Why did Orr lose to the Charr

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 12/13/2023 at 1:05 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The charr that invaded Orr didn't have to fight through Ascalon. They sent their forces through during the chaos of Ascalonians' panic over the Searing so that they wouldn't need to fight. So the army wasn't tired from fighting when they reached Orr - any exhaustion they may have held was solely from marching. And keep in mind they took a whole year before Orr sank, so it wasn't like they were marching at breakneck speed and never once stopped. Given that Orr fell in less than 12 hours, the charr took a full year to march through Ascalon, the edge of the desert, and onward to Orr.

They basically pulled a Hannible on the Orrians. And we see through our own history how well that worked.

If you don't occupy the areas, which means you can't get stable supplies from these areas, they would have to send supplies from Charr homeland directly to Orr, which means the supply line would be extremely long and took many many ppl to run the supply line, thus greatly limit the numbers they could send.

And since it's not fully secured, if anyone from Ascalon ambush and cut off your supply line, then it's gameover for the entire army. Especially they didn't occupy lands in Shiverpeaks and Crystal Desert as well. Both places have harsh environment, which means the need for supplies would be further increased.

If they don't march quickly, the supply line would kill them off quickly because they could not maintain it. Especially in mountains and desert.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 12/14/2023 at 5:20 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

I didn't know it was a year between the two, but yeah, they could've skirted along the water and fished for food.

And while they marched, Vizier made it known he had a spell to wipe the Charr out. That heavily affects how things are prepared for. 

They can't. They didn't occupy any lands, which means they didn't have the resource to feed their army other than sending it from far north. No place have fish to feed your entire army.  And the extremely long supply line would kill them off easily.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Kalavier.1097]

14 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

If you don't occupy the areas, which means you can't get stable supplies from these areas, they would have to send supplies from Charr homeland directly to Orr, which means the supply line would be extremely long and took many many ppl to run the supply line, thus greatly limit the numbers they could send.

And since it's not fully secured, if anyone from Ascalon ambush and cut off your supply line, then it's gameover for the entire army. Especially they didn't occupy lands in Shiverpeaks and Crystal Desert as well. Both places have harsh environment, which means the need for supplies would be further increased.

If they don't march quickly, the supply line would kill them off quickly because they could not maintain it. Especially in mountains and desert.

You do understand the concept of a blitz right? It's where you push out and keep going until you win, or you run out of resources.

The charr path would take them through the green mountains, alongside the ocean, and to Orr. They didn't smash through Thunderhead Keep or Droknar's Forge.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

28 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

If you don't occupy the areas, which means you can't get stable supplies from these areas, they would have to send supplies from Charr homeland directly to Orr, which means the supply line would be extremely long and took many many ppl to run the supply line, thus greatly limit the numbers they could send.

And since it's not fully secured, if anyone from Ascalon ambush and cut off your supply line, then it's gameover for the entire army. Especially they didn't occupy lands in Shiverpeaks and Crystal Desert as well. Both places have harsh environment, which means the need for supplies would be further increased.

If they don't march quickly, the supply line would kill them off quickly because they could not maintain it. Especially in mountains and desert.

There wasn't time for supply lines to be a thing, main force got routed then Khilbron made Orr sink...

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

2 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

If you don't occupy the areas, which means you can't get stable supplies from these areas, they would have to send supplies from Charr homeland directly to Orr, which means the supply line would be extremely long and took many many ppl to run the supply line, thus greatly limit the numbers they could send.

And since it's not fully secured, if anyone from Ascalon ambush and cut off your supply line, then it's gameover for the entire army. Especially they didn't occupy lands in Shiverpeaks and Crystal Desert as well. Both places have harsh environment, which means the need for supplies would be further increased.

If they don't march quickly, the supply line would kill them off quickly because they could not maintain it. Especially in mountains and desert.

You're making the assumption that the charr cared about supply lines.

