New to Elementalist - some questions (Weaver related)

[Dreddo.9865]

Hello been playing a lot of time but... as many, was intimidated by the "many buttons" of elementalist and have stayed away from the class. As of late I tried to put some effort and try to learn how elementalist is played. Core and Tempest have been straightforward (just a little of playing time with Core) and sustain in open world (did all LWS3 maps exploration, doing events, metas, etc) with Tempest (using Signet as heal) was pretty effective.

But with weaver things have changed. Here is the build I use:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGkAwilNwkYUsMmJO6KZvNA-DSRYBRDWMszoNJQFKAZeZAgKA-e
(from Metabattle)

I want to play power to add some difficulty (Condi Tempest was fun but easy). Thing is I am doing now LWS4 maps and here you have Joko's minions among others condi bombing you, hitting hard too. I have great problems sustaining even against a party of three (3) enemies - like a Veteran and a couple of his allies.

I understand (?) the build is a bit 'glassy' and the aim should be to kill first, before you getting killed. Also I am unaware of potential healing combos or ways of how to effectively play the class since this is melee. This is about Open World.

Any ideas, recommendations or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Dreddo.9865

[AliamRationem.5172]

4 hours ago, Dreddo.9865 said:

Hello been playing a lot of time but... as many, was intimidated by the "many buttons" of elementalist and have stayed away from the class. As of late I tried to put some effort and try to learn how elementalist is played. Core and Tempest have been straightforward (just a little of playing time with Core) and sustain in open world (did all LWS3 maps exploration, doing events, netas, etc) with Tempest (using Signet as heal) was pretty effective.

But with weaver things have changed. Here is the build I use:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGkAwilNwkYUsMmJO6KZvNA-DSRYBRDWMszoNJQFKAZeZAgKA-e
(from Metabattle)

I want to play power to add some difficulty (Condi Tempest was fun but easy). Thing is I am doing now LWS4 maps and here you have Joko's minions among others condi bombing you, hitting hard too. I have great problems sustaining even against a party of three (3) enemies - like a Veteran and a couple of his allies.

I understand (?) the build is a bit 'glassy' and the aim should be to kill first, before you getting killed. Also I am unaware of potential healing combos or ways of how to effectively play the class since this is melee. This is about Open World.

Any ideas, recommendations or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.

I don't really like this build.  It has a power boost tied to might with no might generation outside of combos.  You do have access to 4 blasts, but that assumes you'll be using both your heal and one extra evade for might generation, which probably isn't ideal when you're struggling with sustain.  This also competes with your only other significant source of healing which are combos on the water field from riptide. 

Without the might you lose 150-300 power on top of not having might, which along with the power lost to marauder gear likely results in mediocre damage, especially if you're having to play defense due to the lack of sustain.  It seems to rely on quite a bit of wishful thinking outside of the ideal scenario where you can pump 4 blasts into a fire field and melt everything down while your power is boosted by 600+ points.  That you're struggling even with small groups of trash mobs suggests that probably isn't working out for you most of the time.  The relic also doesn't make a lot of sense as you only have primordial stance and weave self to proc it.

If you wanted the best performance, I think a condi build would improve both your damage and sustain.  But if you want to stick with power maybe consider swapping out the air sigil for sigil of battle.  That'll get you a quick 5 stacks ramping up to a consistent 10 stacks to keep your might above the threshold for Power Overwhelming while only requiring an easy two blasts to get it started. 

Swap out signet of air for stone resonance.  If you use it properly, stability is better than a stunbreak anyway and the hefty barrier will cover your burst so you don't have to interrupt it with dodges.  It also gives you a couple more stance charges for synergy with your relic and if you need more defense you can always swap into bolstered elements and really pile on the barrier.  I'd also swap in the signet heal.  With barrier buying you extra time to live, that should be a nice source of passive recovery for any health you do lose.

  

 

[SeTect.5918]

I will never understand why the open world builds on metabattle run so low defense. 

Like trailblazers deals like 85-90% of vipers damage while having far more defense. 

No meta is going to fail because you deal like 85% of the normal damage. I also noticed that lots of metas dont run enough support players to get enough healing or boons. So running a build specifically made for solo play which can generate its own boons even deals more damage than a full glass build without boons. Not speaking about all metas but especially in metas where players have to split you often have to bring your own boons (such as auric basin meta).

And in solo play, as ele suggesting to run (almost) full glass is kinda strange imo, no clue why metabattle does that. 

