Why did Orr lose to the Charr

[Slowpokeking.8720]

1 minute ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Got a source that isn't self-contradictory?

There were no priests "guarding the places where they set foot upon" or any other place of faith, just the temples in Orr.

Grenth wanted the soul that was stolen back, nothing special - he is the god of the dead, it's his job to ensure souls don't get misused.

In the context of Ogden's dialogue that you took only a tiny portion of, the "most faithful followers" was in clear reference to Ascension and was about gifting Divine Fire.

You literally quoted the dialogue which stated divine fire / Ascension was given to their favorite followers. It's literally right there, in your own "proof" of it.

And where is your source that the high priests can communicate with the gods directly? The closest we've ever seen to this is specific non-High priests receiving visions from their god in question, like Meerak and Kehanni receiving a vision from Dwayna and Lyssa respectively. But this is one-way communication, not two way. Most communication with the gods post-Exodus happens through Avatar intermediaries - and nothing ever says priests are the only ones (as proven by the fact the PC does this personally), let alone high priests being capable of it.

You've went from having a biased and filtered view to literally just making kitten up.

Again you are denying choice.

No, they are, there are priests in these temples, even in the city of Arah, where the gods set foot and reside before they left. If anyone who should have the gods' power shared, it's them.

Ascension means communicate with the gods. And the priests were able to do so. The priest are the closest ones to that.

Keeper of the Shrine: As Desmina did so many years ago, we shall call upon Grenth for his aid. If Orr dies, at least we will be with Him.

Keeper of the Shrine: Where is the god to whom I may give my undying devotion? Where is the god to whom I may beg revenge against those who scorn me?

 

You are the one keep denying fact, you are directly denying that the high priests of Orr, who was the gods' most faithful followers, who has SHOWN evidence of using the gods' power, had the gods' magic power with fragile proof.

 

 

[Slowpokeking.8720]

The keeper was using Desmina, the first follower's ritual to contact Grenth, if that's not direct contact, I don't know what is.  Even when Riahe used it, she was able to speak to the Seven Reapers.

No Ascension ppl is earlier than Desmina.

The temple also still got Grenth's magic guarding it, even Zhaitan's magic could not break through.

From S3, we knew that Reza also got idea of how to use god magic to destroy the Risen.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Kalavier.1097]

And this entire topic is a fine example of why it's important not to leap and write in your own lore into things, as you then will find yourself in conflict with actual releases. While we can theorize, or even try to fill in gaps, we must not absolutely declare X to be true until it's actually said to be true in the lore.

I can theorize that Sharur is super-powerful with massively destructive abilities like Sohothin does when it's super-charged around Balthazar, but there is no basis for these claims to be seen as true.

Even if we were to say such things happen, it could very well be like Sohothin is. In human hands, these objects are just very nice weapons or artifacts. But their power is locked behind forgotten rituals or the direct presence of the gods being there to activate/charge them.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

7 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Again you are denying choice.

No, they are, there are priests in these temples, even in the city of Arah, where the gods set foot and reside before they left. If anyone who should have the gods' power shared, it's them.

Ascension means communicate with the gods. And the priests were able to do so. The priest are the closest ones to that.

Keeper of the Shrine: As Desmina did so many years ago, we shall call upon Grenth for his aid. If Orr dies, at least we will be with Him.

Keeper of the Shrine: Where is the god to whom I may give my undying devotion? Where is the god to whom I may beg revenge against those who scorn me?

 

You are the one keep denying fact, you are directly denying that the high priests of Orr, who was the gods' most faithful followers, who has SHOWN evidence of using the gods' power, had the gods' magic power with fragile proof.

7 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

The keeper was using Desmina, the first follower's ritual to contact Grenth, if that's not direct contact, I don't know what is.  Even when Riahe used it, she was able to speak to the Seven Reapers.

No Ascension ppl is earlier than Desmina.

The temple also still got Grenth's magic guarding it, even Zhaitan's magic could not break through.

From S3, we knew that Reza also got idea of how to use god magic to destroy the Risen.

As the story instance showed, the Keeper of the Shrine's ritual only summoned a Reaper - just like kneeling at any statue in GW1 did. That's not communicating with the gods.

