Druid Is Fine After July 18th Patch - Shout Out To Druid Community

[Arrow Blade of El Elyon.9341]

I meant in WvW and sPvP.

And I meant the June 27th patch. 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Arrow Blade of El Elyon.9341

[Arrow Blade of El Elyon.9341]

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, Acheron.1580 said:

Let me just get this straight. You picked scenarios were the damage output is a constant thrum, thereby enabling you to enter CA regularly and pointed at it saying "see, it works now", but what about fights were the damage isn't constant? What about scenarios where your group is actively avoiding damage, or fights were there are dead damage spots? I'm asking what happens when you can't do constant heal throughput and suddenly you can't go into CA form often. This is a really biased test.

No, you guys are just being hecklers who haven't gone in to play any of this yourself, which is why you're asking me questions. And even though I try to answer them honestly, some of the people in here want to heckle so hard vs. these Druid changes, that they are injecting statements as if I were lying or trying put on ruse to make it look better than it actually is.

Why would I do that? Anyone who knows this community at all would know that I am like first & foremost patch heckler, especially when it comes to Ranger, my main class. For years I have been pointing out how Druid is completely dysfunctional and botched in so many modes for so many reasons. Why would I suddenly come in here on what everyone wants to say is a bad patch they are unhappy with, and suddenly as a Ranger main who wants the best for my class, suddenly begin pretending that a bad patch was good? Why would I do that? Well maybe if people actually went in and played the new build before commenting, they would realize that as the first & foremost patch heckler especially when it comes to things Ranger, I am telling you the truth that these new builds are good.

Furthermore, when the damage is not constant, you can blow a CA Kit full bottom out on energy to prime like 30+ seconds of Alacrity in one go. The build works just fine my dude. You guys need to get over it. Go play it and get some experience on it instead of asking questions, having them answered, and then looking for reasons to not believe it.

I am a HUGE critic of decisions Arenanet makes, but I've got to stand up for this one. This patch did good for Druid in pve.

1 hour ago, Beddo.1907 said:

Or I can play mechanist and have 100% uptime as long as we stack up within 20s.

The Druid can stack 30+ seconds, or even 60s with a mistlock. The reason why I did not do that in 99CM is because it resets in 99CM when you enter the boss platform.

Also, Mechanist Alac off the Jade Bot AI is most certainly more unreliable positioning on demand than a Druid that can actually aim at ranged with its Alac casts.

But no matter what I say here you're going to look for reasons to argue. It's w/e man.

1 hour ago, Beddo.1907 said:

(You still need to spam them, except it's just easier.)

This is true, the spirits were easier. I never argued that this new method with the patching in any way felt as good as or better than the old method. In fact, I've stated several times on stream now that I definitely prefer the old method because it felt cleaner and more precise. The new method feels almost worse than running an Ele between 4 different attunements. But it is true though, once you get used to it, it's stronger and heals a lot more than the old builds, and on a perma cycle as well.

1 hour ago, Acheron.1580 said:

Ideally you can set up to have enough prot where you maybe don't need to spam stone to make use of that sweet sweet aegis but in general yea still a spam fest, they just can't die on you now.

Yeah it's a bit too sweaty for most players. The Druid representation rates will plummet due to it. Now it's one of those classes/builds that really is only realistic to play for the long time enthusiasts who are willing to put some real time & effort into it.

1 hour ago, Arrow Blade of El Elyon.9341 said:

Condi Druid, on the other hand, is ultimately a weaker condi Druid post patch

In competitive, the loss of Ancient Seeds hurt Condi Druid variants. The new Eclipse in its place is not adequate for competitive because it is highly unrealistic to actually land any of those skills on opponents while channeling and somehow have them not death burst you while you try do it.

In pve on the other hand, Condi Druid is now ridiculously strong. It has top bench potential, LOADS of hard & soft CC, and even brings supplemental healing to help the core support in his job. I'd dare it's actually a bit OP. Even as a Ranger main I have to admit this for pve purposes.

1 hour ago, Acheron.1580 said:

Is it? I saw nothing in the balance patch that would cause that. I'm not saying you are wrong, Anet loves to just conveniently leave changes out with zero communication. What's different?

