I just realised... (yet another relics rant)

[Geralt.7519]

6 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

In terms FF14 it hangs around 1/3 of the player base, which we can safely assume it almost account all of its sustained playerbase (those who kept playing after story). In general casual players are less detered by level/gearscore requirement in instanced contents compared to player skill.

1/3 = 33%, high compared to other MMOs but still a minority, it's the other 66% that are the casuals (non-raiders).

 

4 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Let me correct you here: casual players prefer vertical progression.

Vertical progression makes sense for casual players only if it allows them to overgear content (like in WoW for example), it doesn't work in GW2.

[Cuks.8241]

21 minutes ago, Geralt.7519 said:

Vertical progression makes sense for casual players only if it allows them to overgear content (like in WoW for example)

Isnt that like a feature of any vertical progression system? At some point you overgear content. Unless you have unlimited content scaling but I dont know a game like that (maybe specific modes within some games, but not in general). 

[KawsMeCal.5923]

On 7/22/2023 at 6:24 AM, Omega.6801 said:

Hi there,

I just realised thatin the blogpost, ANet speaks of Legendary Relic-S, as in mulltiple legendaries. I hope this doesn't mean that there will be multiple different legendary relics or if it does, I hope these different legenary relics will not be functionally different, i.e. having different options to chose from. Because this is not what "legendary" means in this game.
Then again, "legendary" used to mean "best in slot" and "not going to be devalued" and that's out of the window at this point, so I wouldn't put it beyond Nu-ANet.

Am I reading too much into it?

You have a legendary relic...

I have a legendary relic...

We have legendary relic-S

[Geralt.7519]

12 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Isnt that like a feature of any vertical progression system? At some point you overgear content. Unless you have unlimited content scaling but I dont know a game like that (maybe specific modes within some games, but not in general). 

It depends on the game, if they implement level scaling or not and how scaling is implemented, they're not all the same.

In games that implement level scaling and scale *you* down to zone levels (like SWTOR for example), vertical progression is basically useless because you never overgear content. If GW2 hypothetically raised the level cap and introduced vertical progression, it would be useless because GW2 is another game that scales *you* down.

WoW scales *mobs* up to your level but only up to a certain cap, specific per xpac, you go past the cap and overgear everything (even raids), that's real vertical progression, like games that don't implement automatic scaling at all.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Geralt.7519

[pengefinchess.8452]

On 7/22/2023 at 1:23 PM, Agathon.6578 said:

Woof! Woof!

Oh, fellow Guild Wars enthusiast, I can feel your frustration, and I woof agree! When it comes to official statements, clarity is a must, and it's paw-sitively fair to ask for further details. Ruby might be the key to unlock those answers we so eagerly seek!

Bark, I get it, it's tough to give them the benefit of the doubt when uncertainties arise. We might be sniffing beyond that phase, but let's not lose hope! I paw-lieve that if we continue voicing our concerns constructively, the developers may listen.

Yet, you're right, barks can only go so far if it doesn't affect their treats... err, I mean, the company's bottom line. That's why having solid information is paw-tastic! More details mean less guesswork, and we can make informed decisions about our adventures in Tyria.

So, let's keep our tails wagging with hope for further details, and together, we'll strive for a Guild Wars world that's even more enchanting and delightful!

Arffully yours,
the Talking Dog Who Loves Guild Wars

Wth?

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, pengefinchess.8452 said:

Wth?

Someone likes Chat GPT posting.

[Astralporing.1957]

15 hours ago, Geralt.7519 said:

Vertical progression makes sense for casual players only if it allows them to overgear content (like in WoW for example), it doesn't work in GW2.

Not just that. In order for it to work it must also fulfill one more consideration - keeping up must not require a lot of effort, resources and time. In FF XIV for example most casuals do not follow up the usual progression - they start to peel off very fast, and manage to catch up only just before the next expansion cycle, when the final set of Poetics gear gets released. And sometimes not even that - it's not uncommon to see people on new expansion release to enter first story dungeon in gear that is a random collection of pieces from the story dungeons of previous expansion cycle (so, basically, in what had dropped for them when they were getting through the story, with next to no piece obtained from additional gear farming).

Casuals may like to obtain gear that allows them to overgear content, but tend to heavily dislike having to farm for that gear. And in vertical progression systems, you can't really have one without the other, because it's the grind, not better stats, that is the primary purpose of said systems.

[Geralt.7519]

4 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Not just that. In order for it to work it must also fulfill one more consideration - keeping up must not require a lot of effort, resources and time.

Casuals may like to obtain gear that allows them to overgear content, but tend to heavily dislike having to farm for that gear.

You're right, those points are important too.

  

4 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

 And in vertical progression systems, you can't really have one without the other, because it's the grind, not better stats, that is the primary purpose of said systems.

Not necessarily. I never played FF but I play a lot of WoW, the gear grind in WoW exists for top endgame, if you don't play that type of content (casuals usually don't) you don't need to grind, the game literally throws at you all the gear you need for casual content, you don't even have to think about it.

