It's time to admit the Scrapper Quickness changes were a mistake. Here are some solutions for how to fix it.

[Vandal.5621]

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/popularity

Scrapper has never been a particularly popular class, but it had a strong, dedicated base who enjoyed it. Just before the changes to Scrapper Quickness dropped, Scrapper's popularity in raids was just under 4%. Not incredible, but solid. In fact, 3.86% is almost exactly the expected average for 27 elite specs. The Quickness patch that removed Quickness from the core mechanic of the spec and moved it to combos immediately cut the popularity of the spec by more than half. And since then, each patch has resulted in fewer and fewer Scrappers. Scrapper popularity in raids, for example, sits at a meager 1.06%. More than 2/3 of Scrapper players have stopped playing it. I'm one of those players. My main has long been a Scrapper. My first legendary was Juggernaut (crafted the old way through achievements to get the precursor). And I can't stand playing my previously-favorite spec anymore. And the cherry on top of this situation is that the change, which was designed to let us have flexibility in builds so we can hold key skills for certain situations, has forced us into an even more rigid style of play. It's made the problem worse and forces us to waste one of the coolest things about the spec (Function Gyro) just to maintain Quickness.

That is a problem, and it's impossible to ignore. So what can ANet do?

1. Revert the change. This is the simplest solution. Clearly Scrappers preferred the old way to the new way. This doesn't fix the problem that the change was designed to fix to begin with, but it would be better than what we have.

2. Expand the types of combos KE gives Quickness for. The big problem is that the new way forces us to play in a very specific way to maintain Quickness uptime, while other specs (like Harbinger) can just ignore the fact that they have to give Quickness and just do their normal rotations, and the Quickness will naturally be applied at 100% uptime. If KE expanded to all combos, Scrappers could do their previous rotation, focusing on dealing damage without wasting their Function Gyro or locking themselves into a Rocket Charge. Allow Scrappers to just do what they want to do, and passively let that generate Quickness.

3. Make Quickness granted from another part of the kit, such as Explosions. You want Scrappers to be able to hold onto valuable abilities like Blast Gyro and Function Gyro when they're needed? Then give us a way to maintain Quickness without using important cooldowns (while operating at a DPS loss for the time when you're holding skills). You know what Engineers have access to on-demand? Explosions. We do a lot of them naturally during rotation (Electro-Whirl, Blast Gyro, Grenade Barrage, Shrapnel Grenade, etc.). There's even a whole trait tree for 'em. And we can even, if necessary, spam Grenade (Grenade Kit #1) to get tons of Explosive procs. It's a DPS loss to spam Grenade, but if Explosions granted Quickness, then when we're holding onto our valuable CDs like Grenade Barrage and Blast Gyro for a break bar/burst phase, we can fall back to spamming Grenade to maintain Quickness at the cost of our own personal DPS.

Personally, my preferred solution is #3, as it fixes the issue that the change was originally intended to fix while also allowing Scrappers to keep playing the spec they've enjoyed for years. There would need to be another way added to allow for Heal Scrapper to have Quickness (perhaps grant it through Regen?), but Power Scrapper being the predominate choice for the spec, I focused on that.

What are y'all's thoughts on how to fix this problem?

[jason.1083]

I'm with #2.

If they just made whirl a combo type that's granted quickness that would solve it. Just pick Hammer + Shredder Gyros any boom,there's your 100% Quickness uptime, they could even removed leaps from their equation to "compensate".

[Noah Salazar.5430]

As qheal scrapper main, i call it as improvment

combo fields and finishers was always part of this class mechanics

 

as qheal your using blast in fire field of blasting gyro to give aoe might to team (3might per blast)

or on posion field to apply aoe weaknes (-50%dmg)

even med kit 3 can be used to blast aoe healing in cause of need

 

as qdps you leap in lighting fields, for aoe daze

 

Now your geting quickness with what you usualy wuld do, racher then spaming superspeed, you need think about 50% less

Not mentioning now your function gyro, and bypas coating (aoe stun break) are free and out of rotation, so you can use them whenever you want

