Renegade pve solo tough stuff tips.

[aetemes.2603]

Hey guys, I am trying out the "solo champ" condi renegade build...I built it as the "metabattle build"...but I can already feel that it can be a lot sturdier. For example I replaced Corruption tree with Retribution for the "gain health while maintaining energy"...using the drain sigil of course.

Wondering what interesting twists people have here if any..I am already regreting going viper and not trailblaizer...altho..I dunno if maybe I am just playing it wrong...it's def sturdy..but I feel like mirage or even the trailblazer thief has an easier time soloing stuff..and I read that this build is one of the strongest at soloing (not sure what actually is the strongest)..

It also feels really miserable against condis like..is it good at specific things? don't get me wrong it does work but I thought it would be...op xD at least it would outclass the rest.

I literally never play revenant but finding that build peaked my interest.

Thanks for any tips!

[taara.3217]

12 hours ago, aetemes.2603 said:

Thanks for any tips!

take the "metabattle build" changing nothing but Dire/Trailblaizer instead of Viper and start practice - it's more about your experience than build (but condi for sure is far more preferrable option for solo builds)

you can start with:
Vic the Iron (Queensdale)
Zirh the Venomous (Queensdale)
Temvay the Arrogant (Kessex Hills)
Varre the Underhanded (Kessex Hills)
Toxic Spider Queen (Kessex Hills)

Edited October 19, 2023 by taara.3217

[Buran.3796]

13 hours ago, aetemes.2603 said:

Wondering what interesting twists people have here if any..I am already regreting going viper and not trailblaizer...altho..I dunno if maybe I am just playing it wrong...it's def sturdy..but I feel like mirage or even the trailblazer thief has an easier time soloing stuff..and I read that this build is one of the strongest at soloing (not sure what actually is the strongest)..

   Don'r regret going viper instead trailblazer, since the really op performance comes with celestial stats (and the tankiest build is from Vindi). If any, condi Renegade shines in damage more than in self sustain compared to Herald or Vindicator.

Hizen's build (I have my preferences, I'll explain later):

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmzAkeVlhQLsIajJRaMIKjBSjMBygj2z6rF-DyIY1oj/MKUKkrKQhHDChg6P9AaAx0GoC-e

[aetemes.2603]

2 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Don'r regret going viper instead trailblazer, since the really op performance comes with celestial stats (and the tankiest build is from Vindi). If any, condi Renegade shines in damage more than in self sustain compared to Herald or Vindicator.

Hizen's build (I have my preferences, I'll explain later):

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmzAkeVlhQLsIajJRaMIKjBSjMBygj2z6rF-DyIY1oj/MKUKkrKQhHDChg6P9AaAx0GoC-e

daaaang I replaced just some pieces with cele and I would've never contemplated no battle scars. I definitely felt a massive difference.

Thanks a lot!

[Buran.3796]

  Ok, so: Hizen's build is the right choice: has ~3k armor, near 25k HP, decent condi and power numbers, easily keeps 20-30 stacks of torment on targets (with burst of 45-50 stacks), causes permantent 25 stacks of vulnerability (unless the target moves a lot; notice also that vuln only benefits our part of physical damage since condis already ignore armor), has the right runes (the only ones for condi, lol!) and the perfect relic. It also uses the best weapon sets in terms of damage and the correct sigils and legeds. And thanks to the cele stats + expertise infussions & food peaks 92% of condi duration in everything...   Just insane!

   Now, what I run is a bit different, since I like to use (mostly, there's exceptions) at OW PvE things that work at WvW roaming, since I don't want radically different experiences while running the same spec. So: I keep mostly the same base gear stats and traitlines, but replace mace & axe for staff since is needed to survive at roaming, and I use rune of Surging since I love the mobility now that Fireworks is crap, some sigil changes (again, for sustain) and finally I ditch Kalla for Jalis since I don't like that legend and Jalis works well in WvW, at solo or in chain events. My build does a lot less damage but survives equaly fine and can fight at WvW. When I'm not solo and I chose to do a chain event as Palawadan or Dragonstorm I replace Vindication with Righteous Rebel to provide perma alacrity to the group:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmgAUZlxQHsOqh5ROMO6hRSfMCKgj0z6bD-DyIY1oi/QiUBkpUoXRgIvEEgA2DPAA-e

