Conjured weapons usability

[draxynnic.3719]

13 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

I want there to be an trait like eng kit where you get an boon for just holding the conja wepon as your giving up the utility of 20+ skill from your wepon as well as the 1 utility slot. I am thinking at least an stab ever 3-5 sec as well as protection/reg. It would go a long way to making conja weapons more usability. (I am not sure if anet could program the boon effect to other ppl holding the conja wepon mind you but it would be an fun added conja wepon support effect.)

Technically speaking, you can get that. Lightning hammer has a blast finisher as part of the autoattack chain, which if combined with Catalyst turns into an aura and possibly stability, and if combined with other traits turns into other boons. You can also change attunements underneath the conjured weapon.

I do acknowledge that's not quite what you had in mind, though.

However, there's a lot of cool interactions conjured weapons have already, the problem is that they're so awkward to use.

[zeyeti.8347]

6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Technically speaking, you can get that. Lightning hammer has a blast finisher as part of the autoattack chain, which if combined with Catalyst turns into an aura and possibly stability, and if combined with other traits turns into other boons. You can also change attunements underneath the conjured weapon.

I do acknowledge that's not quite what you had in mind, though.

However, there's a lot of cool interactions conjured weapons have already, the problem is that they're so awkward to use.

Those weapons have the same design as ele weapons , they have no defined role , every ele weapons has "some" cc , "some" damage , "some" healing , we need a weapon who is good in every attunement at a specific role , and those conjure weapons could be that way ... with a solid 1.0 to 2.0 rework ! Nobody like to use them , they have one trait that work with them who is crap tier , have tremendous long cd and with ele having 3/4 of his skills in hidden cooldowns we don't need another set of X x 5 skills on hidden cooldowns.

The full cocnept of those weapons are at the image of the elementalist , cluncky.

[draxynnic.3719]

16 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Those weapons have the same design as ele weapons , they have no defined role , every ele weapons has "some" cc , "some" damage , "some" healing , we need a weapon who is good in every attunement at a specific role , and those conjure weapons could be that way ... with a solid 1.0 to 2.0 rework ! Nobody like to use them , they have one trait that work with them who is crap tier , have tremendous long cd and with ele having 3/4 of his skills in hidden cooldowns we don't need another set of X x 5 skills on hidden cooldowns.

The full cocnept of those weapons are at the image of the elementalist , cluncky.

Eh, I think the main culprit there is ice bow since they decided to put a heal on the autoattack that really wasn't necessary. Lightning hammer combines damage with a bit of CC, but plenty of good weapons combine damage and CC. Earth shield is a great defensive/tanking option, problem is that unless you have really good APM, by the time you've activated the conjure, placed the second weapon, completed the conjure, and activated a defensive skill, the hit you wanted to block has probably already landed. Flame Axe's problem is that they made it a 'ranged autoattack but most of the other skills are close range' weapon similar to rifle, which isn't much help if what you want is a weapon to get you through a ranged phase before switching back to sword.

Earth shield and lightning hammer probably just need a streamlining of the conjure mechanics generally and maybe some number tweaks. Flame axe and frost bow do need a bit more purity of purpose, though.

[zeyeti.8347]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Eh, I think the main culprit there is ice bow since they decided to put a heal on the autoattack that really wasn't necessary. Lightning hammer combines damage with a bit of CC, but plenty of good weapons combine damage and CC. Earth shield is a great defensive/tanking option, problem is that unless you have really good APM, by the time you've activated the conjure, placed the second weapon, completed the conjure, and activated a defensive skill, the hit you wanted to block has probably already landed. Flame Axe's problem is that they made it a 'ranged autoattack but most of the other skills are close range' weapon similar to rifle, which isn't much help if what you want is a weapon to get you through a ranged phase before switching back to sword.

Earth shield and lightning hammer probably just need a streamlining of the conjure mechanics generally and maybe some number tweaks. Flame axe and frost bow do need a bit more purity of purpose, though.

The shield as a defensiv tool -> need to be responsive , first summoning your weapon , then guessing when the main skill cooldowns is off and picking up the 2nd weapon on the ground (supposing nobody else took it up.... i do it to kitten off the ele  and show him playing with those dumb skills is an error) , hammer has one efficient cc and a copycat of air staff 5 who is useless out of pvp /wvw, shortbow is a mess ... and axe , wth is axe , some skills had  no updates till game release ... an overhaul is needed , even Fiery gs is outdated , it's only efficient for some narrow uptime mobility.

agree with the shiled , it's a selfless skill who should have been group focused , the kitten thing is on a whole 60 sec cd, look at the updates on the skills from the start of the game .... mostly bug fixes and some poor fixes , what i think is anet cannot work with the weird code the conjure are working on  , and thus is afraid any modification will produce a plethora of bugs , cause the conjure use some copycat skill who could affect the actual weapon skill in the game , like Evasive Arcana not procing in fire cause they adjusted the skill this trait is copying from staff fire 3.

No really i can't see any way in term of efficiency talking in a good way about conjure weapon , the design of them is utter garbage , was fun on the release of the game , but that's 12 years ago , skills needs to keep up with the speed of the game , nowaday there is no room for such cluncky designed weapon skills and especially the whole conjure mechanic who is just a copypast of engi skill , but with a cast time and a cooldown ... just put a cd and cooldown to engi grenades and you will see : nobody will use the kit anymore , conjure weapons needs fluidity first , then rework all the skills , and i mean rework cause 75% of the them are just bad , very bad.

Edited February 29 by zeyeti.8347

[cheese.4739]

Quote

Also since kits already exist, I feel like that would be an easy change to make.

Near to launch, there was a lot of concern about having each profession have a unique 'feel'. ANet really didn't want Engi kits to lose their identity as a special type of skill for that profession.

Since then, of course, all sorts of overlaps have appeared between the professions. And conjured weapons have been incredibly niche for so long, with only the shield occasionally being brought out in PvP or the frost bow being an awkward CC against some bosses in PvE.

I'd like them to be reworked into 'temporary kits', which could be swapped into and out of at will but only for a fixed duration (and with no second copy on the ground). I'm thinking maybe a 33-50% uptime for them?

