GW2 Sales/Revenue/Earnings Report 1Q-2023

[wolfof.1842]

right now earnings are good but how will mini-expansions sell much in future?

PoF reach many people because of mounts, but how they advertise expansion without big new feature?

GW2 story not really famous like ffxiv,.. I think

[Izzy.2951]

35 minutes ago, wolfof.1842 said:

right now earnings are good but how will mini-expansions sell much in future?

PoF reach many people because of mounts, but how they advertise expansion without big new feature?

GW2 story not really famous like ffxiv,.. I think

Wait to see Q2 2023 Earnings. Cos population has gone down like hell since end of 2022, and mostly maintained with gw2 china increasing earnings.

[Gravitron.7982]

2 hours ago, Izzy.2951 said:

Wait to see Q2 2023 Earnings. Cos population has gone down like hell since end of 2022, and mostly maintained with gw2 china increasing earnings.

Yeah I'm curiously waiting to see these earnings, and see if the trend upwards is going to begin, or if it is going to fall back downwards.

[Leger.3724]

6 hours ago, Izzy.2951 said:

Wait to see Q2 2023 Earnings. Cos population has gone down like hell since end of 2022, and mostly maintained with gw2 china increasing earnings.

I would agree with this.

I think people are always willing to give Guild Wars 2 an opportunity and many will be back for SOTO, many will try it out for the first time with that launch.

But we're probably going to see a spike and then another major dropoff. The fundamental flaws within this game are still there. The combat system and mechanics. The grindy nature (and grind these specific things in this specific order grind, not "do hard but enjoyable content") of masteries, achievements, items like legendaries. 

They got the open world pve right. That's good. But for most people especially MMO players they'll go through it, experience it a few times and call it a day. There's a good core in terms of pve open world content. The problem is everything else.

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Leger.3724

[Gehenna.3625]

On 7/29/2023 at 1:33 PM, wolfof.1842 said:

So earnings are higher in 2023, compare to 2016 but team is smaller?

Like mike O brien say 2016: 
"We have about 120 devs working on the live game, 70 devs on Expac2, and 30 devs on core teams that support both."

..and now are less devs than 220 ? 

Less devs, less maps, less mastery, smaller expansions but you still say big investment for future of GW2 ?

When a company makes more money with fewer resources then they're being successful. I'm not sure where people get this myth from that more success means more developers/resources. Anet are clearly looking for a more steady income which ensures that they can keep working on GW2 but they don't want to spend more resources on it because they are working on another game. You know, this unnamed game in Unreal 5 they're working on.

[wolfof.1842]

25 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

When a company makes more money with fewer resources then they're being successful. I'm not sure where people get this myth from that more success means more developers/resources. Anet are clearly looking for a more steady income which ensures that they can keep working on GW2 but they don't want to spend more resources on it because they are working on another game. You know, this unnamed game in Unreal 5 they're working on.

because company won't grow if they spend always less and less resources

People often say we can't compare GW2 and ffxiv, wow,.. because more money, budget, employees.
well how they did get more of all? from investing less resources? Sure not.

But if they work on other game, then is exact what investment look like, new product, more money, more devs.

[Vayne.8563]

9 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

He said it came from head staff of EB games. 😔

Have you actually been to EB Games to check. I know all mine are gone where i live. Three different EB Games all gone.

I just went to my regular Eb Games, bought game cards and talked to the manager. He had no idea what I was talking about. I actually went as soon as you said it, because if it was true, I was going to stock up. It still might be, so I bought extra cards for me and my wife.  We have enough to last us a year now. But I'll keep checking. I'm simply stating fact. A guy in a store, told a guy in my guild exactly that, 3 years ago. In fact, there's even a post about it, if you do a search that's 3 years old. But those cards did come back.

[Vayne.8563]

On 7/29/2023 at 1:28 AM, Izzy.2951 said:

"Anet has chosen to spend their resources on things"

Where are they spending their resources then, on pve? the strikes are cheap as hell to make compared to raids, the maps are lower quality and less, the features are non existing rather than tweaks to old ones, they are barely making no new assets/animations instead reusing them, even the last fractal seemed to be a reused strike. So where are those resources if they are not in pvp/wvw. Let me tell you, they are nowhere in gw2. They might be in anet future projects or in ncsoft pockets, but not in the game development.