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popularity in raids was just under 4%, Not incredible, but solid. In fact, 3.86% is almost exactly the expected average for 27 elite specs. The Quickness patch that removed Quickness from the core mechanic of the spec and moved it to combos immediately cut the popularity of the spec by more than half. And since then, each patch has resulted in fewer and fewer Scrappers. Scrapper popularity in raids, for example, sits at a meager 1.06%

Cuz of low popularity, thers almost no guides, most ppl not know what to do

Edited September 12, 2023 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Vandal.5621]

11 minutes ago, Noah Salazar.5430 said:

as qdps you leap in lighting fields, for aoe daze

 

Now your geting quickness with what you usualy wuld do, racher then spaming superspeed

As QDPS I don't want to be constantly locking myself into a long animation Rocket Charge. And that alone is not enough to maintain Quickness. You still need to waste Function Gyro, and you can't even run Blast Gyro anymore because you have to take Throw Mine, instead.

Also, QDPS wants to spam superspeed. That's kind of its whole deal.

Edit: Also, this post is primarily about DPS Scrapper, not Heal Scrapper, because Heal Scrapper has never been too popular in PvE, and in PvP it can't even grant Quickness. Regardless, I do mention that there should still be a way for Heal Scrapper to apply Quickness if Quickness was moved away from combos to Explosions or something else, such as on Regen or something like that.

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Cuz of low popularity, thers almost no guides, most ppl not know what to do

No, that's not the issue. People knew exactly what to do. The problem is that it is unfun, not good, and too irritating to execute compared to other Quickness specs that give Quickness just by breathing.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Vandal.5621

[Noah Salazar.5430]

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As QDPS I don't want to be constantly locking myself into a long animation Rocket Charge

Thats a point, Roket Charge + field is strong combination, not mentioning thay buffed it's dmg, and made it faster, so now it's also part of dps rotation

Best to use Rocket Charge after you used 5 on hammer, and shredder gyro, or spare capatitor

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 and you can't even run Blast Gyro anymore because you have to take Throw Mine, instead.

your taking shred gyro, throw mine, and blast gyro

Edited September 12, 2023 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Vandal.5621]

3 minutes ago, Noah Salazar.5430 said:

Thats a point, Roket Charge + field is strong combination, not mentioning thay buffed it's dmg, and made it faster, so now it's also part of dps rotation

Best to use Rocket Charge after you used 5 on hammer, and shredder gyro, or spare capatitor

your taking shred gyro, throw mine, and blast gyro

You're not listening. First off, Rocket Charge is STILL an incredibly long cast time and can't be used all the time. You say it's "part of the DPS rotation." That is the problem. It shouldn't be. It's a situational skill it shouldn't be necessary to maintain Quickness uptime.

Secondly, I know how the new system works. You don't need to try to explain it to me. I've already explained the problems it has.

And finally, you certainly aren't taking Shredder AND Blast AND Throw Mine. That's just bad.

[wasss.1208]

Just now, Noah Salazar.5430 said:

Thats a point, Roket Charge + field is strong combination, not mentioning thay buffed it's dmg, and made it faster, so now it's also part of dps rotation

Rocket Charge is a DPS downgrade, compared to auto attacking. But you don't have to take my word for it, here is the proof: 

This is currently the highest damaging Hammer build for Engineer, and it doesn't ever press Hammer 3.

Its after cast was reduced by 0.35 seconds a year ago, but it is unaffected by quickness, so we are still looking at a ~ 2 seconds long animation lock, which is not fun to use as a DPS, or as spec, thats fantasy is about going fast.

 

 

1 hour ago, Vandal.5621 said:

What are y'all's thoughts on how to fix this problem?

I like the second and third option, that you presented. I'm on the fence about the first one, since it is objectively an upgrade to people, that want to play support, or want to push their damage.

I would like to add my two ideas to the mix:

 Remove Adaptive Armor. Barely anyone uses this trait. It has no place in support builds, because other options are better, and because you aren't generating barrier on yourself consistently. And for DPS builds, the other options are straight up better again. Replace this trait with the old quickness trait, so people can choose their poison. If they prefer the old methood, where they needed to equip more boon dura gear, and slot their bar full of gyros, they can have that. If they prefer the new one, where they can go for higher DPS numbers, or have a more laid back time supporting, they can go for it.