Ancient Seeds.

Druid in competitive has been being weighed & balanced around the use of Ancient Seeds ever since HoT. This single trait is responsible for keeping very aggressive builds away from the Druid so the Druid has time to reposition and/or actually deal DPS before something closes in and gets on top of it, such as a Willbender. Now with the lose of Ancient Seeds, it is much more difficult to kite very aggressive build structures, much more difficult to find intervals of time to land DPS cleanly without needing to trade blows with something like a Willbender, and in general it lost a lot of DPS when Ancient Seeds was taken out.

Eclipse and Grace Of The Land are not viable in competitive for every mentionable reason. So now what we have to do is use Lingering Light and try to hover more around team fights so we can heal others and actually benefit the reduced CD on CA Kit for greater sustain factors. Even DPS structures have to do this now without Ancient Seeds.

On the other hand, due to Lingering Light and its new functions in conjunction with new Spirit rework, Druid Support specs are actually viable now in pvp. If it weren't for Ele dominating every job role right now, Druid Support would definitely be a thing after this last patch.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Acheron.1580]

There are so many changes to druid that have pulled autonomy away from the player and made what I would have considered a pretty LI healing support into the sweatiest support in the game now that even if it "works" I have a hard time agreeing that it's been saved. Even before the use of spirits was a partial consideration to help generate CA when you were in fights with limited healing capability, which is now gone due to how the new spirits work. There will still be those concerns, but now it's also a concern for keeping alac up whereas before in dead zones you probably didn't need the emergency healing anyways so no big deal right? Again I feel like testing perfect conditions for generating CA is biased, whether you intended it to be or not.

I don't agree with praising the devs for doubling down on a terrible design idea. Alacrity tied to elemental overloads is not the same as alacrity tied to CA skills, which is not the same as alacrity for renegade, and the devs need to stop treating class mechanics as equal. The balance devs have demonstrated they don't understand the nuances between classes at all, and if they really want to stubbornly force the alac on CA playstyle then generating CA should be standardized instead of situational.

All of that aside still doesn't change the fact that they made the pet this weird extension that has even less consideration than you would have for any other spec and there's nothing inherently fun about watching nothing but cooldowns.

[Acheron.1580]

Because I think it's relevant:

44 minutes ago, Crowface.3287 said:

Overall, Alacrity generation is better, yes - but there are still scenarios where you're starved for CA form meter and hoping Alacrity won't fall off. Minister Li's charging attack in the KO strike is a perfect example.

Anet, I thought the goal was to make things less spammy and have less upkeep required for boons? For Alac Heal Druid it's the exact opposite.

[Crowface.3287]

1 hour ago, Acheron.1580 said:

Because I think it's relevant:

Oh hi there, thanks for checking out my post. 😃 I see this is a separate thread, but... I have a lot of thoughts on this topic.

For the original poster, Trevor:

Regarding Alac Heal Druid: I'm glad you feel it's working out. I would say it's better than it was before, no question about that. But that's not saying much, because it was putrid before.

As I said, there are still scenarios where we're starved for CA form meter.

When I heal a World Boss train with a giant 40+ person squad, I'm in heaven. Or meta events like Soo Won in Dragon's End, etc. Everyone is taking heaps of damage and it's fueling my CA bar to my heart's content.  I don't think anyone doubts Druid is a still a very strong open world healer.

But not all fights are made equally, the mechanics can be very different. Sometimes the squad/group doesn't actively take a lot of damage.

Mukluk also noted this, but Minister Li's charging attack in the KO strike is quite a long time to go without the party taking damage. He's standing there charging his dashing attack and everybody is beating on him, and no one is getting hurt. How are you building CA meter there? You're not.

So, then, you're going to say "well if you just cap on Alacrity for 30 seconds, it will keep the boon up till the bar fills up again" - I get it, but this is not a great solution.

Why are we dropping our biggest heals (and no one needs them yet) and sacrificing our party-wide revive ability, just to put out a boon that other classes can put out with minimum effort? Do you realize Alac Mechanist can literally auto-cast their mech skills with like 60% boon duration gear and keep pace with Druid's alacrity output, right? That's bad.