Casuals grind cosmetics/collectibles in WoW, that's actually a big part of the game for many players (even non-casuals).

[Astralporing.1957]

21 minutes ago, Geralt.7519 said:

Not necessarily. I never played FF but I play a lot of WoW, the gear grind in WoW exists for top endgame, if you don't play that type of content (casuals usually don't) you don't need to grind, the game literally throws at you all the gear you need for casual content, you don't even have to think about it.

Casuals grind cosmetics/collectibles in WoW, that's actually a big part of the game for many players (even non-casuals).

No, i mean since the primary purpose of vertical progression is to keep players engaged by "virtue" of constantly invalidating their gear, a vertical progression without grind is pointless from the developer's point of view. Remove the grind, and you basically end up with having to continuously create new gear and content to replace what you keep obsoleting, for no gain at all.

The only reason why developers even manage to keep casuals in vertical progression games is by allowing them to flat out skip 90% of it. And the only reason why developers keep vertical progression systems in their games is because they are not targeting that part of the game population (even though it is the majority). And, of course, it is a cheap replacement for content (although this is balanced, as i said, by most of the content you make ending up to not be relevant in the longer term, which means you need to indroduce more of it every cycle).

[Vilin.8056]

On 7/26/2023 at 10:00 PM, Shuzuru.3651 said:

I'm giving you the fact of the nuance of casual vs the whole playerbase

But I do disagree that casual prefer vertical progression. 

If the logic there is : Casual want easier content, so powercreep, so vertical progression. 

Then I reply that no, because casuals don't want to grind, so yeah casuals want easier content, but by the means of either nerfs or passive powercreep than doesn't require grind.

About the relics, like I said, there is both, but I do agree that the legendary compensation is more prevalent on the topic, for the sake of horizontal progression. 

And about jadebot, there were a bunch of complaints, actually, maybe not as much as relics or ascended gear, but they were there. 

The casual playerbase consists a very diversed veriaty of preferences, I'm not saying that everyone will like the grinding, but in either side of the coin, they prefer this approach over the skill requirement the current horizontal progression system introduces.

Then moving onto the playerbase who do like the grind, if it isn't obvious enough, grinding gold to acquire a legendary remain the most popular activity among casual players who log in on a daily basis.

The mild magnitude of pushbacks over Jade Bot's vertical approach comparing to 2013 is a proof over the shift of tones in the community.

23 hours ago, Reztek.7805 said:

Random players join the game, kill their brain cells by doing farmruns all-day, cry for the lack of "endgame" and then leave for the next hyped MMO. 😉 And in most other MMOs casual players probably never reach the endgame because they can't stand the grind or are bored by playing on deserted maps.

Both types of players are considered casual in this game as neither are investing in its horizontal progression.

22 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I put it to you that once a player has a single meta build in full Ascended, pursuing legendary equipment is horizontal, not vertical, progression. Legendaries do not have more stats than ascended, but being able to change those stats freely opens up options.

Wrong, by locking himself in geargrinding with one build, the said player are prioritizing vertical progression before horizontal progression. Legendaries are QoL, but never a necessity. Furthermore, this is a game that reward free( or at a fractional cost) ascended gears for players who participates instanced contents at moderate difficulty, the options are already widely available for those who would step above the skill requirement, but remain avoided by the casual playerbase.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Vilin.8056

[Vilin.8056]

21 hours ago, Geralt.7519 said:

1/3 = 33%, high compared to other MMOs but still a minority, it's the other 66% that are the casuals (non-raiders).

Vertical progression makes sense for casual players only if it allows them to overgear content (like in WoW for example), it doesn't work in GW2.

If 33% is a minority to you, then the majority are those who possess an account but no longer active. Take note that in GW2, even without a subscription fee requirement, only less than 25% of the total playerbase ever reached 2500 AP for the past 11 years, you can bet less than half of that still log in least 1 day per week. In that sense, a 33% means it almost covers the whole playerbase that's active.

Also keep in mind that this game do let us gradually over-spec older content with each updates, we may not over gear challenging contents yet, but it has becoming a trend for developers to add in extra gears to overpower our characters than originally intended.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Vilin.8056

[Astralporing.1957]

56 minutes ago, Vilin.8056 said:

If 33% is a minority to you, then the majority are those who possess an account but no longer active.

Yes. Those that finish the expansion's story, and lapse the sub, just to resub and catch up with the story from patches shortly before next expansion release. This way skipping 90% of the gear grind. Those are the casual players. The very ones you say like vertical progression.

Your view of playerbase seems to be heavily skewed towards the circle with similar preferences to you. This has been clear already when you started claiming most casuals run in ascended (and actively gear up for content).

[Vilin.8056]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes. Those that finish the expansion's story, and lapse the sub, just to resub and catch up with the story from patches shortly before next expansion release. This way skipping 90% of the gear grind. Those are the casual players. The very ones you say like vertical progression.

