ANet, please officially alter the three pillars

[yann.1946]

I personally agree that that distinction can be made. But if we would classify open world pve differently and want to use this in the Legendary armour discussion, remember that open world pve has the most legendary items of all the game modes. (maybe one could argue that WvW has more with the gift of battle)

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

@"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:Perhaps, it might serve your purpose better to just offer a suggestion as to which other PvE content should be considered difficult enough to warrant Legendary Armor as a reward.

Good luck.Why does it have to be "difficult" at all? Crafting legendary weapons isn't. Grindy and expensive, yes, but not difficult. What makes armor so special that it couldn't work the same way?

[maddoctor.2738]

@Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

@"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:Perhaps, it might serve your purpose better to just offer a suggestion as to which

other

PvE content should be considered difficult enough to warrant Legendary Armor as a reward.

Good luck.Why does it have to be "difficult" at all? Crafting legendary weapons isn't. Grindy and expensive, yes, but not difficult. What makes armor so special that it couldn't work the same way?

Legendary Armor is also grindy and expensive.

[Sarrs.4831]

@Ohoni.6057 said:If you're just talking maps, then sure, but the PoF elite specs seem almost entirely based around sPvP comps, or occasionally WvW comps, and many of the subsequence balance changes were specifically to address PvP concerns. There's more to game design and content than just maps.

That's not really true either. Many of the new additions to classes through elite specs appear specifically designed to offer PvE roles to classes that previously didn't have them. Renegade offers DPS options to classes which previously didn't have them, and Holosmith and Mirage offer new DPS modes of play. Scourge, Firebrand, Renegade and Deadeye all provide new support options for existing classes. I'm probably missing some for both categories; Soulbeast and Weaver provide such different playstyles that it's not even fair to just look at what they give you role-wise.

The only elite specs which don't necessarily do much in PvE are the Spellbreaker and the Scrapper... But even then, that's a high-level analysis in that these classes are not useful for raids and fractals. They are still quite servicable for open world PvE content; even quite good, because you'll always have some goon who gets downed and you can throw a Gyro at them, and a Spellbreaker can reliably fire their interrupt-for-buff effects against PvE no-bar foes.

[Tails.9372]

@Miellyn.6847 said:Because WvW has a lot more PvE Elements than sPvP and you have equipment templates in sPvP and can't use food while you use your normal equipment in WvW and can use food. The balancing is completly different. Thats why you divide PvP in sPvP and WvW.The basic rules in open world maps and instanced PvE are exactly the same.JPs restrict the use of certain skills and shift the focus of the gameplay in another direction, adventures and some other aspects of PvE do the same thing in an even more drastic way. How you came to the conclusion that stuff like the Super Adventure Box, the griffon based adventures and fighting Amala are basically "exactly the same" is beyond me.

[STIHL.2489]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:The only point of this thread is 'How does Ohoni get Envoy skins without raiding'. This thread is pointless. It only exists because your easy mode raiding crusade failed.

No, there's a different thread for that.

No, both threads have the same goal. Legendary armor in open world. You just want to redefine those 'pillars' to strenghten your argument that there is no legendary armor in PvE. Which is the case, just not in open world.

Actually, it would help all game modes be respected with their own equal rewards, but for that to happen, they all first need to be acknowledged.

Which they already are as each mode offers a way to get legendary armor and backpack. Weapons have always crossed multiple modes.

Unless you’re referring to splitting up the three modes further in which case I should be able to earn legendary armor by doing activities and adventures.

No.. Failure to respect the vary massive difference between Team Based PvE and Open world PvE, and living in an faulty ideal of ALL PvE is the same, is the core of the problem. Once that is addressed, then we can talk about loot, but as long as people deny this very real separation, progress will not happen and it will just hurt Anet and every other MMO's future development.

Well if you feel that they should be split further then I feel they should be split further than that.

Or Anet can add them solely to adventures only and call that adding them to “open world” since that’s where most of them are.

