Rereading Sea of Sorrows, the Maw felt a bit weird

[Slowpokeking.8720]

5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

You're still over-emphasizing the existence of a single few dozen ships to an entity that is several tens of thousands years old, who's not even part of the conflict, who hasn't even tapped into the majority of its forces "at that time", and who wasn't even bothered by the death of its forces when the Pact was steamrolling them on its own territory.

 

And no, the king wasn't involved in that battle. Baede was still alive in DR, just on a sickbed. And Edair had at least two siblings, so humanity wouldn't have been in any danger. Nor would Zhaitan know or care about that stuff.

Not a single few dozen ships, but a very well organized armada which was much stronger than what we saw in the game.

Zhaitan was overseeing the war, even coordinating the details to take the chance. The book made quite clear.

And you are making up fact

Baede was dead, he picked Edair as the successor, the book made it clear. 

 Also Edair was leading the Kryta navy there, if the fleet was destroyed there, it would left little to defend against the Risen armada.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

first: I read the book many times. I read all the books many times.

You are just confused about the importance of a single fleet and a single champion to a being like Zhaitan. Zhaitan had hundreds of champions. 

Until the pact was formed, Zhaitan was winning. The risen were everywhere. Hell, the human hero had to stop risen in Queen Jennah's throne room. That is how hard Zhaitan was winning.

Zhaitan took Claw Island with zero effort. 

And still you think that a couple douzends of ships and maybe a couple of thousands of minions matter to a being which can affort to wait for HUNDREDS of years and has access to THOUSANDS of ships and HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of minions.

The game downscales a lot of things. But still - remember the last fight? The sky is full with Teq style dragons. And that was a weakened Zhaitan after the pact starved him, turned the land against him and took ages to slaughter their way across Orr. Do you really think that anything would have stopped Zhaitan if he had a little bit more time and unleashed those hordes of undead dragons on Tyria?

And with hordes of undead dragons - do you really think that a little fleet with some humanoid champion would have made any difference?

The win for humans in SoS was big. But the loss for Zhaitan was miniscule. Did it set him back a couple of years? Yes. But do a couple of years matter to a being which likes to take 10 000 year naps? No.

 

 

[Slowpokeking.8720]

2 hours ago, VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. said:

first: I read the book many times. I read all the books many times.

You are just confused about the importance of a single fleet and a single champion to a being like Zhaitan. Zhaitan had hundreds of champions. 

Until the pact was formed, Zhaitan was winning. The risen were everywhere. Hell, the human hero had to stop risen in Queen Jennah's throne room. That is how hard Zhaitan was winning.

Zhaitan took Claw Island with zero effort. 

And still you think that a couple douzends of ships and maybe a couple of thousands of minions matter to a being which can affort to wait for HUNDREDS of years and has access to THOUSANDS of ships and HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of minions.

The game downscales a lot of things. But still - remember the last fight? The sky is full with Teq style dragons. And that was a weakened Zhaitan after the pact starved him, turned the land against him and took ages to slaughter their way across Orr. Do you really think that anything would have stopped Zhaitan if he had a little bit more time and unleashed those hordes of undead dragons on Tyria?

And with hordes of undead dragons - do you really think that a little fleet with some humanoid champion would have made any difference?

The win for humans in SoS was big. But the loss for Zhaitan was miniscule. Did it set him back a couple of years? Yes. But do a couple of years matter to a being which likes to take 10 000 year naps? No.

 

 

 

Zhaitan had very few flagship commanders. And none of them were as powerful as Whiting, who could turn ppl instantly into intelligent Risen and was one with Indomitable. None of the Risen fleet were as powerful as his. Which had such heavy firepower, Risen turning, coordination and great xebec ships. He lost the most elite of the ships.

We also know that the most powerful Risen ships were not built by Zhaitan, but by other mortals and corrupted by him. So it's quite costly to lose them.

How was Zhaitan winning? Claw island had repelled countless Risen attacks, the best Risen could grab was just some at east coast, but very few in the core human territory at all. And it took a massive surprise attack to take Claw Island, after it was repelled and retaken by the Pact in like, less than 1 year? Then it's all about kicking Zhaitan's kitten until he's dead.

Yes, since it's the best chance, after that he NEVER EVER was able to take Lion's Arch or the Kryta navy again. The best effort was to take down Claw Island for a short while before we started to kick his kitten.

yeah I remember the last fight, we were kicking Zhaitan's kitten badly, the team even bought fireworks rdy. The dragon champions also got shot down by our ships remember? We got to shot 3 of them down like jokes before take on Zhaitan, the Pact was able to start a full scale war with Mordremoth later.  They were not big troubles.