  Both Herald and Vindicator can run very similar builds ro Renegade with the same gear; damage is lower but tankiness even higher (Vindi in particular is near immortal since evades constantly and evading procs vigor and regeneration so you heal faster than Hulk and Wolverine combined). Powre builds as Vindicator can be faster with some champs and bounties that aren't that dangerous or have lower HP or armor values, but when the foe hits hard or has lots of ccs (as the goat bounties or Seneb, Starcaller, etc. ) power is more frail due the lack or extra armor, the shorter boon duration (no cele) and with power when you're interrupted you do no damage whereas Embrace the Darkness and other condi tricks keep hitting as long as you have energy and the foe is close. Take a look at Hizen videos about the gameplay for more info.

[Nephalem.8921]

On 10/20/2023 at 1:15 AM, Buran.3796 said:

  Ok, so: Hizen's build is the right choice: has ~3k armor, near 25k HP, decent condi and power numbers, easily keeps 20-30 stacks of torment on targets (with burst of 45-50 stacks), causes permantent 25 stacks of vulnerability (unless the target moves a lot; notice also that vuln only benefits our part of physical damage since condis already ignore armor), has the right runes (the only ones for condi, lol!) and the perfect relic. It also uses the best weapon sets in terms of damage and the correct sigils and legeds. And thanks to the cele stats + expertise infussions & food peaks 92% of condi duration in everything...   Just insane!

Stacks of conditions are meaningless. Dps matters and hizen builds have usually low mods and lower condi dmg. Correct sigils lmao. it uses torment on both sets which is far from optimal. Doom+geo are way stronger because you can trigger both on every swap. or just torment + doom if you dont like geo being melee.

Expertise infusions are also weaker than condi dmg infusions. There is an optimizer for these questions. The viper version is already using condi dmg infusions. expertise are even worse on cele.

This is also not how vuln works. What has condi ignoring armor to do with vuln? Vuln is just another dmg mod but its on your target instead of yourself. Why no blood fury? 5vuln on interrupt with a 3sec icd instead of 25% bleeding duration. Why salvation? 300 barrier per sec and that miniscule dmg reduction after healing? Devastation heals more with battle scars and has dmg mods.

Why no vindication? That is the easiest way to generate 25might. 

I would just go trailblazer honestly. Does more dmg than cele and can keep 25 might with vindication. Potentially heartpiercer over all for one too since trailblazer is already tanky enough. Your only heals with real healing power scalings are your healing skill anyways. That stat is wasted.

 

[aetemes.2603]

After tinkering around the result I ended up liking is celestial condi herald, not renegade. I wanted to play renegade to use shortbow and honestly the charr "never surrender!" voice acting is hype...but..perma 25 might fury quickness with the regen/prot is just too good to pass up. The boons allow me to just take invocations 25 extra energy which I much prefer having the "breather" of that playstyle wise. It's also a lot more flexible when pugging in usefulness.

Plus the spirits get weird with certain champs actually who insta kills them or ccs them or something..they just are not all that to me tbh....2 of them are like complete dead weight solo wise and if battle scars are not actually needed..seems even deader to me.

I can see certain situations that renegade appeares to have a peculiar edge..but overall I much prefer the herald situation.

Thanks for the tips again!

[Buran.3796]

10 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

This is also not how vuln works. What has condi ignoring armor to do with vuln?

   Sorry, I thought vuln only affected power damage, but since also improves condi damage, the chose of frailty sigils makes even more sense.

   Let's talk about the reasoning behind Hizen's build, since in the past its iterations were quite stable, but after SotO they changed a lot:

   In the past He used to advice runes of tormenting for condi Herald and Vindicator builds, and runes of Nightmare for Renegade; in sigils was usually either Torment, Bursting, Doom or Geomancy, but now most of them are gone. Why?