"If anyone should have the gods' power shared, it's them" - that's your own conclusion and headcanon, but not real canon. Besides, once again, Ogden's dialogue that you quoted was specifically about Divine Fire, which is specifically in relation to Ascension and the Forgotten's rituals. The Forgotten, whom I may remind you, were the Six's most faithful followers - not humans, and not the high priests of Orr - and even if the High Priests were, the Keeper of the Shrine was not one of them.

And no, using magic named after a god is not showing evidence of using the gods' power or having the gods' magic power. As I've already countered that claim with GW1 skills being used by charr.

And in Season 3, you do not use the gods' magic to destroy the risen, I don't even know where you're getting that idea - it's actually the opposite. You're using the risen's magic to empower the gods' reliquaries. What you're using to kill risen is... ley-lines:

Firstborn Dagonet: I'm trying to harness ley-line magic to return Risen bodies to the soil. To finally cleanse Orr.

<Character name>: Taimi? If I wanted to find a portable source of ley-line magic, where would I look?

Taimi: Ooh, a conundrum! Let's see. Remember Spencer, my chak organ buddy? It turns out there are others like him.

Taimi: You're already in a place with high magic concentration. Look for a creature that glows, and then cut out its ley organ.

<Character name>: Uh. That's disgusting. But if it works.

Firstborn Dagonet: If the organ contains enough magic, it should destroy the Risen. At least, in theory.

Which incidentally is the same thing that makes Orr so magical - the ley-lines that run beneath and the nexus that is the Artesian Waters, formed from Zhaitan's hibernation. Not god magic - Tyrian magic.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 12/3/2023 at 7:14 PM, Kalavier.1097 said:

And this entire topic is a fine example of why it's important not to leap and write in your own lore into things, as you then will find yourself in conflict with actual releases. While we can theorize, or even try to fill in gaps, we must not absolutely declare X to be true until it's actually said to be true in the lore.

I can theorize that Sharur is super-powerful with massively destructive abilities like Sohothin does when it's super-charged around Balthazar, but there is no basis for these claims to be seen as true.

Even if we were to say such things happen, it could very well be like Sohothin is. In human hands, these objects are just very nice weapons or artifacts. But their power is locked behind forgotten rituals or the direct presence of the gods being there to activate/charge them.

All of it was established facts, it's not hard to deny that Anet didn't think much of it.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 12/3/2023 at 7:24 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

As the story instance showed, the Keeper of the Shrine's ritual only summoned a Reaper - just like kneeling at any statue in GW1 did. That's not communicating with the gods.

"If anyone should have the gods' power shared, it's them" - that's your own conclusion and headcanon, but not real canon. Besides, once again, Ogden's dialogue that you quoted was specifically about Divine Fire, which is specifically in relation to Ascension and the Forgotten's rituals. The Forgotten, whom I may remind you, were the Six's most faithful followers - not humans, and not the high priests of Orr - and even if the High Priests were, the Keeper of the Shrine was not one of them.

And no, using magic named after a god is not showing evidence of using the gods' power or having the gods' magic power. As I've already countered that claim with GW1 skills being used by charr.

And in Season 3, you do not use the gods' magic to destroy the risen, I don't even know where you're getting that idea - it's actually the opposite. You're using the risen's magic to empower the gods' reliquaries. What you're using to kill risen is... ley-lines:

Firstborn Dagonet: I'm trying to harness ley-line magic to return Risen bodies to the soil. To finally cleanse Orr.

<Character name>: Taimi? If I wanted to find a portable source of ley-line magic, where would I look?

Taimi: Ooh, a conundrum! Let's see. Remember Spencer, my chak organ buddy? It turns out there are others like him.

Taimi: You're already in a place with high magic concentration. Look for a creature that glows, and then cut out its ley organ.

<Character name>: Uh. That's disgusting. But if it works.

Firstborn Dagonet: If the organ contains enough magic, it should destroy the Risen. At least, in theory.

Which incidentally is the same thing that makes Orr so magical - the ley-lines that run beneath and the nexus that is the Artesian Waters, formed from Zhaitan's hibernation. Not god magic - Tyrian magic.

