New player here. Is Mesmer supposed to be this squishy?

[Mevelios.4809]

26 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

And you would push them into Zerk/Assassin/Viper gear which is specifically tuned to a SINGLE build whereas Celestial is literally the all around generalist build. I have literally run celestial gear since I started BECAUSE it is a generalist build. I can DPS, I can condi, and I can support because I don't have any bad stats. Am I doing the same DPS as someone in Zerk, or the same condi as someone in Viper? Of course not. Not the point.

I can understand the comment though, you stated before you were only doing open world stuff - anything goes there. In raids I don't want any celestial, ascended or not; I'd rather have exotic specialist gear, such as zerk/viper/harrier/minstrel 😉

[ascii.1369]

13 minutes ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

I can understand the comment though, you stated before you were only doing open world stuff - anything goes there. In raids I don't want any celestial, ascended or not; I'd rather have exotic specialist gear, such as zerk/viper/harrier/minstrel 😉

True but the percentage of players raiding is probably single digits. Unless the new player already knows that raiding will be the goal I don't think it's worth recommending raiding gear.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

1 hour ago, Zenith.7301 said:

Because there is no room for improvement or learning mechanics when you give them a misleading crutch that has no place outside open world solo PVE. Good luck joining raids and fractals without being immediately kicked the moment their meters tell them your output. Beginners deserve to be given the clear expectations of the game's endgame content.

And those free acquisition and laurel methods are more time consuming than just farming the gold and buying the exotics off the TP.

Thank you. Thank you for this. I'm gonna save this, with your name on it, for every time someone tries to defend the Fractal/Strike/Raid community, because one of two things is true here: Either you're a liar, or the entire Raid community is irredeemably toxic. Now myself, I don't do Raids BECAUSE I know of that toxicity, but it's good to have testimonial proof.

And I'm going to continue to tell new players to go ahead and use Celestial gear. I'll also tell them to stay out of Raids and basically all endgame content, because of people like you.

[SeTect.5918]

1 hour ago, Zenith.7301 said:

Because there is no room for improvement or learning mechanics when you give them a misleading crutch that has no place outside open world solo PVE. Good luck joining raids and fractals without being immediately kicked the moment their meters tell them your output. Beginners deserve to be given the clear expectations of the game's endgame content.

And those free acquisition and laurel methods are more time consuming than just farming the gold and buying the exotics off the TP.

No place outside open world solo pve? Instanced Solo pve!

Jokes aside. Some e specs like harbinger actually work pretty well with cele gear. I was able to bench 35-37k with it. 

Doesn't mean you should go in group content with that gear ofc. If you have the Gold tho, you can buy some exotic cele which is a pretty good start already. (Talking about solo here)

Dire also works as a start on mirage and is kinda cheap. As weapons you can always use the Bandit weapons which cost like 30 silver and have free stat choice. Its a cheap choice which gets you through the story. Rabid also works, probably better than dire because the precision is needed for dueling spec.

But in instanced content you should go for Real dps gear yes.

Edited January 11 by SeTect.5918

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

Celestial is a problem in Raids because of its high amount of Toughness, not because it doesn't do a respectable amount of damage. Certain bosses will prioritize based on the highest Toughness, that's why the designated tank in the group will have it to carry out their duty. Yes that's also why most casual tanks use Celestial. New players coming in with Celestial will not only hinder proper tanks from doing their job, but also unwittingly become the tank themselves and I doubt they want to be tanking on their first few runs.

I've not seen any problem with Celestial in Fractals, as long as the group is clearing the daily Fractal in a reasonable manner (everyone knows the mechanics, no group wipes) then everyone is happy at the end. Yes occasionally there are cute kittens that complain about group DPS or someone's inexperience with certain mechanics, but those are the exceptions, not the norm. The only caveat with Fractals is that power builds and cleaving are much more preferred, so pure condi builds are often not recommended, except for Surf.

In Strikes then as long as you don't claim to be DPS then you can bring whatever. Even as a DPS with Celestial, as long as you can do a reasonable amount (definitely more than 20k, preferably close to 30k) then no one will bat an eye. Again, as long as the squad clears the encounter in a reasonable manner (everyone knows the mechanics, no group wipes) then everyone is happy at the end. People will only start to point finger after a wipe, and usually they will talk about who messed up mechanics more than who did the least DPS. Just don't be the extremely odd cases, like the 2 Reapers I had in my squad that did less than 8k on Cerus and kept dropping puddles that murdered the whole squad.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

Celestial is a problem in Raids because of its high amount of Toughness, not because it doesn't do a respectable amount of damage. Certain bosses will prioritize based on the highest Toughness, that's why the designated tank in the group will have it to carry out their duty. Yes that's also why most casual tanks use Celestial. New players coming in with Celestial will not only hinder proper tanks from doing their job, but also unwittingly become the tank themselves and I doubt they want to be tanking on their first few runs.