But Strikes are, for the most part, reusing new resources not old ones. That is to say, 4 out of 4 of the strikes and challenge missions that came out with EOD aren't using old resources. They're using resources for the strike they used for the story boss while completely changing the mechanic. Many games, have easy raids that are the same or similar to harder raids, is that the same is resuing content. Do we say that a fractal challenge mode that comes out is re-using content from the fractal. No.  It's new content, using the same set of stuff, because it's meant to be a ramp for people. They can get familiar with a boss in story mode, then do a normal mode thing, and then do a challenge mode thing if they want that harder level of difficulty and it seems to be working, at least from my point of view. 

Calling that cheap as hell to make, they made it new for EOD> They're using what they used in EOD intentionally to make a pathway, something that raids don't have and raids didn't have enough people playing them to keep making them. Way to spin the story.

[Dante.1508]

10 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I just went to my regular Eb Games, bought game cards and talked to the manager. He had no idea what I was talking about. I actually went as soon as you said it, because if it was true, I was going to stock up. It still might be, so I bought extra cards for me and my wife.  We have enough to last us a year now. But I'll keep checking. I'm simply stating fact. A guy in a store, told a guy in my guild exactly that, 3 years ago. In fact, there's even a post about it, if you do a search that's 3 years old. But those cards did come back.

I stocked up myself what i could afford, he actually told me as i was buying their last few. He said get them while you can news from head office was they've been discontinued so if you need gem cards grab what you can as they are the last of them.. His words not mine.

You could ring Clifford gardens in Toowoomba Qld if you want it word of mouth, that's where i was told.

[Vayne.8563]

3 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

I stocked up myself what i could afford, he actually told me as i was buying their last few. He said get them while you can news from head office was they've been discontinued so if you need gem cards grab what you can as they are the last of them.. His words not mine.

You could ring Clifford gardens in Toowoomba Qld if you want it word of mouth, that's where i was told.

LIke I said, my personal friend was told the same thing three years ago in Melbourne. I'm not saying he didn't say it to you. I'm saying it turned out not to be true. It's not like I'm accusing you of lying. It just seems weird for management of a company to tell people that they're discontinuing an item that no one is apparently buying, unless someone asked about it.

[Izzy.2951]

11 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

But Strikes are, for the most part, reusing new resources not old ones. That is to say, 4 out of 4 of the strikes and challenge missions that came out with EOD aren't using old resources. They're using resources for the strike they used for the story boss while completely changing the mechanic. Many games, have easy raids that are the same or similar to harder raids, is that the same is resuing content. Do we say that a fractal challenge mode that comes out is re-using content from the fractal. No.  It's new content, using the same set of stuff, because it's meant to be a ramp for people. They can get familiar with a boss in story mode, then do a normal mode thing, and then do a challenge mode thing if they want that harder level of difficulty and it seems to be working, at least from my point of view. 

Calling that cheap as hell to make, they made it new for EOD> They're using what they used in EOD intentionally to make a pathway, something that raids don't have and raids didn't have enough people playing them to keep making them. Way to spin the story.

Are you gonna defend the indefensible, just cos ur a fan of gw2?

When PoF came out we had balthazar, Joko and many others that could have been reused as strike bosses. But they also released Dhuum, Qadim raids etc... So yeah there is a BIG cut in investment in the game. How can you deny that? please tell me.

Second making a raid in amount of voice acting, assets, models, animations, maps, story... its like making 6 strikes. So why arent we getting like 6 strikes a year? (that are not reused from main story) cos they basically just cutted their team investment into gw2.

Third, strikes are even less played nowadays than Raids. And yeah they are definetly just reusing all the assets of the story to make it a harder boss, call it a strike and make it a day. Cheap content indeed.

And please dont make me comment all the amount of content and tweaks they made on pve, pvp etc in all those years compared to now, cos the difference is insane.

