Buff Strength (PvP)

[Zekent.3652]

This traitline is overshadowed by Defense.

-Vulnerability should also proc MMR.

-Brave Stride needs to be 1s CD and not 10, this current trait status doesn't makes sense since Stalwart Strength is a thing.

-Mending needs to be buffed somehow for using this traitline, since they nerfed the CDR from Peak Performance.

Bad point of this suggest: you're also buffing bladesworn, do something with this spec, being able to run 2 sustain traitlines with no penalties is too much (defense/strength or defense/tactics or strength/tactics builds). There's a reason on why Spellbreaker and Berserker only uses either Defense or Strength, but not both at the same time, this doesn't happens to Bladesworn.

[Myror.7521]

@Zekent.3652 this does not happened to bsw cause first.... it does not use a second weapon Set and Second ..... it got gunsaber instead with a allready 10 Seconds sweap to its kit. Idk but i feel like a complete rework to Bladesworn plus Access to a second weapon set would be reaaaaly nice ^^

 

Also yea it does also need something against blinds. I feel like the only reason why its not good and used now is just that blind spam makes you basicly useless xd

Edited October 22, 2023 by Myror.7521

[Torq.4926]

At this point I'd support changing brave stride to something like movement skills remove blind/weakness when used, similar to wild blow.

I still think mending could be unnerfed with a buff to restorative strength, either adding regeneration or increasing the might stacks but reducing the duration as they did for signet of rage. We've seen that splitting traits for elite specs is possible (e.g. dhuumfire), so they can make the buff not apply if you have bladesworn equipped.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 hours ago, Zekent.3652 said:

This traitline is overshadowed by Defense.

-Vulnerability should also proc MMR.

Nah. Buff the amount of might gained instead:

Reckless Dodge: Gain 5 might when you dodge roll and strike foes at the end of your dodge roll gaining 1 might per foe struck. 5s duration on all the might.

Restorative Strength: Gain 10 might for 5s when you use a heal skill

Building Momentum: Gain 15 endurance and 5 might for 5s when hitting with a burst skill. The might would only be granted once per multihit or AoE Bursts.

7 hours ago, Zekent.3652 said:

-Brave Stride needs to be 1s CD and not 10, this current trait status doesn't makes sense since Stalwart Strength is a thing.

I am biased as I'm the one who proposed the current iteration of BS in the first place, and even then I recommended a 1s CD or even no CD as it would be tied to other skills that have their own CDs, so you'll get an upvote from me on this one. The purpose of this change was to give warrior the ability to get to a target using mobility skills without getting CCd out of the skill during the animation lock. Kind of required being so melee heavy.

7 hours ago, Zekent.3652 said:

-Mending needs to be buffed somehow for using this traitline, since they nerfed the CDR from Peak Performance.

Peak Performance could be changed to give extra effects to physical skills:

Mending: Gain barrier per condition cleansed

Kick: Launches foe for 600 range instead.

Bulls Charge: Inflicts extra damage (0.5 scaling). Even in WvW/PvP

Stomp: Grants 2 might for 5s, fury for 5s, and quickness for 2s per foe struck.

Rampage: Last 5s longer and now pulses 2 might for 5s in addition to its previous boons.

7 hours ago, Zekent.3652 said:

Bad point of this suggest: you're also buffing bladesworn, do something with this spec, being able to run 2 sustain traitlines with no penalties is too much (defense/strength or defense/tactics or strength/tactics builds). There's a reason on why Spellbreaker and Berserker only uses either Defense or Strength, but not both at the same time, this doesn't happens to Bladesworn.

This is because BSW does not need discipline. They spoke about taking away the tradeoffs, but left the lack of weapon swap on BSW. Return weapon swap, make Armaments into advanced kits with Gunsaber on the elite slot. BSW would then take Discipline. Crack Shot could be buffed to increase the explosion damage on the AA chain of the Armaments when BSW is taken in order to further push BSW into Discipline.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

26 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Nah. Buff the amount of might gained instead:

Reckless Dodge: Gain 5 might when you dodge roll and strike foes at the end of your dodge roll gaining 1 might per foe struck. 5s duration on all the might.