I've not seen any problem with Celestial in Fractals, as long as the group is clearing the daily Fractal in a reasonable manner (everyone knows the mechanics, no group wipes) then everyone is happy at the end. Yes occasionally there are cute kittens that complain about group DPS or someone's inexperience with certain mechanics, but those are the exceptions, not the norm. The only caveat with Fractals is that power builds and cleaving are much more preferred, so pure condi builds are often not recommended, except for Surf.

In Strikes then as long as you don't claim to be DPS then you can bring whatever. Even as a DPS with Celestial, as long as you can do a reasonable amount (definitely more than 20k, preferably close to 30k) then no one will bat an eye. Again, as long as the squad clears the encounter in a reasonable manner (everyone knows the mechanics, no group wipes) then everyone is happy at the end. People will only start to point finger after a wipe, and usually they will talk about who messed up mechanics more than who did the least DPS. Just don't be the extremely odd cases, like the 2 Reapers I had in my squad that did less than 8k on Cerus and kept dropping puddles that murdered the whole squad.

This. Professions which have good hybrid builds generally do fairly well as celestial, especially if they are also boon providers or healers who aren't needed to provide full Harrier's-level healing. If stealing tank isn't a consideration, people are generally fine with people taking celestial if it fits their build.

The contention that new players should be pushed into glass cannon gear is patently ridiculous. First, because glass cannon straight-into-the-deep-end approaches aren't necessarily the best way to learn. Second, buying from the trading post is only really massively cheaper if getting Zhed's armour for a power build, while Ogden's (Carrion) is available for a somewhat tougher hybrid build, and Jatoro's (Dire) if you want to be a really tanky condition build (it's not as good as Trailblazer for fighting champions, but it'd probably do the job for trash) - and possibly more to the point, since the OP mentioned boosts, it's entirely likely that they already have a full celestial set from the level 80 boost. Third, like it or not, not everyone goes into endgame instanced group content, and if anything they're more likely to get into that if they're enjoying their experience in the wider game first rather than being a downstate meme. Fourth, anyone who does will probably want to get ascended armour for it pretty quickly anyway, so whatever exotic armour they had for open world doesn't really make that much of a difference for making the transition. 

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Thank you. Thank you for this. I'm gonna save this, with your name on it, for every time someone tries to defend the Fractal/Strike/Raid community, because one of two things is true here: Either you're a liar, or the entire Raid community is irredeemably toxic. Now myself, I don't do Raids BECAUSE I know of that toxicity, but it's good to have testimonial proof.

And I'm going to continue to tell new players to go ahead and use Celestial gear. I'll also tell them to stay out of Raids and basically all endgame content, because of people like you.

Eh, I have all my raid legendaries, and in my experience, DPS meters typically only start to get referenced if the squad is failing DPS checks and somebody who claimed to be DPS is falling behind the supports (or, worse, the healers).

[Micah.3789]

7 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Either you're a liar, or the entire Raid community is irredeemably toxic. Now myself, I don't do Raids BECAUSE I know of that toxicity, but it's good to have testimonial proof.

One random person doesn't speak for a whole community. While they have some decent points, they support them with ignorant blanket statements that reveal their actual lack of competence. While it's true that celestial gear is often advised to newer players to provide defensive stats and try to compensate for poor play, the fact is that it's a pretty ineffective strategy. Poor use of active defense can't be compensated for with raw stats. This widely perpetuated myth also encourages new players to choose "safer" celestial stats which mostly just reduce their overall potency, and leads them to believe they can ignore mechanics. I HOPE that's what Zenith was referring to... even if they were toxic about it. As for being kicked from raids and fractals... ridiculous. It's very common to see dps performing at <30% of reasonable output, and it's rarely ever even mentioned. They just get carried unless they die or get other people killed. 