Ok lets use your logic, so.. all PVE is the same to you, as such, since you know, it was difficult and challenging, I should get legendary armor from doing the Mad King's jump puzzle, and ascended weapons from doing open world champions, as I am sure it's harder for me to solo them then it is for you and 9 static group friends to do a raid.

IF all PvE is the same to you, then it should make no difference, it's all the same, and since challenge is retaliative, ascended from Jump puzzles, Legendary weapons from doing hearts or map completion.. why not. .PvE is PvE.. all the same , .. right?

Actually, that logic is yours and Ohoni’s, not mine. PvE can be broken up as many ways that you want depending on the game.

You both wanted open world so I have the suggestion to have them tied solely to adventures. With a few exceptions, adventures are all open world.

All adventures are open world, but not all Open world is adventures, what you are proposing is a mentally defunct as saying that is should be only tied to Jumping puzzles.

But. well, as far as my opponents go, that kind of logic is about par for the course

I was imply pointing out that not all PvE is the same, and clinging to an idea that is , is bad for the games development. But by all means, throw out nonsense at this point, if that is all you have.

All open world is PvE, but not all PvE is open world. If my statement in the previous post was mentally defunct, then so is the one in the previous sentence.

If making legendary armor only available in one segment of open world causes issues then clearly people have personal preferences amongst them just as they do over raids vs open world. Having legendary armor confined to only adventures in open world is inherently no different than having legendary armor confined to only raids in PvE.

What this is coming down to is someone has a personal preference on how they’d like to earn legendary armor.

If you are going to follow the logic that all PvE is PvE, the Jormag should reward better then a raid, as it only takes 10 people to do a raid, and 30 to do Jormag.

Um... this is getting ridiculous now. PvE is PvE just like water is water. Jormag can be done with five players as you're forgetting about scaling.

This I gotta see. No really.. I have got to see 5 people do Jormag. I don't believe it is possible. In fact I call shenanigans,, get your raid group together and do it, and show me a 5 Person Jormag.

I would also love to see a 5 people do Triple trouble, or Vine Wreath.

If all PvE is PvE, like water is water, something like Teq is impossible with only 10 people, ergo Teq should have better rewards then Raids, because its harder.

If you disagree with this, then the fault is in your logic to try and treat all PvE the same.

I suggest you check what PvE means. There are plenty of sources online which will enlighten you.

Here’s a freebie.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/player_versus_environment

All of your examples in attempts to prove me wrong fall under PvE.

LOL, prove you wrong,, No.. I am just proving that by your logic that all PvE is the same like all water is the same, that raids don't deserve the rewards they give, because there is much harder other PvE content, that gives far less.

It's YOUR logic that says Raid rewards are too high, and need to be toned down, or World Bosses need to get seriously buffed, given ho much harder they are then raids.

But I stand by what I first said:

@STIHL.2489 said:You have 4 game modes at this point.

Team Based PvE (Fractals, Dungeons, Raids)Open World PvE (PS, LW, Open Maps)Team Based PvP (sPvP)Open World PvP (WvW)

and it seems that the developers know this, because they give different rewards to the different kinds of PvE I listed.. it's just a matter of them fully embracing what they already know.

You can cling to faulty beliefs and passe definitions, but it make you no less wrong. In fact the very astute difference between Instance based PvE and Open World PvE have been known since EverQuest. So to say all PvE is the same.. really puts you out of the loop, even by the most layman of terms and game design.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:The only point of this thread is 'How does Ohoni get Envoy skins without raiding'. This thread is pointless. It only exists because your easy mode raiding crusade failed.

No, there's a different thread for that.

No, both threads have the same goal. Legendary armor in open world. You just want to redefine those 'pillars' to strenghten your argument that there is no legendary armor in PvE. Which is the case, just not in open world.

Actually, it would help all game modes be respected with their own equal rewards, but for that to happen, they all first need to be acknowledged.

Which they already are as each mode offers a way to get legendary armor and backpack. Weapons have always crossed multiple modes.

Unless you’re referring to splitting up the three modes further in which case I should be able to earn legendary armor by doing activities and adventures.

