orc

[Fenom.9457]

I don't think the game NEEDS them, but I also dislike the idea that GW2 needs to avoid classics just because they're classics and this game MUST ALWAYS innovate.  One because some things are classic for a reason and the game need not reinvent the wheel every time, and two because, when this game DOES add "boring" or standard things it just makes them be even more unique. Dwarves, but made of stone! They made a 'bog standard' race different from any other series I know of.  Same goes for game features, GW2 mounts have become a legendary innovation redefining the standard.  So no we don't need orcs or anything but people would do well to recall how the game has handled classic tropes or creatures in the past before shouting no

[Kalavier.1097]

4 hours ago, Fenom.9457 said:

I don't think the game NEEDS them, but I also dislike the idea that GW2 needs to avoid classics just because they're classics and this game MUST ALWAYS innovate.  One because some things are classic for a reason and the game need not reinvent the wheel every time, and two because, when this game DOES add "boring" or standard things it just makes them be even more unique. Dwarves, but made of stone! They made a 'bog standard' race different from any other series I know of.  Same goes for game features, GW2 mounts have become a legendary innovation redefining the standard.  So no we don't need orcs or anything but people would do well to recall how the game has handled classic tropes or creatures in the past before shouting no

I like that Guild wars, even the first game, takes "typical" things and tweaks them slightly.

It helps establish it a little further from the other settings around, which I like. Now I'm not against perhaps more typical things, as we do have a LOT of land-space on Tyria (and underwater) that can be explored and house things.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 10/9/2023 at 2:40 PM, mandala.8507 said:

This community honestly just has a really bad habit of putting the game's races into little boxes and being upset when their stereotypical archetype for each race isn't followed closely enough.

The Charr characters aren't Charr-enough because they have feelings and emotional connections and don't enjoy being victims of an often cruel stratocracy.

The Asura characters aren't Asura-enough also because they have feelings and don't value knowledge and the pursuit of knowledge above all else.

The Norn characters aren't Norn-enough because they too have feelings (I'm starting to see a trend), are affected by people dying in battle, don't inherently love being alone, and don't value their legends over all of their personal relationships. 

The Sylvari...well actually, people are pretty okay about not trying to enforce stereotypes on the Sylvari too harshly, for whatever reason. Probably because they just come across as vegetable-shaped humans. Still happens some of the time, though.

I think it's a bit more acute with the norn for a few reasons:

First, the obvious: norn are, physically, basically big humans. This places more pressure for them to be different in other ways.

Second, one of these other ways was their shapeshifting ability, but this major part of their original concept has been marginalised more and more over time. For PCs, all racial skills are deliberately underpowered, to the point where the norn theme would probably work better nowadays if the transformation skills were simply deleted and were replaced by special, purely cosmetic combat transformations only available to norn. NPC norn that use their transformations, on the other hand, have become fairly rare outside of core content.

Third, norn have been the race that have received the least story. Charr, asura, and sylvari all have fairly strong hooks and have been focused on at significant points of the story. Norn, on the other hand... outside of the start of personal story for norn PCs, the norn have never really had the focus for a major story arc without the charr stealing the spotlight.

Fourth, it does feel as if the norn identity in GW1 has been diluted. I'd argue that it's realistic for that to have happened, but it has nevertheless happened.

The third point is probably the most significant. We've had a fair amount of exposure to asura, charr, sylvari and various Tyrian human cultures, such that those cultures have been fairly well developed and those that diverge from the core culture can be recognised as exactly that... divergences. Norn, though, have never really been given the chance to develop to the same point - we've probably had more screentime over the Eir/Braham family drama than the rest of the norn combined, and however justified you consider Braham's grief and anger at his mother dying might be, grief and anger at a dead parent isn't exactly a uniquely norn trait. Other races can have individual characters that diverge from the script because there are plenty of other characters and events that have established the script for them to diverge from, but in the case of the norn it feels more like the script has been forgotten altogether. It's kinda telling when we can even have an extended debate on how norn children are typically raised - we have a much better idea of that for the other races. You need to have a certain critical mass of exposure to the core cultural norms in order for the exceptions to feel like exceptions rather than it just feeling like the core culture was never established in the first place. There are several nonplayable races that feel like their cultural identity is more strongly expressed than that of the norn.

The first and second point just exacerbate the problem. You could get away with having a relatively weak cultural identity if the physical design is very nonhuman - tengu, for instance, do feel very Asian-with-feathers, which fits their source material, but the 'with feathers' is a significant variance. You can also get away with a race being physically humanlike if there's a strong cultural and/or psychological distinction. The norn were aimed to be the latter, but the distinction hasn't really been established strongly enough. The seeds are there, but when most of the norn you meet seem to be stoic dutiful warrior types that behave much like human stoic dutiful warrior types... the seeds really need to be tended to a bit more. 

[mandala.8507]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Second, one of these other ways was their shapeshifting ability, but this major part of their original concept has been marginalised more and more over time. For PCs, all racial skills are deliberately underpowered, to the point where the norn theme would probably work better nowadays if the transformation skills were simply deleted and were replaced by special, purely cosmetic combat transformations only available to norn. NPC norn that use their transformations, on the other hand, have become fairly rare outside of core content.

Braham's journey to unlocking his transformation by connecting with the Spirits and finding a reason to want it badly enough to actually pull it off was a huge part of the IBS. Norn transformations aren't a given for all Norn. It is a special ability some Norn are able to tap into. We as the player character are given access to this ability because we are very adept in all ways. It is not something that every Norn is expected or likely to achieve in their lifetime.

On top of this, the racial skills are weak for entirely gameplay-related purposes. Very early on in this game's lifespan, it was determined that racial skills mattering was bad for the game, since it would lock certain playstyles to certain race/class setups, and so they are weak by necessity.

So yeah, hard disagree that Norn transformations have been phased out of the story. We literally got Nornbear lore and Braham's spirit journey in IBS, which leaned into this topic very heavily.

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Third, norn have been the race that have received the least story.

I very much disagree with this statement. Asuran culture outside of the Inquest has by far the least dedicated story development. It might seem like Asura are always in the spotlight because of the Inquest randomly popping up in places and because we just happened to have Taimi for a long time in our party, but they are the race given the least depth in almost every aspect of the GW2 story.

Arenanet wouldn't dare put the story spotlight on them either, because it's just too hard to pull off successfully. They make an effort to give us several very strong Asura characters, but the Asura as a race are never the primary focus.

They have ONE zone dedicated primarily to them over the other starting races in core: Metrica Province. Meanwhile the Norn have Wayfarer Foothills, Snowden Drifts, Lornar's Pass, Dredehaunt Cliffs, Timberline Falls, and Frostgorge Sound.

