ANet, please officially alter the three pillars

[STIHL.2489]

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:ANet would be capable of re-aligning those divider lines if they saw fit to. Part of the point of this thread is to ask them to consider doing so. Make the formal divisions better reflect the community-driven divisions.

Think about this, you are arguing against a group of people that want to put you in a box and tell you what you should and should not enjoy., while knowing nothing about you or what players like you would in fact enjoy at all.

Think about this. You're attempting to get a poster who has been impervious to all attempts at reason to see reason.

Touche'

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:Are you arguing that if someone does not currently collect Legendary weapons, that it's impossible for them to be interested in any other type of legendary item?

Yes. We aren't talking about one or two people but an entire segment of the playerbase, that according to you for some reason all those thousands of players are not interested in getting legendary weapons because they dislike the skin, but will get legendary armor if it was added. That the reason they don't get legendary weapons is because they don't like them, and not because the grind to get them put them off. You are telling me that the Raiders love legendary weapons while open world farmers do not, in that case the good move for Arenanet would be to make G3 legendary weapons available only in Raids, PVP and WVW and not make Legendary Weapons available in open world PVE ever again because the open world pvers do NOT LIKE ANY OF THE LEGENDARY WEAPONS.

And yet would you consider them "basically the same encounters?" Should the Bloodstone VG and Ember Slothazor count for proccing the raid achievements and drops connected to the raid versions? That might simplify a lot of things, really. They are basically the same thing, right?

Cute. There are similar but in the Raid version you can't get carried by hiding in a huge blob (unless you pay up)There are also mechanics in the Raid version that won't translate in an open world encounters (and the opposite), but that doesn't make them different content, nor different mechanics required to beat them. The exact same builds and compositions used in Raids can be used in the Open World too.On the other hand WVW and PVP use separate balancing, separate builds, separate compositions, separate mechanics, separate gear.

[Ohoni.6057]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:Are you arguing that if someone does not currently collect Legendary weapons, that it's impossible for them to be interested in any other type of legendary item?Yes.

Then you're just wrong. Go forth in the knowledge of that fact and err no more.

that according to you for some reason all those thousands of players are not interested in getting legendary weapons because they dislike the skin, but will get legendary armor if it was added. That the reason they don't get legendary weapons is because they don't like them, and not because the grind to get them put them off.

Yup. Now keep in mind, I'm not arguing that the grind is a zero factor to them, I'm just saying, currently, they might be interested in some weapons at a "$5" level, and the "grind cost" of getting one is at a "$10" level, so it's not worth it to them. But that does not in any way preclude other items from coming along that were of a "$10+" value to them, and so they would pursue it. As I've said, I have two legendary weapons right now. I could have more than that, it's reasonably within my available time and resources to pick up few more, if I chose to apply my time and resources to that task. There are some other ones that I would enjoy having, that if they dropped into my lap I would equip them. But I would not enjoy having them enough to justify the effort in acquiring those. If the ones I do have did not exist in the game, then I might not have any by this point, and so I would fit into that pattern of "doesn't have a Legendary therefore must never want one" hole that you seem to believe is a thing.

You genuinely don't seem to grasp the basic concept that a player might desire an object for reasons other than status, that there might exist two different objects of equivalent status, and for a player to genuinely want one, and genuinely not care that much about the other. I admit that I don't really understand how it's possible for you to be confused by this idea.

You are telling me that the Raiders love legendary weapons while open world farmers do not, in that case the good move for Arenanet would be to make G3 legendary weapons available only in Raids, PVP and WVW and not make Legendary Weapons available in open world PVE ever again because the open world pvers do NOT LIKE ANY OF THE LEGENDARY WEAPONS.

I don't think there's any evidence to correlate raiders loving legendary weapons and open-worlders not. I imagine that many open-worlders do have Legendaries, and many raiders do not. There is no data points that show how many of each group own Legendary weapons.

Cute. There are similar but in the Raid version you can't get carried by hiding in a huge blob (unless you pay up)

So you might argue that they are two very different gameplay experiences then, and that a player could reasonably enjoy the open world version, but not enjoy the raid version?

There are also mechanics in the Raid version that won't translate in an open world encounters (and the opposite), but that doesn't make them different content, nor different mechanics required to beat them.

