07/18/2023—July 18 Balance Changes

[Asra.8746]

Quote

Thief

Deadeye

• One in the Chamber: Reduced bonus damage from 300% to 10% in PvE only.
• Premeditation: Reduced damage bonus per boon from 1.5% to 1% in PvE only.
• Iron Sight: Reduced damage bonus against marked targets from 15% to 10% in PvE only.
• Shadow Flare: Reduced power coefficient from 2.0 to 1.0.
• Shadow Swap: Reduced power coefficient from 2.0 to 1.0.

Specter

• Shadestep: Reduced alacrity duration from 2 seconds to 1.25 seconds in PvE only.
• Strength of Shadows: This trait no longer reduces incoming damage and no longer increases the duration of torment inflicted by Rot Wallow Venom, but instead increases torment damage by 25% in addition to converting vitality to expertise.
• Larcenous Torment: This trait no longer increases torment damage, and instead steals health from an enemy when you apply torment to them.
• Shadow Sap: Increased protection duration from 2.5 seconds to 4 seconds in PvE only.

...and they gutted dps DE again back to lower dps than AoE specs...nice! 🤡

Forgot to add that while they heavily nerfed dps DE, dps SPC got a nice buff, especially for solo gameplay.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Asra.8746

[JaxLeo.7912]

these nerfs are way too heavy handed, and at least for deadeye they do NOT adress the issue, deadeye will still be able to run 100% quickness with no investment on boon duration, not that it matters anyway since after this nerf we can't do decent damage anymore.

as for specter the required investment in boon duration is WAAAY TOO HIGH for a class that has no access to the additional boon duration traits that other support classes have

[Ekko.9854]

Why did they even nerf (quickness) deadeye this hard 😮 I mean from the moment you had to do mechanics or when there are multiple targets the damage dropped insanely anyway ... They really just look at the golem dps don't they ... (I mean sure it did massive numbers, but so does everything else??)

I actually enjoyed playing it a lot now as I found a new quickness provider because they gutted herald playstyle for me. Guess I'll have to find another class again ... 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Ekko.9854

[Asra.8746]

Nah, you can still dps fine. It needed a nerf, but so did everything else - JUST nerfing DE itself is stupid.

It's just absurd to me that the logic of aoe specs, with more survivability and utility, being able to do more dps than a single target spec (literally single target cause of mark) makes sense to the 🤡 team.

[TheThief.8475]

About to unistall

I can't bother playing waiting next year until they understand how to balance class based on how much utility/ cleave/ ranged dps they have.

I don't see any of those being taken into consideration in this patch, I can't believe they are so clueless

Edited July 18, 2023 by TheThief.8475
Adding reasons

[Rezok.2709]

9 minutes ago, Asra.8746 said:

Nah, you can still dps fine. It needed a nerf, but so did everything else - JUST nerfing DE itself is stupid.

It's just absurd to me that the logic of aoe specs, with more survivability and utility, being able to do more dps than a single target spec (literally single target cause of mark) makes sense to the 🤡 team.

Honestly, this is the problem. I am fine with DE losing mobility to deal damage, I'm fine with DE being a glass cannon, I can even get behind all their weird restrictions like having to be behind the target. And being single target rather than AoE like everyone else is fine, it's the sniper fantasy after all. The fact that our main damage ability doesn't even pierce, making a random add completely ruin your day is okay - because when we hit out target, we deal massive damage. Or, well... We are supposed to, at least.

DE should absolutely be among the best at single target damage. If other professions can do more damage, as AoE, while generally keeping more survivability and / or group support - then you know something is wrong.

[TheThief.8475]

29 minutes ago, Asra.8746 said:

...and they gutted dps DE again back to lower dps than AoE specs...nice! 🤡

Forgot to add that while they heavily nerfed dps DE, dps SPC got a nice buff, especially for solo gameplay.

Classic Anet:

• Prev patch 3 steps forward in the right direction
• This patch 5 steps backward

[Nomad.4301]

Well here they are, and I have to say I'm quite disappointed at some of the Deadeye changes (and specter), Shadow Flare; DE's only AoE skill, now does a whopping 680~ base damage which is less than 1 rifle AA (about 760-880), If this skill was doing too much AoE damage, why not just nerf it in PvP? Isn't that literally the point of SKILL SPLITTING??

