PvP has become Call of Duty

[Enduronex.4865]

On 9/3/2023 at 4:24 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

As long as you can see the engagement coming and have buttons that will let you respond to this if you see the engagement coming, I have never minded people melting in 2 seconds. 2 seconds is plenty of time to respond to something even if it catches you by surprise. 

I would much rather that than a sea of players explaining why they should be entitled to live a particular amount of time (outside of the time required to respond to incoming damage), when they eat damage they could have responded to half a minute ago by watching the map. 

 

Because the playerbase doesn't argue with people as thick as you on the forums, they just quit the game.  That is why the player base is so low that players are averaging ranked 200-300 points lower.

[Vancho.8750]

On 9/3/2023 at 11:24 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

As long as you can see the engagement coming and have buttons that will let you respond to this if you see the engagement coming, I have never minded people melting in 2 seconds. 2 seconds is plenty of time to respond to something even if it catches you by surprise. 

I would much rather that than a sea of players explaining why they should be entitled to live a particular amount of time (outside of the time required to respond to incoming damage), when they eat damage they could have responded to half a minute ago by watching the map. 

 

I personally wouldn't mind the damage if the bursty builds were more punishable for kittening up, if I make the guy miss his skills 3 times and I don't get to punch him in the nuts because they can run 15 defensive skills on top of the damage and then I get hit with 10k on the next attack the game sucks , if I get punished for playing properly and some guy gets rewarded for flailing and failing the game sucks, if the whole game plan of the build is to fail and reset till I no longer can defend myself the game is boring and it sucks . In short I have problem with dumbasses kittening around and not finding out.
The annoying part is that for some reason Anet always adds these rules for thee and not for me builds . 

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Maybe if maurader was un nerfed some builds wouldn't go for all out glass dps but unfortunately due to continuous crying about to much sustain being present our runes were nerfed into oblivion so now u either go full glass dps or full sustain and do gbage damage, anyone could guess what would be chosen. Let's be honest and realistic, real balance is impossible with any amount of variations that would allow a game to be even interesting. There will always be winners and losers in every patch and will always change around, sucks when it's tome for ur class to be a loser.

1- if a class is actually a bruiser build that's effective there will be threads stating its damage is to high for its sustain or vice versa, there will be threads complaining the build never dies.

2- if the build has low sustain but high damage there will be threads stating its damage is to high, its low sustain is mostly disregarded as unless it has 0 mobility or 0 defensive skills the options it does have in addition to its high bursts are always to many.

In conclusion- if things die fast damage is to high, if things don't die fast damage is to low or sustain to high and if builds are in the middle of these to variables see #1, there will always be crying.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Psycoprophet.8107

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 hours ago, chromodynamix.2495 said:

Because the playerbase doesn't argue with people as thick as you on the forums, they just quit the game.  That is why the player base is so low that players are averaging ranked 200-300 points lower.

I haven't said anything incorrect or unreasonable. 💀☕️

I know what y'all want, and I don't want it.  Neither does the majority of the population, we tried bunker meta twice. The first time we failed esports because of it, the second time was the megapatch, that everyone hated. 

Whether or not they want to argue with the Thickest Warrior in The Mists ™ makes no difference. I will -always- lean on the side of arguing that is fairly delivered as possible (like what @Vancho.8750 mentioned above, as long as the builds putting out high damage have limited survivability to match.), but at some point people need to learn to not wait until a burst build has descended upon them before considering how they'll survive it. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

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But like I said, maybe I just need to play more.  I will be back in there tonight for more punishment.  🙂

A TROOPER!

there is hope yet. 

19 hours ago, Stee Janz.8126 said:

With the current burst is king state,  it only takes a very very small  amount of coordination to utilize stun locks to nuke someone. 

Yes. Consider, however, that coordination on a single target takes focus away from your teammate. This is where the strategy lies. Your teammate can either peel for you, or support you with healing.

If your teammate isnt there, you are outnumbered, and this was a misplay on your part if you are not expecting to escape that coordination. Thy sentence is death 💀

Focusing has been a part of gw2 pvp for a long time. Its just often been relegated to necros because they had the most reward for casting on team fights uninterrupted (or were punished the most for not being able to do that) but the game has changed a bit. 

Speaking of!

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It has happened to me a few times where I blew all my stun breaks and still didn't get out of it.  It was like the damage is just waiting for your "oh crap to cool off".   

What you experienced was someone who knew your utilities and was watching like a hawk to determine when you could no longer escape. People know what you can do here, once you run out of buttons you will be focused to take you out of the fight. 

Most of the damage that interrupts you can be escaped or avoided, but you need to know what is hitting you.  Can you define what you didn't get out of? If not, you were likely less experienced than the person who blew you up, because they apparently knew your buttons but you didn't know theirs. 

