New end game goals.

[Rubi Bayer.8493]

I'm catching up on this thread and wanted to take a moment to thank you all for sharing your thoughts on this topic! This was an interesting discussion to read as a player, and it's also always helpful to hear about what you enjoy/like/want more of in this context. 

[Shaman.2034]

I think that, no matter what, GW2 needs to continue prioritizing open world PvE as its main content thread. This makes it unique among MMORPGs in the market, and has clearly found success with that type of content. It's the 40-player WoW raids, but actually good. People show up to this game in droves to experience this content. There is intense demand for open world PvE to be the endgame.

SotO open world content such as Convergences, and the General Ignaxious encounter in Inner Nayos, represent a step up in difficulty and personal responsibility, without betraying the open world PvE format - namely, that there are no player-constructed barriers to entry, and it is performed in a very large (50+ players) group. Essentially, they are raid or strike bosses, but in open world format. More of that in the future would be very welcome, alongside the more traditional open world meta events, such as the most successful HoT metas.

Two legendary rings, a legendary back item, and a legendary aquatic helm, all obtainable exclusively in open world PvE, would be welcome long-term goals that could be featured as part of future expansions/content blocks.

[Mistwraithe.3106]

On 2/23/2024 at 9:55 AM, Cuks.8241 said:

What I do think is that gw2 actually has something special with wvw. One of the best large scale pvp systems I played in mmorpgs. Could compare it to Planetside but that's not really a rpg and it's an actual stand alone, relatively successful game that does only that. Well developed systems, smooth gameplay, actual squad meta that is somewhat diverse in roles. I do think it could be capitalised on with different modes, something that would have more clear winning rules and something for guilds. They don't really need to reinvent the wheel. Korean castle sieges are a proven successful concept (not the only one, there are others) and you basically already have all the systems with wvw. You just need to also utilize the existing pve maps. And it can still be completely separated from pve instances. Yeah we already have wvw but it's becoming very stale and is just missing that "for the win" part. Sandbox is fine and all but if you want competition you need the structure. I know it's a stale comment but it would put guild wars in, well, Guild Wars.

Agreed. I like a lot of different parts of GW2 and it's become by far my favourite game since I came back to it 2 years ago. I've introduced friends and family to the game to and several of them quite enjoy it but none of them have become as hooked on the game as me. I've been trying to work out why for a while. It's probably many little factors but one notable one is WvW. I tried that out mainly as a way of doing a third daily (under the old pre WV system) on days it was hard to reach dailies and it grew on me. After a few months WvW was the main driver in me joining a couple of guilds and if I look at my GW2 play time on GW2 efficiency it really took off from that point, even tho half or more of my playtime is outside of WvW. It has something compelling about it.

Anyway, I agree that there must be more things which Anet could do with WvW. I would like to see a third BL map as a minimum.

[Cuks.8241]

On 2/23/2024 at 1:54 PM, Astralporing.1957 said:

Honestly, it wasn't too welcoming (in the west at least) even among the original WoW crowd. Even earlier, with MUDs, pure PvE ones were significantly more popular than the PvP ones. Lineage, of course, was made for the asian market and that player community is a bit different in their tastes, but among western players even there PvP was mostly either avoided where possible, or actively hated. Most players just do not have the mentality for this type of play, especially nowadays when player crowd is much more casual than when the games were more niche.

No to mention OW PvP has always been more about griefing than actual challenge, which is fun mostly to those that do the griefing, but far less entertaining for everyone else.

Wow during vanilla had very big pvp population. I think it was almost an even split between pvp and pve servers and maybe even more to the pvp side. Wow ow pvp was very accessible for a mmorpg at the time because there was hardly any punishment for death. No exp loss, no item loss, just a short run to the body. 

But yeah over the years the landscape changed in favour of the pve. Partly because of the player base that became more casual. But in my opinion also because wow never had as immersive open world as in vanilla. Maybe outlands were still not there but wotlk and onwards ow was just a means for quick leveling and a gate to the endgame instances. And any distraction like a pvp encounters was just a nuisance for players trying to get through ow part as fast as possible.

While yeah ow pvp is more or less ganking, it also adds a layer in exploration. Sense of danger. I understand many hate that but many also love it. And there are many very successful games that play that card.

As for Lineage like korean mmorpgs. The ones that I played, THE end game was always guild pvp, i.e., castle wars. Also in the west. It was all about gearing your guild to have a chance in wars. 

Not really gw2 related post, just how I saw mmorpgs I played and pvp. Sure, my view is skewed because for me pvp was always one of the important end game pillars and pve often just a means to get gear for pvp.

[Astralporing.1957]

31 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Wow during vanilla had very big pvp population.

Maybe  big in absolute numbers, but not in relative ones. That big population was still a minority however.

31 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

I think it was almost an even split between pvp and pve servers and maybe even more to the pvp side.

Yes, server-wise. Notice,though, that it was a server split that Blizzard decided upon, after first imagining that PvP will be one of the major points of the game. And that even on PvP servers there were a lot of players that didn't actually like OW PvP all that much (or even completely).

31 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Wow ow pvp was very accessible for a mmorpg at the time because there was hardly any punishment for death. No exp loss, no item loss, just a short run to the body.

And yet a lot of people still didn't like it. Not because of punishment, but because they found that type of play to be distinctly unfun.

31 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

But yeah over the years the landscape changed in favour of the pve. Partly because of the player base that became more casual.

I think it was more Blizzard acknowledging that way too many players just didn't like it.

31 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

But in my opinion also because wow never had as immersive open world as in vanilla. Maybe outlands were still not there but wotlk and onwards ow was just a means for quick leveling and a gate to the endgame instances. And any distraction like a pvp encounters was just a nuisance for players trying to get through ow part as fast as possible.

Generally it's an even greater distraction to players that immerse themselves in PvE OW to a greater degree. Because those players generally want to immerse themselves in PvE. Also, generally, most players prefer to have a high degree of control over their game, and OW PvP is the exact opposite of that.

Notice, btw, that this is true even for lot of players that do like OW PvE. It's quite interesting how the average interest in this type of play suddenly fades as soon as the opposition gets better and players that were previously so interested start losing.

31 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

While yeah ow pvp is more or less ganking, it also adds a layer in exploration. Sense of danger. I understand many hate that but many also love it. And there are many very successful games that play that card.

Yes, but those games are built for that, and are meant for a very different crowd of players. There's only a very small overlap between those communities.

31 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

As for Lineage like korean mmorpgs. The ones that I played, THE end game was always guild pvp, i.e., castle wars. Also in the west. It was all about gearing your guild to have a chance in wars.

Yes, but most players (in the west, i mean) did not really participate in it at all. Also, it was a much more organized mode than OW PvP. That existed in Lineage too, and was a hotbed of griefers.

31 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Not really gw2 related post, just how I saw mmorpgs I played and pvp. Sure, my view is skewed because for me pvp was always one of the important end game pillars and pve often just a means to get gear for pvp.

Then you just have to take my word that most PvE players are not like that. There was once a mention, btw, that less than 10% of GW2 players participated in competitive modes (both SPvP and WvW). That was long, long ago, and i doubt that since then the situation improved for those modes. If anything i think it's even worse now.

Edited February 28 by Astralporing.1957