 

You know how silly it feels to start a fight and go nuts on the keyboard, spamming CA form abilities to get Alac going, and the group has barely taken a lick of damage yet? Then you're standing there looking silly, waiting for the CA bar to fill up again, and hoping/praying no big emergency happens while your strongest heal skills are unavailable.

The people in this thread aren't being rude, they're pointing out very real gaps which very much still exist. And Alacrity uptime with the pre-patch Druid used to be 90-100% easily, now we're hustling hard to get those numbers. I watched your videos and Alacrity did fall off in several instances.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Crowface.3287

[Acheron.1580]

5 minutes ago, Crowface.3287 said:

The people in this thread aren't being rude, they're pointing out very real gaps which very much still exist

This, very much this. If you are having fun then I'm very much happy for you, but what I'm trying to say is druid isn't saved unless they work in conditions that are unfavorable to them as much as they do in conditions that are a perfect ideal.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

4 hours ago, BatelGeuce.3591 said:

This is not how you get clout or viewers. It's a pathetic attempt.

Also people like you and Turtle make me wanna commit seppuku cause every time I thought I saw it all, someone worse pops up.

If I cared about viewers or sponsorship or donations or subs, I would actually set my twitch up for it instead of leaving it barebones. I'd also incorporate view bots like everyone else does, and join into some kind of partnership to help each other's streams look more active, like everyone else does.

Not everyone is trying to make money my dude. Some people just like participating in community.

~ Cheers. 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

32 minutes ago, Crowface.3287 said:

But not all fights are made equally, the mechanics can be very different. Sometimes the squad/group doesn't actively take a lot of damage.

Mukluk also noted this, but Minister Li's charging attack in the KO strike is quite a long time to go without the party taking damage. He's standing there charging his dashing attack and everybody is beating on him, and no one is getting hurt. How are you building CA meter there? You're not.

This is when you pop CA Kit and bottom it out with prebuffs. You can stack like 30+ seconds this way, and 60+ seconds with a mistlock. You need to make waiting moments work for you rather than against you. Just save the CA Kit use when you know the mechanic is about to happen. This will allow a prebuffer point and give you some lenience when normal mechanics pick back up.

As far as other fights go, I'm just not having problems maintaining 90% alacrity uptimes after the recent patch, even in worst case scenarios with boss fights where people have to split for mechanics. In most situations now after the patch, it's easy to over-clock the alacrity uptime to where everyone always has like 20-30 seconds of alacrity.

39 minutes ago, Crowface.3287 said:

I get it, but this is not a great solution.

It may not be a great solution but it is the solution. This is just how it is now.

Too many people are coming in here and misreading what the purpose of this thread was. I've mentioned several times now that the mechanics were smoother before. It's overly sweaty and plays like keyboard piano Ele attunement style now. I never stated: "THIS IS A GLORIOUS MASSIVE IMPROVEMENT". All I said was: "Druid is saved and it's actually quite strong now, despite it feeling worse to play." As in, the build works again after the patch, it feels kind of sweaty and bad to play, but it is healing like double or triple than what it ever did before, which is true.

I'm not saying you're one of the ones doing that, but some of these guys are coming in here like they're looking for arguments. They need to argue with Arenanet, not me. I came in here simply to inform this pissed off Druid community that the build is still playable and what they need to do to harness that.

[Mauti.3520]

I definitely want to give it a shot in Fractal CMs+T4 - It wasn't half bad last summer, probably it's pretty cracked RN with better boons, no dying spirits, extra aegis, unconditional stab eca.

[Acheron.1580]

47 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

You can stack like 30+ seconds this way, and 60+ seconds with a mistlock.

Ignoring the point where you are talking about 60+ seconds of alac because I assume you mean look at all the alac I can provide, not that you think alac durations go over 30 seconds, but what about any fight where you aren't allowed to prebuff? Like CM sunqua, or raids, or strikes? This is one of those moments again where we are saying perfect conditions aren't a great benchmark for how well the class is performing.