We get some minor look-ins at their ancient presence on Tyria's surface occasionally in core, and admittedly the Rata Novus stuff was a good attempt at making the Asura relevant, but again, they are almost never the primary focus and we have yet to have a story centered around them as a people.

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Fourth, it does feel as if the norn identity in GW1 has been diluted. I'd argue that it's realistic for that to have happened, but it has nevertheless happened.

When a race goes from non-playable to playable for a game where your racial selection is not supposed to greatly impact gameplay, there have to be concessions made. Also, refer to my first sentence:

"This community honestly just has a really bad habit of putting the game's races into little boxes and being upset when their stereotypical archetype for each race isn't followed closely enough."

The identity wasn't diluted, it was expanded. The Norn identity was hardly even established in GW1. We interacted with, like, 10 of them.

[Kalavier.1097]

49 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

"This community honestly just has a really bad habit of putting the game's races into little boxes and being upset when their stereotypical archetype for each race isn't followed closely enough."

The identity wasn't diluted, it was expanded. The Norn identity was hardly even established in GW1. We interacted with, like, 10 of them.

And a lot of people simply take a few examples as hard showings of the entire race. "This moot is crazy, so many drunk and partying people!" being used to erase all other examples of characters. Like using Braham at IBS prologue getting blackout drunk being used (Not much, but I've seen it done) to make him sound like some college frat bro who drinks and does nothing else, while ignoring that most of his story isn't around parties. We got expanded information and people latched onto a bit of the new and made that all that mattered in their eyes.

5 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Second, one of these other ways was their shapeshifting ability, but this major part of their original concept has been marginalised more and more over time. For PCs, all racial skills are deliberately underpowered, to the point where the norn theme would probably work better nowadays if the transformation skills were simply deleted and were replaced by special, purely cosmetic combat transformations only available to norn. NPC norn that use their transformations, on the other hand, have become fairly rare outside of core content.

 

I mean, that's part of the gameplay balance vs the lore. If you actively acknowledge that as a thing you can see how aspects are tweaked purely for gameplay, such as why Norn can't simply yeet any Charr or smaller foe they see with brute strength in every single fight, or why Asura can actually keep up with a Norn walking.

When the goal is to make everybody able to contribute, regardless of class or race, some elements are going to be tweaked and made a smaller focus for gameplay.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 10/9/2023 at 9:49 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

Completely and totally ignoring the key factor.

Those children's parents are still heavily involved in their lives, they are being cared for by another as the others go HUNTING. Knut's wife is off on adventure and it's noted that she has severe wanderlust far beyond her desire to stay in a lodge, which is why she goes on long adventures. Not hunts, adventures. It's also specified that detail with her leaving her sons for knut to raise. The examples you give aren't "Go off and do their adventure for many years at a time" but "They are out hunting to provide for their kids."

I think you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree that being away to build your legend for years is "still heavily involved in their lives". Yes, some are just out hunting for the day or whatever their day job would be. But some are off on adventures like Gearta.

On 10/9/2023 at 9:49 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

Again, you are completely ignoring the fact Braham ISN'T THINKING CLEARLY.

He wasn't thinking clearly for a full YEAR? And need I point out - again - that Braham was thinking very clearly at the end of Heart of Thorns, when he talked about having avenged Eir by killing Mordremoth, and the death of Eir was freshest?

Did he only lose his brain power after a few months passed or something?

On 10/9/2023 at 9:49 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

Again completely ignoring how the Commander delayed going, and then Eir died.

And again I think we're going to have to agree to disagree that "go ahead but don't act rashly" is the same as "don't go ahead, don't act at all until I give the say so"

Because you're treating them as the same, and to me they very clearly aren't. The Commander delayed all of five minutes max. Not weeks or even days.

On 10/9/2023 at 12:40 AM, mandala.8507 said:

This community honestly just has a really bad habit of putting the game's races into little boxes and being upset when their stereotypical archetype for each race isn't followed closely enough.

The Charr characters aren't Charr-enough because they have feelings and emotional connections and don't enjoy being victims of an often cruel stratocracy.

The Asura characters aren't Asura-enough also because they have feelings and don't value knowledge and the pursuit of knowledge above all else.

The Norn characters aren't Norn-enough because they too have feelings (I'm starting to see a trend), are affected by people dying in battle, don't inherently love being alone, and don't value their legends over all of their personal relationships. 

-snip-

Being influenced by your racial origins and culture: good. Being limited only to the stereotypes associated with your racial origins and culture: bad.

I, for one, am not saying norn, charr, etc. shouldn't have feelings. Every animal has emotions and can express them in their own ways. But their biology and cultures that they grew up in would result in the vast majority (and this should be held true for the iconic main cast since they're the prime example players would be exposed to) would express those feelings and emotions.

Nature vs. nurture. And both have influence. So to have them acting like seen commonly in modern American media is jarring.

And the nurture we see of norn expressing grief isn't going on a whining self-destructive uncaring for friends' feelings manner like your typical American movie teenager, but by vocalizing the deceased's story and expressing how they lived.

Rytlock acted more like a typical norn during Eir's memorial than Braham did. And yes, Braham should function like a typical norn for the Doylist reason of him being the main example players get exposed to of norn - especially with Eir dying.

  

13 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I mean, that's part of the gameplay balance vs the lore. If you actively acknowledge that as a thing you can see how aspects are tweaked purely for gameplay, such as why Norn can't simply yeet any Charr or smaller foe they see with brute strength in every single fight, or why Asura can actually keep up with a Norn walking.

When the goal is to make everybody able to contribute, regardless of class or race, some elements are going to be tweaked and made a smaller focus for gameplay.

The "tweaking for gameplay" really only needs to exist for the PCs. NPCs can have as much free range as desired by the devs / mandated by lore, if they so choose.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

Braham's journey to unlocking his transformation by connecting with the Spirits and finding a reason to want it badly enough to actually pull it off was a huge part of the IBS. Norn transformations aren't a given for all Norn. It is a special ability some Norn are able to tap into. We as the player character are given access to this ability because we are very adept in all ways. It is not something that every Norn is expected or likely to achieve in their lifetime.

In GW1, Jora is mocked as not being a true norn because she lost the ability to Become the Bear after Svanir became the nornbear and she was "cursed" (by Drakkar/Jormag).

Until IBS, there was never once even implied a "proof of worth" to use the shapeshifting ability. Everyone could do it by all indication - even a nobody who hadn't earned a legend like Gyda Oddsdottir.

It very much was something that every norn was expected or likely to achieve in their lifetime.

Olaf Olafson: Looks like Jora has recruited help in her hunt. Not very norn of you, Jora, letting humans bail you out...