The charr were going after Orr by decree of their "gods", the Titans. They acted under religious intent, and I would hope you're not unaware of how much religious intent can cause people to be self-destructive.

The charr's goal was to get in, perform a Searing on Arah, and maybe return to Ascalon. They had no need or want of supply lines - especially when they could just hunt and raid along the way. Charr supplies came from raiding Ascalonian and Orrian settlements as well as hunting and fishing along the way - it's possible they raided dwarven too, though that's just theorycrafting.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kalavier.1097]

8 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

You're making the assumption that the charr cared about supply lines.

The charr were going after Orr by decree of their "gods", the Titans. They acted under religious intent, and I would hope you're not unaware of how much religious intent can cause people to be self-destructive.

The charr's goal was to get in, perform a Searing on Arah, and maybe return to Ascalon. They had no need or want of supply lines - especially when they could just hunt and raid along the way. Charr supplies came from raiding Ascalonian and Orrian settlements as well as hunting and fishing along the way - it's possible they raided dwarven too, though that's just theorycrafting.

I don't really recall anything of Charr-Dwarf conflicts around the time of the Searing, but I could be wrong.

Another thing is any humans caught by that charr army also = food. Charr of GW1 had zero issues with turning humans into food.  Though I'd describe the Charr armies of GW1 as being more akin to the roaming horde armies that didn't have set supply lines or even homes. Not a long lasting force, but dangerous as hell. They could've even had the idea of destroy Arah, claim Orr as their land.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

7 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I don't really recall anything of Charr-Dwarf conflicts around the time of the Searing, but I could be wrong.

None are mentioned, but we also have practically zero dwarf politics and history prior to 1072 AE in all honesty. Just vague bits here and there. So nothing says there wasn't. We don't know the exact path the charr took to Orr - so like I said it's pure theorycrafting. No proof for, no proof against.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 12/15/2023 at 6:27 PM, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

There wasn't time for supply lines to be a thing, main force got routed then Khilbron made Orr sink...

How? Without a secured supply line, they couldn't even made there without huge moral down.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

22 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

You're making the assumption that the charr cared about supply lines.

The charr were going after Orr by decree of their "gods", the Titans. They acted under religious intent, and I would hope you're not unaware of how much religious intent can cause people to be self-destructive.

The charr's goal was to get in, perform a Searing on Arah, and maybe return to Ascalon. They had no need or want of supply lines - especially when they could just hunt and raid along the way. Charr supplies came from raiding Ascalonian and Orrian settlements as well as hunting and fishing along the way - it's possible they raided dwarven too, though that's just theorycrafting.

It's not about they care or not, it's a MUST in war.

You don't get a reasonable supplyline, your army simply crumble quickly.

Again the charr didn't use the Searing, they defeated Orrian army then planned to use it.  Without their army, it would be easily found and disrupted. It's not longer a surprise and Orrians are better with magic.

No you can't hunt and raid for such a long march without building or occupying any places, especially Shiverpeak and Crystal Desert got very limited resources, and their residents don't welcome the charr.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 12/15/2023 at 6:15 PM, Kalavier.1097 said:

You do understand the concept of a blitz right? It's where you push out and keep going until you win, or you run out of resources.

The charr path would take them through the green mountains, alongside the ocean, and to Orr. They didn't smash through Thunderhead Keep or Droknar's Forge.

Blitz need railroad, steel tide and even air force to help. And a lot of resources needed. Still even like that, they need to occupy lands on the way to get resouces there. The charr didn't even have a secured backline, it would be stupid to do so. The Orrians just need to unite with Ascalon, backstab and cut off their supply line=whole army crumble.

If they go through such roue, it would make the route much longer, more supply needed and they could easily get killed once it's cut off ANYWHERE on the way.

[Kalavier.1097]

9 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

It's not about they care or not, it's a MUST in war.

You don't get a reasonable supplyline, your army simply crumble quickly.