After the change to kits was implemented they could have their skills tweaked as necessary, but they definitely need to become less awkward than they are now before it becomes worth trying to balance them around their constituent skills. As things are, the frost bow should just be replaced with its #5 skill alone to be an easy CC utility.

[draxynnic.3719]

16 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

The shield as a defensiv tool -> need to be responsive , first summoning your weapon , then guessing when the main skill cooldowns is off and picking up the 2nd weapon on the ground (supposing nobody else took it up.... i do it to kitten off the ele  and show him playing with those dumb skills is an error) , hammer has one efficient cc and a copycat of air staff 5 who is useless out of pvp /wvw, shortbow is a mess ... and axe , wth is axe , some skills had  no updates till game release ... an overhaul is needed , even Fiery gs is outdated , it's only efficient for some narrow uptime mobility.

agree with the shiled , it's a selfless skill who should have been group focused , the kitten thing is on a whole 60 sec cd, look at the updates on the skills from the start of the game .... mostly bug fixes and some poor fixes , what i think is anet cannot work with the weird code the conjure are working on  , and thus is afraid any modification will produce a plethora of bugs , cause the conjure use some copycat skill who could affect the actual weapon skill in the game , like Evasive Arcana not procing in fire cause they adjusted the skill this trait is copying from staff fire 3.

No really i can't see any way in term of efficiency talking in a good way about conjure weapon , the design of them is utter garbage , was fun on the release of the game , but that's 12 years ago , skills needs to keep up with the speed of the game , nowaday there is no room for such cluncky designed weapon skills and especially the whole conjure mechanic who is just a copypast of engi skill , but with a cast time and a cooldown ... just put a cd and cooldown to engi grenades and you will see : nobody will use the kit anymore , conjure weapons needs fluidity first , then rework all the skills , and i mean rework cause 75% of the them are just bad , very bad.

I mean, I've been saying all along that the method of summoning them needs to be more responsive, including removing the second conjure on the floor (or at least making it optional) in exchange for a shorter cooldown?

That in itself would pretty much fix Earth Shield for its intended purpose. It gets used in sPvP by players that have the ping, reflexes, and APM to get it to work fast enough. You could say that it should have more support, but why? Shields aren't inherently support weapons unless you're a guardian or revenant, and even then the primary function is often keeping the shieldbearer alive.

Lightning hammer has a pretty typical hammer playstyle. It doesn't matter if some of the skill effects are used elsewhere. It's a mix of CC skills and damage skills that exploit that CC just like warrior, guard, engineer, and ranger hammers. In terms of identity, it's fine.

Flame axe and ice bow have the problems I described.

[zeyeti.8347]

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I mean, I've been saying all along that the method of summoning them needs to be more responsive, including removing the second conjure on the floor (or at least making it optional) in exchange for a shorter cooldown?

That in itself would pretty much fix Earth Shield for its intended purpose. It gets used in sPvP by players that have the ping, reflexes, and APM to get it to work fast enough. You could say that it should have more support, but why? Shields aren't inherently support weapons unless you're a guardian or revenant, and even then the primary function is often keeping the shieldbearer alive.

Lightning hammer has a pretty typical hammer playstyle. It doesn't matter if some of the skill effects are used elsewhere. It's a mix of CC skills and damage skills that exploit that CC just like warrior, guard, engineer, and ranger hammers. In terms of identity, it's fine.

Flame axe and ice bow have the problems I described.

i am talking about pve specifically : the way every conjure weapon is used is like that :

-drop it 

-use 1-2 skill usefull for your purpose

-drop it

i mean basically for example you use fiery gs for skill 4 and 5 then you drop it , isn't that wasted for a 180 sec cd skill ? ele is about maximizing use of all skills from each attunement , so we don't need another pair of 5 skill with hidden cooldowns , and that second weapon drop on the floor is so freaking janky , with pugs you don't have the slightest idea if this weapon is gonna stay to add it to your rotation or being picked up ... for me the most horrendous design of skill in the game are by far the conjure weapons , a lot of ppl hate using them , make ele even more complicated than it already is.

and hammer has maybe 2 usefull skills , , the cc who is weak anyway (basically on a 45 sec cd : the cd of the weapon , you not gonna stay 15 sec in hammer just to wait to this skill to recharge ....)  , and the 4 who is a wish version of storm from glyph.

those weapons need specific roles , not mixed skills who make them meh-useless in any situation , weapons for deeps , weapon for defense , for cc , mobility ... so you are emphasize to use all skill of the weapon when you drop it , not just 1-2 skill ....

A nice idea a saw on reddit is summoning the weapon change your 3 utility slots (not the heal and the ult , would be op) in very specific role from each weapon , so it doesnt take the room of already really numerous weapon skills, nice idea cause utilitys from ele are on a fairly long cd so you could sue it when the cd is looping.

Edited March 1 by zeyeti.8347

[draxynnic.3719]

Specific roles are exactly what I'm asking for myself, albeit in a context of 'something you bring along to fill a gap in what your primary weapon offers' rather than something that you just toss into a rotation to bump your DPS up by 5%.

Shield is your substitute for a defensive set. It just needs smoother conjure mechanics and maybe some numbers tweaks. PvE use case: You're tanking, or you're getting pressured in open world and need some recovery time.

Hammer is a substitute for a melee set. It's skills are in line with melee hammers on other professions: a mix of melee damage and CCs that help keep you from being overwhelmed. It, too, just needs smoother conjure mechanics and maybe some numbers tweaks. PvE use case: You're getting mobbed, or your regular weapon is projectile-based and the enemy just used projectile hate, or it's one of those enemies that just decides it's going to be immune to ranged for some reason.

Axe and bow are the problematic ones. Axe needs to be full ranged: there's no use case for a conjure that tries to have it both ways. Bow needs to decide on whether it's support or ranged damage and just commit.

Greatsword is an elite, so it can be allowed to be 'just be stronger for the duration'. Take away the second weapon so they don't need to factor in two people getting that powerup (or the powerup lasting twice as long) and it can be balanced appropriately.

[Phyrak.7260]

I may be in the minority here;

Perhaps a full scale rework on conjure weapons themselves.

Having them as a structural override to the nominal weapons letting you functionally camp an element - filling out the element by generalising.

Water can heal but can deal heavy damage to vuln, chilled targets etc.