Your view of playerbase seems to be heavily skewed towards the circle with similar preferences to you. This has been clear already when you started claiming most casuals run in ascended (and actively gear up for content).

If it hasn't been obvious enough to you, the game's new player experience leans heavily towards the vertical, which included core Tyria leveling, followed by the hero points to grow elite spec and mastery level system with each expansion. Horizontal progression only becomes available when the base vertical were fulfilled, and players quit right at this point is just a proof of that they are rather avoiding horizontal progression.

Nor did I claim that the majority of casual players run ascended, but it's even more absurd that you claim that most don't. These elements contributes the majority of the game's economy, which centers what casual players who do log in frequently do as a long term goal.

If anything, I'm not the one misleading the game's design philosophy and the playerbase as an excuse out of convenience just to accuse developers here, you are.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Vilin.8056

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

If it hasn't been obvious enough to you, the game's new player experience leans heavily towards the vertical, which included core Tyria leveling, followed by the hero points to grow elite spec and mastery level system with each expansion. Horizontal progression only becomes available when the base vertical were fulfilled, and players quit right at this point is just a proof of that they are rather avoiding horizontal progression.

Whether it's due to vertical progression or some different issues, but most new players actually leave long before getting through leveling, elite spec unlocking and mastery grind. From what we've heard, a significant number leaves within first weeks, even before hitting level cap.

Notice also, that those who stay, do that after meeting horizontal progression. Which by your reasoning should mean that the current playerbase does like it.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[Cuks.8241]

Casual is a very broad term and doesn't really say much (are we talking about casual in time spent on games or casual in the investment to be the best, to win). There are a lot of players that spend a lot of time on a game (especially mmorpgs) but never touch competitive or current raids and don't min max. And they grind a lot. They grind for mounts, for skins, they fish... And grinding for stuff is their preferred game loop.

On the other hand you have more competitive players that are only there for the latest raid and once its on farm, they move to another game. Or they play the competitive scene until its actually competitive and once a new game comes out, that is The current competitive game, they move on. When I was still actually playing games competitively my clan and a lot of other clans did exactly that. We started a fresh game, played it until it was "relevant" and moved on as soon as something more relevant came out. We would never care for anything besides being high on leader boards.

[Vilin.8056]

4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Whether it's due to vertical progression or some different issues, but most new players actually leave long before getting through leveling, elite spec unlocking and mastery grind. From what we've heard, a significant number leaves within first weeks, even before hitting level cap.

Exactly, you don't know which issue is it, therefore this point you brought is hardly a proof on either side of the debate.

19 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Notice also, that those who stay, do that after meeting horizontal progression. Which by your reasoning should mean that the current playerbase does like it.

You assumed wrong.

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Exactly, you don't know which issue is it, therefore this point you brought is hardly a proof on either side of the debate.

I don't know which issue it is, but if they quit before hitting horizontal progression point, then it could hardly be the reason, right?

2 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

You assumed wrong.

Well, i used your reasoning, so it means you assumed wrong as well.

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

On the other hand you have more competitive players that are only there for the latest raid and once its on farm, they move to another game. Or they play the competitive scene until its actually competitive and once a new game comes out, that is The current competitive game, they move on. When I was still actually playing games competitively my clan and a lot of other clans did exactly that. We started a fresh game, played it until it was "relevant" and moved on as soon as something more relevant came out. We would never care for anything besides being high on leader boards.

There's a term for this type of players. In online gaming circles they were long known as "content locust".

[Kulvar.1239]

On 7/22/2023 at 12:24 PM, Omega.6801 said:

Hi there,

I just realised thatin the blogpost, ANet speaks of Legendary Relic-S, as in mulltiple legendaries. I hope this doesn't mean that there will be multiple different legendary relics or if it does, I hope these different legenary relics will not be functionally different, i.e. having different options to chose from. Because this is not what "legendary" means in this game.
Then again, "legendary" used to mean "best in slot" and "not going to be devalued" and that's out of the window at this point, so I wouldn't put it beyond Nu-ANet.

Am I reading too much into it?

Plot twist, there is a separate underwater relic so you need 2 legendary relics. /j

[Cuks.8241]

8 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

There's a term for this type of players. In online gaming circles they were long known as "content locust".

You make it sound like staying loyal to a computer game is somehow a positive personal trait. Of course competitive players will go where the competition is. 

[Astralporing.1957]

4 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

You make it sound like staying loyal to a computer game is somehow a positive personal trait. Of course competitive players will go where the competition is. 

You should read the description of that player group i responded to a bit more in detail. It's clear those players weren't described as being in this for competition, but rather for "freshness". That's what content locust are - always in search of something new. Descending on any new game, devouring content as fast as possible, then flying away in search of a new pasture to repeat the process once again.

One of the key rules of game design for any game designed with long term playability in mind is to never bother with considering the Locust or adjusting the design with them in mind. Because they will leave anyway, no matter what you do.