No.. Failure to respect the vary massive difference between Team Based PvE and Open world PvE, and living in an faulty ideal of ALL PvE is the same, is the core of the problem. Once that is addressed, then we can talk about loot, but as long as people deny this very real separation, progress will not happen and it will just hurt Anet and every other MMO's future development.

Well if you feel that they should be split further then I feel they should be split further than that.

Or Anet can add them solely to adventures only and call that adding them to “open world” since that’s where most of them are.

Ok lets use your logic, so.. all PVE is the same to you, as such, since you know, it was difficult and challenging, I should get legendary armor from doing the Mad King's jump puzzle, and ascended weapons from doing open world champions, as I am sure it's harder for me to solo them then it is for you and 9 static group friends to do a raid.

IF all PvE is the same to you, then it should make no difference, it's all the same, and since challenge is retaliative, ascended from Jump puzzles, Legendary weapons from doing hearts or map completion.. why not. .PvE is PvE.. all the same , .. right?

Actually, that logic is yours and Ohoni’s, not mine. PvE can be broken up as many ways that you want depending on the game.

You both wanted open world so I have the suggestion to have them tied solely to adventures. With a few exceptions, adventures are all open world.

All adventures are open world, but not all Open world is adventures, what you are proposing is a mentally defunct as saying that is should be only tied to Jumping puzzles.

But. well, as far as my opponents go, that kind of logic is about par for the course

I was imply pointing out that not all PvE is the same, and clinging to an idea that is , is bad for the games development. But by all means, throw out nonsense at this point, if that is all you have.

All open world is PvE, but not all PvE is open world. If my statement in the previous post was mentally defunct, then so is the one in the previous sentence.

If making legendary armor only available in one segment of open world causes issues then clearly people have personal preferences amongst them just as they do over raids vs open world. Having legendary armor confined to only adventures in open world is inherently no different than having legendary armor confined to only raids in PvE.

What this is coming down to is someone has a personal preference on how they’d like to earn legendary armor.

If you are going to follow the logic that all PvE is PvE, the Jormag should reward better then a raid, as it only takes 10 people to do a raid, and 30 to do Jormag.

Um... this is getting ridiculous now. PvE is PvE just like water is water. Jormag can be done with five players as you're forgetting about scaling.

This I gotta see. No really.. I have got to see 5 people do Jormag. I don't believe it is possible. In fact I call shenanigans,, get your raid group together and do it, and show me a 5 Person Jormag.

I would also love to see a 5 people do Triple trouble, or Vine Wreath.

If all PvE is PvE, like water is water, something like Teq is impossible with only 10 people, ergo Teq should have better rewards then Raids, because its harder.

If you disagree with this, then the fault is in your logic to try and treat all PvE the same.

I suggest you check what PvE means. There are plenty of sources online which will enlighten you.

Here’s a freebie.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/player_versus_environment

All of your examples in attempts to prove me wrong fall under PvE.

LOL, prove you wrong,, No.. I am just proving that by your logic that all PvE is the same like all water is the same, that raids don't deserve the rewards they give, because there is much harder other PvE content, that gives far less.

It's YOUR logic that says Raid rewards are too high, and need to be toned down, or World Bosses need to get seriously buffed, given ho much harder they are then raids.

But I stand by what I first said:

@STIHL.2489 said:You have 4 game modes at this point.

Team Based PvE (Fractals, Dungeons, Raids)Open World PvE (PS, LW, Open Maps)Team Based PvP (sPvP)Open World PvP (WvW)

and it seems that the developers know this, because they give different rewards to the different kinds of PvE I listed.. it's just a matter of them fully embracing what they already know.

You can cling to faulty beliefs and passe definitions, but it make you no less wrong. In fact the very astute difference between Instance based PvE and Open World PvE have been known since EverQuest. So to say all PvE is the same.. really puts you out of the loop, even by the most layman of terms and game design.

I never said all PvE was the same so try again.