[Acheron.1580]

54 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I never stated: "THIS IS A GLORIOUS MASSIVE IMPROVEMENT". All I said was: "Druid is saved and it's actually quite strong now, despite it feeling worse to play."

On 7/18/2023 at 1:26 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Druid is fine after July 18th patch. Stop complaining about it

I feel like if people don't explain WHY things are busted (and they are busted), the devs who clearly don't have a clue are just going to assume everything is fine. You are saying it's an improvement, and it's not quite where it should be, but hey it's good enough so nobody complain anymore. It was never just about the numbers, it was the entire playstyle, and no it isn't fine.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Acheron.1580

[Drag You Down.2615]

You really need to get a more comprehensive testing for Druid to come up with the statement that it is "saved". From what I tested yesterday, alac Druid does NOT work in all IBS, some EoD strikes. I am waiting for some ppl to test it on raids.

At least for me, I don't allow myself to have a blank space with no boon in the fight.

I was thinking this is like Tempest, but I was wrong, this is more like Chrono. The difference is that the Chrono just need to find a target to attack, and we need to find a target to heal. I really don't know how to get into CA when the damage is not consistent, but just some extremely high burst damage with a long interval. 

The situation in the video you posted is probably the most ideal situation because the damage is so consistent and so regular, but even though you failed to keep the alac consistently despite Chrono's self alac.

One more thing, why should I use this sweaty inconvenient thing when I can generate alac with Renegade 1 button, Mech 4 buttons, Specter enter shroud and 11111, even the Scourge now can generate 30 sec alac with just 3 buttons. Can anyone tell me what Druid can do better than them with that amount of effort it requires. 

I tested Scourge yesterday, despite how it is similar to Mech now and how people hate it, it is probably the easiest alac heal currently. It is also busy, but all the effort can be useful, like perma barrier, which helps some squishy dps from being one shot. 

I just wanna say I play Druid not for exercising my hand muscles. 

[Celeste.9135]

18 minutes ago, Acheron.1580 said:

It was never just about the numbers, it was the entire playstyle, and no it isn't fine.

This. A million times. The numbers and efficacy of a class that has been made unfun to play are irrelevant to most people. I’ve mained Druid among other classes since HOT and this ultimately has been the worst I’ve ever felt playing it.  If I wanted to play something that felt like HAT then I’d be maining Tempest and not Druid. Personally I’d much rather shout out to the Druid community advocating for the class to be more enjoyable to play rather than those willing to accept this… lesser version just because it is technically playable.

[Drag You Down.2615]

Oh, and there's more, I won't talk about my Mech, because it has 80% boon duration. Just say Scourge and Specter and Renegade, all of them can achieve perma alac with 60% boon duration. Even the specter after the nerf. My Scourge was even using 45% boon duration, it can do perma alac easily. 

My Druid on the other hand, has 65% boon duration, higher than my specter and it was not fine. 

Mech's inconsistency is bot ai, but it can be adjusted with buttons manually. But I cannot generate CA energy manually if no target to heal.

The worst thing is that if I just used my CA and the very next second, boss is doing some crazy damage, what should I use to heal??? Do you expect me to use staff to heal everyone? CA has a minimum cooldown for 8 seconds with alac. Probably everyone has already died and revived and start a new attempt in 8 seconds.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Drag You Down.2615

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Let me quote myself, again:

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

It may not be a great solution but it is the solution. This is just how it is now.

Too many people are coming in here and misreading what the purpose of this thread was. I've mentioned several times now that the mechanics were smoother before. It's overly sweaty and plays like keyboard piano Ele attunement style now. I never stated: "THIS IS A GLORIOUS MASSIVE IMPROVEMENT". All I said was: "Druid is saved and it's actually quite strong now, despite it feeling worse to play." As in, the build works again after the patch, it feels kind of sweaty and bad to play, but it is healing like double or triple than what it ever did before, which is true.

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Drag You Down.2615]

Then I don't think you can say it is "saved", be careful about your wording. Druid playing style is still in the hell and using the word saved may give people an illusion that it is fine now. It is just not fine, it is a design failure technically just the number change make it theoretically possible to use.

