Wild theory: could Mursaat be "angels"

[Nuldric.1239]

I know this sounds really farfetched. 

But those new BL and WV skins: Santified armor and weapons, Paladin's decree, Bless emote etc. . Whole expansion got heaven vs. hell vibe. It got me thinking... could Mursaat be Guild Wars twisted version of "angels"?

They have ability co become invisible and in the past they revealed themselves only to chosen people. They have sort of wings and float. Tyrian evil Mursaat can be only faction as it was recently said they aren't native to Tyria and rest of their race can still be somewhere in the Mists or even in Nayos, just like Lucifer was an angel and got banished from heaven. 

I know it's just a few things but maybe more will come to mind. 🙂

edit: Saul's Mursaat city with towers reaching the heavens with alabaster and golden filigree fits Amnytas architecture but sounds a lot angelic to me. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Nuldric.1239

[DanAlcedo.3281]

If I remember correctly, the original plan for gw2 was not about dragons but angels VS demons. 

We have the demons now. 🤔

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

No, we actually have angels in the game (they're servants of Dwayna).

However, in Prophecies, the first depictions of the mursaat before we got the name "mursaat" and they were just called the Unseen Ones had them described as angelic beings, even in prophecies. So the analogies are intended. But also outdated at this point as since the reveal of them as mursaat they've been called demons instead. And it's been revealed they come from Nayos, the "demon realm", and Realm of Dreams. Their design holds very similar ideas to the design of the Makyrs in Doom Eternal - externally with an angelic appearance, but their attitude (and perhaps both beneath the mask) a very demonic approach to things.

The Santified skins look to be based off of the Nightfall Paragon professions' promotional art / armor.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 hour ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

If I remember correctly, the original plan for gw2 was not about dragons but angels VS demons. 

We have the demons now. 🤔

We always had both angels and demons, which is why I've always felt that original design direction weird, because it implies a very Christianic PoV and inspiration. However, demons are independent creatures of the Mists with no solid ties to any "hell" or care for judging mortals (just torturing, killing, and consuming their souls - or in the case of Kryptis, emotions... however that can be a thing). Though the angels we have can fit the parallel nicely as they're the term for Dwayna's servants, which are etheric beings that look like humans with wings.

[Nuldric.1239]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

No, we actually have angels in the game (they're servants of Dwayna).

If you mean Avatar fo Dwayna from GW1 that's just one example, could you please link another? I'm curious. 

 

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

But also outdated at this point as since the reveal of them as mursaat they've been called demons instead. And it's been revealed they come from Nayos, the "demon realm", and Realm of Dreams

Demons can be interpreted just as corrupted angels. Or two fighting factions of same race. So why Mursaat "demonic race" couldn't be same? Yes, they may look demonic and originate from demon realm, but that doesn't mean there can't be conections to other, more "divine" or "good" beings. After all, they have humanoid body and wings. Maybe in future we'll see Mursaat with white wings feathers, who knows. 

 

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

However, demons are independent creatures of the Mists with no solid ties to any "hell" or care for judging mortals (just torturing, killing, and consuming their souls - or in the case of Kryptis, emotions... however that can be a thing).

That is cristian point of view. From fantasy view, why call world Hell, you can call it whatever (Nayos) and say demons, or other sadistic monsters live there, they feast on emotions (torture other races), anything you want. They'll be demonic from human point of view. 

 

If they want cristian pov, explain then how is Dwayna (God) and her servants (angels) connected to demons from Nayos? If it's "heaven vs hell" war. Or Grenth and his Underworld is the Hell? 🤔 He judges mortals there. You see, they got inspiration from multiple mythologies and religions, as fantasy usually do. And it's not easy or sometimes possible to tie them together. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Nuldric.1239

[Nuldric.1239]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 I didn't meant Mursaat are literal ethereal angels, just pointed out some intended connections and puns and that they are possible protagonists (angels) of future releases in our war against Kryptis (demons) and Eparch (Satan) in Nayos (Hell). 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 hour ago, Nuldric.1239 said:

If you mean Avatar fo Dwayna from GW1 that's just one example, could you please link another? I'm curious. 