Desmina used it to contact with Grenth, we knew that she was able to contact to Grenth himself. The keeper also said "ask for Grenth' aid".  A reaper is mostly because the gods have left. If kneeling at any statue works, there is no reason for Rhie to go to the temple, just find a shrine and it works.

It's not my headcanon, it's shown in the game that they use god power.

The skill showed it.

They said it"ask for Grenth' aid".

Even the NPC said they are avatars, aspect of gods.

Quote

A corrupted avatar of Balthazar, the god of war. Zhaitan's power was immense to have corrupted an aspect of the gods.

You are the one who was denying it.

The Forgotten? Oh really?

Grenth himself was half human. Nothing to do with Forgotten.

Quote

This was Grenth's first temple in Tyria, raised when he defeated Dhuum and ascended godhood. Some of his greatest priests served here—Desmina, Mausollus.

Both humans.

Quote

Desmina was Grenth's first priestess.

Obviously she came before anyone.

If you want to say follower doesn't equal priest.

Quote

Scholar Glenna: Desmina. Desmina, Desmina, Desmina...Desmina! As in the First Follower of Grenth, Desmina?

We also saw her, not the Forgotten helping in Hall of Chains, where are the Forgotten?

Also the Keeper knew such ritual which even Rhie didn't, which means he must be very close to Grenth as well, it makes sense because he is the keeper of Grenth' first temple.

You. are. denying. facts. again.

And even using a different game, you are desperate. GW1 is entirely different since other than a few monster skills, all class got the same skills.

GW2 doesn't work like that, bad argument here.

They said it"ask for Grenth' aid". Did the charr say it?

Even the NPC said they are avatars, aspect of gods. Did the charr say it?

It's funny how the argument is now.
 

Quote

 

More than 1 NPC said god magic or even confirm that they are aspect of god.

The priests are extremely close to the gods.

They guard the place they set foot on, knew how to contact them.

The game text said their skills are god magic.

The place they guard has the magic of the god which could resist Elder Dragon's power after years.

 

And you still deny it.

Now you are dodging the main point in the last section.

Since we could use Artesian Waters' power to destroy Risen and do other things, are you saying that he couldn't use it to fight against the Charr?

Edited December 5, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Kalavier.1097]

51 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

All of it was established facts, it's not hard to deny that Anet didn't think much of it.

Anet didn't think much of it? What? It was established lore in GW1 and nothing about that has changed. Every complaint about "How could they  lose" is injecting future lore bits into it as if the nation of Orr held every single artifact and ritual at full charge all the time, and there is no other way to see it.

 

And I'm sorry, but you are the one who is refusing to accept facts in this subject.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

1 minute ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Anet didn't think much of it? What? It was established lore in GW1 and nothing about that has changed. Every complaint about "How could they  lose" is injecting future lore bits into it as if the nation of Orr held every single artifact and ritual at full charge all the time, and there is no other way to see it.

 

And I'm sorry, but you are the one who is refusing to accept facts in this subject.

Anet didn't think much about Orr's strength when they write the GW1 Prophecies story, Orr was just background, maybe serve as the Lich's minion.

When they actually started to build Orrian lore in GW2, it becomes different.

Konig, actually was refusing to accept easy facts, even after the NPC said the priests are avatars, aspects of gods.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 hour ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Konig, actually was refusing to accept easy facts, even after the NPC said the priests are avatars, aspects of gods.

It's called unreliable narrator, you should look it up.

Randhall is not omniscient, and the NPC names themselves call them HIGH PRIESTS, as does Randhall himself.

High Priest != Avatar

[Kalavier.1097]

3 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Konig, actually was refusing to accept easy facts, even after the NPC said the priests are avatars, aspects of gods.

I mean, you've just proven without a doubt that you have zero understanding of Guild Wars lore, from game 1 or 2, or even the novels or side stories with this very singular statement.

Like you cannot seriously say this and also go "I understand the lore of the human gods and their followers"

[Slowpokeking.8720]

10 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I mean, you've just proven without a doubt that you have zero understanding of Guild Wars lore, from game 1 or 2, or even the novels or side stories with this very singular statement.

Like you cannot seriously say this and also go "I understand the lore of the human gods and their followers"

I do, I read all the novels and everything about it. The changes were clear, in GW1 even Abaddon hasn't come into the writer's mind yet.