Again the charr didn't use the Searing, they defeated Orrian army then planned to use it.  Without their army, it would be easily found and disrupted. It's not longer a surprise and Orrians are better with magic.

No you can't hunt and raid for such a long march without building or occupying any places, especially Shiverpeak and Crystal Desert got very limited resources, and their residents don't welcome the charr.

This one forgets that the Charr of GW1 would consider all human captives, horses, cows, moas, etc food. 

Also this one forgets that you don't have to build an entire infrastructure as you move. Mongol tribes did just fine without supply lines until they started doing sieges.

9 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Blitz need railroad, steel tide and even air force to help. And a lot of resources needed. Still even like that, they need to occupy lands on the way to get resouces there. The charr didn't even have a secured backline, it would be stupid to do so. The Orrians just need to unite with Ascalon, backstab and cut off their supply line=whole army crumble.

If they go through such roue, it would make the route much longer, more supply needed and they could easily get killed once it's cut off ANYWHERE on the way.

You just proved you don't get what I said at all. The blitzkrieg in ww2 went on until the tanks outran the supply lines, and then stopped. They didn't secure land, they left that to the infantry following them.

The charr of GW1 have a very small logistical footprint. They don't have ammo, they have healing magics, and food is anything that is meat. This is not the Charr of GW2 who do have to consider ammo and other factors like storage for gear as they march.

"The orrians just need to unite to Ascalon" Ah yes, they'll get right on it by sending messangers straight through the incoming Charr army and handing the Shamans a gift-wrapped meal.

The Charr army defeats the main Orrian force, all those corpses are food. It's kinda like the Ogre armies in Warhammer fantasy, who basically eat anything meaty. They defeat an army, all the captives and dead become food. They raid a goat farm? The goats all join in the pile of things to eat. That's like GW1 charr.

Again, do you even WANT a discussion because you absolutely refuse to accept any answer at all, no matter what, and now are basically crying out from the rooftops that GW1 lore is totally wrong and Orr should've been completely fine. 

Hell, looking at the only real details we have of the Orrian military (Gw1 undead in kryta) they have a pretty equal mix of spellcasters and martials, similar to the Charr. Likewise they aren't any more potent then the living soldiers they face or the Charr.

16 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

None are mentioned, but we also have practically zero dwarf politics and history prior to 1072 AE in all honesty. Just vague bits here and there. So nothing says there wasn't. We don't know the exact path the charr took to Orr - so like I said it's pure theorycrafting. No proof for, no proof against.

This reminds me of that other guy who kept saying the human gods weren't actually gods, because RL mythology and we don't have super detailed records from the dwarves of huge destructive earthquakes all over the world from the crystal desert formation. Nothing pleased that person either IIRC?

Edited December 17, 2023 by Kalavier.1097

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 12/17/2023 at 4:56 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

This one forgets that the Charr of GW1 would consider all human captives, horses, cows, moas, etc food. 

Also this one forgets that you don't have to build an entire infrastructure as you move. Mongol tribes did just fine without supply lines until they started doing sieges.

You just proved you don't get what I said at all. The blitzkrieg in ww2 went on until the tanks outran the supply lines, and then stopped. They didn't secure land, they left that to the infantry following them.

The charr of GW1 have a very small logistical footprint. They don't have ammo, they have healing magics, and food is anything that is meat. This is not the Charr of GW2 who do have to consider ammo and other factors like storage for gear as they march.

"The orrians just need to unite to Ascalon" Ah yes, they'll get right on it by sending messangers straight through the incoming Charr army and handing the Shamans a gift-wrapped meal.

The Charr army defeats the main Orrian force, all those corpses are food. It's kinda like the Ogre armies in Warhammer fantasy, who basically eat anything meaty. They defeat an army, all the captives and dead become food. They raid a goat farm? The goats all join in the pile of things to eat. That's like GW1 charr.

Again, do you even WANT a discussion because you absolutely refuse to accept any answer at all, no matter what, and now are basically crying out from the rooftops that GW1 lore is totally wrong and Orr should've been completely fine. 