You should run celestials or trailblazers in open world if you want to survive something while still dealing good damage. 

I saw tons of players on this forum who just put in open world metabattle builds, tried them out and it didnt work out for them so they ask for help on the forum because these builds simply dont have enough defense for actual open world which also includes harder bosses like those of Champion rank or groups of mobs with high damage.

@AliamRationem.5172 has some nice Videos on Youtube of some Champion rank Solos with the builds in the description of his videos. But since he is more into weaver than me, you should probably ask him which one of these he suggests you. https://youtube.com/@HardcoreCasualGW2?si=KHzkPXeCadyJRAx4

 

If you want to play catalyst i got a build in the description on that one:

The builds in the description includes both the build used in the video and its updated version. Since the newer version offers more defense and damage, i would suggest you to use that one. ^^ i just have the old version still in so people dont get confused because the skills in the video are different to the newer version. 

(Lord Hizen on Youtube also has some good open world builds)

Ah, since you prefer power i would suggest you cele gear. Cele still offers good power damage while it also offers good healing, boon duration and condi dmg. Pure power builds normally fail or have a very hard time on harder enemies because of lack of sustain. 

Hope it helped in any way^^

Edited November 23, 2023 by SeTect.5918

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 minute ago, SeTect.5918 said:

I will never understand why the open world builds on metabattle run so low defense. 

Like trailblazers deals like 85-90% of vipers damage while having far more defense. 

No meta is going to fail because you deal like 85% of the normal damage. I also noticed that lots of metas dont run enough support players to get enough healing or boons. So running a build specifically made for solo play which can generate its own boons even deals more damage than a full glass build without boons. Not speaking about all metas but especially in metas where players have to split you often have to bring your own boons (such as auric basin meta).

And in solo play, as ele suggesting to run (almost) full glass is kinda strange imo, no clue why metabattle does that. 

You should run celestials or trailblazers in open world if you want to survive something while still dealing good damage. 

I saw tons of players on this forum who just put in open world metabattle builds, tried them out and it didnt work out for them so they ask for help on the forum because these builds simply dont have enough defense for actual open world which also includes harder bosses like those of Champion rank or groups of mobs with high damage.

@AliamRationem.5172 has some nice Videos on Youtube of some Champion rank Solos with the builds in the description of his videos. But since he is more into weaver than me, you should probably ask him which one of these he suggests you. https://youtube.com/@HardcoreCasualGW2?si=KHzkPXeCadyJRAx4

If you want great damage with a ton of passive sustain, trailblazer or celestial are hard to beat.  25k DPS  while having over 3k armor and 20k health makes life pretty easy, and you can easily add full uptime protection to this build without giving up much damage for even better passive sustain.

 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

For the build, I'd recommend either the Healing Glyph of the Healing Signet over Arcane Brilliance.  Overall they have much greater healing potential.  Likewise, I'd recommend Arcane Shield over Signet of Air.  The blocks are much more valuable than a one time blind.  I'd recommend Superior Elements over Master's Fortitude, since Weakness is quite the debuff to incoming damage, and the extra crit chance will help out.  I would also take Ferocious Winds over Zephyr's Boon.  

I won't lie, PoF is one of the harder zones for Ele.  The enemies travel in packs and have annoying abilities to deal with.  Tactics-wise, what I would do is sit in Earth/Fire, and open with Sandstorm to blind the enemies.  Then, I activate Lava Skin, Swap to Fire/Earth, and begin doing the standard damage rotation.  This will give you stability, barrier, blind enemies, stun enemies, and also blast yourself plenty of might for the opener.  The Lava Skin will pulse weakness to all enemies around you, reducing damage that much further  Doing this will let you beat just about anything without a break bar but Arcane Shield is there in case they're still getting through somehow.

For a more personal taste, I recommend learning how to use Fresh Air.  It does slightly less damage than Bolt to the Heart, but it comes with the added advantage of being able to swap into other elements more quickly for their utilities (cleanses, evades, crowd control) as well as inflicting more weakness due to having quick access to more dual skills.  The rotation is very similar to how Bolt to the Heart plays, but after you've done the Fire/Fire part you'll do one of two things:

• Go into Earth/Fire and follow up with Lava Skin, Earthen Vortex, then tap Air For Earthquake + Churning Earth, then Tap Air again to double into air
• If the Earth Skills are on cooldown (usually every other loop), you'll go into Water/Fire, use Twin Strike, then mash yourself into double air.  You can hang in Air/Water a bit to use Cleansing Wave if necessary.