What I was pointing at with your previous post was that you were referring to PvE and then saying it was not PvE. It’s the same logic the OP and others have used when stating dungeons, fractals, raids, and so are are not PvE. All of those are PvE.

I also disagree that there is much harder PvE content than raids. Nothing in the open world comes close. Some T4 fractals may be the closest amongst the other PvE content. Keep in mind that Teq and TTT are not difficult. Those two are more about having the numbers and doing the basic mechanics. They didn’t rely on a moderate to high degree of personal skill for each player.

I don’t know where you get that I was suggesting that raid rewards are too high. Perhaps there’s a disconnect between what is written and when it gets interpreted. Raids are currently the most challenging PvE content in the game and having the existing rewards is very much applicable. That includes legendary armor.

Adventures, activities, map/world completion, jumping puzzles, dungeons, raids, fractals, events, killing things, and so on all have different rewards. Those go beyond the arbitrary modes you came up with.

What this comes down to is that you have a preference for specific types of content within the game and you’d prefer Anet to make whatever reward available by playing that content. Rewards in this case being legendary armor.

[STIHL.2489]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:I never said all PvE was the same so try again.

You sure about that ?

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Um... this is getting ridiculous now. PvE is PvE just like water is water.

That sure looks like you said All PvE is the same.

LOL, and I'll agree that Raids are the hardest content in the game when you can do Teq with 10 people or less. Till then.. Nahhh.. Raids are just 10 person PvE content.. nothing special about that.. at least not to anyone that thinks all PvE is the same..

[TexZero.7910]

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Nobody says otherwise. However, if we were splitting the modes only according to that, we would have had

two

modes, not three. PvE and PvP. Both WvW and sPvP are all PvP, and any attempt to say otherwise is silly. And yet they constitute two different modes not one.

I like how the common defense is no one says otherwise and yet....

The OP is saying just that when and where it suits them.

WvW isn't just PvP. Last i checked those keeps/towers/scouts are all AI and it requires their deaths to take control of the structures.At its core WvW is a watered down RvR gameplay experience. I know another acronym for a term you probably don't know about but even it the most basic RvR's there's always been elements of PvE.

Just a comment, doesn’t the sPvP map

Battle of Champion’s Dusk

have PvE elements also since they can break down gates and kill the Lord to win? Also,

Raid on the Capricorn

had PvE elements when it was in the sPvP maps.

Already responded to this in the 2nd or 3rd (i've honestly stopped counting now) topic about this same thing....

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:sPvP also has player verses environment elements to it on most maps. WvW:sPvP as OpenPvE:Raiding.

Not even close.

sPvP's mechanics are secondary and more often than not are nothing more than Snowball or Win-Harder mechanics meant to drive down the match length times.

WvW PvE mechanics are integral to how the mode functions. Without it you can never cap and thus will perpetually lose as there's no way you're winning a match solely of PPK.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:I never said all PvE was the same so try again.

You sure about that ?

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Um... this is getting ridiculous now. PvE is PvE just like water is water.

That sure looks like you said

All PvE is the same

.

LOL, and I'll agree that Raids are the hardest content in the game when you can do Teq with 10 people or less. Till then.. Nahhh.. Raids are just 10 person PvE content.. nothing special about that..

at least not to anyone that thinks all PvE is the same

..

All of those activities are PvE. It’s no different than me saying all soda is soda. Pepsi, Coke, Sprite are all arguably different yet they’re still soda.

Numbers don’t dictate something being hard. You judge content in the way it was designed. So you group 5-man content as having five players, raids as having 10, Teq/TTT as having whatever the established minimum was, and other world bosses being around 5ish players.

[Trise.2865]

Why though? This serves no practical purpose. All it does is either encourage or enrage self-proclaimed pundits who pleasure themselves by forcing their opinions on people and, in turn, continue to inflict themselves on the populace based on their "reactions" to either or any statement.

In short, "say something so I can yell at you!"

Stay frosty, ANet. Don't feed the trolls.

[STIHL.2489]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:I never said all PvE was the same so try again.

You sure about that ?