Sif Shadowhunter: There is nothing wrong in accepting help...especially if one cannot become the bear. Come, Olaf. Leave her to her challenge.

(Sif and Olaf use Bear Form and leave for Boreal Station.)

Jora: Olaf and Sif are both right. I thank you for your help, but this is my hunt...my responsibility. Go your own way, human. Go to the north. You will find your kind there.

This is our very first interaction with norn in GW1. And it sets up the precedence that being unable to become the bear (or another animal form) makes them "not very norn". Same with accepting help, but that part lessened by GW2's time due to the rise of Jormag and the need of actually working together to survive.

[draxynnic.3719]

16 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Braham's journey to unlocking his transformation by connecting with the Spirits and finding a reason to want it badly enough to actually pull it off was a huge part of the IBS. Norn transformations aren't a given for all Norn. It is a special ability some Norn are able to tap into. We as the player character are given access to this ability because we are very adept in all ways. It is not something that every Norn is expected or likely to achieve in their lifetime.

As Konig pointed out, the indication in the past was that transformations were expected for any norn that reached a certain age as long as they remained in good standing with the spirits. Jora not being able to do it was regarded as being cursed. It's a strong enough part of their identity that some koda regard norn as being kodan who were cursed with only being able to remain in their "true" form for short periods. It's been a while since I played IBS, but I recall Braham having a bit of angst about not being able to transform yet, which you wouldn't expect if it was a rare ability. 

16 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

On top of this, the racial skills are weak for entirely gameplay-related purposes. Very early on in this game's lifespan, it was determined that racial skills mattering was bad for the game, since it would lock certain playstyles to certain race/class setups, and so they are weak by necessity.

Oh, I know (and agree with) exactly why they've done it. That doesn't change it from having unfortunate side effects, though. It also doesn't stop them from having more NPC norn transforming, so that at least the NPCs are clearly distinguishable from being large humans.

16 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

I very much disagree with this statement. Asuran culture outside of the Inquest has by far the least dedicated story development. It might seem like Asura are always in the spotlight because of the Inquest randomly popping up in places and because we just happened to have Taimi for a long time in our party, but they are the race given the least depth in almost every aspect of the GW2 story.

Arenanet wouldn't dare put the story spotlight on them either, because it's just too hard to pull off successfully. They make an effort to give us several very strong Asura characters, but the Asura as a race are never the primary focus.

They have ONE zone dedicated primarily to them over the other starting races in core: Metrica Province. Meanwhile the Norn have Wayfarer Foothills, Snowden Drifts, Lornar's Pass, Dredehaunt Cliffs, Timberline Falls, and Frostgorge Sound.

We get some minor look-ins at their ancient presence on Tyria's surface occasionally in core, and admittedly the Rata Novus stuff was a good attempt at making the Asura relevant, but again, they are almost never the primary focus and we have yet to have a story centered around them as a people.

You're so wrong here that it's not even close.

First, if you're going to claim that the Inquest don't count as asura culture because they're an 'enemy faction' not representative of the whole, then the same applies to the Svanir. More so, in fact, since the Inquest are a natural evolution of the worst aspects of asura culture, while the Sons of Svanir required outside interference to exist in their current form (even if said outside interference exploited negative aspects of norn culture). So, based on that, neither will count unless they're directly fighting norn or asura.

Regarding core non-Arah maps (those will get special mention), there are more Shiverpeaks maps, but Metrica Province is basically all asura (and there is some asura presence in other maps too, especially Brisban Wildlands). Norn, however, are fairly thinly spread outside of the southern part of Wayfarer Foothills. Most of the Shiverpeaks, you're helping other races like the kodan and arctic quaggan, interracial organisations like the Lionguard or Priory, an asuran presence in Timberline Falls, and so on.

Arah and the associated story is filled with asura stuff. The cathedrals are shut down, not through some human reconsecration ritual, but by asura blocking devices. You see megalasers and golem-launching cannons. Depending on your choices, you may have an instance where you pilot a golem. It's asura weapons tech that brings Zhaitan down. For norn, there are a few norn characters (but not as many as there are asura characters, at least not that I noticed), and the magic map that's one of the ways you can locate the Source.

For season 1, the cut-down version we have now doesn't tell the full story. Norn shared the spotlight with the charr with Flame and Frost, but what's been missed is that the Consortium that was responsible for most of the karka issues are an asuran-run multiracial organisation, and pretty much every holiday-related issue involved or was solved by asura tech in some fashion up until the Nightmare Tower. You can still see bits of this in what's currently available - the Tassi Box is used by Marjory to implicate Mai Trin (Tassi is an asura who for some reason was dealing with the Mad King and the Bloody Prince despite this being something from human history, because back then basically everything was being solved by asura tech), and it's an asura that gets you into the Queen's Pavilion after Scarlet hijacks it. Heck, even Tyrian Santa ended up as an asura, despite ArenaNet later acknowledging that Wintersday was more of a human holiday.

For season 2, the norn get a brief excursion to do an open world event that was revamped (the allies in the event are Pact, but the PC is there because that was the price for getting the norn to the council). Asura get a whole subplot involving the waypoints and how the asura treat prodigies and the intellectual property of prodigies. We also see one of the initial conflicts between sylvari and (non-Inquest) asura researchers.

Heart of Thorns is mostly a sylvari focus, but ArenaNet made time to introduce Rata Novus. For the norn, we just had Eir getting fridged to set the stage for Braham's drama.

Season 3 started with Eir's funeral, but after that, following the principle you introduced of enemy factions not counting, that was basically all we had of the norn outside of Braham's drama. Episode 3 was more about quaggan and kodan than norn, and the scroll Braham searched for, while inspired by Asgeir, was of jotun origin. Meanwhile, for the asura, we have the continuation of threads from season 2 and HoT as Taimi attempts to protect her discoveries despite Phlunt taking over the Rata Novus site, an asuran expedition into the Ring of Fire to investigate Primordus, and discover the final fate of Zinn.

Path of Fire places both on the backburner and focuses on human-related stuff.

Season 4 provides further development of the concept of asura-golem integration, and asura tech is used to get to Gandara and to track Kralkatorrik. It's relatively minor, but it's more than the norn get (namely, a bit more Braham drama and that's it).

Icebrood Saga is probably the biggest drop of norn stuff since the early norn personal story, with the Spirits of the Wild, the revelation about Asgeir, and the norn reaction to Braham 'breaking his oath' playing major roles. But they're still overshadowed by the charr civil war, and we don't see a significant norn presence outside of the multiracial Vigil, with the aforementioned Vigil and kodan representing most of our allies until we get to the charr and Seraph in Drizzlewood. Afterwards, the asura work their way in, allying quickly with Jormag against Primordus and unwittingly giving Jormag the idea to build up their power through the Frozen.