   For core Rev, Herald and Vindicator the condition weapons were mace and axe, and Mallyx as the main source of conditions with Embrace the Darkness (torment). So condition damage for those were focused in torment, then burning and everything else at distant third place. Renegade had the short bow which added bleeds in spades and made the mix wider. For that reason runes of Tormenting were the main choice for core, Herald and Vindi: provided a torment duration boost which made easy to cap 100%; the healing x torment ticks were also phenomenal for sustain, and even after the nerfs which replaced them by regeneration they were very good. That made 100% torment duration and ~72% in other condis.  With Renegade instead He adviced Nightmare runes for the 20% condi duration because bleeds, torment and burns shared damage, so it reached ~92% condi duration across all condis.

   SotO radically changed the landscape: 6th rune bonus are gone, which means that the juicy sustain bonus from runes of tormenting are out, and now every spec (even core) can run any weapon of the profession. This means that ouside builds which only deliver a single condition (as burn Firebrand, and even then can be argued that can deliver some bleeding) and could get benefit from the 50% condition duration bonus to a single condi (as runes of Blathazar) for the vast bulk of condi builds in the game going for bonus to all conditions is better. And that's why rune of the Trapped killed rune variety fior condi builds: condition damage + 20% condition duration (shame for the wasted fear duration, tho).

   With celestial + trapper runes you can reach ~82% condi duration. In the infussions, you can chose to go condition damage, or power, or expertise. The first ones provide 90 raw points, with expertise you'll reach 93% condition duration. There's alternatives: Malice sigil does almost the same, but costs 2 slots in weapons; Aristocracy relic ads up to a 15%, but then you lose the extra procs from Fractal relic or even Akeem. Since they can be expensive for new players, whic choice if better from infussions? Expertise ones are unusual, so oftenly they are not used; personally my gear is legendary so I can experiment...  For new players I would advice power since condi could be better at PvE in a condi build but power in celestial gears works in every game mode.

   So, the reason Hizen moved to expertise infussions was to almost cap the condition duration with every condi, but waht about the sigils?  He no longer needs Malice in the weapons; since the Renegade build has plenty of crit chance and fury access (Endless Emnity)  one choice is sigil of Torment, now what? Geomancy or  Doom to proc one extra bleed or three extra venom stacks each 10 seconds? Bursting for the extra 5% condition damage? Nope: He goes with the extremely cheap, incredibly underrated sigil of Fraility. This sigil is never sused in instanced content becacause in organized groups the 25% vuln cap will be reached even afking, so there is a waste (groups will have specific slots with builds which are good at spaming vuln, the same that others are good at spamming might or cc, etc.). But here He's showcasing a build for soloing in PvE, and let me tell: I've using those 2 fraility sigils in his Spellbreaker (both power and cele) and Berserker (cele) and you cap the 25 stacks and remain there without a problem (by the way, in the video showcasing the build I think Hizen is not running Frailty sigils at all). He incorporated that choice to most of the cele builds which doesn't require other specific things to work (as Mirage running Energy + Cleansing for obvious reasons).

   So yes, yo lose damage in celestial compared with trailblazer and of course viper/greiever gear, but you get so much tankyness and self sustain in return that it worths it, and also the damage is not bad, since the power creep after EoD + SotO is nuts and you are fighting foes permanently in 25 stacks of vulnerability.

Blood Fury: is a good point, I think the three initial traits are strong and any would work; the %25 bleed duration would be a waste as the gear in this build is designed, tho. Why no Vindication trait? I don't known, I always run it unless I want to provide alacrtity with RR.

  Traitline choices, Salvation vs Devastation: I think Devastation is currently a joke outside instanced PvE. It provides some damage buffs centered mostly in power (which are largely irrelevant in this build) might and extra damage buffs so will do more damage, but Battle Scars isn't even close to the Salvation traits in trems of self sustain and defense: just the fact that you get perma vigor from EE and it sinergies wornderfully with salvation: you heal and clean a condition after every evade and you get small barrier procs every 3 seconds x boon proc makes the traitline if you're playing solo. Yes, well played against some champions and bounties a power or condi build more focused in damage will be better (as the toxic Spider Queen or the Bounty Hunter bandit champios) but try to solo Seneb or Mandulis with a Devastation build and you will be chewed and spit in the floor... 

