Let Loose nerf.

[Zyreva.1078]

36 minutes ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

Teach us your ways.

->

2 hours ago, DarkFlopy.8197 said:

 fight "clones"

Or just bring more players. Both are great methods to make everything work, even Untamed.

On a more serious note, Untamed simply has some glaring weaknesses that it's strengths can't make up for in a meta where many specs lack those sort of weaknesses. This doesn't mean Untamed is complete garbage or unplayable ofc, but "making it work" does come with limitations that can't be overcome with "l2p".

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

4 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

On a more serious note, Untamed simply has some glaring weaknesses that it's strengths can't make up for in a meta where many specs lack those sort of weaknesses. This doesn't mean Untamed is complete garbage or unplayable ofc, but "making it work" does come with limitations that can't be overcome with "l2p".

Is it the propensity of the pet to get itself deleted?

I kinda think Let Loose should be base for the class, at least the ambushes on weapon swap functionality. While the concept is kinda cool, I always found the implementation of the unleashing to be a bit clunky.

[Zyreva.1078]

23 minutes ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

Is it the [...] pet?

Mostly, yes. Not only pet survivability (still a big part of the problem ofc), but also all the other pet bugs/unresponsiveness as well as lack of scaling that makes pets weaker in WvW than in sPvP by default (while other specs are generally stronger in WvW than sPvP).

Another weakness is imo the lack of on demand immunities (stab/resistance/invuln) for melee builds (since ranged options are underwhelming in grp combat, melee is they way to go there). Yes, there's the elite, but with 1s cast time and 90s cd you can't use it when you need it the most and instead have to pre cast then try to make the best out of it within it's short duration. It's basically just a worse version of dolyak stance. And it's not the only untamed skill where "worse/worst version of ..." is the perfect description.

Ambush skills (at least some of them) are pretty much the only strong aspect about Untamed and ironically those weren't even part of the spec initionally (that's also where the clunkyness stems from, untamed isn't designed arround ambush skills, those just got slapped there as bandaid to fix an otherwise completely garbage spec, after the initial spec design was already set).

Edited October 26, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

2 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Mostly, yes. Not only pet survivability (still a big part of the problem ofc), but also all the other pet bugs/unresponsiveness as well as lack of scaling that makes pets weaker in WvW than in sPvP by default (while other specs are generally stronger in WvW than sPvP).

Agree here, solving for pet squishiness when the AI runs it into mass AoE is no easy task but still an unfortunate reality. Given the Ranger itself is supposed to be otherwise balanced around the pet, it leaves you weaker than comparable builds on other professions 95% of the time.

2 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Another weakness is imo the lack of on demand immunities (stab/resistance/invuln) for melee builds (since ranged options are underwhelming in grp combat, melee is they way to go there). Yes, there's the elite, but with 1s cast time and 90s cd you can't use it when you need it the most and instead have to pre cast then try to make the best out of it within it's short duration. It's basically just a worse version of dolyak stance. And it's not the only untamed skill where "worse/worst version of ..." is the perfect description.

I actually like Forest's Fortification (when it works out), if you pre-cast it and then get off a Relentless Whirl in an enemy zerg you can totally refresh the cooldown before it expires. I do wonder if it would become too strong if instead of the 1s cast time, it was a stun break instead. Mistiming the casting as it stands now is just too punishing.

2 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Ambush skills (at least some of them) are pretty much the only strong aspect about Untamed and ironically those weren't even part of the spec initionally (that's also where the clunkyness stems from, untamed isn't designed arround ambush skills, those just got slapped there as bandaid to fix an otherwise completely garbage spec, after the initial spec design was already set).

If that's the case, it is very noticeable. They are also as you suggest, not all created equal either. Sundering Volley (Axe), Savage Slash (Greatsword), and Relentless Whirl (Hammer), are by far the best. Deft Strike (Sword), and Neurotoxin Burst (Dagger), are also strong. However, Multishot (Longbow), and Toxic Shot (Shortbow) leave a lot to be desired. Solar Brilliance (Staff) I have only tried in PvE on a meme condi build, might be good though due to the AoE.

I honestly wouldn't mind if they did away with the pet/ranger unleash mechanic, worked out another way to make pet interaction unique to the spec and focused on the ambushes.

Also Cantrips are a bit meh in my opinion. Cage can be strong but a little situational, Mutate is just okay given that sure it clears all conditions but also has a downside. Compare it to Contemplation of Purity on Guardian that not only removes all conditions, it converts them to boons, and is only on a 2s longer cooldown compared to Mutate. Spores are also highly situational and never feel impactful, the requirement to get the knockdown is too strict. Unnatural Traversal is garbage since adding a cast time, the only thing that made it good was being able to precast before the teleport.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Remus Darkblight.1673
More thoughts.