 

12 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

It's called unreliable narrator, you should look it up.

Randhall is not omniscient, and the NPC names themselves call them HIGH PRIESTS, as does Randhall himself.

High Priest != Avatar

If we go by such logic, most of your statement came from unreliable narrator. Randhall was a experienced scholar.

Nowhere said high priests cannot be avatars.

If we got with Trahearne's idea, then he is not reliable as well.

It's a physical manifestation of a God, sent by the diety to grant blessings or speak with its priests. I've never seen one, but I've heard about them.

If we go by his logic, then the keeper indeed could contact with Grenth and ask for his aid.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

7 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Nowhere said high priests cannot be avatars.

You clearly do not know what an avatar is if you're making that claim.

7 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

It's a physical manifestation of a God, sent by the diety to grant blessings or speak with its priests. I've never seen one, but I've heard about them.

If we go by his logic, then the keeper indeed could contact with Grenth and ask for his aid.

No.

Avatars are specific individuals elevated to a higher position by a god and serve as their messengers and caretakers of part of their realms. For example, the Seven Reapers - they were once mortal, were elevated to be avatars of Grenth.

The High Priests were not elevated, they were not empowered souls, they were mere undead.

And communicating with an avatar is not communicating with the god - because if I were to talk to a secretary working at ArenaNet, LLC, I would not be talking to their CEO. This is the same kind of role an avatar has in this situation. They are an avatar, a representative that was delegated duties, not the god itself.

The Seventh Reaper is not Grenth. Nor are the High Priests an avatar like the Seventh Reaper.

[Kalavier.1097]

3 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

I do, I read all the novels and everything about it. The changes were clear, in GW1 even Abaddon hasn't come into the writer's mind yet.

No piece of lore calls priests Avatars. Avatars are very explicitly, even in GW1, to be very specific individuals, servents of the gods. Your priest of Orr is not an Avatar. The Reapers of Grenth are explicitly the individuals who helped him overthrow Dhuum. the Avatar's of Kormir are specific individuals, not random priests.

Randall is very explicitly also holding views and claims he "Hears the gods" and runs off to seek them out, but he never heard the gods in reality. His phrasing about the priests is simply a colorful description. We do not kill a Reaper of Grenth in the Arah dungeon, and only the Reapers are Avatars of Grenth.

Thus the exact same is true of the rest. We don't fight actual avatars. We fight undead high priests.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 12/5/2023 at 10:54 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

You clearly do not know what an avatar is if you're making that claim.

No.

Avatars are specific individuals elevated to a higher position by a god and serve as their messengers and caretakers of part of their realms. For example, the Seven Reapers - they were once mortal, were elevated to be avatars of Grenth.

The High Priests were not elevated, they were not empowered souls, they were mere undead.

And communicating with an avatar is not communicating with the god - because if I were to talk to a secretary working at ArenaNet, LLC, I would not be talking to their CEO. This is the same kind of role an avatar has in this situation. They are an avatar, a representative that was delegated duties, not the god itself.

The Seventh Reaper is not Grenth. Nor are the High Priests an avatar like the Seventh Reaper.

No, it is a physical manifestation of a God as the lore was explained, YOU are denying fact again.

Yes the Seven Reapers were once mortal, but not anymore. They were given the power of Grenth, became part of his manifestation . And they were connected to Grenth.

If you keep this claim, we also know that Desmina, who is a high priest, got elevated to a high position by Grenth, serve as his messenger and caretaker, so YES, priests can be avatar as well, even if she keeps her human form. So the high priests can be avatars, they use the gods' power, guard the gods' altar/temple.

We also know that GW1 players reached Ascension, but they also had to go to the temple and speak with Lyssa's muse(an avatar) to make communication.

Again you are denying fact again.  Desmina contacted Grenth directly. That keeper also said contact Grenth for his aid. So it works for sure.

Again denying fact is not a good way to talk about lore.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 12/5/2023 at 10:55 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

No piece of lore calls priests Avatars. Avatars are very explicitly, even in GW1, to be very specific individuals, servents of the gods. Your priest of Orr is not an Avatar. The Reapers of Grenth are explicitly the individuals who helped him overthrow Dhuum. the Avatar's of Kormir are specific individuals, not random priests.