   I appreciate your insight and different approach, tho, since I've learned things that I've missed.

 

[Nephalem.8921]

On 10/21/2023 at 2:02 PM, Buran.3796 said:

   Sorry, I thought vuln only affected power damage, but since also improves condi damage, the chose of frailty sigils makes even more sense.

   Let's talk about the reasoning behind Hizen's build, since in the past its iterations were quite stable, but after SotO they changed a lot:

   In the past He used to advice runes of tormenting for condi Herald and Vindicator builds, and runes of Nightmare for Renegade; in sigils was usually either Torment, Bursting, Doom or Geomancy, but now most of them are gone. Why?

   For core Rev, Herald and Vindicator the condition weapons were mace and axe, and Mallyx as the main source of conditions with Embrace the Darkness (torment). So condition damage for those were focused in torment, then burning and everything else at distant third place. Renegade had the short bow which added bleeds in spades and made the mix wider. For that reason runes of Tormenting were the main choice for core, Herald and Vindi: provided a torment duration boost which made easy to cap 100%; the healing x torment ticks were also phenomenal for sustain, and even after the nerfs which replaced them by regeneration they were very good. That made 100% torment duration and ~72% in other condis.  With Renegade instead He adviced Nightmare runes for the 20% condi duration because bleeds, torment and burns shared damage, so it reached ~92% condi duration across all condis.

   SotO radically changed the landscape: 6th rune bonus are gone, which means that the juicy sustain bonus from runes of tormenting are out, and now every spec (even core) can run any weapon of the profession. This means that ouside builds which only deliver a single condition (as burn Firebrand, and even then can be argued that can deliver some bleeding) and could get benefit from the 50% condition duration bonus to a single condi (as runes of Blathazar) for the vast bulk of condi builds in the game going for bonus to all conditions is better. And that's why rune of the Trapped killed rune variety fior condi builds: condition damage + 20% condition duration (shame for the wasted fear duration, tho).

   With celestial + trapper runes you can reach ~82% condi duration. In the infussions, you can chose to go condition damage, or power, or expertise. The first ones provide 90 raw points, with expertise you'll reach 93% condition duration. There's alternatives: Malice sigil does almost the same, but costs 2 slots in weapons; Aristocracy relic ads up to a 15%, but then you lose the extra procs from Fractal relic or even Akeem. Since they can be expensive for new players, whic choice if better from infussions? Expertise ones are unusual, so oftenly they are not used; personally my gear is legendary so I can experiment...  For new players I would advice power since condi could be better at PvE in a condi build but power in celestial gears works in every game mode.

   So, the reason Hizen moved to expertise infussions was to almost cap the condition duration with every condi, but waht about the sigils?  He no longer needs Malice in the weapons; since the Renegade build has plenty of crit chance and fury access (Endless Emnity)  one choice is sigil of Torment, now what? Geomancy or  Doom to proc one extra bleed or three extra venom stacks each 10 seconds? Bursting for the extra 5% condition damage? Nope: He goes with the extremely cheap, incredibly underrated sigil of Fraility. This sigil is never sused in instanced content becacause in organized groups the 25% vuln cap will be reached even afking, so there is a waste (groups will have specific slots with builds which are good at spaming vuln, the same that others are good at spamming might or cc, etc.). But here He's showcasing a build for soloing in PvE, and let me tell: I've using those 2 fraility sigils in his Spellbreaker (both power and cele) and Berserker (cele) and you cap the 25 stacks and remain there without a problem (by the way, in the video showcasing the build I think Hizen is not running Frailty sigils at all). He incorporated that choice to most of the cele builds which doesn't require other specific things to work (as Mirage running Energy + Cleansing for obvious reasons).

