ANet, please officially alter the three pillars

[STIHL.2489]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:The only point of this thread is 'How does Ohoni get Envoy skins without raiding'. This thread is pointless. It only exists because your easy mode raiding crusade failed.

No, there's a different thread for that.

No, both threads have the same goal. Legendary armor in open world. You just want to redefine those 'pillars' to strenghten your argument that there is no legendary armor in PvE. Which is the case, just not in open world.

Actually, it would help all game modes be respected with their own equal rewards, but for that to happen, they all first need to be acknowledged.

Which they already are as each mode offers a way to get legendary armor and backpack. Weapons have always crossed multiple modes.

Unless you’re referring to splitting up the three modes further in which case I should be able to earn legendary armor by doing activities and adventures.

No.. Failure to respect the vary massive difference between Team Based PvE and Open world PvE, and living in an faulty ideal of ALL PvE is the same, is the core of the problem. Once that is addressed, then we can talk about loot, but as long as people deny this very real separation, progress will not happen and it will just hurt Anet and every other MMO's future development.

Well if you feel that they should be split further then I feel they should be split further than that.

Or Anet can add them solely to adventures only and call that adding them to “open world” since that’s where most of them are.

Ok lets use your logic, so.. all PVE is the same to you, as such, since you know, it was difficult and challenging, I should get legendary armor from doing the Mad King's jump puzzle, and ascended weapons from doing open world champions, as I am sure it's harder for me to solo them then it is for you and 9 static group friends to do a raid.

IF all PvE is the same to you, then it should make no difference, it's all the same, and since challenge is retaliative, ascended from Jump puzzles, Legendary weapons from doing hearts or map completion.. why not. .PvE is PvE.. all the same , .. right?

[Ayrilana.1396]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:The only point of this thread is 'How does Ohoni get Envoy skins without raiding'. This thread is pointless. It only exists because your easy mode raiding crusade failed.

No, there's a different thread for that.

No, both threads have the same goal. Legendary armor in open world. You just want to redefine those 'pillars' to strenghten your argument that there is no legendary armor in PvE. Which is the case, just not in open world.

Actually, it would help all game modes be respected with their own equal rewards, but for that to happen, they all first need to be acknowledged.

Which they already are as each mode offers a way to get legendary armor and backpack. Weapons have always crossed multiple modes.

Unless you’re referring to splitting up the three modes further in which case I should be able to earn legendary armor by doing activities and adventures.

No.. Failure to respect the vary massive difference between Team Based PvE and Open world PvE, and living in an faulty ideal of ALL PvE is the same, is the core of the problem. Once that is addressed, then we can talk about loot, but as long as people deny this very real separation, progress will not happen and it will just hurt Anet and every other MMO's future development.

Well if you feel that they should be split further then I feel they should be split further than that.

Or Anet can add them solely to adventures only and call that adding them to “open world” since that’s where most of them are.

Ok lets use your logic, so.. all PVE is the same to you, as such, since you know, it was difficult and challenging, I should get legendary armor from doing the Mad King's jump puzzle, and ascended weapons from doing open world champions, as I am sure it's harder for me to solo them then it is for you and 9 static group friends to do a raid.

IF all PvE is the same to you, then it should make no difference, it's all the same, and since challenge is retaliative, ascended from Jump puzzles, Legendary weapons from doing hearts or map completion.. why not. .PvE is PvE.. all the same , .. right?

Actually, that logic is yours and Ohoni’s, not mine. PvE can be broken up as many ways that you want depending on the game.

You both wanted open world so I have the suggestion to have them tied solely to adventures. With a few exceptions, adventures are all open world. Open world content is open world content. Unless you have a problem with that of course.

[TexZero.7910]

@STIHL.2489 said:IF all PvE is the same to you, then it should make no difference, it's all the same, and since challenge is retaliative, ascended from Jump puzzles, Legendary weapons from doing hearts or map completion.. why not. .PvE is PvE.. all the same , .. right?

You do know this analogy is pretty faulty as you already can get ascended items from champions and jumping puzzles right ?It's just not common because, get this they aren't as hard as other content where-in the reward chance is greater as is the actual reward.

[STIHL.2489]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:The only point of this thread is 'How does Ohoni get Envoy skins without raiding'. This thread is pointless. It only exists because your easy mode raiding crusade failed.

No, there's a different thread for that.

No, both threads have the same goal. Legendary armor in open world. You just want to redefine those 'pillars' to strenghten your argument that there is no legendary armor in PvE. Which is the case, just not in open world.

Actually, it would help all game modes be respected with their own equal rewards, but for that to happen, they all first need to be acknowledged.

Which they already are as each mode offers a way to get legendary armor and backpack. Weapons have always crossed multiple modes.

Unless you’re referring to splitting up the three modes further in which case I should be able to earn legendary armor by doing activities and adventures.