[psizone.8437]

1 hour ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

I do wonder if it would become too strong if instead of the 1s cast time, it was a stun break instead. Mistiming the casting as it stands now is just too punishing.

I'd be interested in seeing this, too.

I've had a fair few instances of being CC spammed til I died because I couldn't use that skill.

[Zyreva.1078]

2 hours ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

Agree here, solving for pet squishiness when the AI runs it into mass AoE is no easy task but still an unfortunate reality. Given the Ranger itself is supposed to be otherwise balanced around the pet, it leaves you weaker than comparable builds on other professions 95% of the time.

Just for clarification - with lack of scaling i meant the fact that pets don't scale with player stats and therefore don't benefit from all the stuff that grants players much better stats in WvW compared to sPvP. Gear, food, guild auras and so on. Player stats are higher across the board, pet stats are not. So relatively pets are weaker in WvW, even in a 1vs1. It's why for example unnerfed drakes in WvW will deal less dmg at average than nerfed drakes in sPvP. Ofc you can occasionally run into that odd ele with green full zerk gear that still gets oneshot by tail swipe, but that's basically just the outlier that confirms the rule.

Quote

I actually like Forest's Fortification (when it works out), if you pre-cast it and then get off a Relentless Whirl in an enemy zerg you can totally refresh the cooldown before it expires. I do wonder if it would become too strong if instead of the 1s cast time, it was a stun break instead. Mistiming the casting as it stands now is just too punishing.

I don't think it needs to be/should be a stun break, just a shorter cast time. Keeps the design and intended use of the skill, which is ok imo.

Just a little bit of on demand stab on an existing stun break, even when it comes at the cost of an increased cd, is what's missing imo.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[DarkFlopy.8197]

1 hour ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

I don't think it needs to be/should be a stun break, just a shorter cast time. Keeps the design and intended use of the skill, which is ok imo.

I have tested it multiple times, there are some bugs and issues with casting skills, it says 1sec but multiple times the animation suddenly happens quite slow which makes the skill take way more than 1sec cast time and no I did not have the Slow condition when that happens.

Another example would be Maul (GS #2), sometimes it acts the same, until the char lifts the greatsword and lands it the time is double than the amount of intended time.

Another example is Deft Strike (sword ambush skill) and Pounce (sword #2), I record quite a lot of my daily gameplay and I do notice it during gameplay and watch the recording to confirm it.

Ranger is a full on buggy class with a buggy pet and that is just sad, bad designs and full of bugs, those are not even recently introduced bugs those are 2012 release day bugs.

One of them is the lovely "where did my pet go?" When you enter/leave water AND sometimes it goes beyond and won't even let you put it out, soulbeast doesn't suffer from it because the merge will solve it and return the pet out when they unmerge.

Edited October 26, 2023 by DarkFlopy.8197

[Argamir.3651]

On 10/26/2023 at 10:05 AM, DarkFlopy.8197 said:

"Nobody, and I repeat, nobody plays untamed in WvW."

And

"There are very few people (including me) who play this spec in WvW." 

Are countering each other 😵‍💫.

Now generally speaking on untamed...

Indeed the change was not needed in WvW, technically everything they have done to untamed was not needed to carry to WvW, just because sPvP suffers from an issue doesn't mean this should go to WvW too because it's a "competitive mode".

Overall putting aside the bad design of untamed, the bad relaying on pet and 1 troublesome mechanic is a bad idea overall and puts the spec in a disadvantage compared to it's other specs and overall to other elite specs.

I have been playing power melee untamed (GS/Hammer, s+h/Hammer) since EOD beta and I still am, did not since and won't touch soulbeast ever again, I enjoy the play style of untamed more than any of it's specs.

Untamed just needs learning, people are giving up on it very quickly and are unwilling to put some effort into learning it, I can kill almost anything I encounter from 1v1 up to 1vX.

I am not a top player, eSports player or any top try hard player and never claimed I am so that means most of the WvW should be able to make it work too especially the roamers.

My guildies are now more moving towards Untamed since they saw me play it and what I am doing with it and decided to learn how it works and they were saying they were having way more fun and feel different gameplay when using it.

I had this idea to make some videos about my 1v1/1vX encounters (not duels) instead of only bomb montages but at the same time I don't want to fight "clones" so I'm in a conflict 😵‍💫

Yeah that was poorly worded by me, just wanted to get the point across. Untamed feels very rewarding to play for sure – its very demanding to play, which makes the combos all the more satisfying when you get them off. And yeah it really isn't that weak, especially in 1v1. I've been playing sword/warhorn + hammer for a really long time and it's good enough for romaing for sure. But as others have pointed out, its very limited by your pet dying way too quickly, lack of survivability etc.

Do feel free to post your build/any video material you have, would be interested in watching, the build i'm using is on my twitch (check my signature) so feel free to check it out 🙂