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Um... this is getting ridiculous now. PvE is PvE just like water is water.

That sure looks like you said

All PvE is the same

.

LOL, and I'll agree that Raids are the hardest content in the game when you can do Teq with 10 people or less. Till then.. Nahhh.. Raids are just 10 person PvE content.. nothing special about that..

at least not to anyone that thinks all PvE is the same

..

All of those activities are PvE. It’s no different than me saying all soda is soda. Pepsi, Coke, Sprite are all arguably different yet they’re still soda.

So again.. You say all PvE is the same. Soda is Soda.. no matter the brand or flavor.. it's all soda and should be treated the same.

Numbers don’t dictate something being hard. You judge content in the way it was designed. So you group 5-man content as having five players, raids as having 10, Teq/TTT as having whatever the established minimum was, and other world bosses being around 5ish players.

By this logic I could claim Living Story should reward better loot then raids, because doing that solo is much harder then having other people there to help me, and since all PvE is just PvE, there is nothing intrinsically special about raids that should set them apart to get any kind of special loot, as such, yes.. Jumping Puzzles, Adventures, World Bosses, Living Story, all of them should reward the same.

Look.. you're not going to win this. because your logic is faulty. You are just floundering around trying to justify why your flavor is the best, while at the same time saying all soda is soda,

At this point, You can either be wrong about the division of PvE, or be wrong that Raids deserve some kind of special loot. Your choice.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:As I said before, it wasn’t to spite but to make a point. Asking the question again isn’t going to give you a different answer.

What would that point be, beyond suggesting an alternative that nobody asked for and that would satisfy no one, as a response to a request for actual, actionable change?

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:No, that is not what he means. WvW is largely a contest for territory. The winning server earns more points over the match by a combination of things. One way is by controlling points, which must be captured by defeating the Tower. Keep or Castle Lords, Camp Supervisors and Guards at Sentry posts. Thus, one can contribute to one's server's victory by engaging in PvE. This aspect of WvW has had some criticism, in fact, by some of the WvW community.

So, you could cause the players on your side, to defeat the players on the other side, by scoring more points than they do? Almost, a player. . . "opposing" player situation? What could you call that? PoP?

@Sarrs.4831 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:If you're just talking maps, then sure, but the PoF elite specs seem almost entirely based around sPvP comps, or occasionally WvW comps, and many of the subsequence balance changes were specifically to address PvP concerns. There's more to game design and content than just maps.

That's not really true either. Many of the new additions to classes through elite specs appear specifically designed to offer PvE roles to classes that previously didn't have them. Renegade offers DPS options to classes which previously didn't have them, and Holosmith and Mirage offer new DPS modes of play. Scourge, Firebrand, Renegade and Deadeye all provide new support options for existing classes. I'm probably missing some for both categories; Soulbeast and Weaver provide such different playstyles that it's not even fair to just look at what they give you role-wise.

The only elite specs which don't necessarily do much in PvE are the Spellbreaker and the Scrapper... But even then, that's a high-level analysis in that these classes are not useful for raids and fractals. They are still quite servicable for open world PvE content; even quite good, because you'll always have some goon who gets downed and you can throw a Gyro at them, and a Spellbreaker can reliably fire their interrupt-for-buff effects against PvE no-bar foes.

I still believe that the PoF specs were designed either to primarily have a PvP function, OR were limited by an interest in not having them be OP in PvP, with those limits behind passed to PvE even where they would not be necessary there. You can argue that they still have some value in PvE, and that may be true, but I doubt that many of them would exist in remotely their current form if PvP was not even a factor in the design process.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:No, that is not what he means. WvW is largely a contest for territory. The winning server earns more points over the match by a combination of things. One way is by controlling points, which must be captured by defeating the Tower. Keep or Castle Lords, Camp Supervisors and Guards at Sentry posts. Thus, one can contribute to one's server's victory by engaging in PvE. This aspect of WvW has had some criticism, in fact, by some of the WvW community.

So, you could cause the players on your side, to defeat the players on the other side, by scoring more points than they do? Almost, a player. . .