Your so called hordes got their kitten wiped by Pact fleet, all they left was just some kingpins(Risen knight) later for ppl to take down and research.

The loss of Zhaitan was big, it was the closest chance he EVER got to wipe out humans and breach into human core territory.  He lost his most elite armada and was never able to build one again. 

Not to say the book even made clear that he was wailing, screaming in agony when Whiting was killed. The dragon itself disagrees with you.

Edited January 30 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Kalavier.1097]

You forget that Orr was infested and dangerous as hell for years after Zhaitan died, the pact didn't wipe out the risen.

Also, in the book does it explicitly say Zhaitan was wailing and could be heard? So he is capable of being heard at LA from the center of Orr? That's a loud voice.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

7 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Not a single few dozen ships, but a very well organized armada which was much stronger than what we saw in the game.

Zhaitan was overseeing the war, even coordinating the details to take the chance. The book made quite clear.

Zhaitan was not overseeing the war. Zhaitan couldn't oversee the war. The game makes it quite clear that only Mordremoth, the Elder Dragon of Mind, could micromanage and direct control his minions. Zhaitan could only see what the Eyes see, and could only have the vague knowledge of those it corrupts.

You're grossly overstating the importance of a mere champion like Whiting to an Elder Dragon. You're grossly overstating the importance of a mere naval battle like the Great Krytan Blockade.

7 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

And you are making up fact

Baede was dead, he picked Edair as the successor, the book made it clear. 

 Also Edair was leading the Kryta navy there, if the fleet was destroyed there, it would left little to defend against the Risen armada.

Right, re-read it and yeah, Baede died and named Edair his successor.

But Edair was still Prince Edair throughout Act 4. He was named successor but not crowned yet. And Livia made it clear her job was to protect the throne, not the crown or who it (would soon) rest on. She didn't actually care if Edair lived, and implied she was willing to kill him to keep Kryta safe. As I said, Edair had two siblings. If he died, humanity would not have fallen. The battle wasn't of the kind of importance you think it had, the importance was for Lion's Arch's independence and Edair's own legitimacy for when he would be crowned king. It was not a battle to determine the fate of humanity on Tyria or hell, even Lion's Arch's existence.

3 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Zhaitan had very few flagship commanders.

Well that's just objectively false as the Personal Story proved. Hell the fact that the Black Fleet remains a major threat in the Unending Ocean during End of Dragons, is proof that this is a kitten claim.

3 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

And none of them were as powerful as Whiting, who could turn ppl instantly into intelligent Risen and was one with Indomitable.

That's... literally every risen champion could do that.

It's called instantly killing someone.

Shooting someone through the heart or head does that.

Go re-read the scene of Port Stalwart's destruction, or Edge of Destiny. Corpses in the presence of a dragon champion would turn immediately into risen, before they could even hit the floor. It doesn't even require a direct kill from the champion - people in Port Stalwart turned into risen while Whiting and the Indomitable was off on the horizon.

3 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

None of the Risen fleet were as powerful as his.

Again, kitten, because the Dead Ships are still a major threat in End of Dragons, so much so that it was a troubling task for Kasmeer's group to reach Cantha.

I mean, you don't even have a basis for this claim of yours, you're founding it solely on the fact that it was made the flagship of Zhaitan's initial assaults. But that's more because he made Whiting a champion, and less because he didn't have any others. And Whiting was made a champion just cuz Zhaitan chose to do so - he could have made other equally powerful champions immediately after, and in fact did so, given we have many powerful risen champions in Edge of Destiny and GW2.

Was it a blow to Zhaitan's power? Sure. But was it so critical that it was a devastating loss? No.

The only dragon champions that are a devastating loss for an Elder Dragon to lose are those they're directly connected to - like the Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitan - or are relying on for some bullshittery reasons that's never explained, like Braham and Ryland in IBS (seriously why were they made out to be so important when we literally killed a dozen other dragon champions per dragon in IBS: Champions alone).

Edited January 30 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kalavier.1097]

15 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Well that's just objectively false as the Personal Story proved. Hell the fact that the Black Fleet remains a major threat in the Unending Ocean during End of Dragons, is proof that this is a kitten claim.

 

Again, kitten, because the Dead Ships are still a major threat in End of Dragons, so much so that it was a troubling task for Kasmeer's group to reach Cantha.