You'll figure this out in time.  If anything is unavoidable despite knowing what it is, THAT'S where we can talk nerfing. 

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If it stays this way, ANet will need to add a clear alarm that your are being focused by other team as soon as your marked because once the action starts, not sure you can get out of it today.  Well for those players that don't have the ability to just vanish in the mists. 

No markers. Why should the opposing team have this information? If players have to announce who they're focusing, a lot of the strategy bleeds out of the game. Imagine if a pitcher in baseball had to announce how he was going to throw.

That's for raids, not pvp. With enough games, you will be able to anticipate when will you get focused and be able to set up to respond appropriately.

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 Granted that is a point you made before that at least one you your utilities out to "get you the Hell out of there"  button but the whole utility bar?  Not all professions are equal when it comes to what is available and how its available. 

True. And if a profession lacks in utility options, that should be fixed.  That is a different argument that isnt solved by "allow people to build to survive 2v1s." 

 

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 you sure has hell can't be a clicker...... if you have to mouse click the skill your dead

Correct. You need faster keybinds for this. If you need to skill click on any but a very small pool of builds you'll get deleted. They make mice with side buttons for this specifically!

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I think there is merit to the original post to the current state

There are still a lot of tanky builds that can take some punishment, but you need to be very careful about how you implement these. Dying immediately can be frustrating, but you can control that with utility use and knowing where and where not to be.

You can't control someone built to 2v1 that wont die to incoming damage despite tanking all of it beyond throwing another person at them, and that is infinitely more boring and leads to more quitting.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Stee Janz.8126]

8 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

A TROOPER!

there is hope yet. 

Hey I realize I need to work on my game.    So I can concede that for sure.

8 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Yes. Consider, however, that coordination on a single target takes focus away from your teammate. This is where the strategy lies. Your teammate can either peel for you, or support you with healing.

If your teammate isnt there, you are outnumbered, and this was a misplay on your part if you are not expecting to escape that coordination. Thy sentence is death 💀

Focusing has been a part of gw2 pvp for a long time. Its just often been relegated to necros because they had the most reward for casting on team fights uninterrupted (or were punished the most for not being able to do that) but the game has changed a bit. 

Speaking of!

Yep yep.  Been playing GW2 since early access.  Original GW1 player here.  I get how PVP works even if I am not very good at it and I get position matters all that stuff.   The original post was about the Power Creep, which IMO appears to be a problem right now.  More than likely its due to the recent changes which I still believe are good but it can still be true there is power creep.    

9 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

What you experienced was someone who knew your utilities and was watching like a hawk to determine when you could no longer escape. People know what you can do here, once you run out of buttons you will be focused to take you out of the fight. 

Most of the damage that interrupts you can be escaped or avoided, but you need to know what is hitting you.  Can you define what you didn't get out of? If not, you were likely less experienced than the person who blew you up, because they apparently knew your buttons but you didn't know theirs. 

You'll figure this out in time.  If anything is unavoidable despite knowing what it is, THAT'S where we can talk nerfing. 

I am sitting at tier 1 and 2 of gold so I find really hard to believe that the opposing players are playing at that high of a level.  So rather all the higher tier players  are mixed with gold or something is off.  Either of those being true lends merit to the OP.     And not all classes are the same and there is some merit to the original poster about the invulnerability, and stealth capabilities out there for glass cannons.   I switched to a more bursting build because that seems to be the way the games are going right now.    Does a decent support Engie build even exist?

9 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

No markers. Why should the opposing team have this information? If players have to announce who they're focusing, a lot of the strategy bleeds out of the game. Imagine if a pitcher in baseball had to announce how he was going to throw.

That's for raids, not pvp. With enough games, you will be able to anticipate when will you get focused and be able to set up to respond appropriately.

I actually agree with this.  I was being a bit of a meathead  to make a point.   I added more stun breaks to my build just to try to get away but it doesn't work.  I feel like I have to bring rocket boots on the build every time just to escape.   I am getting dropped when I have my shield up on my engie  with slick shoes popped.  It's happened quite a few times in seconds.  So I am seeing what the OP is talking about. 

9 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

True. And if a profession lacks in utility options, that should be fixed.  That is a different argument that isnt solved by "allow people to build to survive 2v1s." 

But isn't that really what the OP is getting at.   That something needs to be done to change what is happening right now because its not a level playing field.   Again, could have worded it differently but just telling people to "get good" seems like your more about defending the game then constructive criticism.  Again, comparing it to COD was not the way to get this conversation started.  :)

9 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Correct. You need faster keybinds for this. If you need to skill click on any but a very small pool of builds you'll get deleted. They make mice with side buttons for this specifically!