Also the OitC change makes no sense, it was already nerfed by 290% (lol) in PvP/WvW and a 10% damage buff in PvE amounts to basically nothing on a skill that has no damage scaling to begin with, it's literally been brought back to where it started..

As for the other nerfs, if the intent was to reduce the damage of  Quickness DE, why does the rest of the class have to be gutted to bring that down? This is the laziest way to balance.. damage was the ONLY thing DE brings to the table outside of the "steal time" build, and it's finicky and annoying to play, so much so that you never see anyone playing it outside of WvW roaming or open world, these nerfs will quite possibly make it worse off then it was before the last patch.

As for the specter changes, also really disappointed in those. For one, the *buff* to shadow sap does basically nothing to improve protection uptime, because of the 50% ally reduction and the fact that you can barely get 70% boon duration in FULL BD gear on a specter means that you get about 3 seconds of protection per cast on the other 4 group members, in other words you're STILL burning all your initiative to apply maybe 10 seconds of protection? Bear in mind a DPS rev can maintain party wide protection by just pressing 1 button and standing still for 6 seconds.

Which brings me to the nerf to shadestep, as I mentioned thief has limited ways to increase Boon duration, you can get about 67% in full healing gear with the sigil only 57% without it, as opposed to the 80-100% you can get on most other supports in similar gear, yes you can still maintain alacrity on your sub with this nerf in FULL healing gear, but you need to spend significantly more time in the very subpar shroud to achieve this now, before you could spend 15 seconds in shroud at the start of an encounter and get 29s alacrity which gives you a nice buffer to focus on actually healing or applying other boons which you can't really do in shroud since shroud sucks, now you get about 16s from that, which means you you need to spend significantly more time NOT HEALING just to maintain alac.

I get that this was suppose to make alac specter use more than just vipers gear, but this really also hampers heal specter, also wasn't the point in the Strength of Shadows buff to make the opportunity cost for taking the alac trait higher, since now running alac over SoS is a significant DPS opportunity cost? Something good would be to add a trait (probably in SA) that gives concentration based on Healing power or just flat concentration or you could just make shroud not completely suck..

TL;DR, 80% of these changes are bad and basically undo most of what the previous patch was trying to achieve.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Nomad.4301

[lvis.3824]

So, what is left now ?
Just when it made fun again to play specter or deadeye again they must nerf us again. It's so frustrating everytime, makes me want to reroll or quite everytime :(

[ArcanistSeven.8720]

we actually get something good and they take it away. why am i even playing this class anymore. thief is my main and in the last year its the class i played the least because its just not fun to play anymore due to their balance and theres nothing to look forward to with weapon master. why waste my time when other classes can do things better and easier.

[Strutter.2719]

Another example of them stating their intentions (dealing with quickness deadeye having too much damage) and then the actual changes they make not reflecting that at all. 

These changes are not a nerf to quickness deadeye, they are a nerf to deadeye as a whole. In the name of tampering down an already situational dps level which won't really apply in real non golem combat, they have also nerfed a long-standing Dps build which was pretty decently balanced a d requires more skill than a good portion of equivalent builds.

I'd like to know why they thought these changes would achieve their stated aim, is it just guesswork at this point? Coupled with the previous patch aiming to reduce spamming for upkeep but achieving much more spamming for upkeep generally, I am concerned about how well the balance team understand their professions.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Strutter.2719

[Lunar.9652]

According to wingman last patch:

Quote

 

DE gained 161.2% popularity in raids

DE gained 211.2% popularity in fractals

DE gained 298.0% popularity in strike missions

 

I guess this patch it will be:

Quote

 

DE lost 261.2% popularity in raids

DE lost  311.2% popularity in fractals

DE lost 398.0% popularity in strike missions

 

1 step forward 2 steps backward.