No.. Failure to respect the vary massive difference between Team Based PvE and Open world PvE, and living in an faulty ideal of ALL PvE is the same, is the core of the problem. Once that is addressed, then we can talk about loot, but as long as people deny this very real separation, progress will not happen and it will just hurt Anet and every other MMO's future development.

Well if you feel that they should be split further then I feel they should be split further than that.

Or Anet can add them solely to adventures only and call that adding them to “open world” since that’s where most of them are.

Ok lets use your logic, so.. all PVE is the same to you, as such, since you know, it was difficult and challenging, I should get legendary armor from doing the Mad King's jump puzzle, and ascended weapons from doing open world champions, as I am sure it's harder for me to solo them then it is for you and 9 static group friends to do a raid.

IF all PvE is the same to you, then it should make no difference, it's all the same, and since challenge is retaliative, ascended from Jump puzzles, Legendary weapons from doing hearts or map completion.. why not. .PvE is PvE.. all the same , .. right?

Actually, that logic is yours and Ohoni’s, not mine. PvE can be broken up as many ways that you want depending on the game.

You both wanted open world so I have the suggestion to have them tied solely to adventures. With a few exceptions, adventures are all open world.

All adventures are open world, but not all Open world is adventures, what you are proposing is a mentally defunct as saying that is should be only tied to Jumping puzzles.

But. well, as far as my opponents go, that kind of logic is about par for the course

I was imply pointing out that not all PvE is the same, and clinging to an idea that is , is bad for the games development. But by all means, throw out nonsense at this point, if that is all you have.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:The only point of this thread is 'How does Ohoni get Envoy skins without raiding'. This thread is pointless. It only exists because your easy mode raiding crusade failed.

No, there's a different thread for that.

No, both threads have the same goal. Legendary armor in open world. You just want to redefine those 'pillars' to strenghten your argument that there is no legendary armor in PvE. Which is the case, just not in open world.

Actually, it would help all game modes be respected with their own equal rewards, but for that to happen, they all first need to be acknowledged.

Which they already are as each mode offers a way to get legendary armor and backpack. Weapons have always crossed multiple modes.

Unless you’re referring to splitting up the three modes further in which case I should be able to earn legendary armor by doing activities and adventures.

No.. Failure to respect the vary massive difference between Team Based PvE and Open world PvE, and living in an faulty ideal of ALL PvE is the same, is the core of the problem. Once that is addressed, then we can talk about loot, but as long as people deny this very real separation, progress will not happen and it will just hurt Anet and every other MMO's future development.

Well if you feel that they should be split further then I feel they should be split further than that.

Or Anet can add them solely to adventures only and call that adding them to “open world” since that’s where most of them are.

Ok lets use your logic, so.. all PVE is the same to you, as such, since you know, it was difficult and challenging, I should get legendary armor from doing the Mad King's jump puzzle, and ascended weapons from doing open world champions, as I am sure it's harder for me to solo them then it is for you and 9 static group friends to do a raid.

IF all PvE is the same to you, then it should make no difference, it's all the same, and since challenge is retaliative, ascended from Jump puzzles, Legendary weapons from doing hearts or map completion.. why not. .PvE is PvE.. all the same , .. right?

Actually, that logic is yours and Ohoni’s, not mine. PvE can be broken up as many ways that you want depending on the game.

You both wanted open world so I have the suggestion to have them tied solely to adventures. With a few exceptions, adventures are all open world.

All adventures are open world, but not all Open world is adventures, what you are proposing is a mentally defunct as saying that is should be only tied to Jumping puzzles.

But. well, as far as my opponents go, that kind of logic is about par for the course

I was imply pointing out that not all PvE is the same, and clinging to an idea that is , is bad for the games development. But by all means, throw out nonsense at this point, if that is all you have.

All open world is PvE, but not all PvE is open world. If my statement in the previous post was mentally defunct, then so is the one in the previous sentence.

If making legendary armor only available in one segment of open world causes issues then clearly people have personal preferences amongst them just as they do over raids vs open world. Having legendary armor confined to only adventures in open world is inherently no different than having legendary armor confined to only raids in PvE.

What this is coming down to is someone has a personal preference on how they’d like to earn legendary armor.

[Tails.9372]

@STIHL.2489 said:what you are proposing is as mentally defunct as saying that is should be only tied to Jumping puzzlesHow is saying JP should get their own legendary armor set "mentally defunct"? They're distinct enough from OW PvM (and any of the other content) to warrant to be treated as their own thing. They just happen to be in the same vicinity as some of the other stuff, that's all. The problem in this case wouldn't be giving JPs their own legendary armor set, it'll be the people who act as if stuff like OW PvM shouldn't get one because of it.

[STIHL.2489]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:The only point of this thread is 'How does Ohoni get Envoy skins without raiding'. This thread is pointless. It only exists because your easy mode raiding crusade failed.