Don't forget they had Xebecs/those massive ark like ships actively transporting cargo holds full of corpses back to Orr throughout the years, in addition to the ships, risen sea creatures/monsters, and dragons effectively shutting down all international shipping and transport to the point there is not even an guess of when they'll have the oceans free enough that ships can travel freely between the landmasses without a heavy escort or stealth.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

8 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Zhaitan was not overseeing the war. Zhaitan couldn't oversee the war. The game makes it quite clear that only Mordremoth, the Elder Dragon of Mind, could micromanage and direct control his minions. Zhaitan could only see what the Eyes see, and could only have the vague knowledge of those it corrupts.

You're grossly overstating the importance of a mere champion like Whiting to an Elder Dragon. You're grossly overstating the importance of a mere naval battle like the Great Krytan Blockade.

Right, re-read it and yeah, Baede died and named Edair his successor.

But Edair was still Prince Edair throughout Act 4. He was named successor but not crowned yet. And Livia made it clear her job was to protect the throne, not the crown or who it (would soon) rest on. She didn't actually care if Edair lived, and implied she was willing to kill him to keep Kryta safe. As I said, Edair had two siblings. If he died, humanity would not have fallen. The battle wasn't of the kind of importance you think it had, the importance was for Lion's Arch's independence and Edair's own legitimacy for when he would be crowned king. It was not a battle to determine the fate of humanity on Tyria or hell, even Lion's Arch's existence.

Well that's just objectively false as the Personal Story proved. Hell the fact that the Black Fleet remains a major threat in the Unending Ocean during End of Dragons, is proof that this is a kitten claim.

That's... literally every risen champion could do that.

It's called instantly killing someone.

Shooting someone through the heart or head does that.

Go re-read the scene of Port Stalwart's destruction, or Edge of Destiny. Corpses in the presence of a dragon champion would turn immediately into risen, before they could even hit the floor. It doesn't even require a direct kill from the champion - people in Port Stalwart turned into risen while Whiting and the Indomitable was off on the horizon.

Again, kitten, because the Dead Ships are still a major threat in End of Dragons, so much so that it was a troubling task for Kasmeer's group to reach Cantha.

I mean, you don't even have a basis for this claim of yours, you're founding it solely on the fact that it was made the flagship of Zhaitan's initial assaults. But that's more because he made Whiting a champion, and less because he didn't have any others. And Whiting was made a champion just cuz Zhaitan chose to do so - he could have made other equally powerful champions immediately after, and in fact did so, given we have many powerful risen champions in Edge of Destiny and GW2.

Was it a blow to Zhaitan's power? Sure. But was it so critical that it was a devastating loss? No.

The only dragon champions that are a devastating loss for an Elder Dragon to lose are those they're directly connected to - like the Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitan - or are relying on for some bullshittery reasons that's never explained, like Braham and Ryland in IBS (seriously why were they made out to be so important when we literally killed a dozen other dragon champions per dragon in IBS: Champions alone).

Again did you even read the book?

It was made clear that" the minions were working together like thought with one mind." when he saw the deadships work together without any communication to block the Kryta flagship.

"The dragon's will infused the Orrians, coordinating their reponses-defending the ropes even as the black-hulled galleon pulled them all into the sea."

When Cobiah was on Indomintable. All eyes on him, "he felt a massive, weighty presence focus on him, something greater than the ship or the captain, something impossibly strong."

Obviously Zhaitan was overseeing and commanding the battle and he shared a link with Whiting. Again you are denying fact. I really suspect that you didn't even read the book.

And the most important you chose to ignore, instantly into intelligent Risen.

If the battle was lost, no more Lion's Arch and Kryta fleet would be destroyed so it would leave defenselessly against the Risen armada. .

The Deadships only wander the sea to block path, after Zhaitan's death never were they able to make direct assault to Lion's Arch or Kryta again. That is not even close.

Obviously Whiting and Indomintable was powerful enough so he was picked. You are making fact that Zhaitan could make anyone equally powerful, why didn't he make every minion that powerful?

Whiting obviously had direct connection with Zhaitan, as Zhaitan was wailing, you are denying fact again.

Edited January 30 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Slowpokeking.8720]

8 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

You forget that Orr was infested and dangerous as hell for years after Zhaitan died, the pact didn't wipe out the risen.

Also, in the book does it explicitly say Zhaitan was wailing and could be heard? So he is capable of being heard at LA from the center of Orr? That's a loud voice.

It was not a major threat anymore, all that left was some mindless unchained, some beasts and Kingpins.

The whole armada and the Maw was wailing "as if the dragon itself was wailing."

The book hinted many times that Zhaitan was overseeing the battle.

