It's time to unnerf Shiro in PvE

[Shao.7236]

9 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Honestly, I'm not sure what you mean by "upkeep modification" here. It seems that you're suggesting that upkeep skills have a lingering effect when turned off, which... ehhh? Maybe? They'd probably need to increase the activation costs to compensate, which would just make them more front-loaded and thus make it even more complicated to use other skills. Draconic Echo works because facet use is also limited by cooldowns. Could make for an interesting trait, I guess.

All I can sum up prior to this quote is that all skills can't be equally compared because they are all situtionally different, making up to that for Jade Wind would definitely make CtA or EE less attractive which we don't want no? Yes they both can be used more often, yes they one can pull while the other can heal or even grant stability, but they don't have a 600 radius, they don't increase damage potential and they are not part of a power based set of utility to one of which is ultimately mandatory to reach meta levels of viability.

I simply can't see Jade Wind being healthy if it can be used to the same degree of CtA or EE, I need something that proves that otherwise, I know it sounds contradictory that because Core can use it often makes no difference it should make no difference on elites but elites have the benefits of skills/traits Core doesn't have for obvious reasons and those skills defines Revenant relevance in the meta so logically why add on top of that while leaving core empty handed?

This is why I think instead of just buffing by reducing which does nothing for core but adds the extra possibility of sliding one skill in an elite rotation.

 

 

As for upkeep, here is a way to help understand better and do not associate energy cost with the time, 6 seconds is just a good number based on other factors.

If Impossible Odds -6 -> Relinquish Power within 6 seconds, IO effect remains as a passive for 6 seconds while IO is set on a CD of 10 seconds.

Else if Impossible Odds -6 -> Relinquish Power outside 6 seconds window, IO passive is not applied and IO itself is not set on a cooldown.

In practice you have a generous window to earn the passive by Relinquish Power while still have energy equivalent to it is depleted until done so and with that comes the benefit of having full energy restoration with the upkeep effect however at the end of the passive you are punished for a technical 4 seconds (10 - 6 = 4) similar to running out of energy with upkeep.

If IO is not turned off by Relinquish Power by the time it requires the passive to active, you simply don't get it while having full control of the skill rather than the cooldown because you went above the budget cost of -6 and 6 seconds afterward, this would be punishing the user which would make the benefits redundant.

Why is the system in place? So that turning it on and off doesn't outweight the cost with the passive. That I constantly repeat as well, there's nothing to benefit as it is.

Apply that to anything but urn and you cover the lack of energy and buff core at the same time. Everyone is happy.

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Shao.7236

[Shao.7236]

3 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I don't truly "understand the meaning of it" because your proposal is not well laid out or easy to understand with how you've written your posts. All I see is complications, more work for Anet, more bugs for the class, and a proposal that doesn't fix anything, just adds for no reason while stepping further outside what Revenant is supposed to encompass

Refer to the latest for the sake of understanding, because it truly isn't that complicated and already uses existing assets.

So what's that about the purity of the class? No one "actually" plays Revenant, they play anything but what it actually is. It's supposed to emcompass something no one is truly experiencing and because this vision you speak of is lacking altogether. If the design is lacking, make it better. That's what they did for anything in this game and this should be no exception, I've went at it for nearly 4 years now and it's almost perfect to my eyes, only a few things that really stand out is why it can't perform.

3 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Herald is allowed to be different since it's an elite spec; it's not supposed to function identically to Core, Ren, or Vindi. This is just a made up issue by you to justify giving core new things for no reason.

By the way, Core will never be as strong as the Elites in PvE simply because it doesn't have the damage modifiers the elites do. None of the 3rd Core traitlines are good enough to replace an Elite line in PvE and changing upkeeps to overlap and stay around passively won't change that. It's clear you're not mainly a PvE player (which is fine!) or else you'd realize this. I also don't get why you're in a PvE thread asking for complete reworks of class mechanics to boost Core when you're not mainly a PvE player. Core will almost always be behind Elites on each profession simply due to how the system has worked. This is fine in PvE

Anything is allowed to be different if it doesn't work. Part of why you surely disagree is because the suggestion ain't clear anyway but you can look again since I simplified it.

Still, Core has all that it takes, if it was just a matter of traits then Herald with 2 core legends wouldn't perform the same or worst, same goes to all the other elites, with SotO we are already bridging a lot of what made core so limited no longer be as such.

I'm looking at PvE because while I'm not maining it, its still something I play and would like to see improve and because the suggestions here is something that I know won't do much but power creep elites, I'd rather give everyone something than just elites.

If you play close attention also, the benefits of this change benefits all legends but significally core because the changes improves on the main aspect of the profession and not just the niche of elites because elites rarely use two core legends, they're typically their associated legend with a core one instead.