No, there's a different thread for that.

No, both threads have the same goal. Legendary armor in open world. You just want to redefine those 'pillars' to strenghten your argument that there is no legendary armor in PvE. Which is the case, just not in open world.

Actually, it would help all game modes be respected with their own equal rewards, but for that to happen, they all first need to be acknowledged.

Which they already are as each mode offers a way to get legendary armor and backpack. Weapons have always crossed multiple modes.

Unless you’re referring to splitting up the three modes further in which case I should be able to earn legendary armor by doing activities and adventures.

No.. Failure to respect the vary massive difference between Team Based PvE and Open world PvE, and living in an faulty ideal of ALL PvE is the same, is the core of the problem. Once that is addressed, then we can talk about loot, but as long as people deny this very real separation, progress will not happen and it will just hurt Anet and every other MMO's future development.

Well if you feel that they should be split further then I feel they should be split further than that.

Or Anet can add them solely to adventures only and call that adding them to “open world” since that’s where most of them are.

Ok lets use your logic, so.. all PVE is the same to you, as such, since you know, it was difficult and challenging, I should get legendary armor from doing the Mad King's jump puzzle, and ascended weapons from doing open world champions, as I am sure it's harder for me to solo them then it is for you and 9 static group friends to do a raid.

IF all PvE is the same to you, then it should make no difference, it's all the same, and since challenge is retaliative, ascended from Jump puzzles, Legendary weapons from doing hearts or map completion.. why not. .PvE is PvE.. all the same , .. right?

Actually, that logic is yours and Ohoni’s, not mine. PvE can be broken up as many ways that you want depending on the game.

You both wanted open world so I have the suggestion to have them tied solely to adventures. With a few exceptions, adventures are all open world.

All adventures are open world, but not all Open world is adventures, what you are proposing is a mentally defunct as saying that is should be only tied to Jumping puzzles.

But. well, as far as my opponents go, that kind of logic is about par for the course

I was imply pointing out that not all PvE is the same, and clinging to an idea that is , is bad for the games development. But by all means, throw out nonsense at this point, if that is all you have.

All open world is PvE, but not all PvE is open world. If my statement in the previous post was mentally defunct, then so is the one in the previous sentence.

If making legendary armor only available in one segment of open world causes issues then clearly people have personal preferences amongst them just as they do over raids vs open world. Having legendary armor confined to only adventures in open world is inherently no different than having legendary armor confined to only raids in PvE.

What this is coming down to is someone has a personal preference on how they’d like to earn legendary armor.

If you are going to follow the logic that all PvE is PvE, the Jormag should reward better then a raid, as it only takes 10 people to do a raid, and 30 to do Jormag.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:The only point of this thread is 'How does Ohoni get Envoy skins without raiding'. This thread is pointless. It only exists because your easy mode raiding crusade failed.

No, there's a different thread for that.

No, both threads have the same goal. Legendary armor in open world. You just want to redefine those 'pillars' to strenghten your argument that there is no legendary armor in PvE. Which is the case, just not in open world.

Actually, it would help all game modes be respected with their own equal rewards, but for that to happen, they all first need to be acknowledged.

Which they already are as each mode offers a way to get legendary armor and backpack. Weapons have always crossed multiple modes.

Unless you’re referring to splitting up the three modes further in which case I should be able to earn legendary armor by doing activities and adventures.

No.. Failure to respect the vary massive difference between Team Based PvE and Open world PvE, and living in an faulty ideal of ALL PvE is the same, is the core of the problem. Once that is addressed, then we can talk about loot, but as long as people deny this very real separation, progress will not happen and it will just hurt Anet and every other MMO's future development.

Well if you feel that they should be split further then I feel they should be split further than that.

Or Anet can add them solely to adventures only and call that adding them to “open world” since that’s where most of them are.

Ok lets use your logic, so.. all PVE is the same to you, as such, since you know, it was difficult and challenging, I should get legendary armor from doing the Mad King's jump puzzle, and ascended weapons from doing open world champions, as I am sure it's harder for me to solo them then it is for you and 9 static group friends to do a raid.

IF all PvE is the same to you, then it should make no difference, it's all the same, and since challenge is retaliative, ascended from Jump puzzles, Legendary weapons from doing hearts or map completion.. why not. .PvE is PvE.. all the same , .. right?

Actually, that logic is yours and Ohoni’s, not mine. PvE can be broken up as many ways that you want depending on the game.

You both wanted open world so I have the suggestion to have them tied solely to adventures. With a few exceptions, adventures are all open world.

All adventures are open world, but not all Open world is adventures, what you are proposing is a mentally defunct as saying that is should be only tied to Jumping puzzles.