I actually use celestial hybrid boon healers almost exclusively, even in CM fractals, strikes, and raids. I'll often do as much or even more damage than "properly" geared dps just because of skill difference.. and that's WHILE doing boons and healing. Suggesting that celestial gear will cause such an output gap that you're instantly booted is beyond ignorant. If you can't easily make many sets in the optimal stats, celestial can allow for some decent flexibility. Any dps that make good use of hybrid power/condi stats can perform pretty well with celestial, especially boon dps that need some concentration anyway. It even works well for healers as long as you're competent and not trying to solo heal a 10 man raid. However, if you're not on a budget, it's best left to hybrid builds that can actually utilize the diverse stats.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 minute ago, Micah.3789 said:

One random person doesn't speak for a whole community. While they have some decent points, they support them with ignorant blanket statements that reveal their actual lack of competence. While it's true that celestial gear is often advised to newer players to provide defensive stats and try to compensate for poor play, the fact is that it's a pretty ineffective strategy. Poor use of active defense can't be compensated for with raw stats. This widely perpetuated myth also encourages new players to choose "safer" celestial stats which mostly just reduce their overall potency, and leads them to believe they can ignore mechanics.

Eh, I notice the difference as a fairly experienced player who does use active defence, and for less experienced players, it can have the benefit of being a little more forgiving. More health means you're less likely to fall to one or two big hits and have more time to realise that pressure is outstripping your sustain in time to do something about it, while having more toughness and healing power means that it takes more pressure to beat your sustain. Damage output being a bit lower does hike the risk back up a bit because the enemy has more time to pressure you, but having at least some of all of the offensive stats, while your offensive boons have higher uptime, can mean that the damage output doesn't drop too much.

That said, learning to use active defences - Distortion, CC, blocks, other defensive weapon skills, mobility, Feedback for projectiles, Well of Precognition for chronos, Mirage Cloak for mirages, Blade Renewal for virtuosos - is also important for mesmers and other professions that rely a lot on active defence such as guardian and thief.

[Micah.3789]

24 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Eh, I notice the difference as a fairly experienced player who does use active defence, and for less experienced players, it can have the benefit of being a little more forgiving.

You seem to have missed my point. I agree that celestial stats make a difference, but not a substantial enough one to be the go-to suggestion to address survival issues. New players are often shocked by GW2's punishing action based combat and struggle to stay alive. Many mechanics are designed to punish poor reactions as opposed to being sustained chip damage that one can manage with more defensive stats. I think it's important for people to learn that especially if they're asking about why they're dying. Giving tanky build suggestions in lieu of playstyle advice is a disservice that sets players up for disappointment and can encourage bad habits.

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, Micah.3789 said:

You seem to have missed my point. I agree that celestial stats make a difference, but not a substantial enough one to be the go-to suggestion to address survival issues. New players are often shocked by GW2's punishing action based combat and struggle to stay alive. Many mechanics are designed to punish poor reactions as opposed to being sustained chip damage that one can manage with more defensive stats. I think it's important for people to learn that especially if they're asking about why they're dying. Giving tanky build suggestions in lieu of playstyle advice is a disservice that sets players up for disappointment and can encourage bad habits.

The OP did specify that they were mainly dying to chip damage, and that's something that having tankier stats can help with. Extra health can also turn some one-shots into something you can survive and heal up from.

More importantly, the more active defences have also been discussed. It's not like the discourse has been "just take celestial and your problems will be over". It's a piece of the puzzle, not a magic bullet that will allow you to facetank everything without effort (not even warrior or necro can do that, although they can make you think you can do that until you suddenly can't and don't have a Plan B). But it can be a bit more forgiving of mistakes and make you a bit more resistant to chip damage which, again, the OP cited as being a bigger problem than oneshots.

[Mevelios.4809]

4 hours ago, Micah.3789 said:

While it's true that celestial gear is often advised to newer players to provide defensive stats and try to compensate for poor play, the fact is that it's a pretty ineffective strategy. Poor use of active defense can't be compensated for with raw stats. This widely perpetuated myth also encourages new players to choose "safer" celestial stats which mostly just reduce their overall potency, and leads them to believe they can ignore mechanics.

That's my thought behind expecting everyone to run specialist gear in raids (glass cannon stats - usually zerk/viper/harrier). When leading training runs, I want my squad to learn the mechanics and to make full use of their character's potential, including active defences, rather than trying to ignore this or that because "I can facetank it". That way they realize what a difference can they make individually when somebody else misses something for whichever reason, because GW2 is a forgiving game in most of its content. I'd rather start the encounter over than have us forcing our way through, so those learning keep on improving whether they stay or leave us later on. For easier content like fractals/strikes I don't mind the brutal approach, but starting raids or CM strikes it may quickly ruin someone else's experience.