   So yes, yo lose damage in celestial compared with trailblazer and of course viper/greiever gear, but you get so much tankyness and self sustain in return that it worths it, and also the damage is not bad, since the power creep after EoD + SotO is nuts and you are fighting foes permanently in 25 stacks of vulnerability.

Blood Fury: is a good point, I think the three initial traits are strong and any would work; the %25 bleed duration would be a waste as the gear in this build is designed, tho. Why no Vindication trait? I don't known, I always run it unless I want to provide alacrtity with RR.

  Traitline choices, Salvation vs Devastation: I think Devastation is currently a joke outside instanced PvE. It provides some damage buffs centered mostly in power (which are largely irrelevant in this build) might and extra damage buffs so will do more damage, but Battle Scars isn't even close to the Salvation traits in trems of self sustain and defense: just the fact that you get perma vigor from EE and it sinergies wornderfully with salvation: you heal and clean a condition after every evade and you get small barrier procs every 3 seconds x boon proc makes the traitline if you're playing solo. Yes, well played against some champions and bounties a power or condi build more focused in damage will be better (as the toxic Spider Queen or the Bounty Hunter bandit champios) but try to solo Seneb or Mandulis with a Devastation build and you will be chewed and spit in the floor... 

   I appreciate your insight and different approach, tho, since I've learned things that I've missed.

 

Capping condi duration is not always better than increasing condi dmg. Math hard that is why https://optimizer.discretize.eu/?m=raids exists. The meta dps build isnt capping durations either.

I did not question the frailty sigils btw. both torment sigils are extremeley expensive and not the best choice. Why take those over cheaper and better alternatives?

Trailblazer has toughness major so it has overall more armor than cele while offering the same vit.

I have solo'd seneb with the standard raid qfb build and hizen did aswell without taking significant dmg. There is 1 annoying attack you have to dodge.

Battle scars heal per hit without icd and almost all your hits are multihits. icerazors ire heals for 8.8k while below 50% hp with them. Brutal momentum is perma vigor with cele. deva also helps with fury. You would have lots of battle scar proccs with frailty sigils anyways.

 

Edit: Ok i tried various builds now on golem. Doom + geo are more than 1k dps more than torment. Salvation traitline is bad.

Best result overall: Trailblazer + devastation.

Cele + devastation was very close though and has a lot of power dmg unlike trailblazer which makes it probably overall better for open world.

Now the sustain: Deva heals A LOT more than salvation. 500hps + 380 barrier/sec vs ~1.1k deva with cele. Barrier is just weaker than raw healing since not every boss has constant ticking dmg to use that barrier. Deva has also inceased healing while below 50% hp so it can heal up a lot faster after a failed dodge.

The only thing salvation has going for it is condi cleanse on dodge for ~2k dps and lower sustain with far lower raw healing.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Nephalem.8921

[Joxer.6024]

On 10/22/2023 at 12:43 AM, Nephalem.8921 said:

Capping condi duration is not always better than increasing condi dmg. Math hard that is why https://optimizer.discretize.eu/?m=raids exists. The meta dps build isnt capping durations either.

I did not question the frailty sigils btw. both torment sigils are extremeley expensive and not the best choice. Why take those over cheaper and better alternatives?

Trailblazer has toughness major so it has overall more armor than cele while offering the same vit.

I have solo'd seneb with the standard raid qfb build and hizen did aswell without taking significant dmg. There is 1 annoying attack you have to dodge.

Battle scars heal per hit without icd and almost all your hits are multihits. icerazors ire heals for 8.8k while below 50% hp with them. Brutal momentum is perma vigor with cele. deva also helps with fury. You would have lots of battle scar proccs with frailty sigils anyways.

 

Edit: Ok i tried various builds now on golem. Doom + geo are more than 1k dps more than torment. Salvation traitline is bad.

Best result overall: Trailblazer + devastation.

Cele + devastation was very close though and has a lot of power dmg unlike trailblazer which makes it probably overall better for open world.

Now the sustain: Deva heals A LOT more than salvation. 500hps + 380 barrier/sec vs ~1.1k deva with cele. Barrier is just weaker than raw healing since not every boss has constant ticking dmg to use that barrier. Deva has also inceased healing while below 50% hp so it can heal up a lot faster after a failed dodge.