Hell, looking at the only real details we have of the Orrian military (Gw1 undead in kryta) they have a pretty equal mix of spellcasters and martials, similar to the Charr. Likewise they aren't any more potent then the living soldiers they face or the Charr.

This reminds me of that other guy who kept saying the human gods weren't actually gods, because RL mythology and we don't have super detailed records from the dwarves of huge destructive earthquakes all over the world from the crystal desert formation. Nothing pleased that person either IIRC?

Which means they will suffer extremely strong resistance among human lands, further increased difficulty to occupy lands. And no, if you try to use enemy's corpses as food, your troops will very easily catch plague, which will be devastating.

 

Blitzkreig could go on because there are railroads and steel tides, still the route is not very long whenever they do it. The charr didn't even have enough riders to increase their mobility. They conquer a nation, occupy then start war again. Not something like go across the distance like half of Tyria, including mountains, desert and snow lands which will GREATLY slow you off, especially without occupy anything, which means

1 your route is easy to be discovered, no surprise.

2 your supply line will be easily cut off and very hard to keep.

3 With such a long march, your army will get very exhausted.

They just need to sneak and cut off the supply, then attack from behind, without supply the army will crumble. Countless wars end like that, and that's why no general would stupid enough to go across such a long way without secure backline.

 

Do you even have basic knowledge of war?

Corpse can never be a good way to solve food problem, actually it's a huge risk because if you don't clear the battleground quick enough, plague will start to spread. And this is WHY even the most savage army would not try to eat enemy's corpse unless there are no option. It could not be used as a main food source.

 

Not to say there is no army to fight throughout their long march, if they try to massacre local beings, it would start more conflict and drag them further down.

 

Because nothing you gave makes logical sense, you don't even seem to have basic knowledge of war. Your point keep getting beat out and you switch to another rather than admit that Anet never thought much about it. The charr were never really powerful without Searing, which was proven by Ascalon and Kryta. Orr is the farthest, with the best landscape, lost the least among the 3 in the Guild War and had such strong army+magic.

Edited December 19, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Kalavier.1097]

29 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Because nothing you gave makes logical sense, you don't even seem to have basic knowledge of war. Your point keep getting beat out and you switch to another rather than admit that Anet never thought much about it. The charr were never really powerful without Searing, which was proven by Ascalon and Kryta. Orr is the farthest, with the best landscape, lost the least among the 3 in the Guild War and had such strong army+magic.

And you are saying things that don't have any canon basis, like the source of Orr = magic booster. Or that Orrian military for a fact had large numbers of powerful spellcasters. You refuse to acknowledge the aspects of morale and how they could've marched to war thinking they had already won due to Vizier's spell. We have no idea how much they lost in the guild wars, that's pure fanon. We have no idea if their army was experienced, or prepared to fight the Charr.

You constantly ignore the advantages Ascalon had compare to the other nations as well.

You aren't interested in a conversation.

32 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

The charr didn't even have enough riders to increase their mobility. They conquer a nation, occupy then start war again. Not something like go across the distance like half of Tyria, including mountains, desert and snow lands which will GREATLY slow you off, especially without occupy anything, which means

1 your route is easy to be discovered, no surprise.

2 your supply line will be easily cut off and very hard to keep.

3 With such a long march, your army will get very exhausted.

They just need to sneak and cut off the supply, then attack from behind, without supply the army will crumble. Countless wars end like that, and that's why no general would stupid enough to go across such a long way without secure backline.

 

All this is going off the insane assumption that A: Orr can contact Ascalon (It cannot) B: Ascalon isn't currently busy trying to secure their own towns (It was) C : Charr tire at the same rate as humans.

you've gone from Orr is overpowered to now Ascalon and Orr should've just magically joined forces and pincer attacked the Charr from front and behind.