Basically letting you become an archetypal element master in that particular element.

As for the elite; being the pragmatic avatar without the need to swap elements - but the element you're in takes focus perse.

Air grants harder crits

Earth applies more conditions

Etc

Alongside passive might generation, cleanses etc

Let the elementalist's floaty arm bits become a weapon! 

[Jski.6180]

The conja weapons them self act too much like kits only filling one main roll and not like weapons that often are mix rolls. My suggestion of making them get boons though builds passive would go a long way to letting attk conaj weapons that have no means of def and more def conaj wepon have no real dmg fill an more usability beyond that of one skill and done.

Another chose would be letting conja weapons have some utility build in even if its just 1 stun brake on attk conaj weapons and 1 burst dmg on def weapons (though even the def weapons need stun brakes condi clears etc...)

As things stand conaj weapons are not real weapons they are kits with a very long cd and cast time. There usability is just bad beyond the one skill and done use.

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

The conja weapons them self act too much like kits only filling one main roll and not like weapons that often are mix rolls. My suggestion of making them get boons though builds passive would go a long way to letting attk conaj weapons that have no means of def and more def conaj wepon have no real dmg fill an more usability beyond that of one skill and done.

Another chose would be letting conja weapons have some utility build in even if its just 1 stun brake on attk conaj weapons and 1 burst dmg on def weapons (though even the def weapons need stun brakes condi clears etc...)

As things stand conaj weapons are not real weapons they are kits with a very long cd and cast time. There usability is just bad beyond the one skill and done use.

And someone was just saying earlier in the thread that conjures were bad because their abilities were spread out in function and the conjure as a whole didn't have a defined role...

Functionally, they ARE kits, with restrictions on how freely you can swap into them since elementalist also has attunement-swapping. Each conjure having a defined function would be a GOOD thing: you'd then slot it if that function is useful to you. Which isn't to say that they should be overly narrow in their focus, but they should all have a clearly defined use case.

[Tempest.8479]

At this point I'd rather conjured weapons be reworked altogether. It's become increasingly clear that adding that many potential skills to a class with the most skills available provides a balancing nightmare that has left these skills feeling underwhelming and/or too situational. It might be easier at this point to distill the weapons down into a single skill that conjures the weapon and performs an action, then grants temporary access to a flip-over skill before going on cooldown. That way, the conjures could be balanced around a couple of skills each rather than as an entirely new weapon set. I could see the utility skills becoming something like this:

• Conjure Flame Axe
  • Conjure a flame axe and throw it at a target area, burning enemies it passes through. The axe remains buried at the target location, periodically burning nearby enemies and granting access to Flaming Return.
    • Flaming Return (Flip-Over)
      • Recall the flame axe to your location in an explosive surge of energy, burning enemies it passes through before exploding when it reaches your location. This explosion damages and burns nearby enemies. Pass-through burning, explosion damage, and explosion burning all increase with how long the axe remained at the target location.
• Conjure Ice Bow
  • Conjure an ice bow and fire three frozen arrows at a target area that damage and chill foes while making them vulnerable. These arrows melt into a pool of water that periodically heals allies inside and grants access to Deep Freeze.
    • Deep Freeze (Flip-Over)
      • Violently freeze the pool of water, damaging and chilling foes inside while granting allies frost aura. Chilled foes are immobilized instead.
• Conjure Lightning Hammer
  • Conjure a lightning hammer, damaging and launching your foe with a banishing smash. Successfully landing this attack grants access to Lightning Leap.
    • Lightning Leap (Flip-Over)
      • Leap at an area with your hammer, shattering it in a blast of electrical damage that blinds foes. This skill deals increased damage to disabled or defiant foes
• Conjure Earth Shield
  • Conjure an earth shield and fortify yourself, blocking all attacks for a period. Channeling this skill grants access to Stone Surge.
    • Stone Surge (Flip-Over)
      • Shatter your fortifications in a surge of energy that bleeds foes around you and grants you resistance and resolution. Bleeding and boon durations are increased per attack blocked.

 

Each of these skills would have anywhere from a 25-45s cooldown. I don't really have any concrete ideas on how the elite could work, but I think it should become Conjure Elemental Greatsword and perform an attack/flip-over skill that incorporates all of the elements rather than just fire.

As for the Conjurer trait, I think it could be moved into a master or grandmaster slot, maybe even out of the fire line as well, and be reworked to improve the effects of those skills like the new arcane grandmaster trait is going to do in the next update. The trait could work something like this:

• Conjurer
  • Conjured weapon skills are improved
    • Conjure Flame Axe: Flaming Return also grants might to allies the axe passes through, as well as to nearby allies when it explodes. This might increases with how long the axe remained at the target location.
    • Conjure Ice Bow: Deep Freeze deals additional damage to vulnerable foes
    • Conjure Lightning Hammer: Lightning Leap grants you quickness per enemy struck
    • Conjure Earth Shield: The boons granted by Stone Surge are shared with nearby allies.

 

Edited March 7 by Tempest.8479

[Jski.6180]

6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

And someone was just saying earlier in the thread that conjures were bad because their abilities were spread out in function and the conjure as a whole didn't have a defined role...

Functionally, they ARE kits, with restrictions on how freely you can swap into them since elementalist also has attunement-swapping. Each conjure having a defined function would be a GOOD thing: you'd then slot it if that function is useful to you. Which isn't to say that they should be overly narrow in their focus, but they should all have a clearly defined use case.

The only spread out conja would be frost bow that thing is all over the place i do not get the point of that thing at all.

[draxynnic.3719]

44 minutes ago, Tempest.8479 said:

At this point I'd rather conjured weapons be reworked altogether. It's become increasingly clear that adding that many potential skills to a class with the most skills available provides a balancing nightmare that has left these skills feeling underwhelming and/or too situational. It might be easier at this point to distill the weapons down into a single skill that conjures the weapon and performs an action, then grants temporary access to a flip-over skill before going on cooldown. That way, the conjures could be balanced around a couple of skills each rather than as an entirely new weapon set.

 

I disagree. Elementalist weapon skills are already balanced for having four sets of them - if anything, that might even make adding one more less impactful apart from one of the big weaknesses elementalist has: versatility. Other professions can choose their weapons to complement one another, with one weaponset covering for the weaknesses of the other. Swapping between a ranged set and a melee set is one example, but others exist.

