do not touch axe/pistol

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Lightsbane.9012 said:

it still hits really hard, but it's a shame i can't hit people on walls anymore. 

 

same semtiment.

Its clunkier than it was and it started out clunky, but people are still getting nuked by it so whatever

[Sobx.1758]

12 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

If the intent of the skill was what we arrived at, they should have adjusted the intent of the skill instead of the skill.

No, not really.

12 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

You never heard of bugs turned feature?

Nothing you said pointed at this being the correct step to take here, first it was nothing more than trying to play it off as "the oppressed class" (a true classic across class subforums) by saying it's some "nerf speedrun as usual" and then you made a turn into a vague "don't fix bug, just change the description/intent so I can still have the bug ingame". Without change, for now that doesn't make any sense. It's not a "nerf" of "getting gutted", it's a bug fix.
Which your next post only drives further home (against the point you were attempting to make in your previous ones):

10 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

but people are still getting nuked by it so whatever

From "gutted/so nerfed!" to "well I'm still nuking people so whatever" 😅 

Edited March 16 by Sobx.1758

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

39 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

From "gutted/so nerfed!" to "well I'm still nuking people so whatever" 😅 

Most people don't dodge, whether or not axes are hidden by a wall. It's unpleasant to have my init eaten because I need to have line of sight to people to cast them, but whatever. Its not something I can't adapt to.

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No, not really.

Nothing you said pointed at this being the correct step to take here, first it was nothing more than trying to play it off as "the oppressed class" (a true classic across class subforums) by saying it's some "nerf speedrun as usual" and then you made a turn into a vague "don't fix bug, just change the description/intent so I can still have the bug ingame". Without change, for now that doesn't make any sense. It's not a "nerf" of "getting gutted", it's a bug fix.
Which your next post only drives further home (against the point you were attempting to make in your previous ones):

A bug fix can be a nerf if the bug fix makes the skill less usable. 

The skill is less usable now, I would have preferred the original usability especially since the people having an issue with it still don't avoid the 3 skill.

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nerf speedrun as usual

It is~ Anet tends to quickly rebalance new thief skills. They've done that from daredevil to specter.  Whether or not you have issue with that or the assertion of it is not really anything I'm concerned with. 

Edited March 16 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Sobx.1758]

14 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Most people don't dodge, whether or not axes are hidden by a wall. It's unpleasant to have my init eaten because I need to have line of sight to people to cast them, but whatever. Its not something I can't adapt to.

LOS is a basic requirement for most skills, this is such a weird complaint for me.

15 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

A bug fix can be a nerf if the bug fix makes the skill less usable. 

The skill is less usable now, I would have preferred the original usability especially since the people having an issue with it still don't avoid the 3 skill.

No, a bug fix making the skill work as intended is just a bug fix.

Of course "you would have preferred" the no-range-no-LOS-required version of the skill. You basically simply wouch for the unintended imbalanced versions of the skills because it's about the class you're playing. Again, that's not unique just to this subforum but geee. By the same logic you might say you'd prefer bugged versions of gund in fps games which made them headshot through walls without range limit 100% of the time you press lmb and it's not ok to fix it because "it's a nerf" and they simiply "should have changed their idea about what he weapon does". By screaming how this has been nerfed/gutted, you either didn't understand what actually happened here or you intentionally misrepresent the situation in an attempt to pretend "you" (as in your class) are oppressed/targeted by devs.
Meanwhile, that's just a bugfix and a correct one at that.

20 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

It is

No, it is not, it's a bug fix.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

LOS is a basic requirement for most skills, this is such a weird complaint for me.

You're free to find it weird.

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No, a bug fix making the skill work as intended is just a bug fix.

nerf: informal : to reduce the effectiveness of (something, such as a character, attribute, or weapon) in a video game. 

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Of course "you would have preferred" the no-range-no-LOS-required version of the skill. You basically simply wouch for the unintended imbalanced versions of the skills because it's about the class you're playing. Again, that's not unique just to this subforum but geee. By the same logic you might say you'd prefer bugged versions of gund in fps games which made them headshot through walls without range limit 100% of the time you press lmb and it's not ok to fix it because "it's a nerf" and they simiply "should have changed their idea about what he weapon does". By screaming how this has been nerfed/gutted, you either didn't understand what actually happened here or you intentionally misrepresent the situation in an attempt to pretend "you" (as in your class) are oppressed/targeted by devs.
Meanwhile, that's just a bugfix and a correct one at that.

You're trying really hard to create an argument where I offered none, and tone framing where I offered none. The old way the skill functioned was better. The way the skill functions now is worse. It was already a clunky, time consuming weapon set, and now its clunkier and more time consuming with the addition of some fringe hurdles that make it harder to work with. Labeling it as a bug fix doesn't really change anything about the reality.
I said it was nerfed. Quickly. As is the case with thief skills. I don't know where you're getting all the other building blocks for this argument. The thread's two pages long. 