But. well, as far as my opponents go, that kind of logic is about par for the course

I was imply pointing out that not all PvE is the same, and clinging to an idea that is , is bad for the games development. But by all means, throw out nonsense at this point, if that is all you have.

All open world is PvE, but not all PvE is open world. If my statement in the previous post was mentally defunct, then so is the one in the previous sentence.

If making legendary armor only available in one segment of open world causes issues then clearly people have personal preferences amongst them just as they do over raids vs open world. Having legendary armor confined to only adventures in open world is inherently no different than having legendary armor confined to only raids in PvE.

What this is coming down to is someone has a personal preference on how they’d like to earn legendary armor.

If you are going to follow the logic that all PvE is PvE, the Jormag should reward better then a raid, as it only takes 10 people to do a raid, and 30 to do Jormag.

Um... this is getting ridiculous now. PvE is PvE just like water is water. Jormag can be done with five players as you're forgetting about scaling.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Tails.9372 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:PvE is a perfectly fine term. Only because you don't like all parts of PvE doesn't make it less useful. Most people dislike some aspects of it and like others.Same thing goes for PvP. The legendary backpiece in sPvP is only available in ranked. Some people hate ranked PvP, will never set a foot into it and don't complain that it is not part of PvP. Similiar to instanced PvE. Some people hate it and won't play it but it is still PvE. Open world maps have the monopol for legendary weapons and instanced PvE has the armor and backpiece.What are you talking about? Whether or not people like to play certain parts of PvE has nothing to do with my post. When it comes to distinguishing between content then off course it's too vague to be useful. Why do think people say "WvW" and "sPvP" instead of just PvP? Same thing here.

Because one can not only participate in wvw without engaging another player, one can actually contribute to victory conditions in wvw solely by attacking AI, PvE gameplay.

You mean "one can contribute towards defeating the enemy players?"

@Ayrilana.1396 said:You both wanted open world so I have the suggestion to have them tied solely to adventures. With a few exceptions, adventures are all open world. Open world content is open world content. Unless you have a problem with that of course.

Interesting. Would you say that this plan would be designed to make more players happy, or to spite more players? And what do you believe your answer to that question would say about yourself?

What this is coming down to is someone has a personal preference on how they’d like to earn legendary armor.

A fair point, so wouldn't it be best to try and accommodate as many of those preferences as one could reasonably manage?

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

I don't think it would be best to accommodate as many preferences (in obtaining Legendary Armor) as possible. Unless said Legendary Armor was obtainable from every form of content, there would just be more and more outcries of "Well, they got it, now we want it, as well". And considering how long it takes to create armor/create collections/create reward avenues, the resources would probably be better spent elsewhere.

[Sarrs.4831]

Doesn't really make sense.

"Three pillars" is an advertising gimmick. It's a big tent MMO trying to sell people reasons to come into the tent. We have small-scale competitive pvp, we have large-scale open-world pvp, those are things that on their own give you a very clear idea of what you're trying to sell. You're right in that 'PvE' as a category doesn't really help and doesn't reflect the current state of the game compared to launch... But the launch pitch of the game is fundamentally different from an expansion pitch. People can look really deep into what they're getting into with GW2, and broad vagaries like 'three pillars' don't actually sound like they'd be effective for sales.

Also the argument that sPvP and WvW are dead modes and shouldn't drive content development is a bad one because sPvP and WvW already don't drive content development. WvW's had one map since HoT launch. sPvP's had like four or five. PvE's had sixteen, and fractals, and raids. PvE obviously receives its fair share of content.

Also you don't actually care about any of the fundamental arguments you just want legendary armor for casual PvE.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Tails.9372 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:PvE is a perfectly fine term. Only because you don't like all parts of PvE doesn't make it less useful. Most people dislike some aspects of it and like others.Same thing goes for PvP. The legendary backpiece in sPvP is only available in ranked. Some people hate ranked PvP, will never set a foot into it and don't complain that it is not part of PvP. Similiar to instanced PvE. Some people hate it and won't play it but it is still PvE. Open world maps have the monopol for legendary weapons and instanced PvE has the armor and backpiece.What are you talking about? Whether or not people like to play certain parts of PvE has nothing to do with my post. When it comes to distinguishing between content then off course it's too vague to be useful. Why do think people say "WvW" and "sPvP" instead of just PvP? Same thing here.

Because one can not only participate in wvw without engaging another player, one can actually contribute to victory conditions in wvw solely by attacking AI, PvE gameplay.

You mean "one can contribute towards

defeating the enemy players?

"

@Ayrilana.1396 said:You both wanted open world so I have the suggestion to have them tied solely to adventures. With a few exceptions, adventures are all open world. Open world content is open world content. Unless you have a problem with that of course.

Interesting. Would you say that this plan would be designed to make more players happy, or to spite more players? And what do you believe your answer to that question would say about yourself?