That's not something an elementalist can naturally do. The skills you get from your weaponset are the skills you get. Hammer is the closest to having a ranged mode and a melee mode, but for a number of reasons, the ranged mode doesn't really work as such. Furthermore, on most weaponsets, unless you're running celestial there are skills that just aren't going to be worth using: power skills on condi builds (note: viper's is at least semi-hybrid), condition skills on full power builds (fire attunement is typically hybrid), healing skills with low base healing and high coefficient on any build that isn't a healer.

If balanced appropriately, and the jankiness of trying to use them reduced, conjures could fill that gap.

1 minute ago, Jski.6180 said:

The only spread out conja would be frost bow that thing is all over the place i do not get the point of that thing at all.

Flame Axe is ranged on the first two skills, but the 3, 4, and 5 skills are apparently designed around a playstyle of jumping in, dropping a ring of fire, and then rolling out. Except it doesn't want you to use a simple 5-4-3 sequence because Fired Up is a non-stacking buff that makes your autoattack stronger, so what it really wants you to do is 2-1-5-1-4-1-3-1-2-1. The spammable skills are also full power, while the 15s cooldown skills are varying levels of power-oriented, so while it doesn't have Ice Bow's weird "the autoattack seems oriented towards being a healing weapon, but everything else is mostly power" thing, Ice Bow would at least be fairly consistently power-oriented and range-oriented if Water Arrow was rebalanced as power damage skill rather than a healing skill.

Earth Shield has a bit of an issue with the spammable skills being bleeding-oriented and the later skills being more power-oriented as well. That's a relatively minor offender, but there is the potential, with a significant rework to flame axe and smaller changes to the others, to imagine a situation where Fire, Water, Air and Earth were ranged condi, ranged power, melee power, and melee condi respectively (with some secondary functions like lightning hammer bringing extra control and earth shield bringing lots of defensive skills).

If, that is, the jankiness with using conjures in the first place was addressed.

[Jski.6180]

10 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I disagree. Elementalist weapon skills are already balanced for having four sets of them - if anything, that might even make adding one more less impactful apart from one of the big weaknesses elementalist has: versatility. Other professions can choose their weapons to complement one another, with one weaponset covering for the weaknesses of the other. Swapping between a ranged set and a melee set is one example, but others exist.

That's not something an elementalist can naturally do. The skills you get from your weaponset are the skills you get. Hammer is the closest to having a ranged mode and a melee mode, but for a number of reasons, the ranged mode doesn't really work as such. Furthermore, on most weaponsets, unless you're running celestial there are skills that just aren't going to be worth using: power skills on condi builds (note: viper's is at least semi-hybrid), condition skills on full power builds (fire attunement is typically hybrid), healing skills with low base healing and high coefficient on any build that isn't a healer.

If balanced appropriately, and the jankiness of trying to use them reduced, conjures could fill that gap.

Flame Axe is ranged on the first two skills, but the 3, 4, and 5 skills are apparently designed around a playstyle of jumping in, dropping a ring of fire, and then rolling out. Except it doesn't want you to use a simple 5-4-3 sequence because Fired Up is a non-stacking buff that makes your autoattack stronger, so what it really wants you to do is 2-1-5-1-4-1-3-1-2-1. The spammable skills are also full power, while the 15s cooldown skills are varying levels of power-oriented, so while it doesn't have Ice Bow's weird "the autoattack seems oriented towards being a healing weapon, but everything else is mostly power" thing, Ice Bow would at least be fairly consistently power-oriented and range-oriented if Water Arrow was rebalanced as power damage skill rather than a healing skill.

Earth Shield has a bit of an issue with the spammable skills being bleeding-oriented and the later skills being more power-oriented as well. That's a relatively minor offender, but there is the potential, with a significant rework to flame axe and smaller changes to the others, to imagine a situation where Fire, Water, Air and Earth were ranged condi, ranged power, melee power, and melee condi respectively (with some secondary functions like lightning hammer bringing extra control and earth shield bringing lots of defensive skills).

If, that is, the jankiness with using conjures in the first place was addressed.

The healing is just very out of places like they forgot to add in an healing skill conja weapons something ele realty could get a lot of use out of much like ele gets a lot of use of an elite skill conja FG.

Flame axe seems to be more about generating might and landing a big hit its fine but its kind of out classed by FGS or lighting hammer over all.

The shield use to have an good dps on its auto attk though barrier buffing its dmg by 100% but anet took that away. The fact the earth shield has an set of def skill makes it most usable then the others the same could be said for FGS.

Frost bow is trash. Its an pure one skill and done wepon and even that not that effective. Anet has no ideal and has given up doing any thing with that conja wepon. They would be better off removing it form the game and adding in the heal skill conja wepon the ele needs badly.

Its the lack of more weapon like skills set up that holds conja weapons back and makes them into full kits that have massive draw back when you turn off the wepon your holding unlike real kits.

 

[draxynnic.3719]

14 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

The healing is just very out of places like they forgot to add in an healing skill conja weapons something ele realty could get a lot of use out of much like ele gets a lot of use of an elite skill conja FG.

Yeah, any healing conjure would need to be dedicated to it.

14 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Flame axe seems to be more about generating might and landing a big hit its fine but its kind of out classed by FGS or lighting hammer over all.

Being outclassed by FGS is to be expected - FGS is a long-recharge elite, after all. Being outclassed by LH is, I think, a function of not knowing its lane. It could be a ranged weapon, a condi weapon, or both, but instead it's a weird mix that puts it in direct competition with LH.

14 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

The shield use to have an good dps on its auto attk though barrier buffing its dmg by 100% but anet took that away. The fact the earth shield has an set of def skill makes it most usable then the others the same could be said for FGS.

Yeah, it's more defensive than offensive, but if it was consistently condi-oriented, that would further distinguish it from LH. 

14 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Frost bow is trash. Its an pure one skill and done wepon and even that not that effective. Anet has no ideal and has given up doing any thing with that conja wepon. They would be better off removing it form the game and adding in the heal skill conja wepon the ele needs badly.

That's more of a specific numbers issue than a design issue, though. 