The only thing salvation has going for it is condi cleanse on dodge for ~2k dps and lower sustain with far lower raw healing.

what traits under Dev would you run?

[Nephalem.8921]

6 hours ago, Joxer.6024 said:

what traits under Dev would you run?

aggressive agility if you run fiendish tenacity in corruption.

assassin's presence for 100% fury in cele together with endless enmity in renegade.

Dance of death.

[Axelteas.7192]

On 10/20/2023 at 1:15 AM, Buran.3796 said:

  Ok, so: Hizen's build is the right choice: has ~3k armor, near 25k HP, decent condi and power numbers, easily keeps 20-30 stacks of torment on targets (with burst of 45-50 stacks), causes permantent 25 stacks of vulnerability (unless the target moves a lot; notice also that vuln only benefits our part of physical damage since condis already ignore armor), has the right runes (the only ones for condi, lol!) and the perfect relic. It also uses the best weapon sets in terms of damage and the correct sigils and legeds. And thanks to the cele stats + expertise infussions & food peaks 92% of condi duration in everything...   Just insane!

   Now, what I run is a bit different, since I like to use (mostly, there's exceptions) at OW PvE things that work at WvW roaming, since I don't want radically different experiences while running the same spec. So: I keep mostly the same base gear stats and traitlines, but replace mace & axe for staff since is needed to survive at roaming, and I use rune of Surging since I love the mobility now that Fireworks is crap, some sigil changes (again, for sustain) and finally I ditch Kalla for Jalis since I don't like that legend and Jalis works well in WvW, at solo or in chain events. My build does a lot less damage but survives equaly fine and can fight at WvW. When I'm not solo and I chose to do a chain event as Palawadan or Dragonstorm I replace Vindication with Righteous Rebel to provide perma alacrity to the group:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmgAUZlxQHsOqh5ROMO6hRSfMCKgj0z6bD-DyIY1oi/QiUBkpUoXRgIvEEgA2DPAA-e

  Both Herald and Vindicator can run very similar builds ro Renegade with the same gear; damage is lower but tankiness even higher (Vindi in particular is near immortal since evades constantly and evading procs vigor and regeneration so you heal faster than Hulk and Wolverine combined). Powre builds as Vindicator can be faster with some champs and bounties that aren't that dangerous or have lower HP or armor values, but when the foe hits hard or has lots of ccs (as the goat bounties or Seneb, Starcaller, etc. ) power is more frail due the lack or extra armor, the shorter boon duration (no cele) and with power when you're interrupted you do no damage whereas Embrace the Darkness and other condi tricks keep hitting as long as you have energy and the foe is close. Take a look at Hizen videos about the gameplay for more info.

Let me doubt, but I think trailblazer gear does more Dps than celestial. 

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Axelteas.7192 said:

Let me doubt, but I think trailblazer gear does more Dps than celestial. 

won't be much more, but celestial gives maybe for few less if it would be a lot more survival 

[Buran.3796]

5 hours ago, Axelteas.7192 said:

Let me doubt, but I think trailblazer gear does more Dps than celestial. 

  Probably. They share the same amount of points in vitality and expertise but Trailblazer has 533 extra points in thoughness and in condition damage. But on the other hand part of the damage gap is cut with power damage due cele provides 639 extra points in power, crit chance and ferocity, AND on top of that another 639 points in helaing power and in boon duration.

   So, a naked traiblazer Renegade with full ascended trailblazer gear (no traits, skills, sigils, runes or relic:

Base power (1000), crit damage (150%) 1633 vitality (22252 HP) 38% crit chance (Renegade traitline) 1172 condition damage and 42.2% condition duration, 3443 armor:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmQAU+AA-DSJYkRBPAA-e

   Same scenario with a naked celestial Renegade:

1639 in power, vitality (22312 HP), precission (68% crit chance),  639 in ferocity (192% crit damage), condition damage, expertise (42.6% condition duration), thoughness (2910 armor), healing power and boon duration (42.6%) :

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmQAU+AA-DyIY1ogHAA-e

   As I said the bonus to power stats will reduce the dps gap but the boon duration alone is a massive +42% buff with benefirts both the stack of offensive bonus as might and defesinve ones as resistance, resolution or vigor (albeit in that sense Herald and Vindi take even more advantage due better access to regeneration and quickness). On top on that, 639 extra healing power. 