Randall is very explicitly also holding views and claims he "Hears the gods" and runs off to seek them out, but he never heard the gods in reality. His phrasing about the priests is simply a colorful description. We do not kill a Reaper of Grenth in the Arah dungeon, and only the Reapers are Avatars of Grenth.

Thus the exact same is true of the rest. We don't fight actual avatars. We fight undead high priests.

The NPC called them that, stop denying it.

Desmina is the first follower, servant of Grenth, but she is also a priest. Bad argument here.

Random priests? They were high priests who was given the duty to guard the gods' temple/altar, the first place they have set foot upon. They knew the technique to contact the gods which even Priest Rhie, who had a lot of knowledge about Grenth didn't know about. You must got it wrong about them being "random priests".

Edited December 6, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

33 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

No, it is a physical manifestation of a God as the lore was explained, YOU are denying fact again.

30 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Random priests? They were high priests who was given the duty to guard the gods' temple/altar, the first place they have set foot upon.

So were they "physical manifestations of a god" or were they high priests.
They cannot be both, because a physical manifestation of a god isn't a mortal human, and a high priest is.

 

Also the "first place they have set foot upon" wasn't the temples, it was the Artesian Waters. Which the High Priests had zero (known) relation to.
So not only are you self-contradicting on some points, you're incorrect on other points.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kalavier.1097]

4 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

The NPC called them that, stop denying it.

You do know... npcs can be wrong? Or describe things in colorful ways that are not 100% true? Using Randall as the example, the guy is a scholar yes, but clearly a much more religious/obsessed with the gods. He grabs a bloodstone chunk and then declares that "HE CAN HEAR THE GODS!" and runs off to "find them"

His description of events happened, but that does not make them unbreakable truth. Especially since there is *Literally* no other description of priests as avatars. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Kalavier.1097

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 12/6/2023 at 12:00 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

So were they "physical manifestations of a god" or were they high priests.
They cannot be both, because a physical manifestation of a god isn't a mortal human, and a high priest is.

 

Also the "first place they have set foot upon" wasn't the temples, it was the Artesian Waters. Which the High Priests had zero (known) relation to.
So not only are you self-contradicting on some points, you're incorrect on other points.

They are part of the gods' aspect, so they can represent the gods, and still have their own will.

I have proved every point.

The high priests said they could use the god's power

They were called as aspect of gods, and avatars.

They were shown to use god magic.

They were the gods' most devout followers.

All of these proved it.

Stop denying facts

 

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 12/6/2023 at 2:11 PM, Kalavier.1097 said:

You do know... npcs can be wrong? Or describe things in colorful ways that are not 100% true? Using Randall as the example, the guy is a scholar yes, but clearly a much more religious/obsessed with the gods. He grabs a bloodstone chunk and then declares that "HE CAN HEAR THE GODS!" and runs off to "find them"

His description of events happened, but that does not make them unbreakable truth. Especially since there is *Literally* no other description of priests as avatars. 

Then many of you and konig's points were also relied on NPC.

The high priests said they could use the god's power

They were called as aspect of gods, and avatars.

They were shown to use god magic.

They were the gods' most devout followers.

All of these proved it.

We also saw Rhie was able to use Grenth' ritual to open portal through worlds and break into the mists.

 

[Kalavier.1097]

On 11/18/2023 at 2:07 PM, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

So Orr didn't fight much in the Guild Wars, and it was so far from the charr home, they also had time to regroup, and they failed in, 12 hours with that much forces and magic?

So, SlowpokeKing, are you actually here to have ANY discussion at all, or are you here to simply power-scale Orr into being an unbeatable force that can never fail, never do wrong, and is at max strength always?

Every single time anybody provides any reason, detail, or suggestion, you deny it and start yelling about how powerful Orrian spellcasters are. Do you actually care about having a discussion or want an answer? Because you certainly are coming across as not wanting anybody to actually reply.

Also you seem to lack some knowledge of how wars/battles/military units work and behave.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

Each god does 'avatars' in a different way:

* Dwayna had her 'angel' servants.
* Balthazar had Eternals.
* Grenth had Reapers.
* Melandru had Druids.
* Lyssa had her Muse. We don't know the nature of this thing. We can only assume it is some sort of powerful illusion she can use to give 'pre-programmed' responses, but also take over it directly, hence her being the one speaking in the Temple of the Six.
* And Kormir was the only one who used a bodily manifestation of herself.