14 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Its the lack of more weapon like skills set up that holds conja weapons back and makes them into full kits that have massive draw back when you turn off the wepon your holding unlike real kits.

The jankiness of summoning them is a problem. Removing the second weapon and cutting the cooldown by half would make summoning them more responsive, while also making it possible to have one indefinitely without worrying about someone else picking it up. Potentially losing access to the conjure if you drop it before it expires seems a reasonable trade for elementalist having attunements rather than being built almost entirely around (theoretically) strong utility skills like engineer.

With what I envision, competing with the core weapons is not something I'd consider necessary or even desirable. The idea is to complement them. A fixed Ice Bow or Flame Axe, for instance, doesn't have to be competitive against ranged options like scepter to be useful - what it needs is something to be practical to pull out on a sword, dagger, or hammer build when staying up close isn't practical. Similarly, LH doesn't need to be a better melee weapon than sword or (regular) hammer, it just needs to be good enough that a scepter, pistol, or staff ele might pull it out to get around projectile hate (less necessary for scepter...), CC, or otherwise do melee things.

[Tempest.8479]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

disagree. Elementalist weapon skills are already balanced for having four sets of them - if anything, that might even make adding one more less impactful apart from one of the big weaknesses elementalist has: versatility. Other professions can choose their weapons to complement one another, with one weaponset covering for the weaknesses of the other. Swapping between a ranged set and a melee set is one example, but others exist.

That's not something an elementalist can naturally do. The skills you get from your weaponset are the skills you get. Hammer is the closest to having a ranged mode and a melee mode, but for a number of reasons, the ranged mode doesn't really work as such. Furthermore, on most weaponsets, unless you're running celestial there are skills that just aren't going to be worth using: power skills on condi builds (note: viper's is at least semi-hybrid), condition skills on full power builds (fire attunement is typically hybrid), healing skills with low base healing and high coefficient on any build that isn't a healer.

If balanced appropriately, and the jankiness of trying to use them reduced, conjures could fill that gap.

This isn't something I necessarily disagree with. There's definitely an argument to be made that the elementalist, a class designed around its versatility, is actually significantly less flexible because its traits and actual attunement skills don't actually complement/synergize well with each other. There's another thread here about attunements being too specialized, and you're right when it comes to hammer being the only real attempt at a mixed-range kit for elementalists.

My only argument is that conjured weapons, as they exist presently, are only weapons that you would swap to in order to use 1-2 skills at best. I think it would be easier to balance these weapons as a pair of skills that work really well, ideally on shorter cooldowns that could be used more frequently, than it would be to create what would amount to 5 separate, cohesive, competitive, but not overwhelming, weapon sets that can theoretically be equipped nearly all at once. I think building conjures to work as I suggest would allow an elementalist to have a complementary pair of skills, potentially more, that can be used when they are pushed outside of the bounds that their weapon skills would allow without becoming so unwieldy that they end up feeling abandoned by ever-changing balance.

Edited March 7 by Tempest.8479

[SJWhat.9237]

Making Conjured weapons usable is so incredibly simple in concept that I'm not really sure why they haven't done it yet.
1) Remove the summon at location effect. Make them only appear in your hands.
2) Cut the recharge to 30 seconds.

This makes less clunky to switch to since you wouldn't have to place them anymore. Furthermore it would allow you to upkeep them fairly easily since their duration and recharge would match. An ele player can still dump the weapon via weapon swap, but would still have to wait for the recharge to summon it again. Also since the longest weapon skill recharges for some weapons is also 30 seconds it all kind of syncs up. I'm sure the numbers can be tweaked a little bit.

Fiery Greatsword would function similarly. Cut the recharge to say 60 seconds, and add the on summon aoe to the caster instead of a targeted location. This would make them functionally different from kits, while making them kit-like enough to be functional as weapon swap for elementalists.

[draxynnic.3719]

10 hours ago, Tempest.8479 said:

This isn't something I necessarily disagree with. There's definitely an argument to be made that the elementalist, a class designed around its versatility, is actually significantly less flexible because its traits and actual attunement skills don't actually complement/synergize well with each other. There's another thread here about attunements being too specialized, and you're right when it comes to hammer being the only real attempt at a mixed-range kit for elementalists.

My only argument is that conjured weapons, as they exist presently, are only weapons that you would swap to in order to use 1-2 skills at best. I think it would be easier to balance these weapons as a pair of skills that work really well, ideally on shorter cooldowns that could be used more frequently, than it would be to create what would amount to 5 separate, cohesive, competitive, but not overwhelming, weapon sets that can theoretically be equipped nearly all at once. I think building conjures to work as I suggest would allow an elementalist to have a complementary pair of skills, potentially more, that can be used when they are pushed outside of the bounds that their weapon skills would allow without becoming so unwieldy that they end up feeling abandoned by ever-changing balance.

Guardians don't typically respond to having to fight at range by throwing spirit weapons at the target. That's pretty much the equivalent of what you're proposing here: you're basically turning conjures into gadgets with a flipover. Simple 'press to do X' is a functionality that glyphs, cantrips, and arcane skills are supposed to cover.

With a few tweaks, though, they can perform the function of giving versatility, particularly ranged versatility, back to the elementalist. They can be balanced so that apart from FGS they're not something you'd use in a typical rotation at all, not even something you pull out for one or two strong skills only to drop it again, but something you can pull out when a situation arises where your normal rotation just isn't going to work. 

9 hours ago, SJWhat.9237 said:

Making Conjured weapons usable is so incredibly simple in concept that I'm not really sure why they haven't done it yet.
1) Remove the summon at location effect. Make them only appear in your hands.
2) Cut the recharge to 30 seconds.

This makes less clunky to switch to since you wouldn't have to place them anymore. Furthermore it would allow you to upkeep them fairly easily since their duration and recharge would match. An ele player can still dump the weapon via weapon swap, but would still have to wait for the recharge to summon it again. Also since the longest weapon skill recharges for some weapons is also 30 seconds it all kind of syncs up. I'm sure the numbers can be tweaked a little bit.

Fiery Greatsword would function similarly. Cut the recharge to say 60 seconds, and add the on summon aoe to the caster instead of a targeted location. This would make them functionally different from kits, while making them kit-like enough to be functional as weapon swap for elementalists.