PD: Raids were not played more in this game cos 1) no story mode for chill people to play them and see, 2) the game doesnt teach you literally any mechanic or how to play because all the content is too easy so the jumping to raids its hard for anyone initially 3) They didnt even properly marketed raids with trailers etc.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Izzy.2951

[Vayne.8563]

6 hours ago, Izzy.2951 said:

Are you gonna defend the indefensible, just cos ur a fan of gw2?

When PoF came out we had balthazar, Joko and many others that could have been reused as strike bosses. But they also released Dhuum, Qadim raids etc... So yeah there is a BIG cut in investment in the game. How can you deny that? please tell me.

Second making a raid in amount of voice acting, assets, models, animations, maps, story... its like making 6 strikes. So why arent we getting like 6 strikes a year? (that are not reused from main story) cos they basically just cutted their team investment into gw2.

Third, strikes are even less played nowadays than Raids. And yeah they are definetly just reusing all the assets of the story to make it a harder boss, call it a strike and make it a day. Cheap content indeed.

And please dont make me comment all the amount of content and tweaks they made on pve, pvp etc in all those years compared to now, cos the difference is insane.

PD: Raids were not played more in this game cos 1) no story mode for chill people to play them and see, 2) the game doesnt teach you literally any mechanic or how to play because all the content is too easy so the jumping to raids its hard for anyone initially 3) They didnt even properly marketed raids with trailers etc.

Actually I am a fan of the game, but I'm a bigger fan of knowledge.  Inflation is rampant.  It costs more to make a game now than it did 10 years ago. Energy prices are up. Everything has gone up.  The problem here is we don't know the expensense Anet has vs the cost of doing business Anet has, so we don't know how much investment there is. You're making an assumption based on the tip of the iceberg, but you don't work at Anet. You don't have to be a fan to acknowledge you don't have all the facts.

You're talking about investment looking at the final product, but not at the money it costs to make that product and that's not always a safe bet. But the game's getting older, multiple back end things were worked on at the same time, and I'll throw LS 1 into that, and honestly, no one comes out with new strike missions, and calls it reused content.  Anet could have goe back in time and made Balthazar a strike, and they still might, but my money is on them working with the story they have to add value to, get this, what they're doing.  They made the Minister Li Strike, because they're tryign to sell Cantha. They don't need to sell Balthazar.  You take what's an obvious business decision and try to make it look like most businesses would have done the same thing.  It's probably a bad bet.

And then you want to discredit that logic by saying I'm just a fan. No, I'm a guy who ran businesses, before I retired. And I've seen and heard judgement about that businesses from people my whole life and most of it wasn't accurate. It only seemed obvious because people weren't there working to see what happened.  It's great that you feel able to draw conclusions from the little you see, but the game is the tip of the iceberg, not the entire story.  For example, if they're rewriting some code so they can move forward, we'd never know about it, because we don't see that. We don't see any background stuff  being done.

Back in Season 2, they did something to the physics engine of the game, but we never learned the full extent of what that was, or what that entitled.  We saw none of that. Keeping an eleven year old game running takes time.  Making new stuff takes longer as games get older, unless they're very simple games.  Making the assumption that you can judge how much work is being put into a game, or how much investment, by the final product is probably a bad call.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Vayne.8563

[wolfof.1842]

1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Back in Season 2, they did something to the physics engine of the game, but we never learned the full extent of what that was, or what that entitled.  We saw none of that. Keeping an eleven year old game running takes time.  Making new stuff takes longer as games get older, unless they're very simple games.  

Sound like what they say in blog post: 

"A significant number of issues arise from our third-party libraries. Some examples are DirectX 9, Havok (for physics), ... we decided not to upgrade Havok. It is even more tightly integrated into the game than DirectX 9 was, and there is an unacceptable risk of introducing gameplay-breaking physics bugs."

but if you say new things take longer and longer when game gets older,
when would you make decision to start new game then: now, in 5 years, in 10 years?