The canon facts are such. Orr marched out an army, believing the enemy would be tired and easier to be beat. They were confident in their military strength. Their force that went out was scattered after 12 hours of fighting. After which the Charr surged inland, and Vizier cast his spell that nuked Orr. 

Orr lost, and you cannot change that.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Wasn't Ascalon led by a king who hated the other human nations too? He refused Kryta's help I dunno why he would go out of his way to help Orr.

[Kalavier.1097]

18 minutes ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

Wasn't Ascalon led by a king who hated the other human nations too? He refused Kryta's help I dunno why he would go out of his way to help Orr.

He was extremely racist/biased against Kryta, it's unclear what he thought of Orr. Even assuming good relations (saying he was gifted the flaming sword directly and it wasn't inherited as part of the throne) that'd be asking him to openly attack the Charr with depleted forces and possibly leaving his own cities defenseless against and new attacks. 

[Narcemus.1348]

11 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

He was extremely racist/biased against Kryta, it's unclear what he thought of Orr. Even assuming good relations (saying he was gifted the flaming sword directly and it wasn't inherited as part of the throne) that'd be asking him to openly attack the Charr with depleted forces and possibly leaving his own cities defenseless against and new attacks. 

Ascalon had literally just been ecologically devastated after the Searing. It isn't surprising at all to imagine that the Ascalonians barely had the resources to attempt to protect and feed their own. They were in no position to attack a charr fighting force. Honestly, I find the charr attack and success in Orr to be far more likely than the fact that the Ascalonians were able to feed and water their civilians for years after the Searing wiped out everything that they had, but that's a whole other conversation.

[Kalavier.1097]

6 minutes ago, Narcemus.1348 said:

Ascalon had literally just been ecologically devastated after the Searing. It isn't surprising at all to imagine that the Ascalonians barely had the resources to attempt to protect and feed their own. They were in no position to attack a charr fighting force. Honestly, I find the charr attack and success in Orr to be far more likely than the fact that the Ascalonians were able to feed and water their civilians for years after the Searing wiped out everything that they had, but that's a whole other conversation.

We know Ascalonians used Charr hide/fur for armor and clothing. So as a point of pure speculation, I suspect they used the rest of the Charr killed for food. Charr ate humans, humans ate Charr. 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

8 hours ago, Narcemus.1348 said:

Ascalon had literally just been ecologically devastated after the Searing. It isn't surprising at all to imagine that the Ascalonians barely had the resources to attempt to protect and feed their own. They were in no position to attack a charr fighting force. Honestly, I find the charr attack and success in Orr to be far more likely than the fact that the Ascalonians were able to feed and water their civilians for years after the Searing wiped out everything that they had, but that's a whole other conversation.

Indeed, the Ascalonians were in no position to stop a large charr army sweeping through their lands in the weeks following the Searing.

However, the notion that Ascalonians didn't have any food and water seems silly. While they couldn't farm due to the destroyed soil and irrigation, there is plenty evidence of surviving aloe seeds and treants, as well as wildlife like moas and skale. This is ample food to hunt for; given that there is a quest in the Northern Shiverpeaks for reufgees hunting aloe to eat their seeds, I imagine that might have become a stable diet for Ascalonians after the Searing.

As for water, while their lakes and rivers were kittened over even by 1072 AE, rainwater would have still been healthy and clean - or at least clean enough to drink. Add some barrels to store water and filters just in case and you got clean water to survive off of.

And we don't really know the state of those rivers and lakes after the events of Prophecies - they never updated the maps for the very brief quest returning to Ascalon with EotN, nor any moment with War in Kryta. So we don't really know if the tar lakes were there for 2 years, or for the full 20 that humanity had to struggle and lose to survive.

