcatraznc.3869]

Your mistake was/is to play something that isnt related to Elementalist.

 

 

[SaffronCity.3402]

They specifically said in the 6/27 patch that they would look at 1. DPS Scourge 2.ALAC Mirage and 3. ALAC Willbender....I think they need to either read the kitten forums or get their eyesight checked because they did not read the weeks of scourge cries for the shade duration, alac mirage method of alacrity application is rough and it needs the torment and bleeding back to what it was before 6/27 because the confusion change was not beneficial, and alac willbender...the changes today are pretty meh. Also, why is it so hard to realize that using all your CA on druid for the alacrity spam is a bad idea if it's such a big part of the healing aspect...but all of a sudden a HoT spec that was definitely intended to be a healer is out of nowhere now a DPS monster? As druid, I think even the obnoxious task of babysitting spirits for alacrity maintenance is still preferable to the current patch's bs. ALSO, omg there's more... the stupidity with might application through PET SWAP? uhhhh the nightmare continues....

[Mauti.3520]

13 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

Your mistake was/is to play something that isnt related to Elementalist.

 

 

Yeah, as we all know Elementalist is completely dominating in PvE for years and for years. It was so powerful, that's where all the downstate memes came from, right? 😅

[Drag You Down.2615]

1 hour ago, Mauti.3520 said:

Also Heal Tempest is fine, has been fine all the years and only ever got better. But you cannot afk on it and for the most part of it's existence it was only gatekept by frost spirit's 5% damage modifier for the squad and sun spirit's burn for the squad.

Apparently not a lot of people think so, it is one of the rarest alac heal in pve.

[Mauti.3520]

1 hour ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

Apparently not a lot of people think so, it is one of the rarest alac heal in pve.

Yes but rate of play doesn't necessarily mean a build is good or bad. To some degree those numbers clearly correlate with how strong/good a spec is but they do not cause it.
Some specs like Willbender or Weaver are completely amazeballs and soooo good and in PvE the player count is rather low. Same for Spellbreaker. Same for Tempest but especially after June Patch it got some momentum with the increases to the Boon DPS and Boon Heal Spec.

A broader audience may simply not like the way it is played, mainly long channelled Overloads. A lot of players generally seem to shy away from Elementalist after years of "piano downstate" framing. And also people really like simple, easy, passive builds. You still encounter so many Rifle DPS Mechs and Power Alac Rifle Mechs despite these two specs being really REALLY bad - Because that's what Rifle Mech and Power Alac Mech are these days - and people love 'em still because super easy and reliable though objectively not a competitive build any more.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Mauti.3520

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, Mauti.3520 said:

Yes but rate of play doesn't necessarily mean a build is good or bad.

And buil being good on paper doesn't mean much if noone's playing it.

[soulknight.9620]

9 hours ago, Mauti.3520 said:

Heal came last, was just the last bit that made the build the ultimate kit and for most of it's existence it was completely destroyed in heal output and defensive carry by a Tempest.

Excuse me? Tempest was barely playable for past few years (before the buffs) cause it provided 0 utility outside decent heals. Tempest was a gimmick like hscrg. Tempest got to a point of being accepted in groups only when alac, stab, aegis got introduced to the kit. Being a good healer is not enough nowadays, you need to bring the support (boons that is) with you. Dont get me wrong tempest is good now, but it was not a few years ago. You simply cant compare a boon support heal class to a heal class with no support. 

9 hours ago, Mauti.3520 said:

You simply can't have it all.

HFB and HAM would strongly dissagree. 

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

Just because it is theoretically possible to run alac on a durid does not mean that every group in the game has to do it. You can still play druid as a healer.

Looks a bit like the re-introduction of trade-offs. Durid can buff alac, but healing efficiency goes down. Scrapper can buff quickness, but DPS or healing go down.

Edited July 19, 2023 by HnRkLnXqZ.1870

[rotten.9753]

8 hours ago, Mauti.3520 said:

How is that supposed to work? Apparently Druids want to afk, never use any significant part of their entire kit pro-actively and only want to react once a green health bar drops or boss uses a specific mechanic. That's the impression I get from that feedback and it's not going to work if you wanna maintain boons.

That's pretty much what I can observe here - red bars go up, alac is removed or baseline and druid is finally a real healer. Well, it's not going to be like that because there's not enough pressure during fights to use a full time healer.

[Narrenwinter.2637]

21 hours ago, Athef.6879 said:

They didn't ignore it. They never even read anything we've posted on the forums. I'd like to act surprised, I really would; but I'm not.

Which is already bad enough, but they even asked for our feedback (which is supposedly the only point of these "balance" previews), only to not even bother to read anything.

[Gaeb.2837]

22 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

I am not a Scourge or necro player. I still cannot kittening believe that they are going to leave shade at 8 secs, even after every single player told them this is a dumb idea.

Yep, kind of frustrating. I see a lot of non-scourge players trying to say this isn't any different than before based on youtube videos of dummy parses, but a- They don't play scourge and b- Dummy parses aren't reflective of how raids, strikes, fractals, and open world events go (phases, movement, target changes, etc) ... they're dummy parses.