[Vayne.8563]

24 minutes ago, wolfof.1842 said:

Sound like what they say in blog post: 

"A significant number of issues arise from our third-party libraries. Some examples are DirectX 9, Havok (for physics), ... we decided not to upgrade Havok. It is even more tightly integrated into the game than DirectX 9 was, and there is an unacceptable risk of introducing gameplay-breaking physics bugs."

but if you say new things take longer and longer when game gets older,
when would you make decision to start new game then: now, in 5 years, in 10 years?

You upgrade until you can't anymore, if you're still making money, because the investment in a new game is huge. That doesn't mean you don't make more games. But you tend not to make more games of the same type, and compete with yourself.  They couldn't do what they wanted with Guild Wars 1, so they made Guild Wars 2, but they made it with the idea that it would be more upgradable from the start.  And they moved from a lobby game to an MMO, which made it a huge upgrade.  Five starting areas, and different races, instead of just humans. Big big change.

But Guild Wars 2 is far from where they can't upgrade it anymore. It's unlikely in this climate they're just going to drop it and invest in a new title in the same world at least. My guess is their next project won't be an MMO, or if it is, it will be associated with a different IP.  But I don't see a Guild Wars 3 if that's what you're asking. Not for a long long time.

[Dante.1508]

13 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

LIke I said, my personal friend was told the same thing three years ago in Melbourne. I'm not saying he didn't say it to you. I'm saying it turned out not to be true. It's not like I'm accusing you of lying. It just seems weird for management of a company to tell people that they're discontinuing an item that no one is apparently buying, unless someone asked about it.

Maybe i thought it was odd he even knew what the cards were most staff don't even have a clue they exist these days 😂

[wolfof.1842]

3 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

You upgrade until you can't anymore, if you're still making money, because the investment in a new game is huge. That doesn't mean you don't make more games. But you tend not to make more games of the same type, and compete with yourself.  They couldn't do what they wanted with Guild Wars 1, so they made Guild Wars 2, but they made it with the idea that it would be more upgradable from the start.  And they moved from a lobby game to an MMO, which made it a huge upgrade.  Five starting areas, and different races, instead of just humans. Big big change.

But Guild Wars 2 is far from where they can't upgrade it anymore. It's unlikely in this climate they're just going to drop it and invest in a new title in the same world at least. My guess is their next project won't be an MMO, or if it is, it will be associated with a different IP.  But I don't see a Guild Wars 3 if that's what you're asking. Not for a long long time.

At first makes sense not to stop when you still earn money
but then we would almost never see new games in same IP anymore? 

Example, I think rockstar still earn lot of money with GTA 5 online, and could upgrade much more

But now they work on next GTA 6, same type, same IP but newer, and compete with themself?

Also if they work on new MMO but different IP, then it still take much resources beside GW2 I think:
They have to share earnings of gw2, devs,..
and less devs mean less content = less players, less earnings,... 

So is impossible to keep current game on same level, when they develop new one same time, no?

[Vayne.8563]

9 minutes ago, wolfof.1842 said:

At first makes sense not to stop when you still earn money
but then we would almost never see new games in same IP anymore? 

Example, I think rockstar still earn lot of money with GTA 5 online, and could upgrade much more

But now they work on next GTA 6, same type, same IP but newer, and compete with themself?

Also if they work on new MMO but different IP, then it still take much resources beside GW2 I think:
They have to share earnings of gw2, devs,..
and less devs mean less content = less players, less earnings,... 

So is impossible to keep current game on same level, when they develop new one same time, no?

It's not an easy answer.  I had this problem in publishing when I worked there. I was at a conventionvention on a panel with the head editor of Ace Books, a big scifi publisher and one of the fans asked what can I do as a new writer to get published, and the chief editor said, find something that sells and write something just like it. Just what we need, another celebrity cook book. It's a systemic problem.

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

On 7/25/2023 at 10:55 AM, wolfof.1842 said:

hello I don't think they would "close" the game but keep it online for long time like GW1. 

GW1 graphics were still updated many years later in 2018:

• Max draw distance doubled
• Ground cover vegetation pushed even further.
• Added a new 8X MSAA anti-aliasing option.
• 16x Anisotropic filtering
• Added an Ultra shadow setting.
• ...