Doesn't it mean exactly that? Have you actually tried both versions? They're about as similar as hot chocolate and espresso.

The exact same builds and compositions used in Raids can be used in the Open World too.

And in WvW and PvP, although they aren't necessarily ideal when you switch modes. It's fairly safe to say that builds that work in open world do not necessarily translate to raiding, at least not if we're considering the player as carrying his own weight.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Ohoni.6057 said:Then you're just wrong. Go forth in the knowledge of that fact and err no more.

But I'm not wrong. You are saying that open world players don't like the Legendary Weapons because of their skin, but they will desire the Legendary Armor because of it's skin,. That on it's own means Arenanet should never bother to develop more Legendary Weapons for the open world players because they do not like them apparently.The simple fact is, those who don't go for Legendary Weapons won't go for Legendary Armor either, unless for some reason you want the Armors to be easy and not on the same level of grind as the Weapons. Is that it? Let's add easy mode grind-free Legendary Armor for the masses?

I don't think there's any evidence to correlate raiders loving legendary weapons and open-worlders not. I imagine that many open-worlders do have Legendaries, and many raiders do not. There is no data points that show how many of each group own Legendary weapons.

Actually there is, if you visit the Aerodrome you will find lots of Legendary Weapons. But more seriously, there is also the issue of commitment. Like it or not crafting a Legendary requires commitment and effort, which is more likely to be found in a player that is committed to the challenging parts of the game. It comes with the territory. Now of course G1 weapons can be bought with cash which can bypass this.

And in WvW and PvP, although they aren't necessarily ideal when you switch modes. It's fairly safe to say that builds that work in open world do not necessarily translate to raiding, at least not if we're considering the player as carrying his own weight.

All builds work in the open world, but Raid builds work in the open world too. I'd say that even in the open world, lots of players are using Raid builds which means something. The Raid builds are also more effective in the Open World.For WVW and PVP due to how items work, you can't keep the same build when you swap modes, in most cases it's impossible.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You are saying that open world players don't like the Legendary Weapons because of their skin, but they will desire the Legendary Armor because of it's skin,

Yes, because that's how personal preferences work. Some people like peanut butter and jelly, some like peanut butter and chocolate, some like peanut butter and pickles. And some are allergic to peanuts.

That on it's own means Arenanet should never bother to develop more Legendary Weapons for the open world players because they do not like them apparently.

No. It doesn't at all mean that.

I'm not even sure how someone could possibly take that lesson from that situation, but it really goes to show how horribly misleading "data" can be when it's poorly interpreted by a human.

The simple fact is, those who don't go for Legendary Weapons won't go for Legendary Armor either, unless for some reason you want the Armors to be easy and not on the same level of grind as the Weapons. Is that it? Let's add easy mode grind-free Legendary Armor for the masses?

I wouldn't mind that, but I don't expect it, or require it. It is not a necessary element of the point I was making.

Actually there is, if you visit the Aerodrome you will find lots of Legendary Weapons.

So? If you go to Vabbi you'll find lots of Legendary weapons. Again, likely not every raider has one, and likely many non-raiders have several, your anecdotes of "seeing raiders with Legendaries" does not mean that all Raiders have them, nor does it in any way indicate that few to no open-worlders do.

Like it or not crafting a Legendary requires commitment and effort,

Like it or not, not really. As I noted, I knocked out the requirements to the ones I had over about a week or so each. A lot of that was in waiting for an ingredient or two to bite on the TP.

which is more likely to be found in a player that is committed to the challenging parts of the game.

Again, not at all necessarily. They are completely different flavors of commitment. A player who enjoys Cuphead can be said to be someone who is "committed to challenge," and yet they might only spend a few hours over a few days playing the game, and then put it away. They lack a "commitment to time." An open world player might not enjoy challenge at all, might avoid high challenge encounters, and yet might be considerably more commited to the game as a whole than any raider, and willing to spend more hours playing the game, grinding away at achievable objectives, while still avoiding high challenge objectives. They have commitment and effort, they do not enjoy challenge.

All builds work in the open world, but Raid builds work in the open world too. I'd say that even in the open world, lots of players are using Raid builds which means something. The Raid builds are also more effective in the Open World.