That said, the poor but existing quality of food and water is no doubt a large reason why the Ascalonians were slowly succumbing to the charr, where it wasn't uncommon for charr to be south of the wall by 1078 AE as per that aforementioned EotN quest.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

21 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

And you are saying things that don't have any canon basis, like the source of Orr = magic booster. Or that Orrian military for a fact had large numbers of powerful spellcasters. You refuse to acknowledge the aspects of morale and how they could've marched to war thinking they had already won due to Vizier's spell. We have no idea how much they lost in the guild wars, that's pure fanon. We have no idea if their army was experienced, or prepared to fight the Charr.

You constantly ignore the advantages Ascalon had compare to the other nations as well.

You aren't interested in a conversation.

All this is going off the insane assumption that A: Orr can contact Ascalon (It cannot) B: Ascalon isn't currently busy trying to secure their own towns (It was) C : Charr tire at the same rate as humans.

you've gone from Orr is overpowered to now Ascalon and Orr should've just magically joined forces and pincer attacked the Charr from front and behind.

The canon facts are such. Orr marched out an army, believing the enemy would be tired and easier to be beat. They were confident in their military strength. Their force that went out was scattered after 12 hours of fighting. After which the Charr surged inland, and Vizier cast his spell that nuked Orr. 

Orr lost, and you cannot change that.

Everything I said has basis.

Source of Orr PROVED to be powerful booster even to Elder Dragon.

Orr got many powerful magic users as we seen. We went over this before.

Again you didn't even read right?

Quote

Hopes were high that the Charr would be defeated quickly. The Orrian army was the equal of any in Tyria, and the invaders had already fought a long battle against the Ascalons. But those hopes were dashed in less than twelve hours.

The invaders reached the gates of Arah without breaking stride. The Orrians failed to protect their charge. With defeat at the doorstep and the kingdom nearly in ruins, one man turned to a forbidden magic. The king's own personal advisor in the matters of the arcane took it upon himself to destroy the invaders, no matter the cost. Unrolling one of the Lost Scrolls, kept inside a warded vault deep within the catacombs below Arah, he spoke the words of a litany that spelled the end of the Kingdom of Orr forever.

 

Quote

At first, Orr was saved from much of the fighting. The guilds with allegiances to Ascalon and Kryta withdrew, heading back to defend their homes. Orr regrouped, granted a moment to prepare simply because they were farther south. The Charr had to make their way through Ascalon before they could reach the gates of Arah. But eventually Ascalon fell, and the Charr arrived in Orr.

 

Of course Orr can contact them, or just send their own with Lyssa's illusion magic. We saw how useful such magic is.

Again, you still didn't even read the lore, and refuse to accept that obviously Anet didn't consider much and it didn't make much sense.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Slowpokeking.8720]

9 hours ago, Narcemus.1348 said:

Ascalon had literally just been ecologically devastated after the Searing. It isn't surprising at all to imagine that the Ascalonians barely had the resources to attempt to protect and feed their own. They were in no position to attack a charr fighting force. Honestly, I find the charr attack and success in Orr to be far more likely than the fact that the Ascalonians were able to feed and water their civilians for years after the Searing wiped out everything that they had, but that's a whole other conversation.

Ascalon even came out to defeat the titan invasion with PC's help. Why would you think they didn't have anything to fight back?

They also got the secret weapon on hand to cast Foefire if needed.

Because the charr weren't that powerful, they mostly caught Ascalon by surprise and the Searing, without it, their forces weren't that strong.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

13 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Of course Orr can contact them, or just send their own with Lyssa's illusion magic. We saw how useful such magic is.

Again, you still didn't even read the lore, and refuse to accept that obviously Anet didn't consider much and it didn't make much sense.

1. Orr was still at war with Ascalon, even if they could - which is dubious a claim at best - why would they?
2. No mortal mesmer's magic can span the continent. If you actually played GW1, you'd know the main means of communication was written letters - hell that's even true in GW2 until Season 3.The most a mesmer can do to send a message is to leave an illusion in place to trigger to leave a voice mail when someone approaches and then it shatters, as seen in the charr PS.
3. Again, Orrians did not have access to god level magic.
4. Whether or not ArenaNet considered it is irrelevant to what did or did not happen.