"opposing"

player situation? What could you call that? PoP?

I'd call it RvR.

[Ohoni.6057]

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:No, that is not what he means. WvW is largely a contest for territory. The winning server earns more points over the match by a combination of things. One way is by controlling points, which must be captured by defeating the Tower. Keep or Castle Lords, Camp Supervisors and Guards at Sentry posts. Thus, one can contribute to one's server's victory by engaging in PvE. This aspect of WvW has had some criticism, in fact, by some of the WvW community.

So, you could cause the players on your side, to defeat the players on the other side, by scoring more points than they do? Almost, a player. . .

"opposing"

player situation? What could you call that? PoP?

I'd call it RvR.

Which is a subset of PvP.

[STIHL.2489]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:No, that is not what he means. WvW is largely a contest for territory. The winning server earns more points over the match by a combination of things. One way is by controlling points, which must be captured by defeating the Tower. Keep or Castle Lords, Camp Supervisors and Guards at Sentry posts. Thus, one can contribute to one's server's victory by engaging in PvE. This aspect of WvW has had some criticism, in fact, by some of the WvW community.

So, you could cause the players on your side, to defeat the players on the other side, by scoring more points than they do? Almost, a player. . .

"opposing"

player situation? What could you call that? PoP?

I'd call it RvR.

Which is a subset of PvP.

That's kinda like calling an "Outdoor Zone" instance based combat.. because you had to zone into it.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:All of those activities are PvE. It’s no different than me saying all soda is soda. Pepsi, Coke, Sprite are all arguably different yet they’re still soda.

So again.. You say all PvE is the same. Soda is Soda.. no matter the brand or flavor.. it's all soda and should be treated the same.

Numbers don’t dictate something being hard. You judge content in the way it was designed. So you group 5-man content as having five players, raids as having 10, Teq/TTT as having whatever the established minimum was, and other world bosses being around 5ish players.

By this logic I could claim Living Story should reward better loot then raids, because doing that solo is much harder then having other people there to help me, and since all PvE is just PvE, there is nothing intrinsically special about raids that should set them apart to get any kind of special loot, as such, yes.. Jumping Puzzles, Adventures, World Bosses, Living Story, all of them should reward the same.

Look.. you're not going to win this. because your logic is faulty. You are just floundering around trying to justify why your flavor is the best, while at the same time saying all soda is soda,

At this point, You can either be wrong about the division of PvE, or be wrong that Raids deserve some kind of special loot. Your choice.

For the last kitten time, I'm not saying that all PvE is the same. I seriously do not know how many times it needs to be stated to you for it to finally sink it.

You're the one that stated "If you are going to follow the logic that all PvE is PvE" which is what started this. I've said several times that raids, open world, fractals, and so on are a part of PvE. They ARE PvE. But for some kitten reason you have are under the assumption that not all PvE is PvE. As if you can refer to something as itself and then claim that it is not itself. I don't know what kind of logic that is supposed to be but keep it the kitten away from me.

You also seem to have a lack of understanding of what challenge is as something needing more players doesn't not mean that it must be more challenging. This likely due to starting after mega servers became a thing so you never got the chance to witness scaling.

Legendary armor is optional gear that players can earn. They were put in raids as a reward since raids are the most challenging PvE content in the game. Adding them to other areas of PvE would just mean that time-gates and grind would be needed to match the amount of effort required to earn them in raids. It can't be an easy-mode means to earn legendary armor nor should players be able to passively earn it.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:As I said before, it wasn’t to spite but to make a point. Asking the question again isn’t going to give you a different answer.

What would that point be, beyond suggesting an alternative that nobody asked for and that would satisfy no one, as a response to a request for actual, actionable change?