Sometimes, but not always, but again, the inverse is not always the case.

For WVW and PVP due to how items work, you can't keep the same build when you swap modes, in most cases it's impossible.

Of course you can. Many just choose not to. PvP is a lot more flexible since you can just state swap with amulets. That's a flexibility that I hope they eventually migrate to PvE.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Ohoni.6057 said:Yes, because that's how personal preferences work. Some people like peanut butter and jelly, some like peanut butter and chocolate, some like peanut butter and pickles. And some are allergic to peanuts.

That would work with a small sample yes. We are talking about an entire segment of the playerbase here that apparently don't like Legendary Weapons but will like Legendary Armor.

I think your problem here is that you think people like you are some kind of a majority in the game. Players that play only in the Open World exclusively but find Legendary Weapon crafting easy. Players that call themselves casual but find enough time to commit in making Legendary Weapons.Good luck convincing anyone that the Ohoni-like players are enough for a change to be important :)

[Ohoni.6057]

@"maddoctor.2738" said:That would work with a small sample yes. We are talking about an entire segment of the playerbase here that apparently don't like Legendary Weapons but will like Legendary Armor.

"An entire segment" is just a large number of small samples. Again, not ALL open-worlders don't have Legendary weapons, and not ALL raiders do. I'm not arguing that ALL open-worlders will go after legendaries even if they are made more available to them. I'm just saying that some will, I believe enough to justify the effort in putting them in, and I would be willing to wager that it would be more total players than currently own Legendary Armor, so if that turned out to be true, and if making Legendary armor was worth doing in the first place, that would more than justify the concept of expanding access to it.

I think your problem here is that you think people like you are some kind of a majority in the game. Players that play only in the Open World exclusively but find Legendary Weapon crafting easy. Players that call themselves casual but find enough time to commit in making Legendary Weapons.

Yes, and your problem here is that you think that isn't the case.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:I'm just saying that some will, I believe enough to justify the effort in putting them in

This is the part that I said good luck to you about. :)And again, good luck on that.

On an another note, and to get away of that (we can only go "yes they are", "no they aren't" there, so it's pointless, they added new Stellar and Astral skins with Daybreak that are rather nice. Unfortunately I can't see them on the Raid vendor for Magnetite Shards, I can't find them on the PVP or WVW vendor either.I also can't seem to find G1/G2 Legendary Weapon precursors sold for Legendary Inscriptions on the Raid trader either. They aren't sold in WVW or PVP vendors either.When a similar subject came up some time ago, I was trying to find how to unlock the Griffon inside Raids, couldn't find a solution to that problem.I was trying to unlock Gliding in WVW, no luck there either.

I know what you are going to say here "If you want these items added in other types of content, I will support it!"Which brings us to the big question: is it worth all the extra effort of adding every reward, on every mode of content?Unlock the Griffon with Ascended Shards of Glory!Buy Dawn with Legendary Insights!Get mastery points with Badges of Honor!How about putting Black Lion weapon skins in content too? Like with low chance on the Palawadan chests?Or add mount skins inside Tequatl's hoard?

This isn't only about Legendary Armor. Let's say that they add Envoy Armor in general PVE. What happens next? What happens if there are no unique rewards anywhere in the game? How much slower will adding any kind of reward be, if they had to add paths for getting it on all modes of play? Adding any type of reward in the game would require an insane amount of time to balance it for all modes, making rewards so slow to come out that it takes years.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"maddoctor.2738" said:On an another note, and to get away of that (we can only go "yes they are", "no they aren't" there, so it's pointless, they added new Stellar and Astral skins with Daybreak that are rather nice. Unfortunately I can't see them on the Raid vendor for Magnetite Shards, I can't find them on the PVP or WVW vendor either.I also can't seem to find G1/G2 Legendary Weapon precursors sold for Legendary Inscriptions on the Raid trader either. They aren't sold in WVW or PVP vendors either.When a similar subject came up some time ago, I was trying to find how to unlock the Griffon inside Raids, couldn't find a solution to that problem.I was trying to unlock Gliding in WVW, no luck there either.

Yeah, that's a bummer, and should probably be part of a comprehensive gearing shift in the game.

Never engage me in "whataboutism" when it comes to loot availability, because my answer will always be the same, "yes, and. . ."