Being aware of what one profession can do on a hybrid build is something that usually comes with more experience, many hybrids can be made-up but often lack efficiency compared to ordinary specialists. While I recommend to let go of celestial gear, if someone knows what they're doing and pull off proper results with it, I no longer mind - the only remaining issue being sometimes indeed the toughness.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

2 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

That's my thought behind expecting everyone to run specialist gear in raids (glass cannon stats - usually zerk/viper/harrier). When leading training runs, I want my squad to learn the mechanics and to make full use of their character's potential, including active defences, rather than trying to ignore this or that because "I can facetank it". That way they realize what a difference can they make individually when somebody else misses something for whichever reason, because GW2 is a forgiving game in most of its content. I'd rather start the encounter over than have us forcing our way through, so those learning keep on improving whether they stay or leave us later on. For easier content like fractals/strikes I don't mind the brutal approach, but starting raids or CM strikes it may quickly ruin someone else's experience.

Being aware of what one profession can do on a hybrid build is something that usually comes with more experience, many hybrids can be made-up but often lack efficiency compared to ordinary specialists. While I recommend to let go of celestial gear, if someone knows what they're doing and pull off proper results with it, I no longer mind - the only remaining issue being sometimes indeed the toughness.

I'm actually pretty excited about this Obsidian Armor they've promised us in the next update (which should be next month, we'll see). I have ONE set of armor because ascended armor is bloody expensive, and so I run celestial as a generalist armor. But I'd be lying if I said I wasn't curious what my condi-staff mesmer could do if I had a set of viper gear. I'm just not going to invest in THREE sets of ascended armor to do it, a Power armor, a Condi armor, and a Support armor. But once I can get legendary armor I do plan to actually try adjusting my stats since I'll be able to customize it to each build.

And I suspect this is WHY obsidian armor is a thing now. There was three legendary armors, PvP, WvW, and PvE (technically). PvP is just that, WvW is just large scale PvP, and then PvE is even referred to as Raid armor since that's where you have to go to do it. And as was pointed out above, apparently the Raiding community is irredeemably toxic and I suspect that Anet knows it. I can't prove anything, but it does make me wonder if they know that there's no fixing it, so you know what? Here's a set of armor and now you never have to set foot in a raid ever. No more people, no more DPS meters, no more build checks, and no more toxic players telling you you're not good enough to play the game to get your materials.

[Mevelios.4809]

1 hour ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I have ONE set of armor because ascended armor is bloody expensive, and so I run celestial as a generalist armor. But I'd be lying if I said I wasn't curious what my condi-staff mesmer could do if I had a set of viper gear. I'm just not going to invest in THREE sets of ascended armor to do it, a Power armor, a Condi armor, and a Support armor. But once I can get legendary armor I do plan to actually try adjusting my stats since I'll be able to customize it to each build.

With some patience (three days per piece) crafted ascended armor lies on the cheaper side though. If you bother doing dragonfall/silverwastes metas during that time for purchasable components you may miss (no need to spend the entire week there, one or two hours are enough) or even simply do the fractals, the first set would look like the most complicated to obtain but everything else is much smoother to get - the principle being merely a bit of patience, which isn't comparable to what patience it takes to make legendary pieces. Making several sets may look like a chore, but that's also the price to be able to manage every role you fancy; if it were all about a single set (such as celestial), then everything else wouldn't have any meaning.

The thing with ascended pieces is, exotic armor/weapons are merely 5% behind ascended counterparts - the real difference is found in jewelry, for which the gap can go as far as 30 to 50%. That's why to follow in the recommendation I make to my guildmates when raiding, I just tell them whatever set they want to run, it doesn't have to absolutely be an ascended one; ideally it should be at least ascended jewelry because of that huge stats gap, precisely because NM raids are the starting point where performance becomes necessary. The more people are held back by that gap, the worse the raid's performance is, putting at risk any dps-related phase (or healers, if something goes wrong) such as W6 CA (the first boss), in which you don't want to suffer one clap and two lasers because damages were lacking (there are still ways to cheese it, but at that point you know something's wrong - either poor performance, either lack of knowledge about the mechanics). Otherwise for weapons/armor it doesn't matter, exotic is largely fine - the difference in performance is too small to care for it in normal modes.

1 hour ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

And I suspect this is WHY obsidian armor is a thing now. There was three legendary armors, PvP, WvW, and PvE (technically). PvP is just that, WvW is just large scale PvP, and then PvE is even referred to as Raid armor since that's where you have to go to do it. And as was pointed out above, apparently the Raiding community is irredeemably toxic and I suspect that Anet knows it. I can't prove anything, but it does make me wonder if they know that there's no fixing it, so you know what? Here's a set of armor and now you never have to set foot in a raid ever. No more people, no more DPS meters, no more build checks, and no more toxic players telling you you're not good enough to play the game to get your materials.

