Countering Warrior Side Noders

[Chase.8415]

I typically play support, but recently I feel like it is a lost cause because the matchmaking will literally group silver and low gold players in the same match as high g3 and low plat and quite frankly I don't feel like I can carry with support anymore. 

I have also noticed that a lot of the top players and plat meta involve pushing side nodes, in particular warrior is challenging for me to figure out how to counter.

My teammates will literally spend like 5 minutes, dying to said warriors....

Can someone explain to me hard counters to warrior side noders so I can carry my teammates?

[Last Crab.6054]

To counter a side node war?

EZ

Have the rest of your team ignore the point they are on and take all of the skirmishes they are not at, which should be all or most of them.

"Don't try to take the point"

[ccccc.4963]

Support isn't a real role unless you're actively communicating your cds with a dps

2 hours ago, Chase.8415 said:

Can someone explain to me hard counters to warrior side noders so I can carry my teammates?

Log power roamer win first teamfight find your quickest matchups and spam push them until map state is home/mid safe with your 5 contesting far/spawn ->mid path

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by ccccc.4963

[Sahne.6950]

My best way to deal with a competent war sidenoder is to just lock him on a sidenode.

play d/p thief for example. 

The second he wants to move off the node, you step towards it.  He will see it and is forced to stay.    

keep on running towards the node, and then Pistol5+blindingpowder+Heartseeker.    Use that long stealth to get out of his vision and join the midfight again.

He cant know for sure you left his homenode and he is forced to stay.        If he then dares to leave the node again, you rinse and repeat.

You can lock him on the node and completly take him out of the game that way.  

Yes he will keep that node for now... but your team will be in a 5v4 fighting for the remaining two spots.  in theory your team should win the midfight and be able to snowball and eventually push him off the node in a 2v1 or 3v1.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Goosekilla.2796]

I like how all these answers are basically "you can't"...

Anet maybe notice that warrior might be in a bit too good of a duelist position and tune it back a bit, please? I was pretty surprised to see what looked to me like mainly buffs for warrior in this balance patch.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

8 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

My best way to deal with a competent war sidenoder is to just lock him on a sidenode.

play d/p thief for example. 

The second he wants to move off the node, you step towards it.  He will see it and is forced to stay.    

keep on running towards the node, and then Pistol5+blindingpowder+Heartseeker.    Use that long stealth to get out of his vision and join the midfight again.

He cant know for sure you left his homenode and he is forced to stay.        If he then dares to leave the node again, you rinse and repeat.

You can lock him on the node and completly take him out of the game that way.  

Yes he will keep that node for now... but your team will be in a 5v4 fighting for the remaining two spots.  in theory your team should win the midfight and be able to snowball and eventually push him off the node in a 2v1 or 3v1.

Correctly functioning thief brain on display. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

12 hours ago, Chase.8415 said:

Can someone explain to me hard counters to warrior side noders so I can carry my teammates?

If it a skill issue, you probably can't--that's more the matchmaker being ridiculous than anything.  

If want to fight them directly, then going to need to learn kiting/positioning to keep the node at neutral or better yet, keep it capped at your color and stall them.  If they have it and you can't decap it, then best to ignore the node.  

[Chase.8415]

Honestly I don't even care if it ends up being a complete stalemate, I just need something that can counter enough to at least decap the point. I can fight 10 minutes with no kills or deaths if that's what it takes to counter the build.

[Chase.8415]

7 hours ago, Goosekilla.2796 said:

I like how all these answers are basically "you can't"...

Anet maybe notice that warrior might be in a bit too good of a duelist position and tune it back a bit, please? I was pretty surprised to see what looked to me like mainly buffs for warrior in this balance patch.

Yeah I am shocked there isn't any hard counter, like for example Necromancer gets pretty hard countered by Willbender. It's really difficult for Necromancer to win against that build, regardless of the skill level. I guess warriors have nothing like that, in fact now thinking of it, a lot of builds have hard counters.

[ccccc.4963]

The post is framed from the pov of a support player (in ranked too)

15 hours ago, Goosekilla.2796 said:

all these answers are basically "you can't"...