Unfortunately that's technically the only NPC we see of that design / lore, but Sea of Sorrows and some other dialogue (though don't recall specific examples to look it up quickly) do talk about "Dwayna's angels" quite a bit. And though I say "the only NPC", it's presented as more than one. There's also the Elonian legend that harpies are fallen angels, though whether this is actual or just folklore is unconfirmed.

1 hour ago, Nuldric.1239 said:

Demons can be interpreted just as corrupted angels.

Not in Guild Wars; that's Christianity. In Guild Wars, demons are explicitly defined as beings born from the Mists out of malicious energy - kryptis, fleshreavers, imps - you also have "demon-like" entities, such as Razah and the Skyscales, which are born from the Mists but not out of malicious energy or innate hatred of mortals. Though there are also demonic entities such as Nightmares, Margonites, and Oni - beings originally x (souls, humans, and humans respectively) that got turned into something very, very similar to demons in form and functino.

Angels, as our current definition goes in Guild Wars, are either a race serving under Dwayna, or Dwayna's avatars (or both) - the latter are specific individuals elevated to a higher place, like the 15 Celestials, the Seven Reapers of Grenth, or 8 Handmaidens of Kormir.

1 hour ago, Nuldric.1239 said:

Or two fighting factions of same race. So why Mursaat "demonic race" couldn't be same? Yes, they may look demonic and originate from demon realm, but that doesn't mean there can't be conections to other, more "divine" or "good" beings. After all, they have humanoid body and wings. Maybe in future we'll see Mursaat with white wings feathers, who knows. 

Even if they're angelic, if they're demons then they're demons. Though the whole calling them demons has been more propaganda than not... until SotO, at least.

1 hour ago, Nuldric.1239 said:

That is cristian point of view. From fantasy view, why call world Hell, you can call it whatever (Nayos) and say demons, or other sadistic monsters live there, they feast on emotions (torture other races), anything you want. They'll be demonic from human point of view. 

If Guild Wars has an equivalent to hell, it would be the Realm of Torment. Which was actually made a parallel to hell in GW1, and in GW2 is used in the same way you'd use Hell as a curse. 

1 hour ago, Nuldric.1239 said:

If they want cristian pov, explain then how is Dwayna (God) and her servants (angels) connected to demons from Nayos? If it's "heaven vs hell" war. Or Grenth and his Underworld is the Hell? 🤔 He judges mortals there. You see, they got inspiration from multiple mythologies and religions, as fantasy usually do. And it's not easy or sometimes possible to tie them together. 

I've been saying they weren't going with a Christian PoV, and that's likely why they dropped the angel and demon judgment plot for something more fantastical. And Nayos may be called the demon realm, but it is NOT the source of all demons nor the home of all demons. It's solely the home of Kryptis and Mursaat.

1 hour ago, Nuldric.1239 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 I didn't meant Mursaat are literal ethereal angels, just pointed out some intended connections and puns and that they are possible protagonists (angels) of future releases in our war against Kryptis (demons) and Eparch (Satan) in Nayos (Hell). 

I'd say you're thinking too much into parallelism, because they already did the "Satan" in "Hell" thing with Abaddon in the Realm of Torment, and Zhaitan (Shaitan literally being "Satan" in Islam). But it's not a line of thought without grounds as I mentioned the mursaat were intentionally designed to have angelic connotations with them in Prophecies, despite their name being literally coined from murder and satan as confirmed by devs.

If we do meet more mursaat, I hope they're not made objectively good, because I feel that would ruin the entire point of the mursaat being maliciously evil and conniving - excusing it behind "well those mursaat were exiled from their home" feels like a cop out just to satisfy old fans who no longer play like Quintus Antonius who were mursaat apologists and tried to paint them as misunderstood morally gray guys.