  

8 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Ascalon even came out to defeat the titan invasion with PC's help. Why would you think they didn't have anything to fight back?

They also got the secret weapon on hand to cast Foefire if needed.

Because the charr weren't that powerful, they mostly caught Ascalon by surprise and the Searing, without it, their forces weren't that strong.

You're now talking about events in 1072 AE, and applying the same level of capability to immediately after the Searing.

That's kind of like saying that New York City was perfectly capable on the week following 9/11, because two years later they were.

You're also ascribing the deeds of a team of Ascended individuals to be the norm for an entire nation - they are not. Ascalonians, even the PC during 1070 AE, were not Ascended nor did they have the experience that they had by the time of taking down the Titans in question.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Slowpokeking.8720]

48 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

1. Orr was still at war with Ascalon, even if they could - which is dubious a claim at best - why would they?
2. No mortal mesmer's magic can span the continent. If you actually played GW1, you'd know the main means of communication was written letters - hell that's even true in GW2 until Season 3.The most a mesmer can do to send a message is to leave an illusion in place to trigger to leave a voice mail when someone approaches and then it shatters, as seen in the charr PS.
3. Again, Orrians did not have access to god level magic.
4. Whether or not ArenaNet considered it is irrelevant to what did or did not happen.

  

You're now talking about events in 1072 AE, and applying the same level of capability to immediately after the Searing.

That's kind of like saying that New York City was perfectly capable on the week following 9/11, because two years later they were.

You're also ascribing the deeds of a team of Ascended individuals to be the norm for an entire nation - they are not. Ascalonians, even the PC during 1070 AE, were not Ascended nor did they have the experience that they had by the time of taking down the Titans in question.

No, Orr stopped the war and got back.

They don't have to, they just need to take disguise, move behind and cut the charr's supply off or poison it=death to the army.

Again we have been going over it. The NPC said it, the skills' name proved it, the plot and setting all proved it. It's just pointless to deny that or to go over it.

Which means they didn't think much about it.

 

And the charr got a huge aid from the titans, the war was keep going on, Ruik also led some ppl to Kryta.

They just need a few troops to trust them, the action could be done. Or they might don't need it. With Lyssa's magic it's easy to get in and mess with the charr's supply line. GW2 even showed that one Risen could use illusion magic to sneak into to disguise as a military official for a couple of days, and misled the PC to bomb Pact crew.

The fact is clear that the charr weren't stronger than the humans, they razed Ascalon simply because The Searing and they caught them by surprise+the Guild Wars. Orr didn't get the Searing, got time to prepare and they didn't lose much in the Guild Wars.

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

22 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

No, Orr stopped the war and got back.

Nobody stopped the war. Orrians were still at odds with Ascalonians and Krytans, they just put efforts into defending against Charr. There was no sudden alliance because of a new foe unified the three kingdoms like you'd get in GW2 storytelling.

22 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

They don't have to, they just need to take disguise, move behind and cut the charr's supply off or poison it=death to the army.

This is the equivalent of "coulda, woulda, shoulda, didn't" in all honesty.

Maybe if the Orrians didn't pull back and focused solely on defense believing themselves capable of holding back the charr, and instead performed guerrilla tactics on the charr raiding party, they could have won... but since they didn't, we have no clue if they would have.

22 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Again we have been going over it. The NPC said it, the skills' name proved it, the plot and setting all proved it. It's just pointless to deny that or to go over it.

So according to you, charr use god magic too, because they use the same skills of the same name that 'proved it'.

Gotcha.

22 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

And the charr got a huge aid from the titans, the war was keep going on, Ruik also led some ppl to Kryta.

Again, you're talking about events in 1072 AE and comparing them to the state of things in 1070 AE immediately after the Searing.

22 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

They just need a few troops to trust them, the action could be done. Or they might don't need it. With Lyssa's magic it's easy to get in and mess with the charr's supply line. GW2 even showed that one Risen could use illusion magic to sneak into to disguise as a military official for a couple of days, and misled the PC to bomb Pact crew.