...1v1 a warrior on support? 

7 hours ago, Chase.8415 said:

I can fight 10 minutes with no kills or deaths if that's what it takes to counter the build.

You're just pivoting from being a dependant/useless role (support) to another equally dependant role

 

[Goosekilla.2796]

5 hours ago, ccccc.4963 said:

..1v1 a warrior on support? 

My read of OP was that they have been running support, but are asking what is something else they could run that would enable them to counter the warrior duelist builds that are kind of terrorizing ranked right now. The other responses in this thread seemed to understand that as well. Still haven't seen an actual answer to that.

Is there anything (support or otherwise - literally anything) that is a specific counter to duelist warrior in an actual fight (i.e. not just "it's going to win every encounter, so you have to avoid them")? I understand that strategically avoidance is valid, but avoidance should never be the only answer. Everything should have some counter in actual engagements. Rock/ paper/scissors sort of logic.

[Mythras.2091]

Im pretty good against them with boonhate procmancer. When i see stab, i boon hate, when block, use well, when possible elit-shroud-massacre 😛 Every boon and condi heavy build cracks under this build for me, but im only g3-p1 🙂

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSwAYpjlJwyYKMRWJOuLbNVA-DaoOjMlCdrCc8XBAA

Edited December 1, 2023 by Mythras.2091

[Chase.8415]

6 hours ago, ccccc.4963 said:

The post is framed from the pov of a support player (in ranked too)

...1v1 a warrior on support? 

You're just pivoting from being a dependant/useless role (support) to another equally dependant role

 

I am a former support player, I have given up on being support in this meta because I feel like its a lost cause because of the large gaps in matchmaking plus the damage output is crazy right now.

[Marxx.5021]

On 11/30/2023 at 8:19 AM, Chase.8415 said:

I typically play support, but recently I feel like it is a lost cause because the matchmaking will literally group silver and low gold players in the same match as high g3 and low plat and quite frankly I don't feel like I can carry with support anymore. 

I have also noticed that a lot of the top players and plat meta involve pushing side nodes, in particular warrior is challenging for me to figure out how to counter.

My teammates will literally spend like 5 minutes, dying to said warriors....

Can someone explain to me hard counters to warrior side noders so I can carry my teammates?

Only hard counter is not to play sPvP.

[ccccc.4963]

5 hours ago, Goosekilla.2796 said:

My read of OP was that they have been running support, but are asking what is something else they could run that would enable them to counter the warrior duelist builds that are kind of terrorizing ranked right now. The other responses in this thread seemed to understand that as well. Still haven't seen an actual answer to that.

Is there anything (support or otherwise - literally anything) that is a specific counter to duelist warrior in an actual fight (i.e. not just "it's going to win every encounter, so you have to avoid them")? I understand that strategically avoidance is valid, but avoidance should never be the only answer. Everything should have some counter in actual engagements. Rock/ paper/scissors sort of logic.

Yeah the rock paper scissors answer to duelist is to win the map before it ever gets to a relevant duel for them? You win mid and snowball your teamfight to whatever highvalue player(s) the other team has -- bonus point is to avoid playing 3 nodes if they have more mobile roamers than your team

Why cap your ceiling on a do nothing 1v1 for 2min build when you can moonwalk the map on superspeed 100-0ing go's? 

Edited December 1, 2023 by ccccc.4963

[Goosekilla.2796]

1 hour ago, ccccc.4963 said:

Why cap your ceiling on a do nothing 1v1 for 2min build when you can moonwalk the map on superspeed 100-0ing go's? 

Honestly this is what I do. Scrapper or chrono, zip around and delete people. It's fine and gets the job done in terms of securing a normal win rate. It's just really not a good answer. It feels like saying "yeah, we know we changed the rules so that rock now also beats paper, but you can play tag instead!"