If you want to use CC at any point, go into Earth/X and then quickly go into Air/Earth.  This will give you access to Polaric Leap, Gale Strike, Earthquake, then upon subsequently double attuning to air you'll have Updraft for a total of 732 defiance damage.  Also know that, if an extra dodge is needed, there there are dodging skills both in Water 2 and Earth 2. 

[Dreddo.9865]

Thank you all for your replies. As mentioned I found condi Tempest very easy (Fire Aura so broken^^) that's why I opted for the power build. I don't have SotO so I have to use an "allowed" off-hand weapon, and went for dagger

I usually open with Fire #2 to create the field, then Fire #4 to update the field before going to Air and Primordial Stance then maybe Earth sometimes if I need to play more defensively but still the damage I get is high and usually I have to go Earth-Water to sustain (without working most of the times ^^).

Switching to Celestial makes sense and I will give it a go - damage atm isn't bad and Crit Chance with Fury at 93% which means I crit almost every hit. Guess power and precision will go down but if survivability goes up it 'll be worth it.

Big problem is against condis, I find cleansing or even tanking condis isn't that good on that build, even when I upped Vitality with Master's Fortitude.

Any suggestions on condi cleanses and combos for healing? 

Thank you all for your input.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Dreddo.9865

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 minute ago, Dreddo.9865 said:

Thank you all for your replies. As mentioned I found condi Tempest very easy (Fire Aura so broken^^) that's why I opted for the power build. I don't have SotO so I have to use an "allowed" off-hand weapon, and went for dagger

Big problem is against condis, I find cleansing or even tanking condis isn't that good on that build, even when I upped Vitality with Master's Fortitude.

I usually open with Fire #2 to create the field, then Fire #4 to update the field before going to Air and Primordial Stance then maybe Earth sometimes if I need to play more defensively but still the damage I get is high and usually I have to go Earth-Water to sustain (without working most of the times ^^).

Switching to Celestial makes sense and I will give it a go - damage atm isn't bad and Crit Chance with Fury at 93% which means I crit almost every hit. Guess power and precision will go down but if survivability goes up it 'll be worth it.

Any suggestions on condi cleanses and combos for healing? 

Thank you all for your input.

 

You could always use cleansing sigil.  There's also the fire trait to cleanse on aura/transmute, but that's giving up a lot of damage.

[Nup.4591]

I find ether renewal to be an underrated heal skill. It has a very short cooldown and cleanses a lot of conditions. The cast time is the only downside, but open world you cna definitely afford that.

[AliamRationem.5172]

41 minutes ago, Nup.4591 said:

I find ether renewal to be an underrated heal skill. It has a very short cooldown and cleanses a lot of conditions. The cast time is the only downside, but open world you cna definitely afford that.

It's a strong heal and cleanse on a very reasonable cooldown.  But yeah, that cast time is rough.  And I just don't have it in me to pass on the healing signet when playing weaver.

[Solaries.9065]

Wow, being a main weaver I can tell you that this build is plain horrible and will make you die a lot.

You could probably get away with it but only after you get really experienced with the class.

Weave self is just trash for solo play,

Glyph of storms its a slow cast that leaves you open that wont be usefull most of the time.

You can increase your survival just with 3 steps

 

1-Use full celestial gear

2-replace weave self with glyph of elemental

3-replace glyph of storms with stone resonance

 

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

If you specifically have problem dealing with condi bombs, switch Burning Precision to Burning Fire in the Fire traitline (the first tier), and bring Cleansing Fire for utility if you like. Burning Precision is a condi trait, your power build gains nothing from it. 

Also LW4 map design doesn't encourage the "kill first before they kill you" mentality, that's an old misconception from the HoT days that's somehow still stuck around. PoF mobs don't hit as hard as HoT mobs, but they have way more HP and they chip your defense away with conditions. It's far more important to bring sustain on these maps than trying to beat through them.  

[Eddbopkins.2630]

Unfortunately pve favors condi builds. Catalyst power can work since it's more aoe based. 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Eddbopkins.2630

[Dreddo.9865]

Just a small update. Your advice helped a lot but still weaver was the most disappointing of all the ele specs I tried so far. Now I am on Catalyst and it is so satisfying to play with this spec. I am using Lord Hizen's Celestial Catalyst build (Water instead of Earth compared to AliamRationem's and with hammer) the dps is good but the survivability is very high - even compared to necro who I main. Now I am finally having some enjoyment with elementalist again. 🙂

Again, thank you all very much.