 

Edited January 30 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

It was not a major threat anymore, all that left was some mindless unchained, some beasts and Kingpins.

The whole armada and the Maw was wailing "as if the dragon itself was wailing."

The book hinted many times that Zhaitan was overseeing the battle.

 

"Not a major threat" is not what EoD says at all.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

3 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

"Not a major threat" is not what EoD says at all.

How is it a major threat?

Did it launch massive invasion against either Kryta, Lion's Arch or Cantha? No. In EoD there was none. Tell me why didn't the Black Fleet launch full scale assault against Lion's Arch nor Cathan City?

Even its home Orr was filled with researchers, all that left was kingpins leading some mindless undead.

The Unchained was never ever the threat they once were. There is no Zhaitan anymore for unify all of them and keep creating mass undead, Teq tried to bring something but it got killed as well.

If they were still the threat they once were, the Pact would not switch target to other dragons but go back to smash them first.

Edited January 30 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Kalavier.1097]

5 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

How is it a major threat?

Did it launch massive invasion against either Kryta, Lion's Arch or Cantha? No. In EoD there was none. Tell me why didn't the Black Fleet launch full scale assault against Lion's Arch nor Cathan City?

Even its home Orr was filled with researchers, all that left was kingpins leading some mindless undead.

The Unchained was never ever the threat they once were. There is no Zhaitan anymore for unify all of them and keep creating mass undead, Teq tried to bring something but it got killed as well.

If they were still the threat they once were, the Pact would not switch target to other dragons but go back to smash them first.

Ships between Cantha and Kryta have to make specific stealth/caution measures to avoid being attacked by the fleets. It is still there, and still a threat.

You are inflating the importance of a single attack in Sea of Sorrows and not noticing how ever since then, Zhaitan was doing small pushes and gaining corpses, enough to fill barges with as one of the objectives in Orr was specifically to shut down the place that was receiving them.

Orr is still filled with Risen and not a safe place at all. Siren's landing has a singular research base, but is still incredibly dangerous,

Unchained are still a danger, even if they don't march out in a swarm, see Kaineng where they have to try to contain the Risen to specific areas, and where corrupted items still turn bodies into Risen.

The Risen, like the Mordrem are still a major danger, it's just they don't actively leave their lands anymore. The difference is the roaming dead fleets do still attack any ships they find.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

11 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Again did you even read the book?

It was made clear that" the minions were working together like thought with one mind." when he saw the deadships work together without any communication to block the Kryta flagship.

Yes, I did read the books, albeit it has admittedly been some time. But "as one mind" is just fancy speech for what the game itself tells you over and over and over and over again: that dragon minions are forced to follow the will of the Elder Dragon.

This does not mean that the Elder Dragon has direct mental communications with the minions. It does not mean that the Elder Dragon is micromanaging the minions. That is something that only Mordremoth, the Elder Dragon of Mind, was capable of doing - if Zhaitan could do it too then Mordremoth's special magic domain that made him much more challenging of a threat than Zhaitan... wouldn't be a special magic domain that made him much more challenging of a threat than Zhaitan.

What it does mean is that the Elder Dragon's will is felt to the minions, and the more intelligent minions like champions interpret that will to relay orders to dumber minions.

This is told, shown, and repeated ad infinitum throughout the game's story and even developer interviews.

Or to put it in a way of wording that you use: Again, did you even play the game

11 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Obviously Zhaitan was overseeing and commanding the battle and he shared a link with Whiting. Again you are denying fact. I really suspect that you didn't even read the book.

And the most important you chose to ignore, instantly into intelligent Risen.

If the battle was lost, no more Lion's Arch and Kryta fleet would be destroyed so it would leave defenselessly against the Risen armada. .

The Deadships only wander the sea to block path, after Zhaitan's death never were they able to make direct assault to Lion's Arch or Kryta again. That is not even close.

Obviously Whiting and Indomintable was powerful enough so he was picked. You are making fact that Zhaitan could make anyone equally powerful, why didn't he make every minion that powerful?

Whiting obviously had direct connection with Zhaitan, as Zhaitan was wailing, you are denying fact again.

No, because again, Zhaitan only had this special connection to the Eyes of Zhaitan. This is why killing the Eyes directly weakened Zhaitan. Killing Whiting did not directly weaken Zhaitan.

Whiting, no matter how powerful a dragon champion, was not an Eye of Zhaitan.

 

The moment of killing Whiting is depicted the same as when Morgus Lethe is killed, or the Destroyer of Lives, or the Dragonspawn. It is depicted the same as when we killed General Azuldin during Temple of the Forgotten God.