Another problem is that they aren't really a "do nothing 1v1". I'd maybe be ok with that (I remember druid being like this at one point). The big problem is that they actually also add quite a bit of value to the team fight. They're practically invincible without significant skill gap in 1v1, but they can also be pretty decisive in xvx (especially thinking about the zerker build here). They're not particularly slow either - plenty of swiftness access and several mobility skills. Sure, a good team comp with strong strategic execution will nullify the impact of a single warrior. But that still isn't an answer to how warrior can be countered. Boon corrupt necro seemed like a good answer from Mythras, but I'm honestly not sure how that works given how much cleanse and cc warrior has.

[Flowki.7194]

On 11/30/2023 at 7:44 AM, Last Crab.6054 said:

To counter a side node war?

EZ

Have the rest of your team ignore the point they are on and take all of the skirmishes they are not at, which should be all or most of them.

"Don't try to take the point"

No one spec should be so powerful that the goto tactic of an entire team is to give up a point. Firstly, sPVP is mostly randoms, second, what if the enemy team has 2 such point holders? you zerg point to point and get back capped, split up and 2v1 the side noders, leaving one point to get zerked by enemy? etc. You are expexting far higher level coordination just for 2 duelists who have enough braincelss to not goto the same point as each other. Its kitten, and the result of low skill floor specs having their defensive numbers bumped up to unreasonable levels.

 

Group fights are a mess, necro/coregaurd/DH aoe spam etc. Side noding is a mess, high sustain high mobility specs (basically warrior in general) or specs like virt, garunteeing a 40+ second dual even when the virt doesnt appear to have a functioning dodge key.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Nabbut.7480]

An answer to any duelist is to zerg him.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

4 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Group fights are a mess, necro/coregaurd/DH aoe spam etc. Side noding is a mess, high sustain high mobility specs (basically warrior in general) or specs like virt, garunteeing a 40+ second dual even when the virt doesnt appear to have a functioning dodge key.

This is true, if enemy comp has scourge/core guard then only answer is to play sides as no way you are getting mid.

2 hours ago, Nabbut.7480 said:

An answer to any duelist is to zerg him.

This works if you can kill them quickly, otherwise you are leaving 2 node uncontested--will lose by points majority of time if you do this.  As all enemy has to do is come join you then if you lose, will get spawn camped.  

[Flowki.7194]

18 hours ago, Nabbut.7480 said:

An answer to any duelist is to zerg him.

The entire concept of a duelist needs deleted from the game. It is a team game, and should not come down to specs that dominate 1v1, or else this is the result.. the requirement of a zerg just to kill an average duelist. The zerg is working together, but the duelist is not. Solo guy forcing team work just becuase of the spec, now think about reward for effort ratio in that context, especially when the likes of warrior/virt mesmers etc have such a low skill floor. 

 

The only justification for a duelist to dominate 1v1s is if it is actually very difficult to play, high skill floor. Some engi specs could achieve that status, hammer cata already does. But even then, its still toxic, becuase all specs should have a high skill floor and such an advantedge should not exist, only skill.

[Lighter.5631]

1 hour ago, Flowki.7194 said:

The entire concept of a duelist needs deleted from the game. It is a team game, and should not come down to specs that dominate 1v1, or else this is the result.. the requirement of a zerg just to kill an average duelist. The zerg is working together, but the duelist is not. Solo guy forcing team work just becuase of the spec, now think about reward for effort ratio in that context, especially when the likes of warrior/virt mesmers etc have such a low skill floor. 

 

The only justification for a duelist to dominate 1v1s is if it is actually very difficult to play, high skill floor. Some engi specs could achieve that status, hammer cata already does. But even then, its still toxic, becuase all specs should have a high skill floor and such an advantedge should not exist, only skill.

..run your own duelist and beat him 1v1..if you losing, you are out skilled..

the answer is so simple..be better, there's so many ways to counter a side noder, but you choose to be ignorant.

imagine a role that requires enemy to adapt, just like a support or a stealth roamer, but yea, support and stealth roamer are fine because you can pretend like you don't see them

also you will never get rid of side noding as long as there's more than 1 nodes, even if they delete all current side noder builds, people will just plant more sustainable roamer to side node duty, until there are no more DPS build to delete hahahaha

Edited December 2, 2023 by Lighter.5631

[Zagerus.8675]

The main goal when fighting warriors should be to deny Adrenal Health and Cleansing Ire as much as possible. Only one set of burst skills in the game will give free Adren Health just for using the skills (and not hitting anything,) and they are both on longbow. You must dodge/blind/block burst skills to get the edge, no questions.