What this is coming down to is someone has a personal preference on how they’d like to earn legendary armor.

A fair point, so wouldn't it be best to try and accommodate as many of those preferences as one could reasonably manage?

The intent wasn't to spite. It was to prove a point which I made in a later post.

[STIHL.2489]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:The only point of this thread is 'How does Ohoni get Envoy skins without raiding'. This thread is pointless. It only exists because your easy mode raiding crusade failed.

No, there's a different thread for that.

No, both threads have the same goal. Legendary armor in open world. You just want to redefine those 'pillars' to strenghten your argument that there is no legendary armor in PvE. Which is the case, just not in open world.

Actually, it would help all game modes be respected with their own equal rewards, but for that to happen, they all first need to be acknowledged.

Which they already are as each mode offers a way to get legendary armor and backpack. Weapons have always crossed multiple modes.

Unless you’re referring to splitting up the three modes further in which case I should be able to earn legendary armor by doing activities and adventures.

No.. Failure to respect the vary massive difference between Team Based PvE and Open world PvE, and living in an faulty ideal of ALL PvE is the same, is the core of the problem. Once that is addressed, then we can talk about loot, but as long as people deny this very real separation, progress will not happen and it will just hurt Anet and every other MMO's future development.

Well if you feel that they should be split further then I feel they should be split further than that.

Or Anet can add them solely to adventures only and call that adding them to “open world” since that’s where most of them are.

Ok lets use your logic, so.. all PVE is the same to you, as such, since you know, it was difficult and challenging, I should get legendary armor from doing the Mad King's jump puzzle, and ascended weapons from doing open world champions, as I am sure it's harder for me to solo them then it is for you and 9 static group friends to do a raid.

IF all PvE is the same to you, then it should make no difference, it's all the same, and since challenge is retaliative, ascended from Jump puzzles, Legendary weapons from doing hearts or map completion.. why not. .PvE is PvE.. all the same , .. right?

Actually, that logic is yours and Ohoni’s, not mine. PvE can be broken up as many ways that you want depending on the game.

You both wanted open world so I have the suggestion to have them tied solely to adventures. With a few exceptions, adventures are all open world.

All adventures are open world, but not all Open world is adventures, what you are proposing is a mentally defunct as saying that is should be only tied to Jumping puzzles.

But. well, as far as my opponents go, that kind of logic is about par for the course

I was imply pointing out that not all PvE is the same, and clinging to an idea that is , is bad for the games development. But by all means, throw out nonsense at this point, if that is all you have.

All open world is PvE, but not all PvE is open world. If my statement in the previous post was mentally defunct, then so is the one in the previous sentence.

If making legendary armor only available in one segment of open world causes issues then clearly people have personal preferences amongst them just as they do over raids vs open world. Having legendary armor confined to only adventures in open world is inherently no different than having legendary armor confined to only raids in PvE.

What this is coming down to is someone has a personal preference on how they’d like to earn legendary armor.

If you are going to follow the logic that all PvE is PvE, the Jormag should reward better then a raid, as it only takes 10 people to do a raid, and 30 to do Jormag.

Um... this is getting ridiculous now. PvE is PvE just like water is water. Jormag can be done with five players as you're forgetting about scaling.

This I gotta see. No really.. I have got to see 5 people do Jormag. I don't believe it is possible. In fact I call shenanigans,, get your raid group together and do it, and show me a 5 Person Jormag.

I would also love to see a 5 people do Triple trouble, or Vine Wreath.

If all PvE is PvE, like water is water, something like Teq is impossible with only 10 people, ergo Teq should have better rewards then Raids, because its harder.

If you disagree with this, then the fault is in your logic to try and treat all PvE the same.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Nobody says otherwise. However, if we were splitting the modes only according to that, we would have had

two

modes, not three. PvE and PvP. Both WvW and sPvP are all PvP, and any attempt to say otherwise is silly. And yet they constitute two different modes not one.

I like how the common defense is no one says otherwise and yet....

The OP is saying just that when and where it suits them.

WvW isn't just PvP. Last i checked those keeps/towers/scouts are all AI and it requires their deaths to take control of the structures.At its core WvW is a watered down RvR gameplay experience. I know another acronym for a term you probably don't know about but even it the most basic RvR's there's always been elements of PvE.

Just a comment, doesn’t the sPvP map Battle of Champion’s Dusk have PvE elements also since they can break down gates and kill the Lord to win? Also, Raid on the Capricorn had PvE elements when it was in the sPvP maps.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Tails.9372 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:PvE is a perfectly fine term. Only because you don't like all parts of PvE doesn't make it less useful. Most people dislike some aspects of it and like others.Same thing goes for PvP. The legendary backpiece in sPvP is only available in ranked. Some people hate ranked PvP, will never set a foot into it and don't complain that it is not part of PvP. Similiar to instanced PvE. Some people hate it and won't play it but it is still PvE. Open world maps have the monopol for legendary weapons and instanced PvE has the armor and backpiece.What are you talking about? Whether or not people like to play certain parts of PvE has nothing to do with my post. When it comes to distinguishing between content then off course it's too vague to be useful. Why do think people say "WvW" and "sPvP" instead of just PvP? Same thing here.