The point was to show that even being split across your new subsets wouldn't be enough. Raids are a subset of PvE but you don't like that legendary armor can only be acquired from them so you suggested splitting up PvE into several subsets with one being your preference of open world. Since adventures were part of open world, I gave the hypothetical of legendary armor being earned solely through them. I knew there would be backlash to it as "open world" wouldn't be enough of a separation as there are various elements within "open world" that people dislike just like there were within overall PvE and raids. Even if the effort to get legendary armor within "open world" was equally split between jumping puzzles, adventures, and everything else, there would still be complaints. That's because, as I said several times, this all comes down to wanting to earn legendary armor through someone's preferred means which is different from player to player.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:Since adventures were part of open world, I gave the hypothetical of legendary armor being earned solely through them.

But if you knew that players would not want that (whcih seems to be the case), then why even suggest it? Why not suggest a method that players would be happy with instead? Creating easymode examples for the sole purpose of shooting them down does not advance the discussion.

Even if the effort to get legendary armor within "open world" was equally split between jumping puzzles, adventures, and everything else, there would still be complaints. That's because, as I said several times, this all comes down to wanting to earn legendary armor through someone's preferred means which is different from player to player.

I think that ideally, rather than requiring a player to do A and B and C to get it, it would be better to allow players to do A or B or C, in any combination that worked for them. If someone wants to do just Adventures, then I suppose that's fine, if someone wanted to just do JPs, maybe that could work for him too. If someone wanted to do neither, they could do something else.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:No, that is not what he means. WvW is largely a contest for territory. The winning server earns more points over the match by a combination of things. One way is by controlling points, which must be captured by defeating the Tower. Keep or Castle Lords, Camp Supervisors and Guards at Sentry posts. Thus, one can contribute to one's server's victory by engaging in PvE. This aspect of WvW has had some criticism, in fact, by some of the WvW community.

So, you could cause the players on your side, to defeat the players on the other side, by scoring more points than they do? Almost, a player. . .

"opposing"

player situation? What could you call that? PoP?

I'd call it RvR.

Which is a subset of PvP.

Nope. It's PvEvP, or PvPvE, whichever way you want to abbreviate it. RvR is a hybrid mode -- at least in GW2.

[STIHL.2489]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:For the last kitten time, I'm not saying that all PvE is the same. I seriously do not know how many times it needs to be stated to you for it to finally sink it.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:All of those activities are PvE. It’s no different than me saying all soda is soda. Pepsi, Coke, Sprite are all arguably different yet they’re still soda.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Um... this is getting ridiculous now. PvE is PvE just like water is water.

Dude, you are flip flopping all over the place now., so... lets just go with the idea that you know and understand that PvE has various elements to it that are significantly different from each other. Much in the same way Drag Racing, NASCAR, Formula, and Dirt Bike racing, can all be called "racing" they are all Intrinsically different from each other.

So moving away from your nonsensical stand that All PvE is PvE, like water is water and soda is soda, which even you can't keep coherent about and have gone so far as to deny that is what you said,

Lets go with the fact that you Understand that not all PvE is the same, and that Team Based PvE, like Dungeons, Fractals and Raids are Intrinsically different then Open World PvE like World Maps, Jump Puzzles, Adventures, Living Story, etc.

In short, regardless of your many words, you just want to deny other people a way to enjoy this game.

That's cold dude. really uncouth.

[Ohoni.6057]

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:No, that is not what he means. WvW is largely a contest for territory. The winning server earns more points over the match by a combination of things. One way is by controlling points, which must be captured by defeating the Tower. Keep or Castle Lords, Camp Supervisors and Guards at Sentry posts. Thus, one can contribute to one's server's victory by engaging in PvE. This aspect of WvW has had some criticism, in fact, by some of the WvW community.

So, you could cause the players on your side, to defeat the players on the other side, by scoring more points than they do? Almost, a player. . .

"opposing"

player situation? What could you call that? PoP?

I'd call it RvR.

Which is a subset of PvP.

Nope. It's PvEvP, or PvPvE, whichever way you want to abbreviate it. RvR is a hybrid mode -- at least in GW2.