   The thing is: it doesn't matter if TB does more damage than cele, because in a race to do more damage viper or griever already have that crown. It matters if playing solo your pace at killing is enough to overcome certain limitations (as the 10 minute cap for bounties and some other events) and how easy to play is the build or how tanky/able to recover from damage is. And in that regard, is hard to argue that the extra damage from traiblazer would be worth enough to compensate the extra boon duration and healing power. The healing power is less maybe relevant since Renegade doesn't spam regenedation as Herald or Vindi, but +42% boon duration is metal AF.

[Axelteas.7192]

17 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

  Probably. They share the same amount of points in vitality and expertise but Trailblazer has 533 extra points in thoughness and in condition damage. But on the other hand part of the damage gap is cut with power damage due cele provides 639 extra points in power, crit chance and ferocity, AND on top of that another 639 points in helaing power and in boon duration.

   So, a naked traiblazer Renegade with full ascended trailblazer gear (no traits, skills, sigils, runes or relic:

Base power (1000), crit damage (150%) 1633 vitality (22252 HP) 38% crit chance (Renegade traitline) 1172 condition damage and 42.2% condition duration, 3443 armor:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmQAU+AA-DSJYkRBPAA-e

   Same scenario with a naked celestial Renegade:

1639 in power, vitality (22312 HP), precission (68% crit chance),  639 in ferocity (192% crit damage), condition damage, expertise (42.6% condition duration), thoughness (2910 armor), healing power and boon duration (42.6%) :

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmQAU+AA-DyIY1ogHAA-e

   As I said the bonus to power stats will reduce the dps gap but the boon duration alone is a massive +42% buff with benefirts both the stack of offensive bonus as might and defesinve ones as resistance, resolution or vigor (albeit in that sense Herald and Vindi take even more advantage due better access to regeneration and quickness). On top on that, 639 extra healing power. 

   The thing is: it doesn't matter if TB does more damage than cele, because in a race to do more damage viper or griever already have that crown. It matters if playing solo your pace at killing is enough to overcome certain limitations (as the 10 minute cap for bounties and some other events) and how easy to play is the build or how tanky/able to recover from damage is. And in that regard, is hard to argue that the extra damage from traiblazer would be worth enough to compensate the extra boon duration and healing power. The healing power is less maybe relevant since Renegade doesn't spam regenedation as Herald or Vindi, but +42% boon duration is metal AF.

It's curious that LordHizen always used traiblazer +torment runes, until the rune nerf. Which means he went for cele just to make up for the healing lost... not because cele is better.

[Buran.3796]

2 hours ago, Axelteas.7192 said:

It's curious that LordHizen always used traiblazer +torment runes, until the rune nerf. Which means he went for cele just to make up for the healing lost... not because cele is better.

  I think that over time he became refined. He used to run mostly Trailblazer builds at PvE but I remember that for a while his Mirage builds did use Rampage for the extra condi procs on crit. Tormenting runes used to heal on torment procs, then got nerfed to provide regeneration but now with the relics they are just a worse alternative to Trapper. But see, sometimes He ditches condis entirely: his Bladesworn builds rely entirely in Assassin gear to cap crit chace and maximize damage, whereas sustain comes from traits and Immortal Dragon if needed.

