3 suggestions for thief axe

[nopoet.2960]

I just think these changes would make it more fun.  Points 2 and 3 will make the skills feel more immediate and less sluggish.

1. Axe one should return on it's own.  It should attack in a straight line and return in a straight path.  This gives you another reason to think about your positioning.  Also, when you use axe 3 you don't really want these anyway.
2. Axe/Dagger 3 is weird.  It's not really an attack on its own.  I propose that that in addition to its current functionality you throw your dagger for damage and shadowstep (see pistol/dagger 3, dagger/pistol 3, shortbow 5). 
3. Axe/pistol 3 should use your pistol.  Similarly to point 2, you shot your target with your pistol that explodes in a shadowy bulls eye.  Axes fly to that target.

[Tharan.9085]

I don't think they will buff A/D in its current state but the other changes all make sense

[Asur.9178]

A/P has more significant problems than just the terrible A/P 3 design (duplicate of A/D, minus the shadowstep). That's ignoring all the problems with axe's functionality in general that  is currently plaguing the weapon.

Pistol offhand on its own is terrible without a great finisher on the MH/3 or a ridiculously strong 3. It's why D/P is godly in design and Sc/P is good, while the rest are just awful: S/P is dead, P/P is a meme, A/P is terrible. It's also why any decent/good thief (myself inclusive) wanted either both a MH and OH or just an OH as a new weapon...not another MH or 2H.

[Jianyu.7065]

2 hours ago, Asur.9178 said:

A/P has more significant problems than just the terrible A/P 3 design (duplicate of A/D, minus the shadowstep). That's ignoring all the problems with axe's functionality in general that  is currently plaguing the weapon.

Pistol offhand on its own is terrible without a great finisher on the MH/3 or a ridiculously strong 3. It's why D/P is godly in design and Sc/P is good, while the rest are just awful: S/P is dead, P/P is a meme, A/P is terrible. It's also why any decent/good thief (myself inclusive) wanted either both a MH and OH or just an OH as a new weapon...not another MH or 2H.

Is there any practical use for A/P. Is it worth using at all in any game mode? I'm interested in your insight. Why is it so terrible. What is it doing wrong. How can it be better. Genuinely interested since I don't know as much or have the extent of knowledge to have a decisive opinion.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

1 hour ago, Jianyu.7065 said:

Is there any practical use for A/P. Is it worth using at all in any game mode? I'm interested in your insight. Why is it so terrible. What is it doing wrong. How can it be better. Genuinely interested since I don't know as much or have the extent of knowledge to have a decisive opinion.

works pretty good a/p with bounding dodge daredevil because of ease of access to stealth attack. if it explodes on hit then gets adjusted to hit in a line and pierce AND would explode would be overpowered xD

[Uhkam.2164]

12 hours ago, Asur.9178 said:

Pistol offhand on its own is terrible without a great finisher on the MH/3 or a ridiculously strong 3. It's why D/P is godly in design and Sc/P is good, while the rest are just awful: S/P is dead, P/P is a meme, A/P is terrible. It's also why any decent/good thief (myself inclusive) wanted either both a MH and OH or just an OH as a new weapon...not another MH or 2H.

I so wish they would be better... I really enjoy P/P and Sw/P myself conceptually, but they just need some more oomph.

[nopoet.2960]

16 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

works pretty good a/p with bounding dodge daredevil because of ease of access to stealth attack. if it explodes on hit then gets adjusted to hit in a line and pierce AND would explode would be overpowered xD

My suggestion is to change the auto not the stealth attack.  The auto would attack in a line and return in the same route.  No change to the stealth attack other than bug fixes.

 

[nopoet.2960]

20 hours ago, Asur.9178 said:

A/P has more significant problems than just the terrible A/P 3 design (duplicate of A/D, minus the shadowstep). That's ignoring all the problems with axe's functionality in general that  is currently plaguing the weapon.

Pistol offhand on its own is terrible without a great finisher on the MH/3 or a ridiculously strong 3. It's why D/P is godly in design and Sc/P is good, while the rest are just awful: S/P is dead, P/P is a meme, A/P is terrible. It's also why any decent/good thief (myself inclusive) wanted either both a MH and OH or just an OH as a new weapon...not another MH or 2H.

My issue with axe 3 is that they aren't really attacks on their own.  Axe 3 has to be "loaded" for it to work. Nothing else works that way.  I'm asking for a minimum damage guarantee when I press 3.    I feel like Anet give us experimental mechanics improves them then gives them to other classes; see tethering and ally targeting. 

For the record, I would have preferred an offhand but that's not what we got.  We must learn and adapt.

[Doggie.3184]

Reduce the sound volume and let Axe 3 hit Siege Weapons would be a start.

Every swing like makes my inner ear vibrate violently. IDK if it's my doge senses or what but it hurts and is louder than anything else in game.

Edited March 2 by Doggie.3184

[Asur.9178]

On 3/1/2024 at 2:32 PM, Jianyu.7065 said:

Is there any practical use for A/P. Is it worth using at all in any game mode? I'm interested in your insight. Why is it so terrible. What is it doing wrong. How can it be better. Genuinely interested since I don't know as much or have the extent of knowledge to have a decisive opinion.