For Spellbreakers, make sure Full Counter hits nothing but air again, and again, and again. Blind can be exceptionally powerful vs. FC, provided resistance from Resilient Roll is not present. You can also interrupt FC by converting the stab from FC into fear. You can also interrupt it with a beefed up Steal + boon removal + daze trait. Also, bind your stow weapon key and get good at using it.

For Condi zerkers - a ton of the skills in both weapons are heavy hitters @ melee range. 3/5 skills in the Longbow kit need the war to be facing forward to use, so stay behind them when it's logical to do so. Also, Shield Master means that you need to play patiently with your ranged skills. Abuse unblockables vs mace/sword.

For Bladesworn - Similar to condizerker, a ton of the skills are loaded at melee range. For the pistol burst, the dmg occurs in a small area, so you can run around the back/out from the bladesworn to avoid most of dmg. Treat it like a burst skill, but don't waste a dodge - just use movement. Use patiently placed auto-attacks to get rid of aegis.

Basically just play thoughtfully and don't feel pressured to do a PvE rotation. Not getting hit by bursts usually will end w/ a dead war or a decap 🙂

[Flowki.7194]

21 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

..run your own duelist and beat him 1v1..if you losing, you are out skilled..

the answer is so simple..be better, there's so many ways to counter a side noder, but you choose to be ignorant.

imagine a role that requires enemy to adapt, just like a support or a stealth roamer, but yea, support and stealth roamer are fine because you can pretend like you don't see them

also you will never get rid of side noding as long as there's more than 1 nodes, even if they delete all current side noder builds, people will just plant more sustainable roamer to side node duty, until there are no more DPS build to delete hahahaha

Winning or losing a 1v1 is litterally besides the point. The point is that 1 spec, any spec, dominating 1v1s by design, is a bad concept, and leads to bad game design overall, as such specs do not encourage teamwork (See random warrior going far all game, becuase he has convinced himself he is a hard carry). You obviously play a duelist spec, Ive played them too, no need to get personal and defensive about it. But plainly put, low effort duelist specs are a real problem, they require 40+ seconds to kill even in the hands of a bad player. Have you ever faught a bad hammer cata, or hollow/vindi that took that long to kill?

 

I played a fair bit of hammer cata, and my large errors on it were often punished quickly, like it should be. At the same time, when I go up against the likes of warriors, virts, SBs etc.. and see how much dmg they are face tanking with with raw mitigation or 0 0 0 0, how little they are dodging, I can't help but compare that to hammer cata, knowing the guy would have been dead 30 seconds ago. There is no consistancy of effort/risk across specs in this game, and regardless of my personal skill level, it is very obvious to see, by playing as and against such specs. Why should I be able to jump on something like blade, and after a few hours, face tank my way throuogh a 1v2? where I would die in <10 seconds on hammer cata even after playing it for months? Thats why I rarely play hammer cata now, not worth the effort when there are specs that do it FAR easier at the same skill level.

 

Look around bud, 90% of the playerbase are on core gaurd, warrior, bunker mesmer, SB/condi or power/scourge. All of those builds are on the "easier" side of the game, they all have front loaded face tank mechanics, or sustained facetank mechanics, which make them very hard to punish fast for blatent mistakes. Now, turning any of those specs into a duelist that can dominate 1v1s, is catagorically kitten. Unless you are playing one, Id rather lose.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[ccccc.4963]

21 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

the answer is so simple..be better, there's so many ways to counter a side noder, but you choose to be ignorant.

They're a known troll on eu apparently-- some do nothing tablet vindi player

[Flowki.7194]

2 hours ago, ccccc.4963 said:

They're a known troll on eu apparently-- some do nothing tablet vindi player

Playing vent rev is a troll?