Pretty much exactly what I've been saying. 50% uptime for FGS feels like it might be a bit high, but otherwise...

[Downstate.4697]

Conjures are okay. My issue is how responsive they feel in the heat of combat. Ice bow feels too slow. Fire axe doesn’t do enough damage. Earth and lightning feel good. The cast time and summoning them I think holds it back a lot.

[Tempest.8479]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Guardians don't typically respond to having to fight at range by throwing spirit weapons at the target. That's pretty much the equivalent of what you're proposing here: you're basically turning conjures into gadgets with a flipover. Simple 'press to do X' is a functionality that glyphs, cantrips, and arcane skills are supposed to cover.

While I agree with you about how other classes would handle ranged combat as close range fighters, I don't think utility skills should be where an ele looks to solve that problem. Utility skills should be there to provide some utility and situational/playstyle synergies, not the solution to the limits placed on a class's weapon skills. The solution, in my opinion, is to actually introduce mixed ranges into the four sets of weapon skills an ele already has access to.

While my solution might not look that different from spirit weapons or gadgets, I actually think they would be pretty distinct because the pair of each conjured weapon's skills would synergize with each other the way certain weapon skills work on other classes, like ranger greatsword or guardian hammer, or even the way some of the new ele scepter skills work.

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

With a few tweaks, though, they can perform the function of giving versatility, particularly ranged versatility, back to the elementalist. They can be balanced so that apart from FGS they're not something you'd use in a typical rotation at all, not even something you pull out for one or two strong skills only to drop it again, but something you can pull out when a situation arises where your normal rotation just isn't going to work.

The reason I don't think conjures will become that much more usable by reducing their cooldown or eliminating their casting times is because they replace your weapon skills. If what you're suggesting means that they won't be used in a typical rotation at all, then there's no amount of ranged flexibility that would get me to replace my weapon skills, thereby limiting what flexibility I do have, over slotting a skill like lightning flash, signet of fire, or glyph of storms. These skills provide additional utility that can be used in tandem with my weapon skills, as well as providing . Even defensive skills like arcane shield can justify a slot because you know you might need to react defensively at some point.

The problem with conjures becomes that if they're only useful when your typical rotation doesn't work, then they suffer from what they already suffer from now. They become too situational to the point of irrelevance. And the second they become more useful, they run the risk of becoming too oppressive because they provide one or more entire new weapon sets to add to your rotation. If they're balanced as what they should be, which is utility skills rather than weapons, then there's a chance they can find a niche for an ele to use them often enough to justify their existence without sacrificing the weapon skills that the class already has plenty of. 

If any encounter in the game demands that you spend a significant portion of your time using the weapon skills that a conjured weapon provides, as a class designed with 4 sets of skills to begin with, then I think that's a problem that should be addressed with the weapon skills themselves.

Edited March 7 by Tempest.8479

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Tempest.8479 said:

While I agree with you about how other classes would handle ranged combat as close range fighters, I don't think utility skills should be where an ele looks to solve that problem. Utility skills should be there to provide some utility and situational/playstyle synergies, not the solution to the limits placed on a class's weapon skills. The solution, in my opinion, is to actually introduce mixed ranges into the four sets of weapon skills an ele already has access to.

Go say that to engineer. It's probably not a coincidence that the professions that have no regular weaponswap are also the ones that have the ability to bring utility skills that have the function of replacing their weapon skills. Because, from a design perspective, this brings back the ability to supplement weaknesses of their main weapon through those utility skills. Professions with weaponswap don't have this because they don't need it: they have weaponswap. But utilities on all professions are, broadly speaking, something that rounds out your build - in professions without weaponswap, that includes serving as a substitute for weaponswap if one weapon set isn't providing everything you need.

Elementalist having attunements (as opposed to engineer not having anything inherent to the core profession that changes their weapon skills apart from kits) is why conjures will probably never be quite as convenient as engineers freely swapping through kits with no cooldown, but the same general principle applies.

As for your "solution" - at this stage you're calling for a deep rework to the existing weapons AND to the conjure utility group as a whole. Not only is that far more work than fixing conjures while broadly maintaining their current functionality would be, but I expect it would also face resistance from the people who like the weapons as they are. Giving hammer some real ranged capability on its ranged attunements would probably be fairly noncontroversial, but the people who campaigned for elementalist to get a true melee weapon might not be happy about one of the current sword attunements being sacrificed to make a ranged attunement, and as much as staff air is regarded as a bit of a meme, I don't think staff fans really want air to be reworked into a melee attunement for the sake of having a means to get through projectile hate when needed where Conjure Lightning Hammer could do. Reworking conjures to fill that role would both be the easier option (they're so close to being able to do it already) and wouldn't risk the massive backlash and balance chaos that trying to rework every elementalist weapon into a mixed-range weapon might bring.

1 hour ago, Tempest.8479 said:

While my solution might not look that different from spirit weapons or gadgets, I actually think they would be pretty distinct because the pair of each conjured weapon's skills would synergize with each other the way certain weapon skills work on other classes, like ranger greatsword or guardian hammer, or even the way some of the new ele scepter skills work.

Or, y'know, the conjured weapon skills can synergise with each other by being a set of weapon skills that synergise with each other. I think that's far more distinct than copying willbender flipover utilities.

1 hour ago, Tempest.8479 said:

The reason I don't think conjures will become that much more usable by reducing their cooldown or eliminating their casting times is because they replace your weapon skills. If what you're suggesting means that they won't be used in a typical rotation at all, then there's no amount of ranged flexibility that would get me to replace my weapon skills, thereby limiting what flexibility I do have, over slotting a skill like lightning flash, signet of fire, or glyph of storms. These skills provide additional utility that can be used in tandem with my weapon skills, as well as providing . Even defensive skills like arcane shield can justify a slot because you know you might need to react defensively at some point.

With all due respect, it's not all about you or what you'd do. If you're already so enamoured of skills like lightning flash, signet of fire, glyph of storms, or arcane shield, then your proposed rework is already going to be creating skills that compete with skills that are already doing that. Conjures that replace your weapon skills, however, do have some ability to have a bigger power budget, because part of their price is that you're committing to not using your weapon skills at the same time. Earth Shield, for instance, just about outperforms Arcane Shield through Fortify alone without even considering the rest of the skills, which is why it gets used in sPvP by people who have the reflexes and APM to conjure it and activate Fortify in time - but you pay for that by swapping out of your regular weapon skills. If your proposed change was made to Earth Shield, then for catalysts it's going to overlap pretty heavily with Fortified Earth, and it will probably have a significantly higher recharge.