EoD is, again, very human, but the post-release Gyala Delves stuff does involve some glimpses into asura academia.

And now, SotO has Frode - who could be basically anything other than sylvari or charr without it changing his story - while Zojja and her treatment by the asura during her recovery was a major part of the plot.

Tallied up, we've had an overwhelmingly greater amount of asura spotlight and lore over the occasional scraps that have been thrown to the norn.

16 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

When a race goes from non-playable to playable for a game where your racial selection is not supposed to greatly impact gameplay, there have to be concessions made. Also, refer to my first sentence:

"This community honestly just has a really bad habit of putting the game's races into little boxes and being upset when their stereotypical archetype for each race isn't followed closely enough."

The identity wasn't diluted, it was expanded. The Norn identity was hardly even established in GW1. We interacted with, like, 10 of them.

The problem is that the norn identity has still been hardly established a decade into GW2. Outside of the early personal story for norn characters, there's been no time at which the norn had a primary focus - just a couple of periods where they had a secondary focus behind the charr. Charr, asura, and sylvari have distinct physical and cultural differences that mark them as being clearly different to humans. Norn don't. You might call it "expanded" rather than "diluted", but the net effect is that the aspects of the norn that might otherwise have marked them as being different to human have been deprioritised or even outright forgotten so much that they don't really feel much different to humans that have a frontier spirit and a different religion. If the norn had received as much spotlight as the other races, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion, but the sad truth is that I could do the comparison I just did with asura with any of the other playable races and the norn would lose every time, and possibly to some unplayable races as well. I think there was some intention to have more focus on the norn in the second half of Icebrood Saga after the charr civil war was over, but when that was truncated what we were left with was an Icebrood Saga that focused more on the charr than the norn.

Edited October 11, 2023 by draxynnic.3719

[mandala.8507]

43 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You're so wrong here that it's not even close.

I'm not, but okay.

I didn't mention the Inquest in an attempt to suggest that "enemy factions don't count". I mentioned them because they do pretty much nothing to develop the narrative around the Asura as a people despite how often they show up.

Same with most of the Asuran characters.

Same with the Asuran tech.

They don't tell us anything about the Asura we didn't already know.

When we do learn more about Asuran culture, such as with Scarlet's interactions with them in season 1 and Caithe's in season 2, it's mostly just to reaffirm their supremacist attitudes and lack of ethics, which we understand plenty well from our time with them through levels 1-30 in the Asuran personal story.

In stark contrast, the Sons of Svanir push the narrative of the Norn forward pretty much every time we see them. Every Norn area through core pushes the narrative of the Norn forward, and the writers haven't been afraid to allow the story of the Norn as a people to progress whenever any aspect of their culture is brought up in the story (especially in the open world).

Your opinion that the Norn are the least developed seems to be rooted in preconceptions derived from purely superficial gripes with their similarity in appearance to humans.

A fun exercise you can do, since you don't believe me:

• Map out the Norn culture and histories (NOT their superficial prevalence), then do the same for the Asura, and see which is meatier. Then compare how much we have learned about each since launch. I think you'd be surprised how sparse and skin-deep Asura culture and history truly is.
• (The length of the wiki pages for each race already prove this point pretty well, imo, but feel free to do your own research)

Almost everything important about them you can learn from simply watching their race cinematic when you start the game, with the exception of like 2 hours worth of story in Heart of Thorns and Draconis Mons.

They're a nothing-burger of a race outside of their tech, which is why so many players blew a gasket when Canthan Jade Tech intruded upon their monopoly on magitechnological prowess in Tyria.

And I don't say this because I don't like the Asura. I say this because I think there is still plenty of story telling to do about them and the finer details of their origins, histories, culture, and role on Tyria post-Elder Dragons. The same can't be said of the Norn, who are ultimately fleshed out to my satisfaction.

I don't wonder about the Norn.

I have infinite questions about the Asura.

[Kalavier.1097]

19 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I think you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree that being away to build your legend for years is "still heavily involved in their lives". Yes, some are just out hunting for the day or whatever their day job would be. But some are off on adventures like Gearta.

Besides the fact the other ones listed don't talk about being away for adventures for years. Gearta is literally described as having wanderlust so bad that she cannot stand sitting in a lodge, and even was in Hoelbrek before the Great Hunt, but left shortly before it happened (And the one talking about her says she feels similar about crowds and would be slipping away come nightfall).

I never said Gearta is heavily involved in their lives, that was about all these other groups you listed. Those people are involved in their lives and return home after hunting to provide for their family. This is unlike Eir and Braham, who Eir left and Braham didn't even know her name until his father died, with the explicitly dying wish that Eir not be informed of his death at all. The wiki claims "This is normal" about Eir and Borje, but the story mentioned doesn't really say that. Eir herself had many talks with Borje about her leaving him with Braham which also implies that it wasn't exactly normal. Eir had so little part in Braham's life that all he knew of her before his father died was "She was of snowy complexion." and her closest friends and allies (even Knut) never knew she had a son.

19 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

He wasn't thinking clearly for a full YEAR? And need I point out - again - that Braham was thinking very clearly at the end of Heart of Thorns, when he talked about having avenged Eir by killing Mordremoth, and the death of Eir was freshest?

Did he only lose his brain power after a few months passed or something?

You know there is such a thing as the adrenaline/constant fighting for 43 days finally coming to an end and Braham left alone as everybody else goes home, causing him to be stuck in his thoughts? Also that he's already on edge because of a sudden Svanir ambush caused by the Commander?

Let me tell you something, I had a gun pointed at my face and the store I worked at robbed. After the police took my statement, they brought me in several days later, as I may remember more details as time goes on and I can actually think about it clearly without Adrenaline and shock clouding my thoughts/reactions. Braham has had a year to think about what happened and stew on it, and he didn't have friends or family around him to help as we all scattered to our own homes or wanders.

19 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And again I think we're going to have to agree to disagree that "go ahead but don't act rashly" is the same as "don't go ahead, don't act at all until I give the say so"

Because you're treating them as the same, and to me they very clearly aren't. The Commander delayed all of five minutes max. Not weeks or even days.

 

And you are explicitly and entirely lying here, as the Commander delayed far more then "five minutes". The commander had to go to the Itzel village, then defend it/counter attack the Mordrem, then had to rely on the Hylek scouts heavily to even catch up and find out where Braham and Rytlock was. I will remind you again that Heart of Thorns canonically lasted 43 entire days, and Eir had been starving in her cell for days by that point.  So yes, it's much more likely in straight up factual sense that they delayed, even if it's one day or a few.