[ArcanistSeven.8720]

2 minutes ago, GetFoxxed.9478 said:

Yeah typical "ignore the problem, walk away from it, pretend it doesnt exist". And what kitten is that supposed to achieve?

peace of mind, having fun but asra is right this is about bad thief balance not about your enjoyment of the game so for the purpose of the thread ill stop responding

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by ArcanistSeven.8720

[Ekko.9854]

47 minutes ago, lvis.3824 said:

So, what is left now ?
Just when it made fun again to play specter or deadeye again they must nerf us again. It's so frustrating everytime, makes me want to reroll or quite everytime 😞

'What is left now'; Lowkey underrated statement. Every time something kind of works and fits in decently, they just change the whole thing 360° to make it more clunky and worse. They really want all parties to consists of (h)am and q(h)fb only don't they 😛, because that's always what's left ... 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Ekko.9854

[ArcanistSeven.8720]

2 minutes ago, Ekko.9854 said:

'What is left now'; Lowkey underrated statement. Every time something kind of works and fits in decently, they just change the whole thing 360° to make it more clunky and worse. They really want all parties to consists of (h)am and q(h)fb only don't they 😛, because that's always what's left ... 

its shame because i was enjoying running heal alac scourge with quick DE

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hi Everyone,

Just a reminder to keep it civil. I've removed some posts.

Regards.

[Ralen.1986]

This update basically killed DE, especially quick DE. I understand it needed rebalancing but this just a lazy attempt at it. I dont see Power SB getting nerfed and it does opening 50k in raids. This is just sad news for thief mains.

[Ylthan.1693]

Well the only "uncivil" stuff i've seen today is from the balance team who simply destroyed de (he had a long life...about a month being playable)....

Honestly i don't even know why i keep playing thief last patch was like "ho yeah we gave you a candy sooner but just for the pleasure of ripping it off from your sorry hands and there's nothing you can do about it".

[dace.8019]

Woah woah woah I don't even play this particular meta of DE I just like it for occasional OW stuff and it's been hollowed out hard.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

How are the numbers for the Larcenous Torment lifesteal? Is there an ICD?

Edited July 18, 2023 by Za Shaloc.3908
Nevermind it's on Wiki

[Doggie.3184]

Welp, Deadeye was actually really fun while it lasted. Oh well. Literally the first time I enjoyed playing it since it's addition.

I enjoyed being able to do damage with a Shortbow or Pistol equipped but all the ranged DPS is gone again.

There's a big difference between nerfing/reducing effectiveness of something and completely removing an entire feature from existence... and they always go with the removal of features way, like all the Pistol traits they removed; forever ruining it. And ofc our single-target damage is gone again without compensation of giving us AoE.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Doggie.3184

[LyraOrpheo.8450]

The damage nerfs were a bit too heavy handed, at least Iron Sight didn't need it (it already has its built-in tradeoff). Having the actual Assassin archtype class do the highest damage in the game was a good thing thematically, giving it the highest damage as a band-aid to make up for the mechanical clunkyness (stealth reveal by allies blast, shut down by a single sec of blind/weakness, No Valid Path to Target, high reliance in M7 for rifle, etc) was not ideal but it made people pick up this class, without that I think it'll be back to just Deadeye mains who played it before the buffs. The fact this class has absolutely no cleave (Sword autos dont count) or utility was already a tradeoff in itself.

Even Quickness DE gives little utility aside from quickness (which really is "you get a seat at the team comp table") so high single target damage is all it really gets, well used to. Now its outdamaged by druid, catalyst, virtuoso, berseker, all which provide more than just damage.

Edited July 18, 2023 by LyraOrpheo.8450

[Jianyu.7065]

I played DE for 600 hours, and then played Ren for 200 hours. Then went back to DE recently only to remind myself how the only class made specifically for the rifle is so terrible with the rifle. 

That, and the versatility imbalance between Ren and DE is a joke. I have all these options on Ren, and then on DE its...well, it's nothing. It's a joke.

[Flobings.7251]

1 hour ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

How are the numbers for the Larcenous Torment lifesteal? Is there an ICD?

Not great, damage is (expectedly) not affected by might & with my 2 gear sets:

1010 power = 108 damage

2968 power = 114 damage

 

Seems there is no ICD. Every torment application on the scepter auto-attack was triggering it.

[itspomf.9523]

4 hours ago, Strutter.2719 said:

These changes are not a nerf to quickness deadeye, they are a nerf to deadeye as a whole. In the name of tampering down an already situational dps level which won't really apply in real non golem combat

Because despite promising us they were not going to use the golem as a basis for balancing, CMC and others, being raid-centric in their balance mentality, immediately presume 100% boon uptime of all boons ... ergo using the golem as a benchmark anyway.

It's quite hilarious -- or would be, if it weren't so pathetic.