There are still a lot of tanky builds that can take some punishment, but you need to be very careful about how you implement these. Dying immediately can be frustrating, but you can control that with utility use and knowing where and where not to be.

I am a lefty so not a lot of choices for me on mouses but I did get the left handed Naga for that very reason.   Having said that, there should be builds for clickers that can contribute(not a 100% clicking but moderately), especially in the lower levels.   But I would concede they shouldn't be glass cannons playing at a high level.     Right now and for some time now, its seems to be much harder to play a tankie build than the glass cannon.     Yes, I am looking in the mirror here.  I am 51 and my reflexes ain't what they used to be so if I can play decently as burst, I definitely think something is off.   :)

9 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

You can't control someone built to 2v1 that wont die to incoming damage despite tanking all of it beyond throwing another person at them, and that is infinitely more boring and leads to more quitting.

I actually disagree with this statement in the context of the original post.  I would agree  that games going the distance because the didn't reach 500 points, makes for more boring play.   However, the original post was about death within seconds not minutes.    Come on, you know you enjoy the couple minute, 1 on 1 battles where you come out victorious over the other guy after dancing with the for a bit, over the I just nuked the poor guy in 3-4 seconds.    I think the original OP was about dealing with that.     I will also concede that I assume the OP is a seasoned PVP player, that they have played a fair amount of sPVP to form their opinion.

[Widebody.5071]

If Mesmer is so strong and tanky why is it possible to go back 5 months or so in the forums and not find one post topic like my mesmer is "too strong" it needs "nerfing or retuning", "it's boring" and "it's just unfun".

Not coming down on Mesmers but there's some folks that do just that every month to other classes and are very effective in seeking changes they want. 

[Arklite.4013]

The misplaced FGC analogies may land better without being unnecessarily condescending. Things like prediction or baiting play a much smaller role in GW2 than some would lead you to believe, even for simple reasons like 3d movement or a dodge that you can use at basically any time, including during your own skills. Certain builds are afforded more opportunities with higher payoffs and lower risk than others +/- a disproportionate amount of defensive tools for how threatening they are. One of the builds initially listed (warrior hammer) sacrifices very little to have access to devastating touch of death-like combos, which they will eventually land on a player of equal skill purely because their build provides more opportunities to do so. This is even more frustrating for the other 97% of people who play PvP, because unfortunately, the vast majority of the PvP population will never reach the skill or understanding required to have the game sense or reactions necessary for "don't get hit" to be a valid excuse. Games with broad audiences have to leverage balancing around the top level of play with the largest level of play - one thing to keep in mind is these outlier no-fun stompy builds are even more egregious at lower skill levels. Nobody likes getting 100 to 0'd because they got hit once without a stunbreak available (in the event of damage, this part doesn't even matter). This is the same reason why things like no-hit speedruns or boss fights are frustrating, because you have to indefinitely play perfectly or die (or at least be put at a significant disadvantage) because you made one mistake. This is the current state of the game at every level of play except the actual top 50ish players.

That aside, the bigger problem is still things that you can't reasonably predict or react to, such as burst/CC from stealth or from the other side of a wall.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Arklite.4013

[jdawgie.1835]

5 hours ago, Stee Janz.8126 said:

I am sitting at tier 1 and 2 of gold so I find really hard to believe that the opposing players are playing at that high of a level.

The difference between gold 2 and gold 3 and plat 1 are as vast as the distance from sea level to the top of mount Everest. Plat 2 to 3 and higher are as vast as the difference between heaven and earth. I hate to break it to you - but finding it hard to believe is part of the problem with the people on the forums. I 100 respect your posts, approach, and what youve shared here so know that. However not understanding the difference between just gold 2 and gold 3 is misguided. Their completely different divisions. The higher you go - the wider the gap becomes to. 

[Sneakers.8462]

The current damage output on some classes is absurdly high, which I can agree with.  However, I can't agree with the stunlock complaints. 

Everyone saying they only have access to 3-4 stunbreaks at max but are you forgetting all of your other defences?
- Stability
- Aegis
- Dodges / Evades
- Blinds
- Blocks
- Kiting
- Using no-port spots to prevent teleport bursts.

Also, peel for teammates. If they're being CC'ed and focused, damage the target that is doing that. Take some of the pressure off them.
 

 

[Stee Janz.8126]

7 hours ago, jdawgie.1835 said:

The difference between gold 2 and gold 3 and plat 1 are as vast as the distance from sea level to the top of mount Everest. Plat 2 to 3 and higher are as vast as the difference between heaven and earth. I hate to break it to you - but finding it hard to believe is part of the problem with the people on the forums. I 100 respect your posts, approach, and what youve shared here so know that. However not understanding the difference between just gold 2 and gold 3 is misguided. Their completely different divisions. The higher you go - the wider the gap becomes to. 