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No, it is not, it's a bug fix.

See above. This is a weird thing to be so adamant about, when the fact that it is harder to play now is obvious. 

Edited March 16 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[senftube.6081]

5 hours ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

So does willbender and a bunch of other things that hit harder than thief while being as mobile and tanky asf. Just cause you or I don't like something isn't a reason to nerf it tho, and given bound wasn't even the reason axe pistol got changed it's kinda off topic don't you think?

Axe pistol got nerfed/fixed/whatever you want to call it. It was fun while it lasted, they went overboard in fixing it and now it's useless. That's pretty much the end of the thread. 

Bro bounding dodger is the most broken kitten  ever. Even mong vet thief players it is hated as kitten because you have literally perm stealth and you can not interrupt it really. Condi Axe/P thief is literally broken as kitten.

Edited March 16 by senftube.6081

[Sobx.1758]

29 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

You're free to find it weird.

I know. I also know it actually is weird.

29 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

nerf: informal : to reduce the effectiveness of (something, such as a character, attribute, or weapon) in a video game. 

A bug fix is a software update developers make to correct an error (known as a 'bug') causing the software to malfunction
malfunction -to fail to work or operate corrrectly

Do you need an explanation about what "operate correctly" means too? 🤷‍♂️ 

29 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

You're trying really hard to create an argument where I offered none, and tone framing where I offered none. The old way the skill functioned was better. The way the skill functions now is worse. It was already a clunky, time consuming weapon set, and now its clunkier and more time consuming with the addition of some fringe hurdles that make it harder to work with. Labeling it as a bug fix doesn't really change anything about the reality.
I said it was nerfed. Quickly. As is the case with thief skills. I don't know where you're getting all the other building blocks for this argument. The thread's two pages long. 

You're literally just trying to claim you're somehow oppressed based on the class you're playing or that thief has some special "nerf/gutting" position in anet's mind. It doesn't, you're wrong. All they did was fix a bugged skill to work as it was intended to. Your attempted claim about leaving the bug ingame and changing the description instead because it was stronger when bugged so that's why it should remain like that!! makes absolutely no sense.

No, the way it function wasn't "better", it was broken (which is exactly why you're prefering it, similarly like in my example from the previous post, duh). Nobody is "labeling it as bug fix to change the reality", it literally is just a bug fix, your attempts to pretend otherwise are futile and will not change the reality.
And this is worth pointing out considering there were situations where effects were nerfed, but still labeled as "bug fixes" in patch notes. Except in this case that's obviously not what it is.

29 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I said it was nerfed. Quickly. As is the case with thief skills.

And it wasn't nerfed quickly, it was fixed quickly. It being a thief has nothing to do with any of this, your opinion about it is clearly heavily biased.

29 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

See above. This is a weird thing to be so adamant about, when the fact that it is harder to play now is obvious. 

See above, this is a complete nonsense to try playing it off as you're an "oppressed class" (or as if it's some "gutting/nerf speedrun") when all the devs did was fixing an obvious bug. Ridiculous.

Edited March 16 by Sobx.1758

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I know. I also know it actually is weird.

A bug fix is a software update developers make to correct an error (known as a 'bug') causing the software to malfunction
malfunction -to fail to work or operate corrrectly

Do you need an explanation about what "operate correctly" means too? 🤷‍♂️ 

You're literally just trying to claim you're somehow oppressed based on the class you're playing or that thief has some special "nerf/gutting" position in anet's mind. It doesn't, you're wrong. All they did was fix a bugged skill to work as it was intended to. Your attempted claim about leaving the bug ingame and changing the description instead because it was stronger when bugged so that's why it should remain like that!! makes absolutely no sense.

No, the way it function wasn't "better", it was broken (which is exactly why you're prefering it, similarly like in my example from the previous post, duh). Nobody is "labeling it as bug fix to change the reality", it literally is just a bug fix, your attempts to pretend otherwise are futile and will not change the reality.
And this is worth pointing out considering there were situations where effects were nerfed, but still labeled as "bug fixes" in patch notes. Except in this case that's obviously not what it is.

And it wasn't nerfed quickly, it was fixed quickly. It being a thief has nothing to do with any of this, your opinion about it is clearly heavily biased.

See above, this is a complete nonsense to try playing it off as you're an "oppressed class" (or as if it's some "gutting/nerf speedrun") when all the devs did was fixing an obvious bug. Ridiculous.

ok. 

I still prefer it the way it was, compared to how it is now, and find the speed with which it was changed entertaining.  How you're framing that as my claiming the class is oppressed, though, Idunno. Maybe you're bringing some baggage along from another thread?