[Ace.1784]

1 hour ago, Dreddo.9865 said:

Just a small update. Your advice helped a lot but still weaver was the most disappointing of all the ele specs I tried so far. Now I am on Catalyst and it is so satisfying to play with this spec. I am using Lord Hizen's Celestial Catalyst build (Water instead of Earth compared to AliamRationem's and with hammer) the dps is good but the survivability is very high - even compared to necro who I main. Now I am finally having some enjoyment with elementalist again. 🙂

Again, thank you all very much.

This makes sense, Catalyst has a ton of survivability baked in.

I usually only play Weaver if I'm in a role play mood. The weaver specific advice you got here is correct though, if you're having trouble with condis then add a condi clear from either Fire trait (Burning Fire), utilities (Cleansing Fire), heal (Ether Renewal), or sigil (Cleansing Sigil). Don't be rigid, adapt to what you're fighting.

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Ace.1784 said:

This makes sense, Catalyst has a ton of survivability baked in.

I usually only play Weaver if I'm in a role play mood. The weaver specific advice you got here is correct though, if you're having trouble with condis then add a condi clear from either Fire trait (Burning Fire), utilities (Cleansing Fire), heal (Ether Renewal), or sigil (Cleansing Sigil). Don't be rigid, adapt to what you're fighting.

Yeah, if you're still struggling with sustain running full trailblazer with elemental shielding and cleansing sigil, I think it may just be an issue of learning how to play weaver.  With 3.1k armor, over 20k health, near 100% protection uptime, and plenty of cleansing, the sustain is pretty extreme.  If that is the issue, it's also worth noting that scepter is significantly easier to learn than sword as it's ranged and you deal your damage in just fire and earth instead of fire, earth, and air.  But hey, if hammer catalyst is your jam, then go with that!

[Dreddo.9865]

Thanks for your replies.

I mentioned earlier, that condi tempest  with scepter/warhorn (equipped with full Viper set) was too easy that's why I opted to try sword (melee) power weaver. I am not very familiar with the class but it seems it favors condi builds for Open World/ solo content a lot more than Power builds? Even Celestial 'power' weaver didn't seem very efficient.

Also is it only me that I find rotating among elements and dps'ing/ sustaining with hammer Catalyst is easier, compared to Weaver?

Edited December 7, 2023 by Dreddo.9865

[AliamRationem.5172]

16 minutes ago, Dreddo.9865 said:

Thanks for your replies.

I mentioned earlier, that condi tempest  with scepter/warhorn (equipped with mixed rampager/ trailblazer if I recall correctly) was too easy that's why I opted to try sword (melee) power weaver. I am not very familiar with the class but it seems it favors condi builds for Open World/ solo content a lot more than Power builds? Even Celestial 'power' weaver didn't seem very efficient.

Also is it only me that I find rotating among elements and dps'ing/ sustaining with hammer Catalyst is easier, compared to Weaver?

I don't know that catalyst has any inherent sustain advantage over weaver other than the ability to rotate to water without losing DPS.  However, it does have better access to boons which is important for a power build in solo play as your damage tends to be pretty low without them, especially if you're also sacrificing for sustain. 

By comparison, I find that a condi build like trailblazer weaver can deal similar or even better damage over time to fully offensive power builds with boons (up to 25k dps) in solo play without quickness, fury, and consistent might uptime.

 

 

[Ace.1784]

On 12/7/2023 at 8:10 AM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I don't know that catalyst has any inherent sustain advantage over weaver other than the ability to rotate to water without losing DPS.  However, it does have better access to boons which is important for a power build in solo play as your damage tends to be pretty low without them, especially if you're also sacrificing for sustain. 

By comparison, I find that a condi build like trailblazer weaver can deal similar or even better damage over time to fully offensive power builds with boons (up to 25k dps) in solo play without quickness, fury, and consistent might uptime.

 

 

Confirming it is the boons, ability to swap to water without losing dps, and the AOE weakness access Catalyst has that makes it much easier to sustain. The heal is also very useful at clearing condi's without the channel penalty of ether renewal.

That said, AliamRationem is right about trailblazer weaver being high reward with a lot of extra cushion, especially compared to berserker/power builds.