In any case, Orr  was an inside job. Khilbron's mind was under the influence of Abaddon thrugh one of Abaddon's servants. Razakel was likely no the only agent of Abaddon undermining Orr's defenses to make Khilbrom's twisted mind conclude the Cataclysm was the only way. 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

4 hours ago, MithranArkanere.8957 said:

Each god does 'avatars' in a different way:

* Dwayna had her 'angel' servants.
* Balthazar had Eternals.
* Grenth had Reapers.
* Melandru had Druids.
* Lyssa had her Muse. We don't know the nature of this thing. We can only assume it is some sort of powerful illusion she can use to give 'pre-programmed' responses, but also take over it directly, hence her being the one speaking in the Temple of the Six.
* And Kormir was the only one who used a bodily manifestation of herself.

In any case, Orr  was an inside job. Khilbron's mind was under the influence of Abaddon thrugh one of Abaddon's servants. Razakel was likely no the only agent of Abaddon undermining Orr's defenses to make Khilbrom's twisted mind conclude the Cataclysm was the only way. 

I would disagree with half of that.

• The Eternals don't seem to be avatars - though there was a model sharing between some of the generals and the Champions of Balthazar - as it's clear they're just ghosts of his followers fighting in his war. It's possible that the generals serve as his avatars, but not the entire army of Eternals.
• Similarly, Druids were not Melandru's avatars, in either game. They do use the same model in GW1, but Melandru's Watchers are never implied to be druids, and all druids seem restricted to Maguuma / Central Tyria - not even seen in Melandru's Lost Domain in GW2.
• Kormir didn't have any avatar in GW1, but by GW2's time she has her eight Handmaidens, which were (re)named after the eight virtues of the Sunspear order.

 

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 12/8/2023 at 4:32 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

So, SlowpokeKing, are you actually here to have ANY discussion at all, or are you here to simply power-scale Orr into being an unbeatable force that can never fail, never do wrong, and is at max strength always?

Every single time anybody provides any reason, detail, or suggestion, you deny it and start yelling about how powerful Orrian spellcasters are. Do you actually care about having a discussion or want an answer? Because you certainly are coming across as not wanting anybody to actually reply.

Also you seem to lack some knowledge of how wars/battles/military units work and behave.

What? Orr in such advantage, as the most powerful magic human nation, being able to hold against charr is asking for invincible?

Ascalon held for decades, Kryta beat them off in a bad situation. I think it's reasonable to say Orr should be able to hold off rather than fail in 12 hours.

They are very powerful, dude, as we have argued so many times. Orr has most powerful magic among the 3 human nations.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 12/8/2023 at 6:09 AM, MithranArkanere.8957 said:

Each god does 'avatars' in a different way:

* Dwayna had her 'angel' servants.
* Balthazar had Eternals.
* Grenth had Reapers.
* Melandru had Druids.
* Lyssa had her Muse. We don't know the nature of this thing. We can only assume it is some sort of powerful illusion she can use to give 'pre-programmed' responses, but also take over it directly, hence her being the one speaking in the Temple of the Six.
* And Kormir was the only one who used a bodily manifestation of herself.

In any case, Orr  was an inside job. Khilbron's mind was under the influence of Abaddon thrugh one of Abaddon's servants. Razakel was likely no the only agent of Abaddon undermining Orr's defenses to make Khilbrom's twisted mind conclude the Cataclysm was the only way. 

Also the Scepter of Orr went missing might also be their work.

[Kalavier.1097]

6 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

What? Orr in such advantage, as the most powerful magic human nation, being able to hold against charr is asking for invincible?

Ascalon held for decades, Kryta beat them off in a bad situation. I think it's reasonable to say Orr should be able to hold off rather than fail in 12 hours.

They are very powerful, dude, as we have argued so many times. Orr has most powerful magic among the 3 human nations.

So you ask a question, then refuse to acknowledge any answer. What is the point of this thread. You ask how Orr could have lost, we've given options. Instead of having any discussion you've accused the lore of being wrong about Orr losing.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Kalavier.1097