3 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

This sentence proves you don't get what people are asking for. None of the reasonable PvE proposals in here are looking to "do jack for DPS" by lowering energy costs. It's literally looking to give UTILITY its ability to be used as UTILITY without losing a big chunk of dps while using UTILITY. Literally the changes just want to be able to use Phase Traversal as a gap closer or Jade Winds as a stun MORE OFTEN than they're used now. The proposals are not looking to add raw dps or make rotations more complicated, but to provide the ability to use utility for LESS of a dps tradeoff. Lower costs does not = more dps, just better access to utility and higher uptime on dps since gap closers (phase traversal) can be used more freely

Core lacks in DPS because it doesn't have the ability to combine much skills to increase it's potential, elites do. Those changes touch on the lack of energy because upkeep is the most energy intensive but the most meaningful (Figures), however everyone wonders why they can't use anything, ask for lower costs but don't realize that it only catters to elites while core can already do what they are asking for, lowering costs will make it so core can literally use so much and still achieve nothing while elites just gets away with an extra skill which is just so unproductive for the entire profession so why not make it better for core by fixing the issue that taints everything?

Upkeep is lacking on Core, you can afk on it because energy is abundant and even with all modifiers it's not enough. Upkeep is too intensive on elites because they don't get the same that cores does but it's the one thing that pumps damage so they want more to use utility.

This isn't about DPS for elites regardless but for core since it benefits from it the same elites will but also get more energy to work with without changing the costs.

3 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Lastly, keep solutions simple. No need to rework a class mechanic to fix something that lowering energy costs a bit fixes

It's hardly a rework, you're adding something into a skill that does nothing. Again, what's complicated about that? The suggestion is as simple as what Herald got over the years if not simplier because you're not adding anything new to the game, you're changing behaviors of existing features.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Shao.7236

[draxynnic.3719]

On 9/1/2023 at 5:04 AM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

By the way, Core will never be as strong as the Elites in PvE simply because it doesn't have the damage modifiers the elites do. None of the 3rd Core traitlines are good enough to replace an Elite line in PvE and changing upkeeps to overlap and stay around passively won't change that. It's clear you're not mainly a PvE player (which is fine!) or else you'd realize this. I also don't get why you're in a PvE thread asking for complete reworks of class mechanics to boost Core when you're not mainly a PvE player. Core will almost always be behind Elites on each profession simply due to how the system has worked. This is fine in PvE

Playing devil's advocate: It could be possible, if enough damage was given to a third core traitline (most likely Retribution). We saw this with core guardian being viable in some endgame content, at least before EoD: because it was possible to have Zeal, Radiance, and Virtues all lined up to support a power damage build.

On 9/1/2023 at 7:10 AM, Shao.7236 said:

All I can sum up prior to this quote is that all skills can't be equally compared because they are all situtionally different, making up to that for Jade Wind would definitely make CtA or EE less attractive which we don't want no? Yes they both can be used more often, yes they one can pull while the other can heal or even grant stability, but they don't have a 600 radius, they don't increase damage potential and they are not part of a power based set of utility to one of which is ultimately mandatory to reach meta levels of viability.

They absolutely can be compared. Identify the core effect (crowd control), compare the strengths of the core effects. Identify the secondary effects, evaluate the benefit you're likely to get from the secondary effects. It's not going to be an exact science where you can identify that one skill is worth precisely 32 energy while another is worth precisely 37, but you can darn well look at the characteristics and evaluate whether one is so much better than the others that it justifies costing 66% more energy and having a longer activation time.

Spoiler: it doesn't.

The main benefit Jade Winds has is the larger area. In a competitive environment, yeah, that's a big deal. In PvE? It still has the same 5-target limit that the other skills we're comparing it to has, and it's centred on the user when the other skills being discussed are ground-targeted. Odds are pretty good that in most cases where the multitarget nature matters at all to begin with, you'll be able to fit 5 targets or close to that within a 360 radius ground-targeted reticule, so the number of times when that range really matters will be limited.

Again, I get that in PvP the wider radius is a bigger deal, but in PvE? Only time I'd really consider using it, except for cats and giggles, is as a panic button when I somehow have energy to burn yet everything else is on cooldown.

The complicated part is not in comparing the skills directly, but in considering their position within the legend on the whole. But I think the evidence there is in how it's used: Jalis, Mallyx, and Ventari all use a variety of skills in PvE. Shiro is, almost always, just a case of sticking IO on and just using weapon skills.

 

On the lingering upkeep proposal:

Hrrrmn. Could work. I'm concerned, however, that it might create one more complication for the player to keep track of (shutting it off at 5s would give a much worse outcome than shutting it off at 7s). Could possibly be resolved by instead of having a flat 4s for the lockout period, the lockout period starts at 6s and reduces by one second for every second you maintain the upkeep. Or even make it start out higher than 6s and reduce by more than one second for every second of upkeep - essentially making it a tradeoff of paying energy now for a smaller debt in cooldown later.  

[SunTheBro.4853]

On 8/15/2023 at 3:57 AM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

There's a lot of massive overthinking in this thread honestly. It's not that deep and it's really quite simple: Shiro will always use IO for damage and that's fine. Decreasing energy costs on its utility skills allows you to actually use them, ya know, for utility without completely tanking your dps. 

Simple solution (and the only solution that needs to happen) is to decrease the ridiculous energy costs, NOT rework the entire upkeep system or overload skills with even more effects. This is PvE and none of Shiro's skills would be ridiculously abusable if the costs were decreased a bit and we certainly don't need a full rework of Rev mechanics simply to boost Shiro's usability.

I feel like this needs to be reiterated.

Shiro and Mallyx utility skills need an energy cost reduction. Simple and most straightforward solution.

 

If Core Revenant has issues, then that's a separate problem.