Because WvW has a lot more PvE Elements than sPvP and you have equipment templates in sPvP and can't use food while you use your normal equipment in WvW and can use food. The balancing is completly different. Thats why you divide PvP in sPvP and WvW.The basic rules in open world maps and instanced PvE are exactly the same.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:I don't think it would be best to accommodate as many preferences (in obtaining Legendary Armor) as possible. Unless said Legendary Armor was obtainable from every form of content, there would just be more and more outcries of "Well, they got it, now we want it, as well".

Maybe, but they would become less and less valid as complaints. Think of it like a giant lunch hall, and everyone is grouped roughly by the types of food they generally enjoy. At the moment, only a small corner of the room is being served food that they enjoy at all, so we draw a circle around them. What you would try to do is find food that the largest masses of people would enjoy, so that you can build overlapping Venn bubbles all around the room, encompassing as many of those players as possible. Some might eventually still be left out, but a lot more would be inside at least one of those circles. The idea is, they might not capture perfectly how you want to play, but chances are they can at least get a lot closer than "raid or nothing."

Covering every single person may not be feasible, but surely the developers can do well better at this than they have so far, where the Envoy armor is restricted only to people who participate in content that only a small fraction of the population frequents.

And considering how long it takes to create armor/create collections/create reward avenues, the resources would probably be better spent elsewhere.

The same argument could much more easily be applied to the raids themselves, don't you think?

@Sarrs.4831 said:Also the argument that sPvP and WvW are dead modes and shouldn't drive content development is a bad one because sPvP and WvW already don't drive content development. WvW's had one map since HoT launch. sPvP's had like four or five. PvE's had sixteen, and fractals, and raids. PvE obviously receives its fair share of content.

If you're just talking maps, then sure, but the PoF elite specs seem almost entirely based around sPvP comps, or occasionally WvW comps, and many of the subsequence balance changes were specifically to address PvP concerns. There's more to game design and content than just maps.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:You both wanted open world so I have the suggestion to have them tied solely to adventures. With a few exceptions, adventures are all open world. Open world content is open world content. Unless you have a problem with that of course.

Interesting. Would you say that this plan would be designed to make more players happy, or to spite more players? And what do you believe your answer to that question would say about yourself?The intent wasn't to spite. It was to prove a point which I made in a later post.

But again, the proposal to tie them solely to adventures, do you make that proposal because you believe that would make more players happy, or because you believe it would hurt more players? Are you interested in making more players happy, or do you just want to harm those you disagree with?

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:I don't think it would be best to accommodate as many preferences (in obtaining Legendary Armor) as possible. Unless said Legendary Armor was obtainable from every form of content, there would just be more and more outcries of "Well,

they

got it, now we want it, as well".

Maybe, but they would become less and less valid as complaints. Think of it like a giant lunch hall, and everyone is grouped roughly by the types of food they generally enjoy. At the moment, only a small corner of the room is being served food that they enjoy at all, so we draw a circle around them. What you would try to do is find food that the largest masses of people would enjoy, so that you can build overlapping Venn bubbles all around the room, encompassing as many of those players as possible. Some might eventually still be left out, but a lot more would be inside at least one of those circles. The idea is, they might not capture perfectly how you want to play, but chances are they can at least get a lot closer than "raid or nothing."

Covering every single person may not be feasible, but surely the developers can do well

better

at this than they have so far, where the Envoy armor is restricted only to people who participate in content that only a small fraction of the population frequents.

And considering how long it takes to create armor/create collections/create reward avenues, the resources would probably be better spent elsewhere.

The same argument could

much

more easily be applied to the raids themselves, don't you think?

@Sarrs.4831 said:Also the argument that sPvP and WvW are dead modes and shouldn't drive content development is a bad one because sPvP and WvW already don't drive content development. WvW's had one map since HoT launch. sPvP's had like four or five. PvE's had sixteen, and fractals, and raids. PvE obviously receives its fair share of content.

If you're just talking maps, then sure, but the PoF elite specs seem almost entirely based around sPvP comps, or occasionally WvW comps, and many of the subsequence balance changes were specifically to address PvP concerns. There's more to game design and content than just maps.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:You both wanted open world so I have the suggestion to have them tied solely to adventures. With a few exceptions, adventures are all open world. Open world content is open world content. Unless you have a problem with that of course.

Interesting. Would you say that this plan would be designed to make more players happy, or to spite more players? And what do you believe your answer to that question would say about yourself?The intent wasn't to spite. It was to prove a point which I made in a later post.