Risen General Azuldin: No, no, no! The dragon is angry!

-Azuldin is killed-

Sayeh al' Rajihd: The dragon roars in fear! These ancient foundations will not withstand the sound.

But killing General Azuldin did not harm or hinder Zhaitan in any meaningful way. It angered Zhaitan, sure (well Sayeh says "fear" but "Kralkatorrik: Nothing terrifies an Elder Dragon." and fear can be mistaken from anger or surprise and I'm more inclined to trust Azuldin on Zhaitan's emotions), but that's it. There was no direct connection with Zhaitan.

6 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

How is it a major threat?

Did it launch massive invasion against either Kryta, Lion's Arch or Cantha? No. In EoD there was none. Tell me why didn't the Black Fleet launch full scale assault against Lion's Arch nor Cathan City?

Even its home Orr was filled with researchers, all that left was kingpins leading some mindless undead.

The Unchained was never ever the threat they once were. There is no Zhaitan anymore for unify all of them and keep creating mass undead, Teq tried to bring something but it got killed as well.

If they were still the threat they once were, the Pact would not switch target to other dragons but go back to smash them first.

One does not need to launch an invasion to be a major threat. To quote the game:

Lady Kasmeer Meade: Didn't know what to expect with the Risen armada—no one has dared travel this far into the sea in over a century.

Marjory Delaqua: Luckily Zhaitan's death seems to have left them a bit disorganized. We managed to slip past them on an airship.

Marjory Delaqua: Handy having a mesmer aboard.

They're not as big of a threat as when Zhaitan was alive, but it's still an armada that requires powerful mesmers to sneak past on an airship. A threat of 8 is still a major threat even if it's no longer a threat of 9.

Or to put it in a way of wording that you use: Again, did you even play the game

[Slowpokeking.8720]

13 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Ships between Cantha and Kryta have to make specific stealth/caution measures to avoid being attacked by the fleets. It is still there, and still a threat.

You are inflating the importance of a single attack in Sea of Sorrows and not noticing how ever since then, Zhaitan was doing small pushes and gaining corpses, enough to fill barges with as one of the objectives in Orr was specifically to shut down the place that was receiving them.

Orr is still filled with Risen and not a safe place at all. Siren's landing has a singular research base, but is still incredibly dangerous,

Unchained are still a danger, even if they don't march out in a swarm, see Kaineng where they have to try to contain the Risen to specific areas, and where corrupted items still turn bodies into Risen.

The Risen, like the Mordrem are still a major danger, it's just they don't actively leave their lands anymore. The difference is the roaming dead fleets do still attack any ships they find.

Yeah, which means it could not make full offensive assault against major forces again, not facing

That single attack was Zhaitan's best chance to take out Lion's Arch and Kryta navy, and fully destroy the humans. The small pushes were mostly pushed back, or just making threat one the sea.

Orr was nowhere close to its former status as well, Unchained are nowhere close to the Risen which they were organized as a huge army. Nor do we see the Risen Giants or dragons filled in the ranks.

And most importantly, without Zhaitan, their corruption power is much much weaker now, only Teq showed some power but still far from Zhaitan.

Fact.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

12 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Yes, I did read the books, albeit it has admittedly been some time. But "as one mind" is just fancy speech for what the game itself tells you over and over and over and over again: that dragon minions are forced to follow the will of the Elder Dragon.

This does not mean that the Elder Dragon has direct mental communications with the minions. It does not mean that the Elder Dragon is micromanaging the minions. That is something that only Mordremoth, the Elder Dragon of Mind, was capable of doing - if Zhaitan could do it too then Mordremoth's special magic domain that made him much more challenging of a threat than Zhaitan... wouldn't be a special magic domain that made him much more challenging of a threat than Zhaitan.

What it does mean is that the Elder Dragon's will is felt to the minions, and the more intelligent minions like champions interpret that will to relay orders to dumber minions.

This is told, shown, and repeated ad infinitum throughout the game's story and even developer interviews.

Or to put it in a way of wording that you use: Again, did you even play the game

No, because again, Zhaitan only had this special connection to the Eyes of Zhaitan. This is why killing the Eyes directly weakened Zhaitan. Killing Whiting did not directly weaken Zhaitan.

Whiting, no matter how powerful a dragon champion, was not an Eye of Zhaitan.

 

The moment of killing Whiting is depicted the same as when Morgus Lethe is killed, or the Destroyer of Lives, or the Dragonspawn. It is depicted the same as when we killed General Azuldin during Temple of the Forgotten God.