Restorative Strength: Gain 10 might for 5s when you use a heal skill

Building Momentum: Gain 15 endurance and 5 might for 5s when hitting with a burst skill. The might would only be granted once per multihit or AoE Bursts.

I am biased as I'm the one who proposed the current iteration of BS in the first place, and even then I recommended a 1s CD or even no CD as it would be tied to other skills that have their own CDs, so you'll get an upvote from me on this one. The purpose of this change was to give warrior the ability to get to a target using mobility skills without getting CCd out of the skill during the animation lock. Kind of required being so melee heavy.

Peak Performance could be changed to give extra effects to physical skills:

Mending: Gain barrier per condition cleansed

Kick: Launches foe for 600 range instead.

Bulls Charge: Inflicts extra damage (0.5 scaling). Even in WvW/PvP

Stomp: Grants 2 might for 5s, fury for 5s, and quickness for 2s per foe struck.

Rampage: Last 5s longer and now pulses 2 might for 5s in addition to its previous boons.

This is because BSW does not need discipline. They spoke about taking away the tradeoffs, but left the lack of weapon swap on BSW. Return weapon swap, make Armaments into advanced kits with Gunsaber on the elite slot. BSW would then take Discipline. Crack Shot could be buffed to increase the explosion damage on the AA chain of the Armaments when BSW is taken in order to further push BSW into Discipline.

You can already take Discipline on Bladesworn, and also yes it does actually affect the Gunsaber cooldown. That is the build I've been using in WvW lately (Strength/Discipline/Bladesworn) and I don't even use MMR for it. Most of my sustain simply just comes from Combat Stim and Relic of the Defender so its much squishier (and again there isn't anything inherently wrong with on demand "defenses" like on demand blind, aegis, evades it is the amount that turns it into an issue or in Guardians case they have two of the three). It does work, but of course you're going to see far, far more people run Strength/Defense/Bladesworn for MMR + Adrenal Health + Combat Stim + Barrier + Relic of the Defender with all of the Aegis. I feel far less held up by all of those things squished together because they are a crutch, I was surviving things I shouldn't have been surviving.

I don't blame people for running it, especially because plenty of other classes have unhealthy overbearing builds as well, but as I keep saying in multiple threads...we unfortunately need another layer of splits because if they go and nerf Adrenal Health that nerfs other Warrior builds, if they nerf MMR (again) that nerfs other Warrior builds and for the most part those other builds don't need it...Defense Bladesworn does (and Defense Condizerker), but at the same time its almost specifically just how those particular traits interact with it. If they were to go ahead and nerf Relic of the Defender harshly enough there goes most of the sustain on my particular build which would then likely force me into running MMR to compensate thus limiting my options in this current meta of condi melting and yet again powercrept power damage. This is the case for basically any class. How many Core or older Elite Specs have we seen get mutilated all because of how a Core trait interacted with an Elite Spec? A lot.

I don't even think they need to return weapon swap to Bladesworn, I think they need to smooth out how Bladesworn functions with the kit. Mostly just let us stow the kittening thing like a normal weapon, they at least seem to have the rigging for it to go into the scabbard...

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

13 hours ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

You can already take Discipline on Bladesworn, and also yes it does actually affect the Gunsaber cooldown. That is the build I've been using in WvW lately (Strength/Discipline/Bladesworn) and I don't even use MMR for it. Most of my sustain simply just comes from Combat Stim and Relic of the Defender so its much squishier (and again there isn't anything inherently wrong with on demand "defenses" like on demand blind, aegis, evades it is the amount that turns it into an issue or in Guardians case they have two of the three). It does work, but of course you're going to see far, far more people run Strength/Defense/Bladesworn for MMR + Adrenal Health + Combat Stim + Barrier + Relic of the Defender with all of the Aegis. I feel far less held up by all of those things squished together because they are a crutch, I was surviving things I shouldn't have been surviving.

Yes, you can take it, but it doesn't have the same need for Discipline that the other specs do. I agree though that oversustain is a crutch.