Hey I can totally concede that my issue maybe my current skill level.   I just started playing sPVP again last week and the highest I have been is Gold 2 tier 1 (fell back to gold 1 last night)  So pretty much the bottom of the barrel.  Haven't gotten anywhere near gold 3(have been into platie in the past though.)    But that was the point I was trying to make.  The level of play that I see happening in the lower levels doesn't seem right.   Seems more advanced, like its easier than it should be which gives some merit to the original post.    Not sure the "you just don't understand" is an effective reply to convince me that I am wrong.   :) 

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Stee Janz.8126

[MilkyTea.9042]

Does this mean we get to play as Nicki Minaj for Arenanet's 50th anniversary hip-hop promo?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

10 hours ago, Arklite.4013 said:

The misplaced FGC analogies may land better without being unnecessarily condescending. Things like prediction or baiting play a much smaller role in GW2 than some would lead you to believe, even for simple reasons like 3d movement or a dodge that you can use at basically any time, including during your own skills.

Prediction and baiting can be applied regardless of how free form movement and dodging are. You have to think a bit bigger though.

Dodges can be used at any time, yes, but people have 10-20ish skills (in most cases, given profession mechanics. eles have more but they all ten to do one specific thing), 3 utilities, an elite, and a heal. As they fight you they use these, so by keeping track of what's been used you can often times determine what options are left, and encourage the usage of skills that may frustrate burst damage delivery to set up damage. 3D movement is a thing, sure, but keeping an eye on the map, and the direction that your opponents are going can help you anticipate what kind of fight is going to happen at which point next. 

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Certain builds are afforded more opportunities with higher payoffs and lower risk than others +/- a disproportionate amount of defensive tools for how threatening they are.

Sure.

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One of the builds initially listed (warrior hammer) sacrifices very little to have access to devastating touch of death-like combos, which they will eventually land on a player of equal skill purely because their build provides more opportunities to do so.

It only damages you on one hammer skill, it has one movement skill that is high telegraphed and costs a resource to use, none of the hammer skills have any mitigative factor, and it is so ranged limited that you can outrun most of the CC skills that would initiate a stunlock if you are reasonably aware of the warrior's position.

What do you mean "sacrifices very little?" I've seen several other classes invest less work for more payoff. 

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This is even more frustrating for the other 97% of people who play PvP, because unfortunately, the vast majority of the PvP population will never reach the skill or understanding required to have the game sense or reactions necessary for "don't get hit" to be a valid excuse.

I'd like my toolkits to not be watered down so far that they become useless against the players that reached the above skill level. If a skill that is hard to land against someone that knows what to look for, and the thing to look for is obvious, that really should be the end of the discussion.

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Games with broad audiences have to leverage balancing around the top level of play with the largest level of play - one thing to keep in mind is these outlier no-fun stompy builds are even more egregious at lower skill levels. Nobody likes getting 100 to 0'd because they got hit once without a stunbreak available (in the event of damage, this part doesn't even matter). This is the same reason why things like no-hit speedruns or boss fights are frustrating, because you have to indefinitely play perfectly or die (or at least be put at a significant disadvantage) because you made one mistake.

Getting 100-0'd because you got hit without a stunbreak available is at least two mistakes. Either you used the stunbreak then got hit again before it was off CD, or you didn't take one, which is a mistake in and of itself.  This is nothing like no hit speedrunning, and perfection is not being asked of anyone. 

I dislike minimizing the fact that people have options to avoid these things, use them, then get hit again, while overexaggerating the damage certain builds (like hammer warrior) do, when all you have to look for is one skill (while you're stunned). It can't get any more forgiving than it already is. 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

13 hours ago, Stee Janz.8126 said:

Come on, you know you enjoy the couple minute, 1 on 1 battles where you come out victorious over the other guy after dancing with the for a bit, over the I just nuked the poor guy in 3-4 seconds.    I think the original OP was about dealing with that.     I will also concede that I assume the OP is a seasoned PVP player, that they have played a fair amount of sPVP to form their opinion.

I will reply to the original post in full soon, but I do enjoy these couple minute, 1v1 battles. The thing is that when both players know what theyre doing, 1v1s will last a couple minutes even when they are both on nuke builds. 

I'm really not wanting to do snoozebattles. From one duelist to another. I hope you can understand why I am being so antagonistic. What would probably translate to "couple minute, 1v1 fights" if extra mitigation were baked into the kits could very easily translate into "These players will -not- kill each other at low to mid plat".

Edited September 7, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261