[draxynnic.3719]

I think there are a couple of things worth noting here:

First, IIRC, those who described the mursaat as 'demons' were members of the Shining Blade, who have a pretty understandable bias. There is also an indication - from Mabon's writings, I think - that the Tyrian mursaat were indeed exiled, for reasons unknown. While Isgarren comments that non-Tyrian mursaat are more like Mabon (or, rather, the other way around) than Tyrian mursaat. While it's possible that they are, the mursaat seem to have a high enough degree of morphological stability that even if they dwell in Mists realms, they might be a 'regular' race that happens to have built a civilisation in the Mists rather than demons per se. Perhaps we'll find out in the upcoming story.

I don't think this necessarily needs to mean that non-Tyrian mursaat are angels, but I'd also note that I recall Utopia being described as "angels and demons descending to judge mankind" - which suggests that the 'angels' in question could well be Knight Templar types. 

Ultimately, I don't feel like it would be that much of a "cop-out" to have a group of mursaat that aren't entirely maliciously evil and conniving. If anything, I feel like it adds depth to the race - that they're not all evil, there are specific reasons why this particular group went evil. Which is a trend that has been in play in Guild Wars for a while, with very few races that are always evil by nature. Mind you, from the way Isgarren has described them, I don't get the impression that the non-Tyrian mursaat are exactly sunshine and rainbows, just that they have a sense of fairness that Tyrian mursaat had thrown away. "Brutal, but fair", though, does sound like they might be utterly without mercy when they do feel that punishment is justified. One could argue that this is even where things soured with the Tyrian mursaat - they lost their sense of fairness, and so their brutal retribution spread to encompass those who were not responsible for what had happened to them.

[Nuldric.1239]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I'd say you're thinking too much into parallelism, because they already did the "Satan" in "Hell" thing with Abaddon in the Realm of Torment, and Zhaitan (Shaitan literally being "Satan" in Islam).

And I'd say you're taking things too literally, why there could be no other parallels? Why only Abaddon is "Satan" and only Realm of Torment is "Hell" (not mentioning Zhaitan as it is just about a name), as an author you can create a new world, for a regular person comparable to Hell and don't throw away already written lore about RoT parallel to Hell. Heck we even didn't know word Kryptis 6 monts ago and now everything is written in stone and there is no other way around? I'd say they created Nayos as another parallel to Hell, solely for a new story. There are demons and judging from the look of Temple of Febe, Nayos is very hostile and horrifying place, one would say Hell, but not human or human gods Hell, just another comparable world that happened to be in the Mists. For me Mursaat had enough angelic attributes for new story purposes and they couldn't tie them with RoT and be lore friendly, so they created demonic realm of Nayos.

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And Nayos may be called the demon realm, but it is NOT the source of all demons nor the home of all demons. It's solely the home of Kryptis and Mursaat.

I never said Nayos is the only source or only homeworld of demons. Of course there are more demonic entities in GW and all are born from the Mists or corrupted beings by said entities. 

__________

Mursaat may be brutal race and don't need to be all rainbows, but you can't deny it all makes sense with this expansion plot, it's what laic would call clash between heaven and hell and Mursaat are the most angel looking creatures here, intended or not. 

[Nuldric.1239]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Not in Guild Wars; that's Christianity. In Guild Wars, demons are explicitly defined as beings born from the Mists out of malicious energy - kryptis, fleshreavers, imps - you also have "demon-like" entities, such as Razah and the Skyscales, which are born from the Mists but not out of malicious energy or innate hatred of mortals. Though there are also demonic entities such as Nightmares, Margonites, and Oni - beings originally x (souls, humans, and humans respectively) that got turned into something very, very similar to demons in form and functino.