13 hours ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

I don't blame people for running it, especially because plenty of other classes have unhealthy overbearing builds as well, but as I keep saying in multiple threads...we unfortunately need another layer of splits because if they go and nerf Adrenal Health that nerfs other Warrior builds, if they nerf MMR (again) that nerfs other Warrior builds and for the most part those other builds don't need it...Defense Bladesworn does (and Defense Condizerker), but at the same time its almost specifically just how those particular traits interact with it. If they were to go ahead and nerf Relic of the Defender harshly enough there goes most of the sustain on my particular build which would then likely force me into running MMR to compensate thus limiting my options in this current meta of condi melting and yet again powercrept power damage. This is the case for basically any class. How many Core or older Elite Specs have we seen get mutilated all because of how a Core trait interacted with an Elite Spec? A lot.

As far as BSW sustain goes, it still comes down to Combat Stimulant and Tactical Reload pushing it over the top, I crunched the numbers on Shoutsworn a while ago, Mending Might and FGJ spam drove that sustain so hard, but Combat Stimulant with Tactical Reload was the next largest part of the sustain.

TBF what should be nerfed is Combat Stimulant. Remove the ammo, and have it grant it's boons at the end of Stim State, or pulse them during Stim State. I'd go so far as to remove ALL ammo from ALL heal skills. That should not have been a thing, ever.

13 hours ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

I don't even think they need to return weapon swap to Bladesworn, I think they need to smooth out how Bladesworn functions with the kit. Mostly just let us stow the kittening thing like a normal weapon, they at least seem to have the rigging for it to go into the scabbard...

Meh. They spoke about removing tradeoffs because they were not done well and the loss of weapon swap is the officially mentioned tradeoff for Bladesworn. The especs should only alter the profession mechanic, not other aspects of the class. Bladesworn will still need an overhaul though.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 10/22/2023 at 10:32 AM, Zekent.3652 said:

This traitline is overshadowed by Defense.

Now that peak performance barely does anything, I hesitate to say this because it's going to give the warrior bullies something to nerf, but Resilient roll alone is better than any combination of options I can take in strength right now.

Strength line is a handicap, because:

• reckless dodge is mandatory if you take it, which means any corruptions turn your might into weakness, and dodging has to be monitored as an attack so you dont proc things like willbender block or full counter.
• Brave stride is useless, because most of the skills you need to get close to an enemy are movement skills, so you cannot pocket the trait proc for when you need it. At best it will save you at random, when you are not actively evading the thing that would have interrupted you and happen to be using a movement skill that doesn't already mitigate for you while it also happens to be off cooldown.
• The damage modifiers are back-loaded, so you have to hit someone with a T3 burst or CC before you even begin to consider getting value from your grandmaster. At that point, the opponent is probably in survival or mitigation mode, which makes the following point worse-
• The traitline has no provision to mitigate blind or weakness, both of which are plentiful. 

So, by taking strength line, you get no damage until you actually hit something, and then once you do hit something you get no provision to block incoming blind or weakness so you can make use of your activated GM. Aggressive onslaught is close, but still falls victim to the blind/weakness vulnerability the class struggles with.

It's a noob trap. I'd gladly trade everything in it for "if you dodge you have a 2 second window where your stats matter and cannot be interrupted by instant cast conditions." instead of stacking up meaningless modifiers that can be countered by a single blind.

And it probably won't get fixed, because Bladesworn has been expertly designed in such a way that if any effort is made to make strength worth taking while BS is in its current state, bladesworn will benefit from it several times over and likely become the main justification for nerfing it back down. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[KryTiKaL.3125]

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Now that peak performance barely does anything, I hesitate to say this because it's going to give the warrior bullies something to nerf, but Resilient roll alone is better than any combination of options I can take in strength right now.

Strength line is a handicap, because:

• reckless dodge is mandatory if you take it, which means any corruptions turn your might into weakness, and dodging has to be monitored as an attack so you dont proc things like willbender block or full counter.
• Brave stride is useless, because most of the skills you need to get close to an enemy are movement skills, so you cannot pocket the trait proc for when you need it. At best it will save you at random, when you are not actively evading the thing that would have interrupted you and happen to be using a movement skill that doesn't already mitigate for you while it also happens to be off cooldown.
• The damage modifiers are back-loaded, so you have to hit someone with a T3 burst or CC before you even begin to consider getting value from your grandmaster. At that point, the opponent is probably in survival or mitigation mode, which makes the following point worse-
• The traitline has no provision to mitigate blind or weakness, both of which are plentiful. 