If the correct functionality of the skill is what it is now, then that's unfortunate. Aggressively and constantly stating "but it was a bug patch" doesn't really change my opinion on that.  I like my skills to feel nice to use. If that required the skill to be in a broken state to achieve, I find that as much an issue as anything. 

Edited March 16 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

2 hours ago, senftube.6081 said:

Bro bounding dodger is the most broken kitten  ever. Even mong vet thief players it is hated as kitten because you have literally perm stealth and you can not interrupt it really. Condi Axe/P thief is literally broken as kitten.

Yeah, I'm not denying any of that. It's just a little off topic when people are discussing how axe pistol 3 needed to be/ended up being changed, since bound wasn't the problem with that. That said, I actually like the interaction it has with sword pistol builds (I might be the only one, I admit) and without redesigning daredevil again I don't see how it would be fixed, as without the leap finisher nobody would take bound outside of PvE. 

[Sobx.1758]

16 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I still prefer it the way it was, compared to how it is now

The only reason you "prefer how it was", was because it was stronger due to a bug which made it not obey its obviously intended normal limitations. Like not going through walls or having range (hence the comparison to "you prefering a bugged weapon in fps that shoots people through walls across the maps").

16 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

How you're framing that as my claiming the class is oppressed, though, Idunno. Maybe you're bringing some baggage along from another thread?

No, all of it is based on your posts in this thread with all these blatantly charged "nerf speedrun as usual" or "Anet tends to quickly rebalance new thief skills.", all of which attempted to put the emphasis on thief being an outlier here. If that's not what you meant there then extremely weird choice of words -repeatedly.
Not sure what "baggage from another thread" I was supposed to be bringing here, should I be remembering something here?

16 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

If the correct functionality of the skill is what it is now

It obviously is and I'm not sure why anyone would think otherwise.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

The only reason you "prefer how it was", was because it was stronger due to a bug which made it not obey its obviously intended normal limitations. Like not going through walls or having range (hence the comparison to "you prefering a bugged weapon in fps that shoots people through walls across the maps").

If the original ship was like a "bugged gun that shoots people through walls across the maps" then the current ship is a gun that jams every so often, considers chairs between you and your target "walls" and refuses to fire, and takes several more seconds than other skills to load. I don't really care about the argument you're making here that I preferred it because it was bugged or broken, the whole point is it feels worse to use and it already had a clunky implementation that was finicky to set up. If Arenanet could make it not bugged or broken -and- preserve the cohesion the kit had, great. But they didn't do that. The way they fixed it was not justified by the way the weapon behaves.

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no, all of it is based on your posts in this thread with all these blatantly charged "nerf speedrun as usual" or "Anet tends to quickly rebalance new thief skills.", all of which attempted to put the emphasis on thief being an outlier here. If that's not what you meant there then extremely weird choice of words -repeatedly.

No,  "thief is oppressed / its balancing direction is an outlier " isn't what I meant. 

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Anet tends to quickly rebalance new thief skills.

This is what I meant. Those are not the same thing. 

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Not sure what "baggage from another thread" I was supposed to be bringing here, should I be remembering something here? https://content.invisioncic.com/a311129/emoticons/blink.png

Idk man, you're extrapolating a lot of conclusions out of my being mildly amused by the speed of a skill change. Thread's still two pages long and somehow we're talking about thief oppression instead of the actual nature of the axe kit. I never said any of what you're claiming as far as that goes.

Let me lay out my argument for you.

• The axe kit for Axe Pistol shipped usably. It was bugged, which led to it being usable. Unfortunate.
• The fix for Axe Pistol introduced several limitations that led to it not working in situations the old functionality would have tolerated, like firing over complex terrain (like stairs) and not consuming your init without firing. 
• The weapon is now worse/more cumbersome to use, whether or not it is considered functioning properly. The weapon is too slow to set up to be pleasant to use in its current state, in competitive modes, in particular.
• The fix that introduced these changes came very shortly after the live release. This is entertaining, because it matches a track record of skills and traits shipping in a usable state for a very brief period, then getting adjusted so aggressively that nobody takes the skill because its use cannot be reasonably justified. 

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It obviously is and I'm not sure why anyone would think otherwise.

Is the fact the skill functions as it was initially planned more important than the weapon feeling good to play? I'd imagine game developers would want to ship weapon kits that work and get chosen by the professions they're built for. 

[Sobx.1758]

On 3/17/2024 at 6:32 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

No,  "thief is oppressed / its balancing direction is an outlier " isn't what I meant. 

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Anet tends to quickly rebalance new thief skills.

This is what I meant. Those are not the same thing. 

Ok, so do you think the thief is somehow an outlier here?
If so, why?
And if not -what's the point of that sentence specifically outlining "thief" getting "quick" rebalance patches? 🤔 

On 3/17/2024 at 6:32 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

The axe kit for Axe Pistol shipped usably. It was bugged, which led to it being usable. Unfortunate.