The open world armor has been requested for some time, and honestly I'm surprised it hasn't been introduced earlier; raid armor may look daunting, but what it takes is finding a guild doing training runs - you can find several in the Looking for guild section. It takes some patience as you have to do at least five weeks of W1 raiding on Gorseval for its collectible (which is easier said than done when you start out), then it depends on the chests you collect for ectoplasmic residue; however W1 & 2 are definitely amongst the least demanding wings. W3 & 4 are only a little more effort since a lot relies on the tank then handkiter rather than the rest of the raid. Coalescence would be the harder thing in comparison, as W5/6/7 are more intense and take more than one or two people to mind their mechanics. In any way, in raids knowledge matters a great deal - not just your character to adapt to each boss, but more than anything knowledge of the encounter.

Whatever falls onto behaviour about the raid community will always be tied to players. I almost never do any clearing raids, nearly always lead or participate to training runs and that's enough to get my weekly rewards minus a few CMs. That's where you need to clearly differentiate the objectives of the LFG announces; most indeed are about clearing, and expect performance in return, because again raids are the beginning to a performance requirement. Training/semi-training runs however are far more forgiving and do not immediately yell at you because you missed the cue for whatever mechanic. Besides, not only do I dislike the very idea of letting people check your kp but my worst runs also took place with groups asking for kp or LI, so... I can't really be bothered with these, they don't tell a thing about the player. You could've been carried 100 times as a dps merely aware of where [not] to step, yet clueless about everything else; any beginner who cared to learn in their two/three first runs may have more knowledge and carry themselves better than that so-called 100 runs "veteran".

If you do not look for/find a training guild, I'd advise checking the LFG between 8 and 10 PM (whichever your timezone is). That's when most raid runs take place, including the training ones; and if you're still struggling but are on EU servers, send me a message - I do guild training runs during the week-end and we do not have a full roster, so extras are always welcome! 🙂

Edited January 12 by Mevelios.4809

[ShadowKatt.6740]

1 hour ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

With some patience (three days per piece) crafted ascended armor lies on the cheaper side though. If you bother doing dragonfall/silverwastes metas during that time for purchasable components you may miss (no need to spend the entire week there, one or two hours are enough) or even simply do the fractals, the first set would look like the most complicated to obtain but everything else is much smoother to get - the principle being merely a bit of patience, which isn't comparable to what patience it takes to make legendary pieces. Making several sets may look like a chore, but that's also the price to be able to manage every role you fancy; if it were all about a single set (such as celestial), then everything else wouldn't have any meaning.

The thing with ascended pieces is, exotic armor/weapons are merely 5% behind ascended counterparts - the real difference is found in jewelry, for which the gap can go as far as 30 to 50%. That's why to follow in the recommendation I make to my guildmates when raiding, I just tell them whatever set they want to run, it doesn't have to absolutely be an ascended one; ideally it should be at least ascended jewelry because of that huge stats gap, precisely because NM raids are the starting point where performance becomes necessary. The more people are held back by that gap, the worse the raid's performance is, putting at risk any dps-related phase (or healers, if something goes wrong) such as W6 CA (the first boss), in which you don't want to suffer one clap and two lasers because damages were lacking (there are still ways to cheese it, but at that point you know something's wrong - either poor performance, either lack of knowledge about the mechanics). Otherwise for weapons/armor it doesn't matter, exotic is largely fine - the difference in performance is too small to care for it in normal modes.

The open world armor has been requested for some time, and honestly I'm surprised it hasn't been introduced earlier; raid armor may look daunting, but what it takes is finding a guild doing training runs - you can find several in the Looking for guild section. It takes some patience as you have to do at least five weeks of W1 raiding on Gorseval for its collectible (which is easier said than done when you start out), then it depends on the chests you collect for ectoplasmic residue; however W1 & 2 are definitely amongst the least demanding wings. W3 & 4 are only a little more effort since a lot relies on the tank then handkiter rather than the rest of the raid. Coalescence would be the harder thing in comparison, as W5/6/7 are more intense and take more than one or two people to mind their mechanics. In any way, in raids knowledge matters a great deal - not just your character to adapt to each boss, but more than anything knowledge of the encounter.