It was decent as a typical niche bound build you see on power D/P or celestial P/P in WvW; but, it was just that...decent. After the bug fix yesterday with the unlimited cast range on A/P 3, it just became significantly worse.

In PvE, A/D is a better power option than A/P. One can argue that A/P gives a slightly higher opening burst in something like power DD, but that's all and it assumes auto attack pre-casting (more on this later).

Axe (by design) is one of those weapon sets that sounds cool in your head and theoretically, until you implement it and start playing with it (that is assuming it's implemented correctly without any bugs). There are multiple reasons why it's just bad:

• You can't cast your autos in any direction to pre-set axes without making sure you always de-target first. So, that means you can't attack behind you, nor can you cast anything until you turn around or de-target first (this is normal projectile cast behaviour). Ie. you can't set-up a burst as you kite unless you are wasting a ton of time targeting and de-targeting, as you attempt to lure the enemy into your set axes' range.
• If an enemy blocks while you have them as target or they simply body block your axe, your axe is not set; it just disappears.
• The set axes must be in range of the enemy you intend to cast A/X 3 on. So, the smart enemy can just kite around all the time to significantly reduce the on coming burst from A/X 3 as that would limit the number of axes that are always in range at any given time.
• Due to axes projectile speed, it is also possible to miss hitting with all the axes if the target is simply moving around a lot, especially with something like superspeed.
• It take forever to build up the "ammunition" for a burst due to the slow auto attacks. Axe 2, with the 3 axes thrown at a time,  is not a damage increase on your A/P burst...it's actually a damage loss. If you accidentally cast Axe 2, you override your auto attacks and they will always take priority over your auto attack axes, which has a better power scaling than your Axe 2. This makes the other point about enemies needing to be in range worse because as long as Axe 2 axes exist on the field, you cannot place any auto attack axes. So, a smart enemy, who understands how this works, will simply put large distance between where an Axe 2 is placed as that locks up 3-6/6 axe placements for you immediately.
• Since the axes track the ground, often times they won't even reach the full distance on highly uneven ground (or on ground where there are usually random obstacles) - especially if it's cast without a target. For those that was around during the first iteration of rifle, this is a similar issue to Cursed Bullet.
• The power scaling on stealth attack on DE doesn't exist. DE malice scales only condi damage. So, it's bad even in PvE, where you would potentially want to use A/P. Here's a giga meme: A/D (from my testing) performs better as a power build than A/P.
• If I include a bug here too, then here's another one: the stealth attack (both versions) still doesn't blast finish - not like that'd matter a whole lot cause the blast finisher will be on the target. Other bugs include things like Shadow Savior not even working with A/D...but, I digress.

All in all, it's just a very bad design, which is made worse by the plethora of issues and bugs that it currently has.

18 hours ago, Uhkam.2164 said:

I so wish they would be better... I really enjoy P/P and Sw/P myself conceptually, but they just need some more oomph.

P/P will be a better version of its meme-self after March balance patch; but, it'll always be a meme and RP build because of its design.

S/P on the other hand is doomed. The only way to salvage S/P is to actually completely change the dual skill. I don't mean tweak numbers or effect, but a complete redesign. As it is currently, it's completely garbage in PvE, WvW, and sPvP...and that's not just a number or effect problem - that's a fundamental design issue.

11 hours ago, nopoet.2960 said:

My issue with axe 3 is that they aren't really attacks on their own.  Axe 3 has to be "loaded" for it to work. Nothing else works that way.  I'm asking for a minimum damage guarantee when I press 3.    I feel like Anet give us experimental mechanics improves them then gives them to other classes; see tethering and ally targeting. 

For the record, I would have preferred an offhand but that's not what we got.  We must learn and adapt.

It's not an issue of just "learning and adapting". Thief has had only 2 offhands for over a decade. Nobody truly enjoys playing with the exact same thing for over a decade; people want changes in the way they play something.

It's the whole reason why people play alts, unless they are fully satisfied with the changes that are implemented to their favourite class; or on a much bigger scale, a completely different game - like myself; I quit this game for over a year...came back only because I saw one out of the three changes I've wanted to see for years coming in March balance patch. So, if I'm not satisfied with March balance patch after its release and axe fails to impress me after the plethora of issues are fixed (if they are fixed), I will quit again until those other two major issues are addressed; and If I happen to completely move on from the game by then because the balance team takes another year/two years to address them, I'm not coming back. For example, when I quit, I still remember them giving lip service about how Specter trade-off will be removed after they toned down Specter in sPvP...well, it's over 1 year and I came back and still see it hasn't been removed and power specter is still bad and S/D is still dead in sPvP after they decided to nerf it at multiple levels (effectiveness and initiative cost increase).

I'm too old and I'm too impatient to continue giving ANet money for working at a sloth's pace. They are not an indie company and they don't have an excuse to leave long standing issues sitting at the back for so long (I'm talking about Trickery and Sword in PvE - the one that they are addressing is Acrobatics). I've supported the game since GW1 beta, and I'm all out of patience with the GW2 balance team when it comes to thief.