The other option would be giving us back an old minor trait, that gave us superspeed on blasts. Expand this list with leaps. Then change the grandmaster back, into its old state. Now blasts and leaps give superspeed, because of the minor trait, and with the grandmaster trait, it gives quickness as well. Now add the superspeed on gyros adept trait, and now you can have both the old, and the new playstyle, and you can mix and match your playstyle freely.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

1 minute ago, Vandal.5621 said:

You're not listening. First off, Rocket Charge is STILL an incredibly long cast time and can't be used all the time. You say it's "part of the DPS rotation." That is the problem. It shouldn't be. It's a situational skill it shouldn't be necessary to maintain Quickness uptime.

i think you mistaking somethink, it's optional, not necessary, up your boon duration by 10% from sigil of concetration, and 10% from runes of chronomancer

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And finally, you certainly aren't taking Shredder AND Blast AND Throw Mine. That's just bad.

No it's not, you have aoe stunbreak on blast gyro, Your duo with any alac healer that is not ham

[Vandal.5621]

13 minutes ago, Noah Salazar.5430 said:

i think you mistaking somethink, it's optional, not necessary, up your boon duration by 10% from sigil of concetration, and 10% from runes of chronomancer

Ah yesnm, so do even less damage. 🙄 Scrappers pre-nerf didn't need Diviner's gear to grant Quickness.

 

14 minutes ago, Noah Salazar.5430 said:

No it's not, you have aoe stunbreak on blast gyro

Yes it is. You need to be taking Grenade Kit.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

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Rocket Charge is a DPS downgrade, compared to auto attacking.

first auto is 6k, then 8k, then 11k

Rocket charge is x3 10k, and also clave more targets

your using it after cast of thunderclap and shred gyro to not lose fluidity

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This is currently the highest damaging Hammer build for Engineer, and it doesn't ever press Hammer 3.

On Holosmith you have many more buttons that is better option that Hammer 3, also like i said it's optional

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Yes it is. You need to be taking Grenade Kit.

No you not, you neeed bring might to have healer 25 might more fluid

also adional stun to delete stunbreak

and aoe stunbreak for your team

superspeed

Edited September 12, 2023 by Noah Salazar.5430

[wasss.1208]

40 minutes ago, Noah Salazar.5430 said:

Thats a point, Roket Charge + field is strong combination, not mentioning thay buffed it's dmg, and made it faster, so now it's also part of dps rotation

2 minutes ago, Noah Salazar.5430 said:

also like i said it's optional

Optional

adjective

 

1. available to be chosen but not obligatory.

I'm getting mixed messages here. Part of the DPS rotation means, that you have to press it in order to increase your damage, so it is not optional, it is a must press, when your priority, or rotation gets there. The thing I like about the forum is, that if you write something down, people can check back up on it. And if you edit something, it will flag your post as edited.
 

3 minutes ago, Noah Salazar.5430 said:

On Holosmith you have many more buttons that is better option that Hammer 3, also like i said it's optional

And I was playing quickness DPS Scrapper ever since it was an option. Hammer 3 was never part of the rotation, because it was always a DPS decrease. And even you were correct, that doesn't negate what Vandal, and many other before them was pointing out: Hammer 3 is unfun in a DPS playstyle. This could also be proven by the fact, that the amount of Scrapper logs fell off a cliff, in every instanced content, when the playstyle changed. Obviously, that could be also explained by the fact, that other alternatives rose, but I can toss in my two cents: I stopped playing Scrapper, and moved back to Druid after the change.

(Went back to dig through some older footage, so I could support my claim again:)

Anyways, I'm supporting my claims with actual videos, while you doublespeak, and go back on your word. What we are doing here is anything, but providing constructive feedback, I won't going to waste more time trying to debunk your claims.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

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 Part of the DPS rotation means, that you have to press it in order to increase your damage

Sorry i schold specify better, i was meant as part of the dps rotation of qdps that i quote to

Wanted to point out that Rocked charge got buffed, and racher then empty key, it's fine to use as part of dmg (at qdps), as it got similar outcome of 3 auto attacks

 

I agree that animation lock maybe not be fun for evryone

Edited September 12, 2023 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Gendalfs.7521]

Tnx OP for making this post. Maybe it will reach some Anet ears/eyes.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

Dont worry I'm sure it will reach Anet, whether they'll actually give it some thought or instantly dismiss it is another matter.