So, by taking strength line, you get no damage until you actually hit something, and then once you do hit something you get no provision to block incoming blind or weakness so you can make use of your activated GM. Aggressive onslaught is close, but still falls victim to the blind/weakness vulnerability the class struggles with.

It's a noob trap. I'd gladly trade everything in it for "if you dodge you have a 2 second window where your stats matter and cannot be interrupted by instant cast conditions." instead of stacking up meaningless modifiers that can be countered by a single blind.

And it probably won't get fixed, because Bladesworn has been expertly designed in such a way that if any effort is made to make strength worth taking while BS is in its current state, bladesworn will benefit from it several times over and likely become the main justification for nerfing it back down. 

And that last line there is precisely why we need another layer of splits that makes a consideration for which Elite Spec is equipped.

Also the main sticking issue that plagues Warrior the most is this "stacking up meaningless modifiers that can be countered by a single blind" (or block). Other classes genuinely get more persistent and more consistent access to damage increases that affect their overall kit and can get them simply from a button press, an activation, not a hit. In the current environment where basically everything has some form of blind, block, invlun or evade, often times multiple times over and not just exclusively one of those effects on that list either, it makes Warrior feel absolutely terrible and makes its learning curve that much steeper.

I don't blame people for immediately leaning into the busted things like Defense Bladesworn and Defense Condizerker, nor do I blame them for basically just ditching the class altogether to instead play something like Harbinger or perma dazing Mesmers. Warrior just does not feel overall great to play with against most anything unless you're leaning heavily on the ever so consistently returning overtuned sustain that inevitably gets nerfed yet Warriors kit remains woefully lacking despite that. I guarantee you their metrics tell them that like 90% of burst skills hit so its seen as "not a problem" but when Warrior has to fight any player that has eyes enough to see its very telegraphed animations thats when it falls off pretty hard. This is why metrics do not tell the full story, assuming this is the case for why they don't take a more detailed look at it.

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

In the current environment where basically everything has some form of blind, block, invlun or evade, often times multiple times over and not just exclusively one of those effects on that list either, it makes Warrior feel absolutely terrible and makes its learning curve that much steeper.

And on top of this, they turned the once-three-hits Arc Divider into the Orange Whiff that it is these days.

From these pieces of information, one could interpret that they purposely do not want Warrior being able to actually hit other players. This line of thought also aligns with the general neglect of Warrior.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

And on top of this, they turned the once-three-hits Arc Divider into the Orange Whiff that it is these days.

From these pieces of information, one could interpret that they purposely do not want Warrior being able to actually hit other players. This line of thought also aligns with the general neglect of Warrior.

We're meant to be the big bad warrior that the casters get to beat up. Its pure nerd vs jock revenge fantasy at this point.

[Lighter.5631]

what strength need is

 

resistance

 

defence overshadows strength because it has

 

resistance

 

which stables defense damage output, with a healthy amount of sustain

even tho strength should put out significantly more damage with some sustain via MMR and dodges, it is heavily limited by enemy weakness/blind/soft CC spam

making strength damage output very unstable, some times even less than defense.

if defense has 2/5 damage, 3/5 sustain

strength should have 3/5 damage and 2/5 sustain

but without resistance, now it really feels like strength has 2/5 damage and 2/5 sustain so gets out shadowed by defense. if you get what i mean.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Lighter.5631

[Fueki.4753]

9 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

We're meant to be the big bad warrior that the casters get to beat up. Its pure nerd vs jock revenge fantasy at this point.

But Warriors never even were the jocks. That position objectively goes to Guardians, who were the favourite profession for most of the game's life time.

Warrior's are the body builders in the corner enjoying their protein-filled meals (and drinks) that stand above and beyond the "clique difference issues" and usually just mind their own business.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

But Warriors never even were the jocks. That position objectively goes to Guardians, who were the favourite profession for most of the game's life time.

Warrior's are the body builders in the corner enjoying their protein-filled meals (and drinks) that stand above and beyond the "clique difference issues" and usually just mind their own business.

It's still bullied nerd revenge fantasy.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

4 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

It's still bullied nerd revenge fantasy.

Guaranteed person responsible for balancing this way missed a flashy spell as a wizard at their DnD session, got mixed by a near-death meathead with an axe, then internalized it.