So, no, learning and adapting is not a good enough excuse to neglect a class so much.

Edited March 3 by Asur.9178
Grammar and additional info.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

27 minutes ago, Asur.9178 said:

It was decent as a typical niche bound build you see on power D/P or celestial P/P in WvW; but, it was just that...decent. After the bug fix yesterday with the unlimited cast range on A/P 3, it just became significantly worse.

In PvE, A/D is a better power option than A/P. One can argue that A/P gives a slightly higher opening burst in something like power DD, but that's all and it assume auto attack pre-casting (more on this later).

Axe (by design) is one of those weapon sets that sounds cool in your head and theoretically, until you implement it and start playing with it (that is assuming it's implemented correctly without any bugs). There are multiple reasons why it's just bad:

• You can't cast your autos in any direction to pre-set axes without making sure you always de-target first. So, that means you can't attack behind you, nor can you cast anything until you turn around or de-target first (this is normal projectile cast behaviour). Ie. you can't set-up a burst as you kite unless you are wasting a ton of time targeting and de-targeting, as you attempt to lure the enemy into your set axes' range.
• If an enemy blocks while you have them as target or they simply body block your axe, your axe is not set; it just disappears.
• The set axes must be in range of the enemy you intend to cast A/X 3 on. So, the smart enemy can just kite around all the time to significantly reduce the on coming burst from A/X 3 as that would limit the number of axes that are always in range at any given time.
• Due to axes projectile speed, it is also possible to miss hitting with all the axes if the target is simply moving around a lot, especially with something like superspeed.
• It take forever to build up the "ammunition" for a burst due to the slow auto attacks. Axe 2, with the 3 axes thrown at a time,  is not a damage increase on your A/P burst...it's actually a damage loss. If you accidentally cast Axe 2, you override your auto attacks and they will always take priority over your auto attack axes, which has a better power scaling than your Axe 2.
• Since the axes track the ground, often times they won't even reach the full distance on highly uneven ground (or on ground where there are usually random obstacles) - especially if it's cast without a target. For those that was around during the first iteration of rifle, this is a similar issue to Cursed Bullet.
• The power scaling on stealth attack on DE doesn't exist. DE malice scales only condi damage. So, it's bad even in PvE, where you would potentially want to use A/P. Here's a giga meme: A/D (from my testing) performs better as power build than A/P.
• If I include a bug here too, then here's another one: the stealth attack (both versions) still doesn't blast finish - not like that'd matter a whole lot cause the blast finisher will be on the target. Other bugs include things like Shadow Savior not even working with A/D...but, I digress.

All in all, it's just a very bad design, which is made worse by the plethora of issues and bugs that it currently has.

P/P will be a better version of its meme-self after March balance patch; but, it'll always be a meme and RP build because of its design.

S/P on the other hand is doomed. The only way to salvage S/P is to actually completely change the dual skill. I don't mean tweak numbers or effect, but a complete redesign. As it is currently, it's completely garbage in PvE, WvW, and sPvP...and that's not just a number or effect problem - that's a fundamental design issue.

It's not an issue of just "learning and adapting". Thief has had only 2 offhands for over a decade. Nobody truly enjoys playing with the exact same thing for over a decade; people want changes in the way they play something.

It's the whole reason why people play alts, unless they are fully satisfied with the changes that are implemented to their favourite class; or on a much bigger scale, a completely different game - like myself; I quit this game for over a year...came back only because I saw one out of the three changes I've wanted to see for years coming in March balance patch. So, if I'm not satisfied with March balance patch after its release and axe fails to impress me after the plethora of issues are fixed (if they are fixed), I will quit again until those other two major issues are addressed; and If I happen to completely move on from the game by then because the balance team takes another year/two years to address them, I'm not coming back. For example, when I quit, I still remember them giving lip service about how Specter trade-off will be removed after they toned down Specter in sPvP...well, it's over 1 year and I came back and still see it hasn't been removed and power specter is still bad and S/D is still dead in sPvP after they decided to nerf it at multiple levels (effectiveness and initiative cost increase).

I'm too old and I'm too impatient to continue giving ANet money for working at a sloth's pace. They are not an indie company and they don't have an excuse to leave long standing issues sitting at the back for so long (I'm talking about Trickery and Sword in PvE - the one that they are addressing is Acrobatics). I've supported the game since GW1 beta, and I'm all out of patience with the GW2 balance team when it comes to thief.

So, no, learning and adapting is not a good enough excuse to neglect a class so much.

find my malicious axe rending shade among other bugs thread and paste it there. ill update my main post.. A/P and A/D on deadeye confirmed, even in tooltip, this isnt a blast finisher, which is a bummer. in zerg fights you HAVE to have basilisk venom for at least your stealth attack axes to even make a difference, so much projectile hate but not enough to counter projectile hate...not to mention the unrelated GREEN EYE SORE that is siege turtle skill on ranger. i cant tell even with mesmer feedback or other reflect area denials if its ally or enemy!