But again, the proposal to tie them solely to adventures, do you make that proposal because you believe that would make more players happy, or because you believe it would hurt more players? Are you interested in making more players happy, or do you just want to harm those you disagree with?

As I said before, it wasn’t to spite but to make a point. Asking the question again isn’t going to give you a different answer.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:The only point of this thread is 'How does Ohoni get Envoy skins without raiding'. This thread is pointless. It only exists because your easy mode raiding crusade failed.

No, there's a different thread for that.

No, both threads have the same goal. Legendary armor in open world. You just want to redefine those 'pillars' to strenghten your argument that there is no legendary armor in PvE. Which is the case, just not in open world.

Actually, it would help all game modes be respected with their own equal rewards, but for that to happen, they all first need to be acknowledged.

Which they already are as each mode offers a way to get legendary armor and backpack. Weapons have always crossed multiple modes.

Unless you’re referring to splitting up the three modes further in which case I should be able to earn legendary armor by doing activities and adventures.

No.. Failure to respect the vary massive difference between Team Based PvE and Open world PvE, and living in an faulty ideal of ALL PvE is the same, is the core of the problem. Once that is addressed, then we can talk about loot, but as long as people deny this very real separation, progress will not happen and it will just hurt Anet and every other MMO's future development.

Well if you feel that they should be split further then I feel they should be split further than that.

Or Anet can add them solely to adventures only and call that adding them to “open world” since that’s where most of them are.

Ok lets use your logic, so.. all PVE is the same to you, as such, since you know, it was difficult and challenging, I should get legendary armor from doing the Mad King's jump puzzle, and ascended weapons from doing open world champions, as I am sure it's harder for me to solo them then it is for you and 9 static group friends to do a raid.

IF all PvE is the same to you, then it should make no difference, it's all the same, and since challenge is retaliative, ascended from Jump puzzles, Legendary weapons from doing hearts or map completion.. why not. .PvE is PvE.. all the same , .. right?

Actually, that logic is yours and Ohoni’s, not mine. PvE can be broken up as many ways that you want depending on the game.

You both wanted open world so I have the suggestion to have them tied solely to adventures. With a few exceptions, adventures are all open world.

All adventures are open world, but not all Open world is adventures, what you are proposing is a mentally defunct as saying that is should be only tied to Jumping puzzles.

But. well, as far as my opponents go, that kind of logic is about par for the course

I was imply pointing out that not all PvE is the same, and clinging to an idea that is , is bad for the games development. But by all means, throw out nonsense at this point, if that is all you have.

All open world is PvE, but not all PvE is open world. If my statement in the previous post was mentally defunct, then so is the one in the previous sentence.

If making legendary armor only available in one segment of open world causes issues then clearly people have personal preferences amongst them just as they do over raids vs open world. Having legendary armor confined to only adventures in open world is inherently no different than having legendary armor confined to only raids in PvE.

What this is coming down to is someone has a personal preference on how they’d like to earn legendary armor.

If you are going to follow the logic that all PvE is PvE, the Jormag should reward better then a raid, as it only takes 10 people to do a raid, and 30 to do Jormag.

Um... this is getting ridiculous now. PvE is PvE just like water is water. Jormag can be done with five players as you're forgetting about scaling.

This I gotta see. No really.. I have got to see 5 people do Jormag. I don't believe it is possible. In fact I call shenanigans,, get your raid group together and do it, and show me a 5 Person Jormag.

I would also love to see a 5 people do Triple trouble, or Vine Wreath.

If all PvE is PvE, like water is water, something like Teq is impossible with only 10 people, ergo Teq should have better rewards then Raids, because its harder.

If you disagree with this, then the fault is in your logic to try and treat all PvE the same.

I suggest you check what PvE means. There are plenty of sources online which will enlighten you.

Here’s a freebie.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/player_versus_environment

All of your examples in attempts to prove me wrong fall under PvE.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

Because one can not only participate in wvw without engaging another player, one can actually contribute to victory conditions in wvw solely by attacking AI, PvE gameplay.

You mean "one can contribute towards

defeating the enemy players?

"

No, that is not what he means. WvW is largely a contest for territory. The winning server earns more points over the match by a combination of things. One way is by controlling points, which must be captured by defeating the Tower. Keep or Castle Lords, Camp Supervisors and Guards at Sentry posts. Thus, one can contribute to one's server's victory by engaging in PvE. This aspect of WvW has had some criticism, in fact, by some of the WvW community.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

No, I don't think, as it doesn't take 2 years to create a Raid wing.You can argue for your preference that Legendary Armor isn't well-represented in PvE, but claiming Raids aren't PvE probably isn't the best way to get what your desire. Perhaps, it might serve your purpose better to just offer a suggestion as to which other PvE content should be considered difficult enough to warrant Legendary Armor as a reward.