Now, in some "limited" cases, I think it's fine for some things to be locked behind a specific mode, so long as the conditions for unlocking it are reasonably shallow, something that any player can achieve in a few hours work, not dozens, not locked behind a skillcap. Anything that takes significant investments of time, or significant amounts of skill should have alternative paths.

I will make a specific statement about Griffons though, in that they are unusable in any form in either PvP or WvW, so there's no particular reason why they would need to be unlocked in those modes. And traits that are 100% specific to a mode (for example the raid mastery track) can remain specific to that mode, but anything that would have value outside that mode (like a skin) should not be. If they did have a method, however, I wouldn't be opposed to that.

Which brings us to the big question: is it worth all the extra effort of adding every reward, on every mode of content?

Yes. I don't think it's something that they should address piecemeal for each item in each mode, I think it's something they should give a lot of thought into developing a comprehensive system that makes it relatively easy to add these things, a balanced structure so that they know when they add X with Y unlocking condition to content type Z, that means it would be balanced to also add it to content type C with unlocking type B, without having to reinvent the wheel each time.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Ohoni.6057 said:Yes. I don't think it's something that they should address piecemeal for each item in each mode, I think it's something they should give a lot of thought into developing a comprehensive system that makes it relatively easy to add these things, a balanced structure so that they know when they add X with Y unlocking condition to content type Z, that means it would be balanced to also add it to content type C with unlocking type B, without having to reinvent the wheel each time.

Guild Wars 1 based all the rewards on gold, since everything could be sold, and then players decided the prices. That had the sad unfortunate effect of making it also way too grind-y. To keep the prices high, the drop chances had to be really low. It also meant that in order to get the expensive items you had to farm/grind, but as more people did the same prices went up, meaning you needed even more farming to keep up. That's a tale about a system that gave everything through all kinds of content,

Binding everything on gold is the easy way. You are saying they won't have to reinvent the wheel, yet there are so many currencies in the game that is hard to keep up. The system then will have to be updated for any new currencies later on. And what about modes of content that are added later? Raids added their own unique reward system, if you want to call Raids a different mode, you'll have to give all the rewards in Raids too, and in all other future content that similar to Raids doesn't exist. Most probably, an expansion. Path of Fire added loads of new rewards to the game, will they be given to Heart of Thorns too? Will the Heart of Thorns rewards need to retroactively added to Path of Fire content too?

This puts a huge burden on content creation especially in a game with so many currencies, I don't see that as a feasible choice.

[Ohoni.6057]

@maddoctor.2738 said:Guild Wars 1 based all the rewards on gold, since everything could be sold, and then players decided the prices. That had the sad unfortunate effect of making it also way too grind-y. To keep the prices high, the drop chances had to be really low. It also meant that in order to get the expensive items you had to farm/grind, but as more people did the same prices went up, meaning you needed even more farming to keep up. That's a tale about a system that gave everything through all kinds of content,

The problem with the system as you described it is that they took a free market approach, in which players sold to other players based on relative perceived value. I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. I'm suggesting that the devs should provide fair pricing, as they already do with thousands of items from hundreds of ingame vendors. They would determine how much grind they felt was appropriate, and RNG should not factor into it.

This should NOT be gold, however, since there is already a gold economy and it is kittened. It would need to be something they can start fresh with, and something that cannot be exchanged with other players. It would need to be an account bound currency tradable only for account bound items, potentially items that cannot be stripped for any parts that could be resold.

And what about modes of content that are added later? Raids added their own unique reward system, if you want to call Raids a different mode, you'll have to give all the rewards in Raids too, and in all other future content that similar to Raids doesn't exist.

Balancing the rewards that come with a new mode is a part of adding a new mode. If the system they design is balanced, then adding a new mode would be no more work than adding raids to HoT was. They had to balance the raid rewards against existing content, they would have to balance the new mode's rewards against existing content, but since the interlinked economy would be balanced within itself, balancing the new content against any one other element would automatically bring it into balance with all other elements.

Path of Fire added loads of new rewards to the game, will they be given to Heart of Thorns too? Will the Heart of Thorns rewards need to retroactively added to Path of Fire content too?