 

Now on that matter, I dont exactly want Scrapper to return to the old spam gyro on CD because it indirectly forces you to take 2-3 gyro while right now we can just take Shredder gyro and maintain quickness with function gyro,rocket charge and throw mine. On my OW solo build, I can maintain perma quickness by using FT blast into bomb 2 as well as mace 2 inside the fire field. Sometime I use function gyro to increase my DPS a bit and it's kinda nice to be able to keep perma quickness with basically no gyro only field.

 

Instead I would rather have Anet increase the radius of the quickness generation (there is no reason Herald can share perma quickness within a 600 radius for simply existing while other are stuck at a 360 range while having to either press button on CD or do combo field) and improve rocket charge. It is clear that Anet want us to do rocket charge and I dont exactly mind the slight DPS loss since you're a quickness provider first and DPS second but man is it fun to be locked on an animation and then dying because you only have like 2 sec dodge window on a skill that locks you for 3 sec. I've stopped counting the amount of time I was interrupted in the middle of the casting only to die afterward because I did not had breakstuns....And that just to maintain quickness.  Give back the full duration evade on the skill and allow rocket charge to be interrupted in betweens hit if needed. 

[anbujackson.9564]

What made scrapper so unique was the superspeed in addition to quickness. No one else could do that.

And since we lost that, you are stuck with redundant boons like a bit of might and fury. Both dont have enough uptime, so there is that.

I could see myself playing it with #2. But honestly I would prefer superspeed + quickness instead.

[Dalent.9358]

I was a Scrapper enjoyer mostly because I'm a Hammer fanboy, but once QuickScrap became a thing I was here for it. I enjoyed playing it so much, even though I was pretty bad at it for awhile.

On 9/12/2023 at 10:31 AM, Vandal.5621 said:

So what can ANet do?

1. Revert the change. This is the simplest solution. Clearly Scrappers preferred the old way to the new way. This doesn't fix the problem that the change was designed to fix to begin with, but it would be better than what we have.

2. Expand the types of combos KE gives Quickness for. The big problem is that the new way forces us to play in a very specific way to maintain Quickness uptime, while other specs (like Harbinger) can just ignore the fact that they have to give Quickness and just do their normal rotations, and the Quickness will naturally be applied at 100% uptime. If KE expanded to all combos, Scrappers could do their previous rotation, focusing on dealing damage without wasting their Function Gyro or locking themselves into a Rocket Charge. Allow Scrappers to just do what they want to do, and passively let that generate Quickness.

I'm with you that #1 doesn't solve what the problem they wanted to fix was, and while not the ideal solution would be easiest.

Option #2 though I think could work, except I think comparing to the likes of Quick Harbinger is not a way to go. IMO, any class that 100% passively does a support role like Quickness or Alacrity and just can maintain their DPS rotation needs to be looked at. Sure, they're giving up some DPS and maybe a different utility to provide that, but the Support part should be the primary function and require active engagement.

On 9/12/2023 at 10:31 AM, Vandal.5621 said:

3. Make Quickness granted from another part of the kit, such as Explosions. You want Scrappers to be able to hold onto valuable abilities like Blast Gyro and Function Gyro when they're needed? Then give us a way to maintain Quickness without using important cooldowns (while operating at a DPS loss for the time when you're holding skills). You know what Engineers have access to on-demand? Explosions. We do a lot of them naturally during rotation (Electro-Whirl, Blast Gyro, Grenade Barrage, Shrapnel Grenade, etc.). There's even a whole trait tree for 'em. And we can even, if necessary, spam Grenade (Grenade Kit #1) to get tons of Explosive procs. It's a DPS loss to spam Grenade, but if Explosions granted Quickness, then when we're holding onto our valuable CDs like Grenade Barrage and Blast Gyro for a break bar/burst phase, we can fall back to spamming Grenade to maintain Quickness at the cost of our own personal DPS.