And you are again, ignoring that Braham explicitly lashed out against the commander with the phrase "Every moment we wait, another Mother dies. I won't let Jormag live another day, I won't give it minutes!" Yes, it's irrational. Yes it's not true that the Commander's brief pause caused Eir's death. But that is what Braham has linked in his time alone, wandering and pondering. He linked that pause to her death, and the commander as the one who didn't want to charge ahead and immediately go after her.  His phrasing makes it clear and explicit.

 

19 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Rytlock acted more like a typical norn during Eir's memorial than Braham did. And yes, Braham should function like a typical norn for the Doylist reason of him being the main example players get exposed to of norn - especially with Eir dying.

Ah yes, Rytlock, our Charr companion who doesn't act like a Charr should by tearing up orders from Black Citadel constantly until they literally threaten violence against him to bring him home. Or Rox, the outcast who leaves the legions entirely to go to Olmakhan.

Or Taimi, our Asura example of the team who treats everybody else as capable of understanding the concepts she speaks of and doesn't treat everybody else as a stupid hunk of muscle to use.

Or Canach, the grumpy, sarcastic Sylvari with a chip on his shoulder.

Dragon's Watch was hardly "Typical" of the races if you really want to dig in and make that complaint against Braham.

Though again, Braham knew Eir's story would be told by her friends who actually knew her, unlike him. And he was probably not wanting to be fielding the questions about what happened in the Jungle, like the disposal of Eir's body (which was a question jabbed at the Commander during the Memorial).

[DanAlcedo.3281]

On 10/10/2023 at 5:39 AM, Fenom.9457 said:

I don't think the game NEEDS them, but I also dislike the idea that GW2 needs to avoid classics just because they're classics and this game MUST ALWAYS innovate.  One because some things are classic for a reason and the game need not reinvent the wheel every time, and two because, when this game DOES add "boring" or standard things it just makes them be even more unique. Dwarves, but made of stone! They made a 'bog standard' race different from any other series I know of.  Same goes for game features, GW2 mounts have become a legendary innovation redefining the standard.  So no we don't need orcs or anything but people would do well to recall how the game has handled classic tropes or creatures in the past before shouting no

Isn't it kinda strange, that when a topic like this comes up, it always "Put WoW stuff in GW2"? 

I know orcs aren't a Wow original, we all know what they mean. 

Always Blizzard players that have to venture out of the blizzard bubble for the first time in their life, now that all Blizzard games are hot trash. 

They feel lost outside their natural habitat, so they try to change the new games they play to be more like Blizzard games. 

It's like they have only ever eaten McDonald's, so when they get to eat other food, they ask to make it taste more like McDonald's. 

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

2 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Isn't it kinda strange, that when a topic like this comes up, it always "Put WoW stuff in GW2"? 

I know orcs aren't a Wow original, we all know what they mean. 

It's not that strange imo because

1. Warcraft is easily arguably the biggest high fantasy RPG video game franchise out there. Double so for high fantasy MMORPGs and WoW where the only true competitor is pretty much FFXIV, which isn't really a high fantasy game.
2. ArenaNet stems from Blizzard, with its three founders being literal former Blizzard employees.

This will naturally create a lot of room for paralleling. So to me it makes a lot of sense to see the constant comparisons being made - in either requests or opposition to change.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

17 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Are you saying Norn and Charr are emotionally comparable to animals? And that you think that any main cast of other races we encounter should be stereotypes on purpose?

No on both accounts, re-read my post if you honestly want discussion.

35 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

And you are explicitly and entirely lying here, as the Commander delayed far more then "five minutes". The commander had to go to the Itzel village, then defend it/counter attack the Mordrem, then had to rely on the Hylek scouts heavily to even catch up and find out where Braham and Rytlock was. I will remind you again that Heart of Thorns canonically lasted 43 entire days, and Eir had been starving in her cell for days by that point.  So yes, it's much more likely in straight up factual sense that they delayed, even if it's one day or a few.

Everything you just described happened AFTER he sent Braham out, not before.
The order of events was:

• Braham wanted to look forward. Commander said let's talk to these hylek first.
• They talked to Ibli and Tizlak.
• Braham says he wanted to go. Rytlock backed him up.
• Commander let them go but said not to be reckless while they get the lay of the land from the hylek.
• Commander went to Itzel vision, defended it, then relied on hylek scouts to find Eir.
• Braham and Commander caught up to the prison camp at the same time.

So yes, the Commander delayed 5 minutes to have that initial talk with Ibli and Tizlak. If the Commander went with Braham when Braham and Rytlock left, there would have been zero time gained. And that 5 minutes to talk to Ibli and Tizlak would have done nothing for saving Eir. And even a grieving Braham ought to know that with a full year to think it through.

  

35 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Dragon's Watch was hardly "Typical" of the races if you really want to dig in and make that complaint against Braham.

I would argue that Kasmeer and Marjory are both sides of the coin that describes humanity, where one side is faithful and nobility, and the other side is lacking faith and capable of adapting to new situations... usually. Logan is a weird middle ground there, in that he's faithful and noble but gets down and dirty, showing his capability of adapting to new situations much more.

Rox pretty well fits charr society until they wrote her off and being fascinated in losing the warband system out of nowhere. Rytlock is intentionally the antithesis of charr society, and is vocally so, which in turn reflects charr society perfectly because it's basically "charr are what he isn't".

Caithe and Canach also fit the two sides of the coin that describe sylvari culture - one being a reverence for elders and the other being disillusion by it - at least until IBS and EoD made Caithe suddenly disillusioned with sylvari society for no real reason.

And I would indeed say Taimi is indeed a show of asura culture, as she's focused on intellectual accomplishments (especially her own - remember her acting out in Season 2 because Phlunt wanted to take credit for her work and how she loved being in charge of her own team and being recognized for her smarts in season 3?). She's just not reflecting the condescending side of it, which Zojja did before SotO.

Eir reflects norn society well, too. Fights for legends (her father's, primarily), turns her depression into a tool for fighting without putting others at risk (doesn't even take Garm with her to Honor of the Waves where she planned to die fighting), but isn't a dumb drunkard but a strategist. The only thing that is norn that she lacks is the GW1 side of norn society - the lone warrior bit - which was canonically dropped because of Jormag forcing them to unite to survive.

Braham... doesn't really reflect anything norn but "the pack" side of being a Wolf follower. Well there is him being smart but thinking in hunting terms in S1, but this was dropped with HoT and he got turned into a big dummy who gets prideful over being able to spell epidemic and getting drunk all the time... so I guess he reflects that stereotype (which isn't even actually true most of the time).

