Why not just blanket nerf conditions by changing Condition Duration -> Expertise on Runes?

[Atmaweapon.7345]

Condition duration causes specific runes to be heavily overstatted compared to others. Condition duration +5% and 10% are worth 75 and 150 Expertise respectively, yet tend to come at the 2 and 4 set bonuses which are usually +35 and +65 of any other stat, meaning that they're more than twice as potent. The only place where +10% condition duration is balanced is the 6 set bonus where it's only effectively a 25 stat advantage over any other flat stat.

[Quench.7091]

But it's year 2012! Expertise doesn't exist yet.

[Zebulous.2934]

what about those rune sets that only boost a single condition's duration?  Runes of torment for that +50%.  Then I just run Viper's gear, maybe a giver's equip and I have 100% torment duration and nothing else.  I miss out on power, and other useful stats. My blind, cripple, vulnerability, and confusion are all only at +50% from my Viper's equipment.  There are tradeoffs for focusing on a single condition.  
Of course, if your opponents have several condition cleanses then Condition duration is kinda pointless.

[cat.8975]

Why do conditions need a blanket nerf? Is there a problem?

[Merica Madman.4695]

8 hours ago, cat.8975 said:

Why do conditions need a blanket nerf? Is there a problem?

You mean there's nothing wrong with a ranged DoT getting tossed on you to tick all your health down with no skill involved? When condi was first introduced it was supposed to an extra damage tick that was just additional small damage. Then some genius decided to make it tick big damage. Then as a result of condi big damage & raids they had to introduce healer classes into the game. Add resolution boon as well. If you go into any PVP mode & don't have a form of condi cleanse you're definitely at a disadvantage & a liability. I would be for a global condi cleanse for everyone on dodge roll (meaning you completely cleanse all condi), and increase the power damage slightly of condi abilities affected. This would also allow for more build freedom  without worry of needing condi cleanse.

[Jora.5471]

I am cool with a straight up nerf. However, I think expertise(and to the extension of concentration, and precision) should be replaced away for +% stats so that it is easier to read.

+10% condi duration is easy to read. +10 expertise doesn't tell me anything.

[Astralporing.1957]

23 minutes ago, LordMadman.5812 said:

You mean there's nothing wrong with a ranged DoT getting tossed on you to tick all your health down with no skill involved?

A ranged dot that gets tossed on you and ticks away dealing (pure example) 500 damage total is no different than a ranged power attack that hits you once, dealing the same amount of 500 damage. Except for the part where the latter damage is received all at once, while the former needs some time to tick and can be cleansed before reaching its full potential.

In both cases the damage is delivered using a single attack, and requires pretty much equal "skill".  As a result, there's about as much wrong with conditions being able to deliver big damage as it is with direct power attacks doing the same. There's no difference here.

[cat.8975]

9 hours ago, LordMadman.5812 said:

You mean there's nothing wrong with a ranged DoT getting tossed on you to tick all your health down with no skill involved? When condi was first introduced it was supposed to an extra damage tick that was just additional small damage. Then some genius decided to make it tick big damage. Then as a result of condi big damage & raids they had to introduce healer classes into the game. Add resolution boon as well. If you go into any PVP mode & don't have a form of condi cleanse you're definitely at a disadvantage & a liability. I would be for a global condi cleanse for everyone on dodge roll (meaning you completely cleanse all condi), and increase the power damage slightly of condi abilities affected. This would also allow for more build freedom  without worry of needing condi cleanse.

So the issues people have with conditions are related to their strength in PvP/WvW gamemodes? Isn't condi duration less relevant there due to cleanses? If you wanted to nerf conditions in PvP, you would just reduce the damage/tick instead.

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

9 hours ago, Jora.5471 said:

I am cool with a straight up nerf. However, I think expertise(and to the extension of concentration, and precision) should be replaced away for +% stats so that it is easier to read.

+10% condi duration is easy to read. +10 expertise doesn't tell me anything.

+15 Expertise = 1% condition duration.

You are correct though, why make us do maths when everything feeds into a percentage increase anyway? Just do the maths on the item itself and tell us the result on the tooltip?

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

9 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

A ranged dot that gets tossed on you and ticks away dealing (pure example) 500 damage total is no different than a ranged power attack that hits you once, dealing the same amount of 500 damage. Except for the part where the latter damage is received all at once, while the former needs some time to tick and can be cleansed before reaching its full potential.

In both cases the damage is delivered using a single attack, and requires pretty much equal "skill".  As a result, there's about as much wrong with conditions being able to deliver big damage as it is with direct power attacks doing the same. There's no difference here.