In a way, yes, and without breaking either. Currencies earned in HoT content could be converted (at a lossy rate) to PoF currency, and vice-versa. You would need to own the expansion to cash in that currency, so it would still require that you pay for the expansion in question, but if you really hated HoT content and wanted to earn HoT rewards by farming the desert, you could do that, so long as you owned both. They could perhaps time gate this sort of conversion so that for the first six months or so of an expansion you could not convert currency into it, to give better value to farming that content for the new items, rather than just converting stored currency to buy it all up.

And that assumes a currency-exchange vendor, which is my preference, but the other way to do it would be PvE Reward tracks, which would be no different from existing WvW and PvP tracks, aside from that they would be progressed by running PvE content wherever you happened to be. The available rewards from these tracks could be expanded.

[STIHL.2489]

@Ohoni.6057 said:Are you arguing that if someone does not currently collect Legendary weapons, that it's impossible for them to be interested in any other type of legendary item?@maddoctor.2738 said:Yes.@Ohoni.6057 said:Then you're just wrong. Go forth in the knowledge of that fact and err no more.@maddoctor.2738 said:But I'm not wrong.

What poof do you have of this?

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:This should NOT be gold, however, since there is already a gold economy and it is kittened. It would need to be something they can start fresh with, and something that cannot be exchanged with other players. It would need to be an account bound currency tradable only for account bound items, potentially items that cannot be stripped for any parts that could be resold.

I gave that example because it's kind of the only example I know of a game that follows the principle of "all rewards through all types of content". I've read about other mmorpgs with a similar approach, but they all used the free market. It's curious that no mmorpg to my knowledge provided all the rewards from all types of content, without using the open market. Prompting the question if such a thing is even doable in an actual game setting.

[Ohoni.6057]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Ohoni.6057" said:This should NOT be gold, however, since there is already a gold economy and it is kittened. It would need to be something they can start fresh with, and something that cannot be exchanged with other players. It would need to be an account bound currency tradable only for account bound items, potentially items that cannot be stripped for any parts that could be resold.

I gave that example because it's kind of the only example I know of a game that follows the principle of "all rewards through all types of content". I've read about other mmorpgs with a similar approach, but they all used the free market. It's curious that no mmorpg to my knowledge provided all the rewards from all types of content, without using the open market. Prompting the question if such a thing is even doable in an actual game setting.

Why so?

[maddoctor.2738]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:This should NOT be gold, however, since there is already a gold economy and it is kittened. It would need to be something they can start fresh with, and something that cannot be exchanged with other players. It would need to be an account bound currency tradable only for account bound items, potentially items that cannot be stripped for any parts that could be resold.

I gave that example because it's kind of the only example I know of a game that follows the principle of "all rewards through all types of content". I've read about other mmorpgs with a similar approach, but they all used the free market. It's curious that no mmorpg to my knowledge provided all the rewards from all types of content, without using the open market. Prompting the question if such a thing is even doable in an actual game setting.

Why so?

Why nobody else has ever done it? Just balancing all the rewards among themselves is hard enough and you want to make them "balanced" across game modes. That's more than an impossibility.

[STIHL.2489]

blah... People said the same thing about how it would be impossible for every one to get equal loot from the same box, when EQ launched.

[Ohoni.6057]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:This should NOT be gold, however, since there is already a gold economy and it is kittened. It would need to be something they can start fresh with, and something that cannot be exchanged with other players. It would need to be an account bound currency tradable only for account bound items, potentially items that cannot be stripped for any parts that could be resold.

I gave that example because it's kind of the only example I know of a game that follows the principle of "all rewards through all types of content". I've read about other mmorpgs with a similar approach, but they all used the free market. It's curious that no mmorpg to my knowledge provided all the rewards from all types of content, without using the open market. Prompting the question if such a thing is even doable in an actual game setting.

Why so?

Why nobody else has ever done it?

No, "why so" "Prompting the question if such a thing is even doable in an actual game setting."

That seems like a silly question to ask, given that the answer should be common sense.

It would be "yes," if that was still somehow confusing.

Just balancing all the rewards among themselves is hard enough and you want to make them "balanced" across game modes. That's more than an impossibility.

And yet this game already does so, with numerous rewards that can be found in multiple places. This would just be expanding the impacted item list.