No. It was bugged which made it abusable.

On 3/17/2024 at 6:32 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

• The weapon is now worse/more cumbersome to use

Of course it's worse, that was never the question here. Following my past comparison from this comment chain: if a weapon is able to shoot through walls and ignores any regular, intended range limitations due to being obviously bugged, then patching it will obviously make it "worse". Which means nothing in regards of you not wanting it changed to obey the usual rules, it still should be fixed. And so it was.

On 3/17/2024 at 6:32 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

• The fix that introduced these changes came very shortly after the live release. This is entertaining, because it matches a track record of skills and traits shipping in a usable state for a very brief period, then getting adjusted so aggressively that nobody takes the skill because its use cannot be reasonably justified. 

Most basically hotixed skills following that "track record" isn't "because they were just usable" and the fact that you don't understand that probably says enough.

Edited March 31 by Sobx.1758

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 3/31/2024 at 3:00 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

Of course it's worse, that was never the question here. Following my past comparison from this comment chain: if a weapon is able to shoot through walls and ignores any regular, intended range limitations due to being obviously bugged, then patching it will obviously make it "worse". Which means nothing in regards of you not wanting it changed to obey the usual rules, it still should be fixed. And so it was.

 

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If the original ship was like a "bugged gun that shoots people through walls across the maps" then the current ship is a gun that jams every so often, considers chairs between you and your target "walls" and refuses to fire, and takes several more seconds than other skills to load. I don't really care about the argument you're making here that I preferred it because it was bugged or broken, the whole point is it feels worse to use and it already had a clunky implementation that was finicky to set up. If Arenanet could make it not bugged or broken -and- preserve the cohesion the kit had, great. But they didn't do that. The way they fixed it was not justified by the way the weapon behaves.

Also that framing is a bit off. It's actually more like a ranged trap  or short duration turret that requires I have line of sight and be standing close to you to activate now, not precisely a gun. Trap weapons often have remote detonators that don't require line of sight or explicit range.   

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Of course it's worse, that was never the question here.

-why- and -how- it should be worse is what I'm arguing. 

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Following my past comparison from this comment chain: if a weapon is able to shoot through walls and ignores any regular, intended range limitations due to being obviously bugged, then patching it will obviously make it "worse". Which means nothing in regards of you not wanting it changed to obey the usual rules, it still should be fixed. And so it was.

Fix it better then. 

If it was intended to have strict range activation and line of sight limitations despite also being a setup weapon that has to set up in a specific area to begin with, the weapon's designed poorly and it should be adjusted. I'm not more concerned with original design vision than I am with the end result of the weapon design, which should both be fair to play against -and- not arbitrarily frustrating to use.

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Ok, so do you think the thief is somehow an outlier here?
If so, why?
And if not -what's the point of that sentence specifically outlining "thief" getting "quick" rebalance patches? 

Anet has a track record of shipping new or reworked weapon designs and traits, panicking when people don't like their implementation, then quickly adjusting them so that they don't have significant effect or have some hurdle that otherwise disables them, sometimes so aggressively that the weapon/trait doesn't get picked up for years. This wasn't a thief exclusive observation.

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Most basically hotixed skills following that "track record" isn't "because they were just usable" and the fact that you don't understand that probably says enough.

That isn't what I said.

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• The axe kit for Axe Pistol shipped usably. It was bugged, which led to it being usable. Unfortunate.

If the intent of the weapon was what it is now, then the design is lacking for competitive. If the weapon had to be bugged to be effective in PvP, then that's unfortunate. 

Edited April 4 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Axl.8924]

On 4/4/2024 at 4:54 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

Also that framing is a bit off. It's actually more like a ranged trap  or short duration turret that requires I have line of sight and be standing close to you to activate now, not precisely a gun. Trap weapons often have remote detonators that don't require line of sight or explicit range.   

-why- and -how- it should be worse is what I'm arguing. 

Fix it better then. 

If it was intended to have strict range activation and line of sight limitations despite also being a setup weapon that has to set up in a specific area to begin with, the weapon's designed poorly and it should be adjusted. I'm not more concerned with original design vision than I am with the end result of the weapon design, which should both be fair to play against -and- not arbitrarily frustrating to use.

Anet has a track record of shipping new or reworked weapon designs and traits, panicking when people don't like their implementation, then quickly adjusting them so that they don't have significant effect or have some hurdle that otherwise disables them, sometimes so aggressively that the weapon/trait doesn't get picked up for years. This wasn't a thief exclusive observation.

That isn't what I said.

If the intent of the weapon was what it is now, then the design is lacking for competitive. If the weapon had to be bugged to be effective in PvP, then that's unfortunate. 

They did that to scourge too nerfed it repeatedly hard but Thief gets a bad rap for nerfs. I remember when dagger used to hurt a lot