1 hour ago, Tempest.8479 said:

The problem with conjures becomes that if they're only useful when your typical rotation doesn't work, then they suffer from what they already suffer from now. They become too situational to the point of irrelevance. And the second they become more useful, they run the risk of becoming too oppressive because they provide one or more entire new weapon sets to add to your rotation. If they're balanced as what they should be, which is utility skills rather than weapons, then there's a chance they can find a niche for an ele to use them often enough to justify their existence without sacrificing the weapon skills that the class already has plenty of. 

If any encounter in the game demands that you spend a significant portion of your time using the weapon skills that a conjured weapon provides, as a class designed with 4 sets of skills to begin with, then I think that's a problem that should be addressed with the weapon skills themselves.

I've already described why I think what you're proposing here is both a higher-effort option and one that carries a much bigger risk for ArenaNet.

As for the use case: to give just one example, there was a pretty significant irony with Weaver being the Path of Fire elite spec when Path of Fire also included bounties that had random affixes... including some that make it basically impossible to keep doing damage with a melee weapon (phase-shifted during the ranged phase; signaler, particularly when the boss is highly mobile; most of the offensive modifiers and some of the legendary ones have a strong potential to punish anyone who tries to stay in melee for the whole fight). Most of these, however, don't apply for the entire fight, so you could bring sword to them, you're just likely to end up feeling useless for some periods of the fight. Giving up one utility slot for the ability to continue to fight effectively when pushed out of melee seems like a pretty good deal to me - sure, your DPS might drop, but that's better than it dropping to zero.

More broadly speaking, there are other bosses that will punish being exclusively melee (and some of the more recent strikes appear to have been explicitly designed with such goals in mind). Certain circumstances in competitive modes can also make you wish you had a ranged option to switch to, often for longer periods than a one-and-done utility skill (or even a two-and-done utility skill with a flipover) can cover for. While there are a few mechanics that can absolutely punish being exclusively ranged, especially (and infamously) projectile-based ranged.

To reiterate: reworking conjures so that they're more comfortable to use, and so that those conjured weapons that currently suffer from a lack of focus have a clear use case, is by far the easiest and least controversial way to achieve this. People tend to get a bit upset when skills and other build options they're using get reworked into something completely different, even in cases where from a rational perspective it's the right thing to do for the health of the profession as a whole (which I don't think holds for your suggestion). People tend to be much less likely to complain when something they don't use is improved to the point of being usable. Get the design fundamentals right, and then they can tweak the numbers up or down as needed from that foundation until they're in about the right spot, wherever that might be.

[Tempest.8479]

47 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Go say that to engineer. It's probably not a coincidence that the professions that have no regular weaponswap are also the ones that have the ability to bring utility skills that have the function of replacing their weapon skills. Because, from a design perspective, this brings back the ability to supplement weaknesses of their main weapon through those utility skills. Professions with weaponswap don't have this because they don't need it: they have weaponswap. But utilities on all professions are, broadly speaking, something that rounds out your build - in professions without weaponswap, that includes serving as a substitute for weaponswap if one weapon set isn't providing everything you need.

I don't think it can be understated how much of a difference it makes for an elementalist to have attunements versus an engineer only having access to 1 weapon set plus kits. The reason engineer is limited to 1 weapon is specifically because kits are baked into the core design of the class, the same way attunements are. An engineer that equips 3 kits has access to a relatively similar amount of skills as an elementalist does without conjures. Kits work better on engineer (and even then not without their own issues) because they are only being weighed against 1 weapon set, not 4. 

56 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

As for your "solution" - at this stage you're calling for a deep rework to the existing weapons AND to the conjure utility group as a whole. Not only is that far more work than fixing conjures while broadly maintaining their current functionality would be, but I expect it would also face resistance from the people who like the weapons as they are. Giving hammer some real ranged capability on its ranged attunements would probably be fairly noncontroversial, but the people who campaigned for elementalist to get a true melee weapon might not be happy about one of the current sword attunements being sacrificed to make a ranged attunement, and as much as staff air is regarded as a bit of a meme, I don't think staff fans really want air to be reworked into a melee attunement for the sake of having a means to get through projectile hate when needed where Conjure Lightning Hammer could do. Reworking conjures to fill that role would both be the easier option (they're so close to being able to do it already) and wouldn't risk the massive backlash and balance chaos that trying to rework every elementalist weapon into a mixed-range weapon might bring

For starters, my argument for reworking conjures is irrespective of a rework to weapon skills. As things stand right now, I think conjures present to much of a mechanical and balance challenge for them to continue to exist in their current form. I understand fully that it would be a lot of effort to both rework conjures and take a look at some elementalist weapons and incorporate some range into their skills, but I think you're also seeing things as all or nothing. You're talking about sacrificing attunements or skills in order to incorporate range, but I don't think it needs to be that drastic. If you tweak a few skills on a weapon to give an elementalist a few ranged/close-range options to cycle through, then there isn't as much of a drastic need to make conjures function as supplementary weapon sets. I actually don't think conjures are that close to working because them actually working creates way more of a balancing headache than what they do right now.

56 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Or, y'know, the conjured weapon skills can synergise with each other by being a set of weapon skills that synergise with each other. I think that's far more distinct than copying willbender flipover utilities.

The irony with this point as things presently stand is that at least half of the utility conjures just recycle 2-3 core elementalist skills. If each weapon can currently only bring a couple of unique skills to the table anyways, why not just have them do those things? I think it's easier to redesign the weapons to function as a pair of flip-over skills than it is to design new skills or rework functionality/tweak balance across 5 different weapon sets.