Risen General Azuldin: No, no, no! The dragon is angry!

-Azuldin is killed-

Sayeh al' Rajihd: The dragon roars in fear! These ancient foundations will not withstand the sound.

But killing General Azuldin did not harm or hinder Zhaitan in any meaningful way. It angered Zhaitan, sure (well Sayeh says "fear" but "Kralkatorrik: Nothing terrifies an Elder Dragon." and fear can be mistaken from anger or surprise and I'm more inclined to trust Azuldin on Zhaitan's emotions), but that's it. There was no direct connection with Zhaitan.

One does not need to launch an invasion to be a major threat. To quote the game:

Lady Kasmeer Meade: Didn't know what to expect with the Risen armada—no one has dared travel this far into the sea in over a century.

Marjory Delaqua: Luckily Zhaitan's death seems to have left them a bit disorganized. We managed to slip past them on an airship.

Marjory Delaqua: Handy having a mesmer aboard.

They're not as big of a threat as when Zhaitan was alive, but it's still an armada that requires powerful mesmers to sneak past on an airship. A threat of 8 is still a major threat even if it's no longer a threat of 9.

Or to put it in a way of wording that you use: Again, did you even play the game

Now you are denying fact. Which is a dangerous sign.

Especially it was made clear that the ships require no communication to work together, obviously it was saying that they have direct connection. Otherwise how are they gonna do that without communicating what to do so?

Also that stare showed that Zhaitan can look through its champion and minions around it, not just the Eyes. It also showed that Whitining might got some similar treatment as the Eyes. Serving not as just Zhaitan's captain, but also as part of its vision.

Many Risen were mindless themselves, if Zhaitan didn't have direct communication to tell them, why would they follow orders? Risen are the most organized dragon minions, most of their assault came with preparation. We do see Zhaitan's champions giving order to some intelligent minions or less champions, but not telling every mindless ones what to do.

And your example pretty much proved my point.

Azuldin said the dragon is angry, but the whole armada and Maw wail in anguish, obviously it's showing Zhaitan was feeling pain.

Yeah the armada which much weaker now. It could only harass other ships rather than launching full scale assault on major factions. It's proving my point again.

They no longer have the super corruption power as well, nor do they have a super powerful base to prepare for everything and reinforcement. Whiting said that they would go back to Orr when it's taking too much damage.

Edited January 31 by Slowpokeking.8720

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

slowpoke, you are the one denying facts and ignoring established lore.

You lost the discussion on page one. Very hard. It is time to stop. It is obvious that you do not waste any thoughts on the facts presented to you and just repeat and repeat.

But for you I spell some things out a last time:

minions do not need a direct connection to work together. They only need a driving will and if there is more needed than simple 'kill' an champion who does the thinking for them.

Champions are a dime a douzend. Yes, Aurene had only one. Us. Zhaitans had hundreds of champions. Thousands maybe. Each able to act autonomously. As shown in douzends of events in openworld and story events. 

Zhaitan did not openly attack LA after the loss for 2 centuries because HE DID NOT NEED TO. He gambled a tiny bit of his force. If he would have won: great. He did not: no biggie. BECAUSE ZHAITAN HAS TIME AND RESSOURCES.

He attacked again during personal story. And it took him NOTHING to overrun Claw Island. But it took Tyria to combine the forces of all three Orders plus the Lion Guard. Plus a legendary hero (us) to take it back. 

Again, that was a MINISCULE part of his force. A recon operation at best. It almost meant the loss of Lion's Arch.

 

Oh and since you are bringing up Siren's all the time: Siren's landing is so dangerous, that the only researcher that ventured forth alone was killed. There is a reason they are all bunched up. 

I let Konig do the fact-slapping. He is good at it. But at this point you should really really start to think about what all those people who disagree with you are trying to tell you. Because so far you didn't.

Edited January 31 by VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.

[Kalavier.1097]

7 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Yeah, which means it could not make full offensive assault against major forces again, not facing

That single attack was Zhaitan's best chance to take out Lion's Arch and Kryta navy, and fully destroy the humans. The small pushes were mostly pushed back, or just making threat one the sea.

Orr was nowhere close to its former status as well, Unchained are nowhere close to the Risen which they were organized as a huge army. Nor do we see the Risen Giants or dragons filled in the ranks.

And most importantly, without Zhaitan, their corruption power is much much weaker now, only Teq showed some power but still far from Zhaitan.

Fact.

You forget that Zhaitan's goal is not "Conquer Kryta".