I understand what you mean, it is usable but just not great. Alac mirage and alac willbender have something to say about this... 

Alac willbender's alac generation is much better now, even a bit too much for me tbh, just hope they can improve Druid from a design perspective, not only adjust its number. 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

49 minutes ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

Then I don't think you can say it is "saved", be careful about your wording. Druid playing style is still in the hell and using the word saved may give people an illusion that it is fine now. It is just not fine, it is a design failure technically just the number change make it theoretically possible to use.

I understand what you mean, it is usable but just not great. Alac mirage and alac willbender have something to say about this... 

Alac willbender's alac generation is much better now, even a bit too much for me tbh, just hope they can improve Druid from a design perspective, not only adjust its number. 

Honestly if it were up to me, I'd put Alacrity back on the spirits, keep the new spirit mechanic & trait change, and make sure the Alacrity occurs on the slam. This way we could use 3x spirits with the new trait for double slams, and if the base Alacrity on the slams were around 3 seconds, this would go to 6s per slam with conc/boon duration. With double slams on each spirit it would be like 12s of Alacrity on each spirit. This would be enough to moderate the use of 3x spirits between 20 and 30 second CDs, to juggle a 36s Alacrity cycle. And the mechanics would feel smooth and good again, concerning CA kit use.

This would be awesome because they could then change Ancestral Grace back into a Might stack or potentially something new. You could also still choose Lingering Light or even Eclipse so the Druid has some actual DPS to contribute.

Buuuut it isn't up to me, so we've got to work with what we have.

This thread was simply to point out how to do that, and that Druid isn't dead in the water like everyone is claiming.

I'd also like to point out that my initial OP post and video link was not only about Heal Alac, but also Condi DPS in pve, as well as pvp and wvw Druid builds. You guys are taking the statement "Druid is saved" in only a pve Heal Alac context, but that one build structure was only 1/4th of what my statement was referencing.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, Acheron.1580 said:

You are saying it's an improvement, and it's not quite where it should be, but hey it's good enough so nobody complain anymore. It was never just about the numbers, it was the entire playstyle, and no it isn't fine.

1. I said it was a numerical improvement in terms of heal factor and actually ultimately alacrity duration stack, but that it was largely a mechanical mess and in no way feels as smooth or accurate as previous implementations of Heal Alac Druid.
2. I never said anything about how people shouldn't be complaining. What I did, was I seen how upset the Druid was community was, and how everyone believed that the build was dead and no longer viable or just too messy to play, so I came in to give a heads up with honest sincere feedback, that it isn't dead, and it just takes getting used to. You guys are just overly dramatic right now, to the point that you're putting words into my mouth and taking all of my statements out of context.
3. I've stated like 6x in this thread now, that I am not happy with the mechanical feel and play dynamic of these new build structures.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Drag You Down.2615]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I'd also like to point out that my initial OP post and video link was not only about Heal Alac, but also Condi DPS in pve, as well as pvp and wvw Druid builds. You guys are taking the statement "Druid is saved" in only a pve Heal Alac context, but that one build structure was only 1/4th of what my statement was referencing.

Ye, I've seen some strong condi dps Druid in pve.

But Druid's original role, alac heal, is just too limited to use in pve currently, and I believe that most people, like me, had build druid towards this direction. In our pve ppl's mind, Druid is the most traditional healer. Most people have never thought it role will turn to a dps one day. So I hope you can understand this part, since Druid as an alac healer is at the very bottom of the tier list right now, compare to other alac heals.

I guess my druid will be a wvw healer for a long time, since lingering light is great at this moment.

[Drag You Down.2615]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Honestly if it were up to me, I'd put Alacrity back on the spirits, keep the new spirit mechanic & trait change, and make sure the Alacrity occurs on the slam. This way we could use 3x spirits with the new trait for double slams, and if the base Alacrity on the slams were around 3 seconds, this would go to 6s per slam with conc/boon duration. With double slams on each spirit it would be like 12s of Alacrity on each spirit. This would be enough to moderate the use of 3x spirits between 20 and 30 second CDs, to juggle a 36s Alacrity cycle. And the mechanics would feel smooth and good again, concerning CA kit use.