Whatever falls onto behaviour about the raid community will always be tied to players. I almost never do any clearing raids, nearly always lead or participate to training runs and that's enough to get my weekly rewards minus a few CMs. That's where you need to clearly differentiate the objectives of the LFG announces; most indeed are about clearing, and expect performance in return, because again raids are the beginning to a performance requirement. Training/semi-training runs however are far more forgiving and do not immediately yell at you because you missed the cue for whatever mechanic. Besides, not only do I dislike the very idea of letting people check your kp but my worst runs also took place with groups asking for kp or LI, so... I can't really be bothered with these, they don't tell a thing about the player. You could've been carried 100 times as a dps merely aware of where [not] to step, yet clueless about everything else; any beginner who cared to learn in their two/three first runs may have more knowledge and carry themselves better than that so-called 100 runs "veteran".

If you do not look for/find a training guild, I'd advise checking the LFG between 8 and 10 PM (whichever your timezone is). That's when most raid runs take place, including the training ones; and if you're still struggling but are on EU servers, send me a message - I do guild training runs during the week-end and we do not have a full roster, so extras are always welcome! 🙂

I'll give you this, I don't even know you but if you say you're a trainer I believe you. I think I learned more in that single post, mostly terminology, than I have in a long time deep diving the wiki. CM, kp, and LI were not even terms I had heard before, although I've done enough fractals to know what a Challenge Mote is I've just never touched one before. Still though, and I know you're trying really hard to put the best light on raids that you can, that is just not helping your case since once I learned what "Kill Proof" and "Legendary Insight" are (the latter of which used in context with the former), it does not do the Raiding community any favors. The fact that you have people out there demanding proof that you've already done it before before they'll even let you into the group is, to me, obscene. And I say this after having done more than a few fractals. There's, I'm assuming, a WIDE gulf between Fractals and Strike/Raids and I've gotten more than my fair share of blowback in just T2 fractals. Not having enough Agony Resistance (the last time was for having only 45 AR....in a T2 fractal), for not stacking up with the rest of the group (again, in a T2 fractal....the leader was a kitten, even after he went down and I rezzed him). But now I know that he's only the tip of the iceberg. Apparently the Raid community gets so, so, SO very much worse.

I'll admit, your invitation to training raids is a tempting one. But frankly, even if I did, I would never get out of them. The rest of the Raiding area is obviously so incredibly hostile, exclusionary, and lets just be frank here, sadisticly cruel that I don't want anything to do with it. I think I would rather quit GW2 entirely and go find another game to play then set a foot in there with any of those players and I sure as hell wouldn't even hint that anyone else even try.

As for your advice on gear though, that's very useful. I knew there wasn't much of a gap between exotic and ascended but as I've pointed out already there is a very toxic element in the community that I seem to have been, until now, relatively unaware of since I've only had glancing brushes with them in the open world or my occasional forays into WvW. The fact that the gap in accessories can be upwards of 50% though, I did not know that, but I can believe it. I remember the improvement in performance I got even running celestial when I got all my stuff up to ascended level. But I may look into getting some exotic armor alternatives, just to try them out and see what they do for my builds.

[Mevelios.4809]

8 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Still though, and I know you're trying really hard to put the best light on raids that you can, that is just not helping your case since once I learned what "Kill Proof" and "Legendary Insight" are (the latter of which used in context with the former), it does not do the Raiding community any favors. The fact that you have people out there demanding proof that you've already done it before before they'll even let you into the group is, to me, obscene. And I say this after having done more than a few fractals. There's, I'm assuming, a WIDE gulf between Fractals and Strike/Raids and I've gotten more than my fair share of blowback in just T2 fractals. Not having enough Agony Resistance (the last time was for having only 45 AR....in a T2 fractal), for not stacking up with the rest of the group (again, in a T2 fractal....the leader was a kitten, even after he went down and I rezzed him). But now I know that he's only the tip of the iceberg. Apparently the Raid community gets so, so, SO very much worse.

I'm not exactly trying to shed some positive light on it; I'm well aware how easily can it be toxic, especially in groups with requirements which, again, count amongst some of my worst experiences in failed runs. What I'm saying is, it isn't all there is to that LFG; raids are content in which performance becomes necessary, hence groups are made with precise objectives - either training, either clearing. When clearing, indeed most commanders expect some sort of guarantee as a single player can wreck a whole encounter by ruining a mechanic; that's why knowledge of the encounter is important, and having a bunch of killproof supposedly means you learned a thing or two from your runs. You can see it in T4 fractals as well with some UFE requirements; but that's not all there is to it! It's merely the only tool available to them to quickly tell whether a player has some experience or not - which, again, may very well not tell a thing if said player has learned nothing more than simply where not to stand (always a good start, but there's usually more than that).