Again, "coulda, woulda, shoulda, didn't."

22 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

The fact is clear that the charr weren't stronger than the humans, they razed Ascalon simply because The Searing and they caught them by surprise+the Guild Wars. Orr didn't get the Searing, got time to prepare and they didn't lose much in the Guild Wars.

Charr are absolutely physically stronger than humans, and Orrians were worn out from fighting for about a century with Kryta and Ascalon on top of having the have a hasty retreat to beat the charr marching on their doorstep and prepare. They got overconfident and they got surprised.

And who says "they didn't lose much in the Guild Wars". In fact, because of Orr's involvement, the Third Guild War was stated to be the bloodiest of the three.

"But Ascalon and Kryta brought their war to the nation. Orr rose to defend itself, escalating the conflict and resulting in casualties that eclipsed those of the previous two Guild Wars combined."

And I highly doubt that line means that Orr had few casualties - if Orr had decimated Kryta and Ascalon to the point of forcing casualties worse than both previous wars combined, Orr would have won well before the Searing took place. It was heavy losses on all three kingdoms - losses that the charr didn't incur because they blitzkrieged Ascalon, Kryta, and Orr.

 

 

[Kalavier.1097]

8 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

So according to you, charr use god magic too, because they use the same skills of the same name that 'proved it'.

Gotcha.

You know, titans are made by Abaddon/tied to him right?

And the titans gave Charr magics/gave them better magics then they had. So in a way, the Charr were also using God magic!

[Narcemus.1348]

12 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Indeed, the Ascalonians were in no position to stop a large charr army sweeping through their lands in the weeks following the Searing.

However, the notion that Ascalonians didn't have any food and water seems silly. While they couldn't farm due to the destroyed soil and irrigation, there is plenty evidence of surviving aloe seeds and treants, as well as wildlife like moas and skale. This is ample food to hunt for; given that there is a quest in the Northern Shiverpeaks for reufgees hunting aloe to eat their seeds, I imagine that might have become a stable diet for Ascalonians after the Searing.

As for water, while their lakes and rivers were kittened over even by 1072 AE, rainwater would have still been healthy and clean - or at least clean enough to drink. Add some barrels to store water and filters just in case and you got clean water to survive off of.

And we don't really know the state of those rivers and lakes after the events of Prophecies - they never updated the maps for the very brief quest returning to Ascalon with EotN, nor any moment with War in Kryta. So we don't really know if the tar lakes were there for 2 years, or for the full 20 that humanity had to struggle and lose to survive.

That said, the poor but existing quality of food and water is no doubt a large reason why the Ascalonians were slowly succumbing to the charr, where it wasn't uncommon for charr to be south of the wall by 1078 AE as per that aforementioned EotN quest.

I didn't post that as an actual disbelief that humans could survive in such a situation, humans find a way in some of the harshest environments we've ever seen. I was merely trying to point out Ascalon's severely weakened state after the Searing. Perhaps the last sentence about finding Ascalon's survivability less believable than the Charr taking out Orr was unnecessary. It was meant more in jest than anything else.

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

You know, titans are made by Abaddon/tied to him right?

And the titans gave Charr magics/gave them better magics then they had. So in a way, the Charr were also using God magic!

Titans were made by a servant of Dhuum if I remember correctly given into the service of Abaddon. There's never any proof that Titans have any amount of God power. 

11 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Ascalon even came out to defeat the titan invasion with PC's help. Why would you think they didn't have anything to fight back?

They also got the secret weapon on hand to cast Foefire if needed.

Because the charr weren't that powerful, they mostly caught Ascalon by surprise and the Searing, without it, their forces weren't that strong.

I forgot what it was like to be argued with by someone whose Fanon is something they refuse to give up on even when it is directly refuted time and time again. Not worth my time, lol.