Edited October 11, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

In stark contrast, the Sons of Svanir push the narrative of the Norn forward pretty much every time we see them. Every Norn area through core pushes the narrative of the Norn forward, and the writers haven't been afraid to allow the story of the Norn as a people to progress whenever any aspect of their culture is brought up in the story (especially in the open world).

Eh... No, they don't. Most appearances of the Sons of Svanir are just them being misogynists causing trouble in various ways, much like you seem to be implying that the Inquest are just being evil scientists causing trouble in various ways. Most norn areas are "this homestead needs help with something" - some of which do develop the norn a bit, but the same is true of the various asura labs and installations, but it's a bit of a stretch to claim that "every norn area pushes the narrative of the norn forward". Once you get out of southern Wayfarer Foothills, most norn homesteads aren't pushing a narrative, certainly not any more than any other race gets. I also don't see much progress ingame: learning that they needed to have some degree of organisation (the Wolfborn) happened beforehand, we had the theory proposed that the thing with the Fang was just a trick to stop hunters from going after Jormag just prior to Braham shooting the tooth and stirring up excitement, and then in IBS we had the theory confirmed (Asgeir received the Fang as a peace offering... of sorts...) and a bit of development regarding the Spirits that were really more about the Spirits themselves than the norn.

5 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Your opinion that the Norn are the least developed seems to be rooted in preconceptions derived from purely superficial gripes with their similarity in appearance to humans.

A fun exercise you can do, since you don't believe me:

• Map out the Norn culture and histories (NOT their superficial prevalence), then do the same for the Asura, and see which is meatier. Then compare how much we have learned about each since launch. I think you'd be surprised how sparse and skin-deep Asura culture and history truly is.
• (The length of the wiki pages for each race already prove this point pretty well, imo, but feel free to do your own research)

Almost everything important about them you can learn from simply watching their race cinematic when you start the game, with the exception of like 2 hours worth of story in Heart of Thorns and Draconis Mons.

They're a nothing-burger of a race outside of their tech, which is why so many players blew a gasket when Canthan Jade Tech intruded upon their monopoly on magitechnological prowess in Tyria.

And I don't say this because I don't like the Asura. I say this because I think there is still plenty of story telling to do about them and the finer details of their origins, histories, culture, and role on Tyria post-Elder Dragons. The same can't be said of the Norn, who are ultimately fleshed out to my satisfaction.

I don't wonder about the Norn.

I have infinite questions about the Asura.

Sure. Historically, we know that prior to GW1 they mostly lived underground, and had a powerful technomagical society even then. It's an open question whether it was more or less powerful - they lost enough when their cities were destroyed that they don't know for sure just how much was lost, and in two and a half centuries of further development and interaction with other races, it's possible that they've developed past what the underground cities had. However, there is evidence that they were present on the surface before that. They assisted in the fight against the Destroyers in GW1, as did the norn, followed by Zinn's various exploits. Rata Sum became their main settlement afterwards, although Zinn tried to found new cities underground, leading to disaster both times (and his death the second time around). The asura of Rata Sum became progressively more organised, with the founding of the Arcane Council and the colleges, and some krewes growing into major operations such as the Inquest, Consortium, and Peacemakers, although small krewes continued to be the main cultural unit. They continued to have problems with destroyers, in addition to more mundane threats like skritt (which were a pest for them underground and followed them to the surface) and the natives of the regions they settled in. More recently, there was the Thaumanova explosion. The Arcane Council has been largely keeping out of the battles against the dragons, believing that if they lie low they'll figure out their own way to survive, but Phlunt persuaded them to get involved against Mordremoth due to the threat Mordremoth posed to them and the waypoint network (and in exchange for a solution, at least temporarily, to the latter), and relatively enthusiastically allying with Jormag against the common enemy of Primordus.

It's noteworthy that some Inquest activity is directly tied to the goals of the Council - which isn't surprising since they have at least one representative.

Culturally, asura have something similar to a nuclear family, but their equivalent of marriage is a kind of contract that is not expected to be for life. Asura children have communal schooling (we encounter one such school in Metrica Province), with a high focus on magical science in the curriculum. At some age they transfer to the colleges, most staying in one college but switching does appear to be possible. Inventions of students belong to their institutions, at least until graduation. On graduation, most asura either join a krewe (or larger organisation) or seek to start up their own krewe, although some do acquire the resources to go it alone. Most asura are incredibly jealous of their inventions, to the point where many discoveries have been lost because the discoverer died without passing it in - some organisations seek to prevent this, albeit not always with honourable motives or methods. Most of the "grunt work" is done by golems, with asura not suited to the academic/entrepreneurial lifestyle seeming to typically join the Peacemakers or a multiracial organisation.

I've thought about the equivalent for the norn, but because I don't have infinite time, I'll leave that to the person claiming that the norn have oh-so-much lore behind them. But I will make a few comments. You try to claim the length of the wiki articles as evidence, but a big part of that difference is that the norn have a religion and that religion gives them powers they can draw on, while the asura belief is that if they work hard enough they can understand the universe. The rest is probably more than accounted for by the people who wrote the norn article doing a better job at trying to include everything than the people who wrote the asura article. You raise history, but there's basically two-three events of equal significance to what I listed above for the asura between the games (the drive south and founding of Hoelbrak and the formation of the Sons of Svanir) and before GW1, the norn are... about as much of a black box as the asura. We have two origin stories for the norn, neither of which come from the norn, both of which glorify the race that the story came from, and both of which are suspect (but they contribute to fluffing out that wiki article). Braham recognised a location as being where the spirits first made contact with the norn (that location being in Drizzlewood might actually imply that the norn might have been migrating from the west, in contradiction to both stories), but we don't have much else from the norn pre-GW1. The norn heroes we hear about are from GW1 or the period in between, heroes from before that are buried deep (I have a vague memory that there might be some mentions in GW1, but I don't recall them off the top of my head). Now, asura history has an excuse to be only known in very broad strokes prior to GW1: the records were lost, and the majority of the population was wiped out. Norn, however, make building and spreading legends a touchstone of their culture - each family should have an oral history going back to the first member of the family to establish a legend, possibly becoming more embellished and fanciful over time as it drifts from being family history to family myth, because one thing that has been established is that it's incredibly disrespectful, to the point of being worth killing over, to allow the legend of a family member to be forgotten. Those legends should be there, but we've pretty much never heard them.

And again, like it or not, the more similar a race is to humans physically, the more distinct they need to be culturally and psychologically. Elves are the ur-example of this: properties that use elves need to go to great lengths to establish that while elves might look very similar to humans, they are spiritually, mentally, socially and emotionally very different. Properties that have elves and fail to pull that off tend to draw criticism about elves feeling like they're just idealised humans. Norn are physically almost identical to humans, so they need either a really strong hook to establish the difference right away, or for players to be immersed deeply enough in it for more subtle differences to add up. The started out with a strong hook - individualism, shapeshifting, obsession with legend - but that hook has been blunted, and we haven't had the immersion to make up for that. Every time it's looked like the norn were going to get that spotlight, the spotlight was turned onto someone else instead, usually the charr or kodan.