You took it from the other side than me... I thought of Mursaat as what GW calls demons, beings born from the Mists, not some corrupted divine beings. But if it's true what we heard and they originate from Nayos, same as Kryptis, they are something like cousins. Just add their physical appearance and they are not so far from biblical angels and demons.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

22 hours ago, Nuldric.1239 said:

And I'd say you're taking things too literally, why there could be no other parallels? Why only Abaddon is "Satan" and only Realm of Torment is "Hell" (not mentioning Zhaitan as it is just about a name),

Not saying that they're the only ones, nor that things are "written in stone". I'm saying that repeating themes over and over and over again is... boring. Especially from an author's perspective. I say this as a hobbyist writer myself.

22 hours ago, Nuldric.1239 said:

Mursaat may be brutal race and don't need to be all rainbows, but you can't deny it all makes sense with this expansion plot, it's what laic would call clash between heaven and hell and Mursaat are the most angel looking creatures here, intended or not. 

21 hours ago, Nuldric.1239 said:

You took it from the other side than me... I thought of Mursaat as what GW calls demons, beings born from the Mists, not some corrupted divine beings. But if it's true what we heard and they originate from Nayos, same as Kryptis, they are something like cousins. Just add their physical appearance and they are not so far from biblical angels and demons.

I would disagree that it would make sense in this expansion, to make mursaat being angels out of nowhere. If anything, them being from Nayos makes the argument of them being demons stronger rather than weaker, and them being angels weaker than being stronger. After all, angels do not come from Hell like demons do.

[starlinvf.1358]

Buried in obscure lore there is a suggestion that Dwayna might be a Harpie.  Malkor is Grenth’s pappy. Killroy Stoneskin is the greatest legend. 

 

Enjoy

[draxynnic.3719]

More that harpies might be fallen angels (or other fallen servants of Dwayna). The statues are supposed to be Dwayna's genuine likeness, and she's far less bestial than a harpy - she may, hypothetically, have been a member of a race that harpies are an offshoot from, but I think the term 'harpy' is specific to the more bestial form.

On the original topic: I think there are several questions worth asking here. One is the question of what an angel actually IS in the Guild Wars context. I'd argue that it's probably a servant of a deity that isn't a mortal, construct, or otherwise fitting into some other category. Which means that the Reapers and Eternals were probably angels.

One could, however, imagine a Diablo situation where the angels do not require a deity. Demons seem to be specifically mist entities that are hostile or destructive in nature, so in this line of thinking, a mist entity that is not inherently destructive and has the potential to be helpful to mortals might be an angel. By this logic, Razah might well classify, as might the Kryptis if Peitha's rebellion is successful (there is a lot in SotO that implies that Kryptis emotion-feeding is not necessarily harmful to the source and that it does not need to be negative emotions, so Kryptis seeking to promote happy emotions to feed on might be functionally angels even if their appearance remains disturbing. But hey, Biblical angels could be pretty terrifying too).

The second question is: what are the mursaat, really? We have biased accounts describing them as angelic and demonic, but those sources that aren't White Mantle or Shining Blade indicate that they're just another race, like the Forgotten. Living in the Mists now does not mean they're necessarily mist entities - in fact, they show a remarkable degree of morphological stability compared to demons. Being a regular, if powerful, race that just happens to live in the Mists would probably rule out being either.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

There probably is an "angelic" race out in the mists that are not Dwayns's servants. They could indeed be a not evil version of the Mursaat. But it also could be that they are race of "Peace Keepers" of the mists that purge whole worlds for the transgressions of that world. We could encounter such beings, but be damned in their eyes for 

Spoiler

Killing Balthazar, and let's be honest Epoch when we get to him.

and Tryia is on their list for judgement based on what the Commander has done, or some long ago committed sin by Isgarren that he has been keeping them at bay over.

My point being, just because they may look nice, doesn't mean that they'll be nice to Tyria or the Commander if we see them. Frankly I hope this is the case if there are such beings in our future.