   Cele is not inherently better: in WvW with Willbender I run a Dragon/Marauder mix due the weapons which work better there benefit more from power and sustain and survability comes from mobility, but with Firebrand I run cele because the mobility is largely lost and I need the tankiness and stat abundance from cele. Cele benefits builds which take advantage of every stat: that's why also I run cele Vindi in WvW. The thing is: in PvE, ouside a comple of builds or maybe three, cele is better in most of cases. Cele Mirage and Vindi, for example, get permanent vigor and regeneration just running cele, while having 24-25k base HP large armor (near 3k with bthe vindi). By the way, Mirage in cele can ouput over 22k dps, whereas Vindi is around 14k, and yet is overall a stronger build (in his tier list Hizen crushed Seneb in 2'40" on Vindi, and that includes the time to reach the battle stage... ). 

   I don't see how people can have trouble about others running cele in OW when it can allow to solo legendary bounties in minutes.

[taara.3217]

On 10/24/2023 at 12:28 AM, Buran.3796 said:

The thing is: it doesn't matter if TB does more damage than cele, because in a race to do more damage viper or griever already have that crown.

That’s not the way I see it:
1. Dire/Trailblazer's are far more preferable options over Viper/Grieving in the terms of bounty soloing because of reasonably aligned damage/defense parameters. Viper/Grieving are more like for fun.
2. I'm not sure you'll deal more damage with Viper/Grieving in the context of entire battle (avg 5-7min) because of having to pay more attentions on defense actions/abilities to stay alive.
2. I'm sure you'll face with bounties to fight with using Viper/Grieving will be kind of masochism.
Thus, to my mind, Viper or Grieving deal more damage just on paper or SFTA's Golem...

Edited October 27, 2023 by taara.3217

[taara.3217]

On 10/24/2023 at 12:28 AM, Buran.3796 said:

And in that regard, is hard to argue that the extra damage from traiblazer would be worth enough to compensate the extra boon duration and healing power.

You see, if you failed with dire/trailblazer's, celestial will not help you. And if you good enough with dire/trailblazer's, you don't need celestial.

Edited October 27, 2023 by taara.3217

[Buran.3796]

10 hours ago, taara.3217 said:

You see, if you failed with dire/trailblazer's, celestial will not help you. And if you good enough with dire/trailblazer's, you don't need celestial.

  That's just plain wrong. I've soloed the elemental event in the forest of Sandwept Isles with power Vindi and cele Vindi and the times were close; I also soloed Stargazer in the same map and in that case the celestial build was significantly faster because Stargazer has lost of cc, and with power builds that interrupts your damage, whereas with condi your Embrace the Darkness keeps pulsating....  Then, did the same trial against Seneb and in power starts did break my face whereas in cele I did it. Is hard to do perfect comparisons since the unstabilities are random, and skill level has also a place (heard of people ding it in berserker stats), but one thing is not ramdom: celestial stats provides 59.45% more stat points than 4 stat gear and 74.38% more stat points than 3 stat gear, so as long as your build uses every stat it gives players tons of benefits (specially on Renegade, which tops crit cap easily).

  But run what you want/works for you. My perspective and advice is from an average player in full legendaries which made his test and can swap for free to what works better for him. Since crafting a full ascended set (just armor) is ~300 gold coins (or a lot of tokens) my advice for most players is that cele should be your first or second ascended set unless you're running something like a Bladeswornm which is mostly a power build. And once you have one or two ascended armor set, a player should aim to get legendary gear isntead of crafting new ascended items...

   ...Which also remembers me that so far the runes nerfs with SotO is headin¡g to cost me between 250 and 300 gold coins just in replacements.

[taara.3217]

10 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

with power Vindi and cele Vindi

against Seneb and in power starts did break my face whereas in cele

Yeah, I see what you mean, but I was talking about condi build and dire/trailblazer's vs cele, not power vs cele ...

Edited October 28, 2023 by taara.3217

[Buran.3796]

^ I do preferTB + viper stats at Willbender over celestial in PvE because Willbender is weak at providing himself boons and you reach near 2k condition damage with those stats, but the Renegade is better at that task and gets more advantage of having boon duration with celestial. I don't known the dps numbers of TB Renegade but with celestail the Rene build is ~18k. Also, despite the thread is about PvE (so you can ignore what I'll say now), in WvW celestial is a better choice, if you want to run the same gear and don't want to craft an extra xet.