Edited October 11, 2023 by draxynnic.3719

[Kalavier.1097]

45 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Everything you just described happened AFTER he sent Braham out, not before.
The order of events was:

• Braham wanted to look forward. Commander said let's talk to these hylek first.
• They talked to Ibli and Tizlak.
• Braham says he wanted to go. Rytlock backed him up.
• Commander let them go but said not to be reckless while they get the lay of the land from the hylek.
• Commander went to Itzel vision, defended it, then relied on hylek scouts to find Eir.
• Braham and Commander caught up to the prison camp at the same time.

So yes, the Commander delayed 5 minutes to have that initial talk with Ibli and Tizlak. If the Commander went with Braham when Braham and Rytlock left, there would have been zero time gained. And that 5 minutes to talk to Ibli and Tizlak would have done nothing for saving Eir. And even a grieving Braham ought to know that with a full year to think it through.

Acting again, as if the entire first act events take place all within a single day. We know factually they did not, and Eir had been prisoner for many days, starved of food after attacking the guards and allowing some people to escape.

Again, Braham wants them all to immediately go for the prisoners. Commander does not. Commander lets Braham and Rytlock go out as scouts, and then goes to the village. That is a delay. That is time spent that was not going to the prison camp.

That is why Braham lashes out about being told to wait, even a few days. He is stuck wondering if they had ignored the Hylek and gone straight for Eir, would she still be alive as opposed to weakened after spending days starved of food.

Again. This is not something that is true that it would've saved Eir. But that doesn't change the feelings and grief and the "What ifs" plaguing Braham. 

[mandala.8507]

23 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I, for one, am not saying norn, charr, etc. shouldn't have feelings. Every animal has emotions and can express them in their own ways. But their biology and cultures that they grew up in would result in the vast majority (and this should be held true for the iconic main cast since they're the prime example players would be exposed to) would express those feelings and emotions.

Nature vs. nurture. And both have influence. So to have them acting like seen commonly in modern American media is jarring.

And the nurture we see of norn expressing grief isn't going on a whining self-destructive uncaring for friends' feelings manner like your typical American movie teenager, but by vocalizing the deceased's story and expressing how they lived.

Rytlock acted more like a typical norn during Eir's memorial than Braham did. And yes, Braham should function like a typical norn for the Doylist reason of him being the main example players get exposed to of norn - especially with Eir dying.

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

No on both accounts, re-read my post if you honestly want discussion.

Re-read, and your rhetoric in the first comment still greatly concerns me. Sticking with my initial assumptions about the place from where that rhetoric is coming from.

[mandala.8507]

2 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Acting again, as if the entire first act events take place all within a single day. We know factually they did not, and Eir had been prisoner for many days, starved of food after attacking the guards and allowing some people to escape.

Again, Braham wants them all to immediately go for the prisoners. Commander does not. Commander lets Braham and Rytlock go out as scouts, and then goes to the village. That is a delay. That is time spent that was not going to the prison camp.

That is why Braham lashes out about being told to wait, even a few days. He is stuck wondering if they had ignored the Hylek and gone straight for Eir, would she still be alive as opposed to weakened after spending days starved of food.

Again. This is not something that is true that it would've saved Eir. But that doesn't change the feelings and grief and the "What ifs" plaguing Braham. 

This is the better interpretation of events, and you are doing a very good job at explaining it in this thread. It was absolutely intended to show the difference in priorities between Braham, who just wants to find his mother and Destiny's Edge as swiftly as possible regardless of the consequences of doing so, and the Commander, who wants to be cautious and learn more about the jungle and what they're truly up against before they proceed.

The Commander is focused on the big picture, while Braham's picture is narrower and more personal. Our caution and desire to be prepared is justified, but it also came at the cost of not getting to Eir as soon as possible, which could realistically have shifted the outcome of events and perhaps saved her life. At least that's Braham's thinking. He tried to beeline it to Eir, and we refused to aid him in doing that, which could have allowed us to find Eir sooner and possibly save her. It's not faulty logic.

[mandala.8507]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

And again, like it or not, the more similar a race is to humans physically, the more distinct they need to be culturally and psychologically. Elves are the ur-example of this: properties that use elves need to go to great lengths to establish that while elves might look very similar to humans, they are spiritually, mentally, socially and emotionally very different.

I've yet to see the classic Tolkien-style elves done in a way where they are more distinguishable from humans than the Norn are from humans in GW2.

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Properties that have elves and fail to pull that off tend to draw criticism about elves feeling like they're just idealised humans.

Except that Tolkien elves, perhaps the most famous depiction of them as a concept, are literally idealized humans. Their homeland is analogous to heaven, and most of their distinguishable characteristics are the result of their immortality and very little else.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

4 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Acting again, as if the entire first act events take place all within a single day

I am not.

I am saying the time between Braham leaving and us meeting up with him again is irrelevant because the time was the same for both Braham going on his own and the Commander helping the hylek and getting their scouts to help out.

So if the Commander just said "sure, let's ignore the hylek and search the Maguuma ourselves", it would have taken the same amount of time, except for the 5-ish minutes taken to talk to Ibli and Tizlak before sending Braham and Rytlock off.

To make it clearer:

• Dragon's Watch searching on their own
• Helping the hylek then working with them to search

Both routes take the same time. There was no delay. We did not "catch up" to Braham. Braham did not "wait for the Commander".

The only delay was talking to Ibli and Tizlak.

4 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

That is why Braham lashes out about being told to wait, even a few days. He is stuck wondering if they had ignored the Hylek and gone straight for Eir, would she still be alive as opposed to weakened after spending days starved of food.

Again. This is not something that is true that it would've saved Eir. But that doesn't change the feelings and grief and the "What ifs" plaguing Braham. 

So did Braham have time to think things through or did he not and kept grieving without thought and relying solely on feelings and grief?

Because you say both are happening, but they're contradicting as per your own example of when you dealt with a robbery. Time dilutes adrenaline and emotions, yet Braham gets even worse with time and acts even more illogical?

And this is acting like a norn, how?

 

As said, we're just going to agree to disagree, because everything you've said is self-contradictory or just wrong. Braham acts illogically but has had time to think; Commander delayed but didn't actually delay; Braham "acts like a norn", yet nothing he does is something norn ever do with their cultural raising.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[mandala.8507]

3 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The only delay was talking to Ibli and Tizlak.