I wonder sometimes if this is a UI issue, since boons and conditions all appear as small often homogenous looking icons that shuffle around as they appear and disappear.

Considering that cleanses are easier to stack up on than blocks, the only way you are punished versus a condition build is that the total condition damage is usually somewhat higher per skill than power damage, though it is applied over a longer duration. Not cleansing a big DoT is the equivalent of face tanking a power build without making any attempt to dodge or block.

Ultimately it's just another facet of combat, why shouldn't you take cleanses into consideration when building your character? If you want to be self sufficient you have to make sacrifices in other areas to achieve the right balance of offense and defence. 

[Merica Madman.4695]

There's a huge difference in condi based damage and power based damage and that difference is cleanse. You have to build a character around cleansing a condition from you or you tick down and die. With power it requires you to get hit. You don't want to take damage against a power build. No problem, don't get hit. But with ranged condi all you have to do is be in range. This is probably also why power rangers are very OP. They can power spike extremely hard at a safe distance and throw some condi on the target. Maybe decreasing the damage output of someone ranged would be a better solution in PVP? If someone is more than 900 units away from someone their damage output is reduced by 10-20% (condi and power). This allows a melee person more time to respond so they can engage. What do we see predominantly dominating zerg balls in WVW? Ranged because they can output AOE damage safely without taking any damage. Right now I play a core block cleanse guardian to support zergs to solve both issues in WVW, and it's extremely effective; more so than FB even.

Edited October 11, 2023 by LordMadman.5812

[Astralporing.1957]

55 minutes ago, LordMadman.5812 said:

There's a huge difference in condi based damage and power based damage and that difference is cleanse. You have to build a character around cleansing a condition from you or you tick down and die.

Or you can just heal through it. More easily in fact that you could heal through power damage. Seriously, the difference between 10k hit from a power or condi skill is that the latter gives you several seconds to cleanse or heal, while the former doesn't.

55 minutes ago, LordMadman.5812 said:

With power it requires you to get hit. You don't want to take damage against a power build. No problem, don't get hit.

It's the same with condi. Don't get hit, and you won't get conditions - they don't magically appear on you. They get applied with attacks - attacks that can be blocked or evaded. Many people just do not seem to notice that, because damage is delayed.

55 minutes ago, LordMadman.5812 said:

But with ranged condi all you have to do is be in range.

And with ranged power "all" you have to do is be in range as well. Attacking at range is in no way tied to the type of damage you inflict.

55 minutes ago, LordMadman.5812 said:

This is probably also why power rangers are very OP. They can power spike extremely hard at a safe distance and throw some condi on the target. Maybe decreasing the damage output of someone ranged would be a better solution in PVP? If someone is more than 900 units away from someone their damage output is reduced by 10-20% (condi and power).  This allows a melee person more time to respond so they can engage. What do we see predominantly dominating zerg balls in WVW? Ranged because they can output AOE damage safely without taking any damage. Right now I play a core block cleanse guardian to support zergs to solve both issues in WVW, and it's extremely effective; more so than FB even.

Now, that makes a bit more sense. In PvP at least, because in PvE there's a ton more considerations  to that (like boon and heal range, which forces melee stacking anyway).

In short, your point seems to not be about condi vs power (which this thread seems to be about), but rather more about melee vs range - and only considered in the scope of PvP environment. As such, it should probably warrant a separate thread.

[Bladestrom.6425]

56 minutes ago, LordMadman.5812 said:

There's a huge difference in condi based damage and power based damage and that difference is cleanse. You have to build a character around cleansing a condition from you or you tick down and die. With power it requires you to get hit. You don't want to take damage against a power build. No problem, don't get hit. But with ranged condi all you have to do is be in range. This is probably also why power rangers are very OP. They can power spike extremely hard at a safe distance and throw some condi on the target. Maybe decreasing the damage output of someone ranged would be a better solution in PVP? If someone is more than 900 units away from someone their damage output is reduced by 10-20% (condi and power). This allows a melee person more time to respond so they can engage. What do we see predominantly dominating zerg balls in WVW? Ranged because they can output AOE damage safely without taking any damage. Right now I play a core block cleanse guardian to support zergs to solve both issues in WVW, and it's extremely effective; more so than FB even.

in WVW ranged will ALLWAYS dominate as it always makes sense to gravitate to non melee for blob v blob. 

melee against condy = removal/vitality/heal/melee pressure

condy against melee its distance and covering conditions (typically low toughness)

Above is fairly balanced, melee gets a hit in then ranged takes massive damage, if they remove the condy then it may do next to no damage.

The only issue with condy is where it can be spammed, thats bad, for e.g tainted bolts.