That's why the immediate objective as a novice in raids isn't to aim for clearing runs, but training ones. Here, really, the biggest effort to get into that content is finding a guild that organizes training runs. Gather knowledge from there - don't just have pseudo-training runs in which you're only being brought along, merely standing as an ordinary dps that doesn't do any special role; anybody can be that bystander. Ask for training on special roles, try things out, fail twice or thrice on it so you get to learn that role; from there you start accumulating said knowledge, which will make a world of difference in your experience of raiding and likely will attract more novices willing to learn. The results for autonomy won't be immediate since there's little incentive (besides the fun) to repeat raids beyond their weekly reward, but isn't the idea of improving yourself constantly enough of a reward already? 😋

The difficulty gap can be daunting should you be struggling with fractals; roughly, NM T4 fractals are easier than NM strikes (although you're more likely to struggle with silent surf fractal than something like the cosmic observatory strike), said strikes being easier than NM raids. CMs are a different kind of beast, some really being on the easier side (W3 KC, W4 Cairn, W5 SH if only mentioning raids - little change from their NM versions) while others put you through quite some struggle (W6 Q1 "oops, we just ran out of aegis for that next bouncing fireball" or that lovely W5 Dhuum jogger). Again, knowledge makes a world of difference here but between that and practice, you can overcome raids if you just dare challenge yourself! Forget the worst elements in the raiding community, there will always be some - join more openminded guilds or make similar contacts to enjoy that content. 🙂

8 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

As for your advice on gear though, that's very useful. I knew there wasn't much of a gap between exotic and ascended but as I've pointed out already there is a very toxic element in the community that I seem to have been, until now, relatively unaware of since I've only had glancing brushes with them in the open world or my occasional forays into WvW. The fact that the gap in accessories can be upwards of 50% though, I did not know that, but I can believe it. I remember the improvement in performance I got even running celestial when I got all my stuff up to ascended level. But I may look into getting some exotic armor alternatives, just to try them out and see what they do for my builds.

You can compare any exotic backpack with its ascended version; that's the worst piece for which the exotic litterally is half of the ascended's stats. An exotic accessory is two thirds of the ascended version, and so on! Ascended gear (or legendary for that matter, it's the same stats) do have meaning for performance, but beyond the jewelry/back items it's not really a requirement for the vast majority of the content.

Edited January 13 by Mevelios.4809

[Firebeard.1746]

On 1/6/2024 at 5:57 AM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

The ability to dodge even while stunned or performing other actions is incredibly powerful.

They took this out of mirage. 

[Firebeard.1746]

13 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I'll admit, your invitation to training raids is a tempting one. But frankly, even if I did, I would never get out of them. The rest of the Raiding area is obviously so incredibly hostile, exclusionary, and lets just be frank here, sadisticly cruel that I don't want anything to do with it. I think I would rather quit GW2 entirely and go find another game to play then set a foot in there with any of those players and I sure as hell wouldn't even hint that anyone else even try.

Alot of raiders on these forums can come across that way. So can some of the pugging commanders. But if you learn in the right contexts, this kind of starts to vanish. As you get better, you don't get people ragging on you, even when you interact with the more toxic parts of the community. I used to feel the same way, but got trained by a really nice person and I've been able to raid reliably in NA raid academeny practice/clear runs ever since. NA raid academy tends to not even have people like that (I can count kittens being elitist on 1 hand from that community), but it felt useless before I was trained because of how infrequent trianing groups were and how hard it was to make them. 

Also when I've dared to pug, usually the groups asking for KP do worse than the ones that explicitly say they're practice runs, because I think that people actually study mechanics more when they're not as experienced and some experienced players re-join after months of inactivity or have just been carried way too much. 

The worst part about training runs is when it's clear the group doesn't have the skill in the specialized roles to succeed and it's just not going to work out/the right people are going to figure it out in that session. I think if encounters are designed with fewer situations like that, then you'll see more people raiding/doing strike CMs. 

Though there's a lot wrong with the implementation of strike CMs I won't go into here. 

Edited January 13 by Firebeard.1746

[Micah.3789]

20 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

That way they realize what a difference can they make individually when somebody else misses something for whichever reason, because GW2 is a forgiving game in most of its content.

This was exactly the point I was trying to make. While it's true the GW2 is very forgiving of failure, it's also VERY rewarding of effort. I prefer to encourage that effort for the person's enjoyment/satisfaction rather than suggest someone take advantage of the game's forgiving nature.