Except that wasn't the only delay. It also included talking to the Kaana, protecting the Hylek village, learning the mushroom mastery and seeking out another Hylek in enemy territory before then finally reuniting with Braham and Rytlock. It was probably days in-universe between us splitting with them and finally reuniting again.

6 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

To make it clearer:

• Dragon's Watch searching on their own
• Helping the hylek then working with them to search

Both routes take the same time.

Sound logic. That's why I always solo my daily fractal runs, because as everyone knows, it takes the same time to complete regardless of if other people are helping or not. 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Braham and Rytlock had already left by the time the Commander talked to the Kaana.

So no, it wasn't a delay.

If the Commander left right away instead of talking to the Kaana, etc., they'd still reach Eir at the same time. I don't see how that's so hard to realize.

Let's put it in the form of a simple math word problem from grade school.

Train A left the station at 9:00 am on route 1. Train A reaches its destination at 10:00 pm.
Train B left the station at 4:00 pm on route 2. Train B reaches its destination at 10:00 pm.
The destination of both trains was the same.
Was Train B delayed compared to Train A?

The answer apparently may surprise you.

(The answer is that Train B traveled faster or less distance.)

Edited October 11, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[mandala.8507]

9 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Braham and Rytlock had already left by the time the Commander talked to the Kaana.

So no, it wasn't a delay.

I don't see how that's so hard to realize.

Let's put it in the form of a simple math word problem from grade school.

Train A left the station at 9:00 am on route 1. Train A reaches its destination at 10:00 pm.
Train B left the station at 4:00 pm on route 2. Train B reaches its destination at 10:00 pm.
The destination of both trains was the same.
Were the people of Train B delayed?

The answer apparently may surprise you.

 A woefully mismatched analogy. Someone other than me will have to help you with your grade school math, friend. My tolerance for this worthless discussion is gone.

Best of luck.

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Except that wasn't the only delay. It also included talking to the Kaana, protecting the Hylek village, learning the mushroom mastery and seeking out another Hylek in enemy territory before then finally reuniting with Braham and Rytlock. It was probably days in-universe between us splitting with them and finally reuniting again.

Sound logic. That's why I always solo my daily fractal runs, because as everyone knows, it takes the same time to complete regardless of if other people are helping or not. 

That's kinda the point, though. Contacting the hylek came out about equal, because the time spent helping them was offset by receiving assistance from natives that were familiar with the terrain. Not helping them would have just resulted in the tracking party taking Braham's route being bigger, not necessarily faster. None of the biconics were jungle tracking experts. Meanwhile, having their friendship and assistance also proved invaluable later on, to the point where Mordremoth might not have been defeated without it.

'Course, Braham probably hasn't been thinking through things that clearly.

Other aspects of this discussion I'll come back to when I have more time.

[mandala.8507]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

'Course, Braham probably hasn't been thinking through things that clearly.

^The point. It only mattered that it could be perceived this way by Braham and used to rationalize his anger and direct it at us. Hence why the discussion we're having about the actual timeline is meaningless.

But that just puts us back on the topic of, "Is Braham Norn enough," which is equally as mind-numbing.

Give us Orcs; don't give us Orcs. Who cares. Just don't write bad characters on purpose to appease people who might as well not be able to read for how bad they are at interpreting the story anyway.

[draxynnic.3719]

12 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

I've yet to see the classic Tolkien-style elves done in a way where they are more distinguishable from humans than the Norn are from humans in GW2.

Except that Tolkien elves, perhaps the most famous depiction of them as a concept, are literally idealized humans. Their homeland is analogous to heaven, and most of their distinguishable characteristics are the result of their immortality and very little else.

I have. 

In the Tolkein case, you might have missed it, but Tolkein went to some effort to emphasise their fey nature without actually saying it. The Elves of Rivendell in the Hobbit bursting out in song like a Broadway musical when visitors arrive. The Mirkwood elves with their outdoor feasts, but where everything goes dark as soon as the feast is interrupted and the one doing the interrupting goes into a magical sleep, only for the festivities to light up again nearby moments later.  The perspective that comes from living for thousands of years, and the difference in mindset this generates from a species that only achieves a few centuries at best (and that only achieved by those with Numenorean blood, which is also diminishing over time). The melancholy that comes from the knowledge that, despite their immortal lifespans (even if "killed", they reincarnate in the Halls of Mandos), those in Middle-Earth are doomed to diminish over time, but even in their last days on Middle-Earth they still had an air of power about them that humans couldn't match. Sure, they're not completely inhuman and have some failings that they share with humans, but they are very much an Other.

The norn don't really have this. They're barely longer lived than humans. Their obsession with legend is basically an exaggeration of the human desire to leave a mark after the end of an all too finite lifespan. Their characteristic shapeshifting ability has been downplayed, and seems to be more of an aspect of their religion than something that makes them fundamentally different. Their independence is, in the time of GW2, really only at the level of having a frontier mentality rather than something that marks them out as being different.

I note that you've essentially conceded the argument regarding history and culture by omission, and that previously you'd essentially conceded that asura have had much more representation in game, but you claim it doesn't count because most of the time they do appear, it's just asura doing asura things again. The thing that I want to point out here is... that's kinda the point. We've seen typical asura doing typical asura things often enough that when we run into an asuran Vigil warmaster commenting about not understanding a Priory boo-boo-matic wheeze calculator, we know that's not typical. But seeing norn doing norn things... mostly evaporates once you've finished the first couple of chapters of personal story as a norn. I might be exaggerating if I claimed that there was more expression of norn culture and identity in Eye of the North than the entirety of GW2... but I'm not sure I'd be exaggerating by much. Outside of the most explicit examples of interacting with the Spirits or chasing after recognition, we really don't have much of a baseline to identify whether the behaviour of any given norn is typical, atypical, or ArenaNet not even having nailed down what typical even is.

Which is evidenced by the big discussion regarding Braham's upbringing - we have basically no idea how typical this is. At best, we know that leaving the child with one parent while the other continues on legend-building is something that can happen - but is Eir's effective abandonment of Braham common behaviour? Or is it more typical for norn parents to take turns, allowing each to build on their legend so that they don't reach the point where their legends are no longer equal enough to stay together? Is it common for norn children to be left at creches so both parents can adventure together, or is this just an arrangement that's happened once or twice but which wouldn't be considered normal? We've got fairly good ideas about how humans are raised (although that varies with social status), about the charr of the legions, asura, and sylvari, but in the case of the norn, we just have a handful of examples without knowing if these examples follow a general set of rules or are exceptions from them. Exceptions obviously should exist so they don't feel like a race of hats altogether, but we do need to know the baseline that establishes the core identity in order to identify that they are exceptions.