It's "Eat magic"

You are applying a military campaign goal onto something that doesn't give a care about that.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

9 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Now you are denying fact. Which is a dangerous sign.

Especially it was made clear that the ships require no communication to work together, obviously it was saying that they have direct connection. Otherwise how are they gonna do that without communicating what to do so?

Also that stare showed that Zhaitan can look through its champion and minions around it, not just the Eyes. It also showed that Whitining might got some similar treatment as the Eyes. Serving not as just Zhaitan's captain, but also as part of its vision.

Many Risen were mindless themselves, if Zhaitan didn't have direct communication to tell them, why would they follow orders? Risen are the most organized dragon minions, most of their assault came with preparation. We do see Zhaitan's champions giving order to some intelligent minions or less champions, but not telling every mindless ones what to do.

And your example pretty much proved my point.

Azuldin said the dragon is angry, but the whole armada and Maw wail in anguish, obviously it's showing Zhaitan was feeling pain.

Yeah the armada which much weaker now. It could only harass other ships rather than launching full scale assault on major factions. It's proving my point again.

They no longer have the super corruption power as well, nor do they have a super powerful base to prepare for everything and reinforcement. Whiting said that they would go back to Orr when it's taking too much damage.

I'm not ignoring any facts, you're creating facts from an assumed interpretation that has been debunked elsewhere with facts I brought up.

If everything you say was true, then the horrors and special skills of Mordremoth wouldn't be anything, well, special. The entire premise of HoT would just be "wait, we're doing this again?" instead of "oh kitten it's even worse now".

 

But what is a case of "wait, we're doing this again" is that this is just a repeat of that Charr invasion of Orr thread at this point. So I'm dipping out.

[Kalavier.1097]

Re-reading Claw Island dialogue, they bring up how the fortress has received 6 major assaults within four years before the events of personal story and the island being overrun.

So no, Sea of Sorrows books did not make the Risen fleet weak and not a threat.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Re-reading Claw Island dialogue, they bring up how the fortress has received 6 major assaults within four years before the events of personal story and the island being overrun.

So no, Sea of Sorrows books did not make the Risen fleet weak and not a threat.

Don't forget that Port Noble was destroyed in the same way as Port Stalwart, to the point that Port Noble and Port Stalwart are put side by side for how powerful the risen fleet was, after the events of Sea of Sorrows. Stalwart being destroyed during the novel.

[Kalavier.1097]

8 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Don't forget that Port Noble was destroyed in the same way as Port Stalwart, to the point that Port Noble and Port Stalwart are put side by side for how powerful the risen fleet was, after the events of Sea of Sorrows. Stalwart being destroyed during the novel.

Even after that battle of LA in Sea of Sorrow's, Zhaitan's armada ranked number 1 naval power in the known world.

Krytan Royal Navy lost it's three biggest ports, and was left in a defensive role only. The Lion's Arch navy is strong, but also defensive with it's major ships. Neither faction sailed past Orr after it's rise.

The Charr/Asura/Norn ships don't really form anything more then shipping vessels along the coast instead of a proper navy. The Istani Corsairs didn't travel north and neither did the Canthan Navy.

Zhaitan had an armada that was so strong it shut down all international sea travel for almost 100 years, and even then still holds a fear of any sea travel without mesmer cloaking or careful sailing. The sheer power his Risen fleets, dragons (who also travel underwater at times), and sea monsters still hold, even years after his death indicates that the Pact, Krytan Navy/Lionguard, or other forces with naval power still haven't attempted to actually sail out in an organized and massive manner to clear out the ocean beyond Orr, only apparently clearing enough of a path to reach Amnoon without issue or sail down the coastline to Elona.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 1/31/2024 at 8:38 AM, VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. said:

slowpoke, you are the one denying facts and ignoring established lore.

You lost the discussion on page one. Very hard. It is time to stop. It is obvious that you do not waste any thoughts on the facts presented to you and just repeat and repeat.

But for you I spell some things out a last time:

minions do not need a direct connection to work together. They only need a driving will and if there is more needed than simple 'kill' an champion who does the thinking for them.

Champions are a dime a douzend. Yes, Aurene had only one. Us. Zhaitans had hundreds of champions. Thousands maybe. Each able to act autonomously. As shown in douzends of events in openworld and story events. 

Zhaitan did not openly attack LA after the loss for 2 centuries because HE DID NOT NEED TO. He gambled a tiny bit of his force. If he would have won: great. He did not: no biggie. BECAUSE ZHAITAN HAS TIME AND RESSOURCES.