It's a PvP mode that also has an environment to it. Still, it ultimately comes down to PvP. You cannot play it without exposing yourself to player attacks, and your participation, even against mobs, advances a competition against other players.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:For the last kitten time, I'm not saying that all PvE is the same. I seriously do not know how many times it needs to be stated to you for it to finally sink it.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:All of those activities are PvE. It’s no different than me saying all soda is soda. Pepsi, Coke, Sprite are all arguably different yet they’re still soda.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Um... this is getting ridiculous now. PvE is PvE just like water is water.

Dude, you are flip flopping all over the place now., so... lets just go with the idea that you know and understand that PvE has various elements to it that are significantly different from each other. Much in the same way Drag Racing, NASCAR, Formula, and Dirt Bike racing, can all be called "racing" they are all Intrinsically different from each other.

So moving away from your nonsensical stand that

All PvE is PvE

, like water is water and soda is soda, which even you can't keep coherent about and have gone so far as to deny that is what you said,

Lets go with the fact that you Understand that not all PvE is the same, and that

Team Based PvE

, like Dungeons, Fractals and Raids are

Intrinsically different

then

Open World PvE

like World Maps, Jump Puzzles, Adventures, Living Story, etc.

In short, regardless of your many words, you just want to deny other people a way to enjoy this game.

That's cold dude. really uncouth.

It only seems like flip flopping because you keep making my posts out to be stating something that they don't.

At this point I'm done addressing you as you still insist that not all PvE is PvE and continue to state things that I did not say even after correcting you several times.

[STIHL.2489]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:For the last kitten time, I'm not saying that all PvE is the same. I seriously do not know how many times it needs to be stated to you for it to finally sink it.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:All of those activities are PvE. It’s no different than me saying all soda is soda. Pepsi, Coke, Sprite are all arguably different yet they’re still soda.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Um... this is getting ridiculous now. PvE is PvE just like water is water.

Dude, you are flip flopping all over the place now., so... lets just go with the idea that you know and understand that PvE has various elements to it that are significantly different from each other. Much in the same way Drag Racing, NASCAR, Formula, and Dirt Bike racing, can all be called "racing" they are all Intrinsically different from each other.

So moving away from your nonsensical stand that

All PvE is PvE

, like water is water and soda is soda, which even you can't keep coherent about and have gone so far as to deny that is what you said,

Lets go with the fact that you Understand that not all PvE is the same, and that

Team Based PvE

, like Dungeons, Fractals and Raids are

Intrinsically different

then

Open World PvE

like World Maps, Jump Puzzles, Adventures, Living Story, etc.

In short, regardless of your many words, you just want to deny other people a way to enjoy this game.

That's cold dude. really uncouth.

It only seems like flip flopping because you keep making my posts out to be stating something that they don't.

At this point I'm done addressing you as you still insist that not all PvE is PvE and continue to state things that I did not say even after correcting you several times.

It's kinda hard to say you never said that.. when I can quote you.. welcome to the Internet.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:Since adventures were part of open world, I gave the hypothetical of legendary armor being earned solely through them.

But if you knew that players would not want that (whcih seems to be the case), then why even suggest it? Why not suggest a method that players

would

be happy with instead? Creating easymode examples for the sole purpose of shooting them down does not advance the discussion.

Even if the effort to get legendary armor within "open world" was equally split between jumping puzzles, adventures, and everything else, there would still be complaints. That's because, as I said several times, this all comes down to wanting to earn legendary armor through someone's preferred means which is different from player to player.

I think that ideally, rather than requiring a player to do A

and

B

and

C to get it, it would be better to allow players to do A

or

B

or

C, in any combination that worked for them. If someone wants to do just Adventures, then I suppose that's fine, if someone wanted to just do JPs, maybe that could work for him too. If someone wanted to do neither, they could do something else.

I stated why later in my post.

I didn't create an easy mode example just to shoot it down. In fact, that's the one thing I do not want. The thing is that you can't really do anything other than time-gates and grind in open world to make it come close to what is required in raids. The problem with having so many ways to get legendary armor is that you can literally do anything and progress it. Eventually it becomes something you just have rather than something you worked to earn and obtain.