Good luck.

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:No, I don't think, as it doesn't take 2 years to create a Raid wing.You can argue for your preference that Legendary Armor isn't well-represented in PvE, but claiming Raids aren't PvE probably isn't the best way to get what your desire. Perhaps, it might serve your purpose better to just offer a suggestion as to which other PvE content should be considered difficult enough to warrant Legendary Armor as a reward.

Good luck.

Challenge Mode Fractals?

I've thought about trying WvWvW since that's what Reaper is welcomed in but any time I've gotten in their the Commander is a million miles away and I have no idea how to reach them.

So basically you just follow the Commander around and kill things/people?

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

@Oldirtbeard.9834 said:

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:No, I don't think, as it doesn't take 2 years to create a Raid wing.You can argue for your preference that Legendary Armor isn't well-represented in PvE, but claiming Raids aren't PvE probably isn't the best way to get what your desire. Perhaps, it might serve your purpose better to just offer a suggestion as to which

other

PvE content should be considered difficult enough to warrant Legendary Armor as a reward.

Good luck.

Challenge Mode Fractals?

I've thought about trying WvWvW since that's what Reaper is welcomed in but any time I've gotten in their the Commander is a million miles away and I have no idea how to reach them.

So basically you just follow the Commander around and kill things/people?

If you like...or you can Roam, or you can take the PvE-content route in WvW. That's what I do. /shrug

As for CM Fractals, sure...until some player, or group of players posts about how they don't enjoy Fractals (or Raids), and want some other way to acquire Legendary Armor.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Oldirtbeard.9834 said:

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:No, I don't think, as it doesn't take 2 years to create a Raid wing.You can argue for your preference that Legendary Armor isn't well-represented in PvE, but claiming Raids aren't PvE probably isn't the best way to get what your desire. Perhaps, it might serve your purpose better to just offer a suggestion as to which

other

PvE content should be considered difficult enough to warrant Legendary Armor as a reward.

Good luck.

Challenge Mode Fractals?

I've thought about trying WvWvW since that's what Reaper is welcomed in but any time I've gotten in their the Commander is a million miles away and I have no idea how to reach them.

So basically you just follow the Commander around and kill things/people?

Challenge Mode Fractals are harder than a lot of the Raid bosses. Some of the achievements are Raid CM worthy.The problem with those is that there are only 2 of them and they'd have to put too many collection achievements on them. However, once they add some more, let's say 3 more CMs, and make them like progression, 96-97-98-99-100, then they could make a Legendary Armor collection in Fractals. I believe it will eventually come, it's only a matter of time.

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

@Oldirtbeard.9834 said:

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:No, I don't think, as it doesn't take 2 years to create a Raid wing.You can argue for your preference that Legendary Armor isn't well-represented in PvE, but claiming Raids aren't PvE probably isn't the best way to get what your desire. Perhaps, it might serve your purpose better to just offer a suggestion as to which

other

PvE content should be considered difficult enough to warrant Legendary Armor as a reward.

Good luck.

Challenge Mode Fractals?

I've thought about trying WvWvW since that's what Reaper is welcomed in but any time I've gotten in their the Commander is a million miles away and I have no idea how to reach them.

So basically you just follow the Commander around and kill things/people?

If you like...or you can Roam, or you can take the PvE-content route in WvW. That's what I do. /shrug

As for CM Fractals, sure...until some player, or group of players posts about how they don't enjoy Fractals (or Raids), and want some

other

way to acquire Legendary Armor.

What PVE element, how does that work?

I suck too much to go 1v1.

[Dashiva.6149]

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Tails.9372 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:PvE is a perfectly fine term. Only because you don't like all parts of PvE doesn't make it less useful. Most people dislike some aspects of it and like others.Same thing goes for PvP. The legendary backpiece in sPvP is only available in ranked. Some people hate ranked PvP, will never set a foot into it and don't complain that it is not part of PvP. Similiar to instanced PvE. Some people hate it and won't play it but it is still PvE. Open world maps have the monopol for legendary weapons and instanced PvE has the armor and backpiece.What are you talking about? Whether or not people like to play certain parts of PvE has nothing to do with my post. When it comes to distinguishing between content then off course it's too vague to be useful. Why do think people say "WvW" and "sPvP" instead of just PvP? Same thing here.

Because one can not only participate in wvw without engaging another player, one can actually contribute to victory conditions in wvw solely by attacking AI, PvE gameplay.

It is one way to contribute to the overall goal, which is to achieve victory over your opponents. It is like killing AI bosses in mobas for gaining a buff for your team. PvE elements, but it doesn't change the objective.And you are competing against other players. You may not engage another player directly but you take a camp, move on, and another player comes along capturing it. He/she leaves, you come back, take it and so on. You are competing for territory.