He attacked again during personal story. And it took him NOTHING to overrun Claw Island. But it took Tyria to combine the forces of all three Orders plus the Lion Guard. Plus a legendary hero (us) to take it back. 

Again, that was a MINISCULE part of his force. A recon operation at best. It almost meant the loss of Lion's Arch.

 

Oh and since you are bringing up Siren's all the time: Siren's landing is so dangerous, that the only researcher that ventured forth alone was killed. There is a reason they are all bunched up. 

I let Konig do the fact-slapping. He is good at it. But at this point you should really really start to think about what all those people who disagree with you are trying to tell you. Because so far you didn't.

Now you are ignoring fact and declare a win yourself. Which is a dangerous sign again.

Minions do, without direct connection these minions will not even have the intelligence to fufill the task. How are they gonna team work together if they don't share it?

Even after Whiting was killed, the xebecs could still form reasonable attacks and works. Did you even read the book?

Whiting is a Zhaitan

It took him to

Scout on Claw Island

Send small forces

Hide dead ships until time was right.

Send troop waves.

Bring a Dragon

Did you even play the game? Obviously a lot of effort and tactics was spent.

Yet he still lost his gain after a little while, all the forces were killed, then it's Zhaitan kitten kicking time. We wiped his forces and killed the dragon itself.

PLAY THE GAME, Zhaitan got his kitten kicked and dead.

Also Zhaitan did care, as Whiting ordered Indomitable to retreat to Orr when it was taking too much damage, and the rest of the Dead Ship was still attacking.

Edited February 1 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Slowpokeking.8720]

20 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

You forget that Zhaitan's goal is not "Conquer Kryta".

It's "Eat magic"

You are applying a military campaign goal onto something that doesn't give a care about that.

Oh really?

After Bronn was turned into Risen, he said "Zhaitan's will is my will." "The world will be reborn by the dragon's will. Death is the beginning."

Whiting: "The rule of the living had ended," "This is the time of the Elder Dragons, thus begins the time of Zhaitan and Orr. The day of their ultimate victory is close."

So you know better than the Risen themsevles?

Also the kingpin after Zhaitan was dead:

I am free. Free to continue dispensing Zhaitan's wrath to the world.

 

The world is already lost. Many more will die.

Edited February 1 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Slowpokeking.8720]

18 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I'm not ignoring any facts, you're creating facts from an assumed interpretation that has been debunked elsewhere with facts I brought up.

If everything you say was true, then the horrors and special skills of Mordremoth wouldn't be anything, well, special. The entire premise of HoT would just be "wait, we're doing this again?" instead of "oh kitten it's even worse now".

 

But what is a case of "wait, we're doing this again" is that this is just a repeat of that Charr invasion of Orr thread at this point. So I'm dipping out.

You are, I have stated many quotes in the book.

Zhaitan's aramda were working as one without communication, as the book said. The book also made clear that the dragon's will coordinate the Risen crew's movement. Livia also said they were under the dragon's command.

When Cobiah was started by Whiting and the minions around it, he felt Zhaitan was looking. That also proved that

1. Zhaitan was overseeing the battle.

2. Whiting was sharing Zhaitan's vision.

His death also dealt a big blow to the dragon as it screamed in anguish.

The book made kitten clear and you just keep to deny it.

Another quote that proved it's a big thing.

When Whiting said "The ship's taken too much damage. We must return to Orr." when the battle was not over as it continued after later he got killed. If Zhaitan never cared, he would let the fight continue rather than let them go back. Obviously Indominatable and the captain was important to him, and even let others spent effort to repair/reinforce it.

Edited February 1 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

5 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

You are, I have stated many quotes in the book.

You quoted the book, and ignore literally any other source that contradict your conclusions of a single piece of evidence taken in isolation.

One point of evidence does not form a conclusion. Just as one point on a map doesn't form a line.

Logic doesn't function fully in isolation.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

15 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

You quoted the book, and ignore literally any other source that contradict your conclusions of a single piece of evidence taken in isolation.

One point of evidence does not form a conclusion. Just as one point on a map doesn't form a line.

Logic doesn't function fully in isolation.

No other source said much about this battle or Whiting/Indomitable. The Maw's info was also mainly in this novel.

And nothing stated that Zhaitan never care about its assault/champions. Actually it's made clear that it relied on some of its champions and would be weakened by their death.

Most of its major attacks were also well prepared, even some small moves were filled with tricks. No dragon's minions were more organized than Zhaitan's Risen. And unlike most of the game info, the book used 3rd person view to explain something so it's more clear how it works.

Edited February 1 by Slowpokeking.8720