6 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

You can compare any exotic backpack with its ascended version; that's the worst piece for which the exotic litterally is half of the ascended's stats. An exotic accessory is two thirds of the ascended version, and so on! Ascended gear (or legendary for that matter, it's the same stats) do have meaning for performance, but beyond the jewelry/back items it's not really a requirement for the vast majority of the content.

Exotic trinkets have slots for jewels which make up the rest of the stats, while ascended do not. Upgrading an exotic trinket with exotic jewel to ascended is roughly the same jump as for any other slot. The exotic back you linked is a specific exception. Note the text at the bottom: "This item does not have an upgrade slot, and hence has weaker stats than items with both inherent stats and upgrade slot (jewel) stats."

15 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I'll admit, your invitation to training raids is a tempting one. But frankly, even if I did, I would never get out of them. The rest of the Raiding area is obviously so incredibly hostile, exclusionary, and lets just be frank here, sadisticly cruel that I don't want anything to do with it. I think I would rather quit GW2 entirely and go find another game to play then set a foot in there with any of those players and I sure as hell wouldn't even hint that anyone else even try.

People can be pretty discriminatory, especially when they think their interests might be threatened. Considering your post history, I'm sure you can relate. Some players in the raid/strike/fractal community become hyper focused on the rewards of completion as opposed to the enjoyment of the experience. This makes efficiency and predictability their utmost priorities. Naturally, a status quo forms and uniformity becomes expected. This is where the rift forms and the threshold for entry into the content can seem unreasonable. Anyone not conforming/performing may be held in contempt, but it's "justified" under the assumption that everyone is there for the same reason. Simply put, some have very extreme ideas of what constitutes being a 'team player' and patience is often in short supply in such groups. These are only a small fraction of the people running this content though, and they're mostly isolated to pug groups. The same thing can happen in other content though. Have you never had a meta event commander blow up on a group for not following directions or failing a mechanic? When people care more about the rewards than the people they're playing with, things can get mean. 

I'm not going to encourage you to try content if you're not interested, but just know that there are plenty of people who care more about teamwork/community than rewards. They mostly organize through guilds and discord servers, so many players don't even encounter them without actively looking. I personally used Skein Gang (guild) to find a group of like minded players to raid with as a scheduled static. It's definitely a very different way to play the game though. Other people are relying on you, and with that does come some compromising.

[Mevelios.4809]

2 hours ago, Micah.3789 said:

Exotic trinkets have slots for jewels which make up the rest of the stats, while ascended do not. Upgrading an exotic trinket with exotic jewel to ascended is roughly the same jump as for any other slot.

Right, it's been so long since I used any that I completely forgot what were gemstones for 😳 Thanks for the reminder! Brings the gap to a rough 10%.

[draxynnic.3719]

While I did most of my raiding with statics, I did have a period where my last static had gone into indefinite hiatus and I wanted to finish off my raid armour before SOTO. I think I was asked for kp... maybe a handful of times, but not the majority? People are more likely to ask to ping a piece of gear just to check that you're running something suitable. I don't even have a kpme account. 

Those that do ask for kp tend to fall into two broad groups. Some are very experienced players who basically want to speedrun the content ASAP, and in that case it's probably reasonable to want people at their level. The other seems to be people who subconsciously know that they're not as good as they think they are and try to ensure that the people they LFG are good as a crutch. If you're new to the content, you don't want either group.

Generally speaking, while I think there is a high proportion of the gatekeeping type on the forum, in practice most LFG groups are fairly easy-going and are only really likely to get toxic if they identify that one particular player is the reason they're having trouble and that player is refusing to take advice and/or being toxic in turn.

[Averax.8617]

I figure i should update this one last time.

Yes i did figure out how to effectively use mesmer, including virtuoso. But i wasn't having very much fun with any of the elite specializations. Mirage was okay, if a bit bland. However the most fun i had playing mesmer was with the core setup with my greatsword, which is probably not going to cut it if i choose to do anything more than open world content. Virtuoso was kind of fun, and i learned how to survive while playing that, but it was starting to hurt my hands with how often i was using bladesongs. Didn't give much thought to Chronomancer because all the guides and videos on it kept saying it was very complex, and that doesn't interest me.

I feel like virtuoso might be great for a controller setup. I might try that later after i figure out how to map the controller like people do for the steamdeck.

For the meanwhile, i've gone back to my necromancer. Reaper go brrrrrr.... Seriously, it's nice to have pets out that don't go away when i've killed something, and not even need them to take hits to the face.