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

With all due respect, it's not all about you or what you'd do. If you're already so enamoured of skills like lightning flash, signet of fire, glyph of storms, or arcane shield, then your proposed rework is already going to be creating skills that compete with skills that are already doing that. Conjures that replace your weapon skills, however, do have some ability to have a bigger power budget, because part of their price is that you're committing to not using your weapon skills at the same time. Earth Shield, for instance, just about outperforms Arcane Shield through Fortify alone without even considering the rest of the skills, which is why it gets used in sPvP by people who have the reflexes and APM to conjure it and activate Fortify in time - but you pay for that by swapping out of your regular weapon skills. If your proposed change was made to Earth Shield, then for catalysts it's going to overlap pretty heavily with Fortified Earth, and it will probably have a significantly higher recharge

I specifically mentioned me just because I wanted to qualify my opinions as my own, but I think the general sentiment still stands. The way elementalist is designed creates too much of a loss to spend much time without access to its weapon skills. It is significantly more advantageous to take any skill that can add to or round out a build situationally without sacrificing weapon skills than any conjured weapon utility. At best they would exist to activate 2-3 skills and dip out, so facilitating lower cooldowns or a smoother switch doesn't really change anything. And the second either of those last points aren't true, then conjures become a balancing nightmare.

Frost bow was infamously nerfed for its performance in WvW, and earth shield has had to be nerfed because of how oppressive it was becoming in competitive modes. Flame Axe and Lightning Hammer occupy a precarious space as well, because the second either of these become competitive damage-wise, you allow elementalist to circumvent the longer cooldowns its weapon skills have built in to account for the amount of skills it has. The only weapon that can kind-of occupy its own design space right now is Frost Bow, and we've already seen that it can quickly become a problem.

As for potential overlap in making them more like other utilities in my own suggestions, some of that is my own oversight. I didn't take Fortified Earth into account when thinking of how Earth Shield would work, but even then I think that providing access to a counterattack that provides additional bleeding, as well as 2 boons the class normally has limited to no access to, would set it apart from other defensive utilities.

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

As for the use case: to give just one example, there was a pretty significant irony with Weaver being the Path of Fire elite spec when Path of Fire also included bounties that had random affixes... including some that make it basically impossible to keep doing damage with a melee weapon (phase-shifted during the ranged phase; signaler, particularly when the boss is highly mobile; most of the offensive modifiers and some of the legendary ones have a strong potential to punish anyone who tries to stay in melee for the whole fight). Most of these, however, don't apply for the entire fight, so you could bring sword to them, you're just likely to end up feeling useless for some periods of the fight. Giving up one utility slot for the ability to continue to fight effectively when pushed out of melee seems like a pretty good deal to me - sure, your DPS might drop, but that's better than it dropping to zero.

More broadly speaking, there are other bosses that will punish being exclusively melee (and some of the more recent strikes appear to have been explicitly designed with such goals in mind). Certain circumstances in competitive modes can also make you wish you had a ranged option to switch to, often for longer periods than a one-and-done utility skill (or even a two-and-done utility skill with a flipover) can cover for. While there are a few mechanics that can absolutely punish being exclusively ranged, especially (and infamously) projectile-based ranged.

It's interesting that you bring up Weaver and sword, because I think sword dual skills are a perfect place where 1-2 tweaks or reworks can give sword enough ranged tools for it to function with phase-shifted. Shearing Edge (water/air) and Natural Frenzy (water/earth) both already have 600 range. I think if Twin Strike (water/fire) was reworked to fire arcs of flame and water at 600 range, then all of the water dual skills would have range. That would give a sword Weaver 3 skills to cycle through, all with 10-12s cooldowns, when range becomes a problem. This would synergize well with water on sword as well because riptide is a backwards evade, so it would mean that swapping to water attunement would always provide a way to create separation and fire from range. I think relatively simple tweaks like this could provide different weapons a few tools to meet specific range challenges without sacrificing the Identity of the weapons as a whole.

Again, I would reiterate that any encounter design that punishes specific ranges or mechanics should be addressed in the 4 sets of weapon skills that an ele already gets access to, rather than giving them access to more weapon skills to compensate.

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

To reiterate: reworking conjures so that they're more comfortable to use, and so that those conjured weapons that currently suffer from a lack of focus have a clear use case, is by far the easiest and least controversial way to achieve this. People tend to get a bit upset when skills and other build options they're using get reworked into something completely different, even in cases where from a rational perspective it's the right thing to do for the health of the profession as a whole (which I don't think holds for your suggestion). People tend to be much less likely to complain when something they don't use is improved to the point of being usable. Get the design fundamentals right, and then they can tweak the numbers up or down as needed from that foundation until they're in about the right spot, wherever that might be.

My biggest problem with this argument is that I think the design fundamentals of conjured weapons honestly have no place on elementalist at the moment. There may have been a time in the game's early days where they made more sense, but the amount of mechanical powercreep over the years has created a no win situation for conjured weapons. They're either bad or they risk giving a class with a ton of weapon skills even more options that break the class in unsustainable ways. There's quite frankly no way to make Flame Axe a viable condi ranged weapon, for example, and it not become the best condi utility skill for all elementalists at all ranges. The value and sheer efficiency of skills-per-slot that even just one viable conjured weapon creates makes the entire skill type unsustainable as a whole, in my opinion.

[Jski.6180]

Conja weapons should be an full build for the ele class and the conja weapons should be reworked to be an full wepon in them self. I want to see an wepon master ele though conja weapons.

[ScottBroChill.3254]

I don't want to use a skill that takes away my 4 attunement skill bars, and I don't want those conjures being stronger than my weapon skills forcing me to use a convoluted process of getting acceptable dps. If ele had normal weapon skill mechanics with two weapons and 1 attunement or 1 weapon and two attunements I could see it as being useful, but with 20 weapon skills at all time I don't need another 5. The good skills on those conjures should be part of ele's regular weapons instead of taking up valuable design space for things we actually use. Switching to a conjure just to use a skill or 2 just feels gimmicky, and I feel the same way with engineer kits, but engineer kits I feel like get a pass because of kit mechanics of being able to go in and out of them when you need something. Making conjures into kits would make those skills feel a lot better, but I think adding that to ele would make ele feel worse to play because it's just too much. It would basically not be useable with hammer and pistol because they have too many weapon mechanics that involving switching attunement and building up orbs and bullets, weaver requires using dual skills, etc. It made sense when ele had 3 weapons to choose from but now it just feels like a placeholder that lost its usefulness with every expansion release.