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_updates:2018

Even though GW1 was in maintenance for a decade already. I think DX11 for GW2 is fair when is still active now.

But update alone does not say how much content game will get in future.

Could be one, two, three more expansions but game is getting older and older, how many people want to start play queensdale GW2 in 2030?

really? Dang, now I really want to download the game... If only my account wasn't locked due inactivity... Or linked to my banned GW2 account 😕

[wolfof.1842]

10 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

It's not an easy answer.  I had this problem in publishing when I worked there. I was at a conventionvention on a panel with the head editor of Ace Books, a big scifi publisher and one of the fans asked what can I do as a new writer to get published, and the chief editor said, find something that sells and write something just like it. Just what we need, another celebrity cook book. It's a systemic problem.

hm.. sorry I don't know if I fully understand

But I want to ask, you say "You upgrade until you can't anymore"

But why rockstar now work on GTA 6 when they can still upgrade GTA 5 ?
And why it would be different with GW2 and GW3 ?

[Vayne.8563]

8 hours ago, wolfof.1842 said:

hm.. sorry I don't know if I fully understand

But I want to ask, you say "You upgrade until you can't anymore"

But why rockstar now work on GTA 6 when they can still upgrade GTA 5 ?
And why it would be different with GW2 and GW3 ?

MMOs, when they upgrade, tend to rebuild worlds from scratch, because older versions are limited in how far they can go and devs want to go further.  You can't really compare other games to MMOs.  It's not so easy to make another MMO or WoW would have done it.  Other types of games are meant to have a new version that upgrades every year. MMOs are meant to be one game that keeps upgrading.  I don't know how most people feel about the GTA characters, or how much they spend on each version of that game, but I reckon it's less than an MMO. People get very attached to the world to their characters. Any change where you move the game is a problem.

But here any change where they split the population is a problem. They come out with Guild Wars 3 and if it's good, some people leave, maybe a lot of people, maybe even most people, and those that are left and don't like it are basically screwed. Not even people to do content spread all over the game that requires people to do content.

Right now, there is zero content I can't get done. Even stuff like Serpent's Ire which is arguably the least done meta in the game, is doable if you want to be proactive about it. I can run dungeons, old raids, fractals, some of the oldest achievements that need a group can be tougher.  But I can still get it done by being proactive.  But once you split the population I can't make that guarantee. A new MMO in the same IP that's updated, really hits the old MMO hard.

[wolfof.1842]

4 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

MMOs, when they upgrade, tend to rebuild worlds from scratch, because older versions are limited in how far they can go and devs want to go further.  You can't really compare other games to MMOs.  It's not so easy to make another MMO or WoW would have done it.  Other types of games are meant to have a new version that upgrades every year. MMOs are meant to be one game that keeps upgrading.  I don't know how most people feel about the GTA characters, or how much they spend on each version of that game, but I reckon it's less than an MMO. People get very attached to the world to their characters. Any change where you move the game is a problem.

But here any change where they split the population is a problem. They come out with Guild Wars 3 and if it's good, some people leave, maybe a lot of people, maybe even most people, and those that are left and don't like it are basically screwed. Not even people to do content spread all over the game that requires people to do content.

Right now, there is zero content I can't get done. Even stuff like Serpent's Ire which is arguably the least done meta in the game, is doable if you want to be proactive about it. I can run dungeons, old raids, fractals, some of the oldest achievements that need a group can be tougher.  But I can still get it done by being proactive.  But once you split the population I can't make that guarantee. A new MMO in the same IP that's updated, really hits the old MMO hard.

To have some context:
People spend hundred or thousand of dollars in last decade of GTA 5 (online) too, like other MMO:

• GW2 sell gem cards ($)
• GTA5 sell shark cards ($) 

It is very similar situation really
You can buy outfit, vehicles,... just like outfit, mounts in GW2
This is why rockstar have not released new GTA from 2013 - 2023, they still earn lot of money like this

But soon when next GTA 6 release, most people simply will start play new version. This is how it works, new game replace old game all the time
So same thing can be if GW3 release I think, most people play new version, and it get updates for many years again. People always adapt to what is new release on market.