They said they want alac to be exclusively for Druid, that's why, and they don't want to tie those boons to a specific skill type.

But I mean, look at Firebrand, look at its mantra of potence. 😆

I think a boon can come from a combination of sources, just tearing it apart. They can add alac to Celestial Shadow a bit, give alac when you exit the CA, they can then add a new trait to give alac in some conditions, like: when your CA energy is becoming full, you pulse alac for 4 times with an interval of 1 secs and base duration of 3 seconds, this can only be triggered again when the next time your CA energy is charged; or just give a Glyph some alac, and make it only provide alac when outside of CA.

But I mean, more random and general those triggering or application condition is, more fun we will have. Like what I posted in another post, if you don't want to be sweaty, but want some challenges, it can be more creative or unique.

Below are the ideas I wrote in another post:

For grace of the land, if we want to emphasize the theme of land, we can come up with the idea of positioning. Like:

If there is a pet or summon is within 240 of you, you will pulse 1.5 secs alac around you with radius of 600 every 2 secs. Summon includes ranger spirits, renegade spirits, engi turrets etc.

Or if you want to emphasize "grace" it can be sth like:

applying regeneration, vigor, protection, or resistance on an ally above 80% health will also grant 4 secs alac, this can only be triggered once per 4 secs per target.

[WhoWantsAHug.3186]

Ranger in general feels A/S tier. Untamed, Druid, Soulbeast are all in a fantastic state. 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

20 minutes ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

Ranger in general feels A/S tier. Untamed, Druid, Soulbeast are all in a fantastic state. 

Despite what people in this thread are saying in their discontent, I would agree with this.

[Box of Ants.5609]

On 7/19/2023 at 8:40 PM, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

Ranger in general feels A/S tier. Untamed, Druid, Soulbeast are all in a fantastic state. 

Agreed.

I honestly can't remember the last time we had so many viable build options at the same time. I think this is the best the Ranger has been in a while.

Edit: I can't believe I'm still getting fresh reactions on this post from two months ago. Sorry y'all are "confused," but, like, just go check Snowcrows or something. Look at how many viable builds we have compared to other professions. Ranger is doing great right now.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Box of Ants.5609

[Nephalem.8921]

10 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Same thoughts in a nutshell , i use my CA only for healing , might was done for me trough warhorn 5 + rapid fire and frost spirit , i didn't care much about CA for might generation , now i have to pull my CA at the start of a fight and use all my healing skills just to pulse alacrity while the group is full hp , thats stupid ! and to generate might i have to switch my pets constantly off cd .... great gameplay , i agree spirits were boring to play but at least you could spam 3-4 of them , get alacrity up to a 25-30 sec and care about the healing.

Best example would be OLC CM were damage come into huge spikes sometimes , i used my CA on pull and push mechanic , while also being able to heal people afar from the group , now i'll have to use my CA to get alacrity , and in scenarios were your group avoid any damage your CA is a burden to load up , for me it's a freaking bad idea to have alacrity there , but anet was focused on "get all quickness and alacrity out of utility skills" , think they forgot Firebrand , oops ... plz don't ruin FB , i already see quickness coming with tomes skills ... yuuukkkk.

This only worked for a couple month. For the majority of druids existence CA was needed for boons or special effects like Gotl.

Classic case of healer mains complaining about having to press buttons or thought being involved. Damage in pve is not random. You can and should anticipate it. To this day healer mains get surprised by vg greens. A good healer can soloheal through it without downs. Pugs need 2-3 pughealers for that.

You are not supposed to react and heal in pve. Anticipate and heal! Druid has some emergency heals when somebody forgot to move out of red but most of the dmg can be anticipated and you could just plan your CA phases around that.

Healer is by far the easiest role in mmos. No reason to make it even simpler. Healers should get punished for mindlessly spaming their stuff. Always having strong on demand heals is just op if no planning is involved. Healers in this game have no mana. Cooldowns are the only resource they have. But managing that 1 resource is too much apparently.