This. I like this. If they moved it to Explosions and Blast finishers, I feel that would be great. I am not very well versed on Heal Scrapper, so it might be harder to maintain there, but it could be a step in the right direction.

[Curennos.9307]

I would prefer something like #3. I don't like that anet is scattering around boons that players can fart out while doing just..whatever. Okay, 100% uptime on regen while auto attacking or something, I don't really care about, to be fair, but stuff like alac and quickness, imo, should have more to applying them than just just existing in combat and changing a trait. I don't expect fully fledged class mechanics dedicated entirely to support, but it'd be nice for support gameplay to be considered instead of tacking everything on to DPS stuff you would already be doing.

They'd have to really examine what has the explosion tag though if that ends up being the pick. Mace AA has it and we've already suffered under mace AA generating alac (via barrier).

[Vandal.5621]

17 hours ago, Curennos.9307 said:

They'd have to really examine what has the explosion tag though if that ends up being the pick. Mace AA has it and we've already suffered under mace AA generating alac (via barrier).

I'd wager the biggest things driving Explosion-driven Quickness would be Electro-Whirl (Hammer 2), Shrapnel Grenade (Grenade Kit 2), and Grenade Barrage (Grenade Kit Toolbelt, which causes 6 Explosions on a 25-second CD). Engineers already have a self-buff that triggers off Explosions (Explosive Temper), so including Explosions as part of your rotation to maintain a buff is already baked in, but it also relies on Kit-swapping, which is part of Engineer's core gameplay features.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Vandal.5621
Spelling error

[Perceptor.7189]

I'm gonna say...none of the above. The change from "quicks on superspeed" to "quicks on blast finisher" it' something i'm enjoyed since was announced. My biggest gripe with the old sistem was the absolute boringness from just casting wells and no been able to use anything else. 

I'm not saying that the new system it's perfect, but, IMHO the focus should be on making Anet change/rework some useless utilities instead. Hell, reducing the CD of Thumper turret and his toolbelt skill on pve should fix like 70% of all the blast finishers problems and making some other changes in other utilities could make the class more fun for new players

[Okhu.7948]

Change is fine. I still get 100% quickness. And I don't have to use Gyros if I don't want to.

[Vandal.5621]

59 minutes ago, Okhu.7948 said:

Change is fine. I still get 100% quickness. And I don't have to use Gyros if I don't want to.

The 75% of Scrappers who have quit the spec disagree. 75% > 25%.

[Okhu.7948]

14 hours ago, Vandal.5621 said:

The 75% of Scrappers who have quit the spec disagree. 75% > 25%.

I don't care that 75% of Scrappers can't adapt to changes.

[Vandal.5621]

6 hours ago, Okhu.7948 said:

I don't care that 75% of Scrappers can't adapt to changes.

That is one of the worst rationalizations I've ever seen.

Just like ANet, you refuse to believe the numbers. Sure, 75% of the specs popularity fell off, sure the popularity of the spec has fallen every single patch since the change. But that means those people are wrong, right? It couldn't possibly he that ANet made a bad design decision, right?

Get your head out of the sand. There is no denying that there IS a problem. We're past that. You are wrong. There IS a problem. The question is how to fix it.

[Jerus.4350]

23 minutes ago, Vandal.5621 said:

That is one of the worst rationalizations I've ever seen.

Just like ANet, you refuse to believe the numbers. Sure, 75% of the specs popularity fell off, sure the popularity of the spec has fallen every single patch since the change. But that means those people are wrong, right? It couldn't possibly he that ANet made a bad design decision, right?

Get your head out of the sand. There is no denying that there IS a problem. We're past that. You are wrong. There IS a problem. The question is how to fix it.

Well, the numbers are far from a good metric, wingman is just the best we have available.  
 

Also we’ve gotten more quickness builds than before.  And, some of the revamped builds (Herald) are pretty good right now.
 

[Vandal.5621]

3 hours ago, Jerus.4350 said:

Well, the numbers are far from a good metric, wingman is just the best we have available

When the numbers are (1) consistent and (2) dramatic, it becomes a pretty good metric. A 75% difference and a consistent decrease in popularity every single patch is pretty clear.