Thief in WvW Zerg

[Snow.6105]

Hello! I am the kind of person who truly likes "maining" one class, but one thing that has always held me back is how often I hear that thief is better as a roamer and not in WvW zerg.

I really enjoy zerging with guilds in WvW but not being able to play thief has made me not enjoy it as much as I wish I could. Is there any viable/good builds thief can run in a WvW zerg setting? I really had hope that specter could be that spec for thief but it really seems to only good in small groups because of the heals working the way they do.

Thanks!

[kash.9213]

Specter is great in zergs and blob fights. That's my daily vibe. I also liked Deadeye rifle in large fights. It was sort of self sustainable and having the leap finisher and Death's Retreat animation itself was great. Even core, like S/D or something, with shortbow kept handy was a lot of fun. 

There's some residual to other players around your target on both offensive and defensive version of Scepter skills, and the healing from traits hits a radius also. Between movement skills and utilities like Wells, you're more about being a Fixer-Upper than a dedicated squad healer but the healing is no slouch if you build for it. 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

6 minutes ago, Snow.6105 said:

Hello! I am the kind of person who truly likes "maining" one class, but one thing that has always held me back is how often I hear that thief is better as a roamer and not in WvW zerg.

I really enjoy zerging with guilds in WvW but not being able to play thief has made me not enjoy it as much as I wish I could. Is there any viable/good builds thief can run in a WvW zerg setting? I really had hope that specter could be that spec for thief but it really seems to only good in small groups because of the heals working the way they do.

Thanks!

boy oh boy. this schpeel again...first and foremost dont believe what others tell you, if you manage to find something that works for you within a zerg/allied wvw squad then it works, share your findings as this isnt a topic that gets discussed as often as it used to years ago...people just stuck with what they were told.

check my #thief section here on the forums and find "The Juicer" its a build i designed to keep you sustained in the fight, protect the commander/another target while simultaneously being able to take other enemies to keep bag flow, you give everyone around him very high barrier, high tick regen, protection, quickness and your wells and siphoned target(commander) will get boons you give via shroud, which also doubles as blast finishers for your offhand in protecting downs/the commander. Mind you i am a specter in this build. there are many new adaptations you have to account for to fully yield what it offers.

axe right now, however, is not worth it with the jankiness and projectile hate going on in wvw unless someone is giving you constant unblockable so you can land your hits.

check my signature bud. we pretty much are the dominant force in #thief regarding feedback along with snowcrows and other community infamous thieves!

 

[Snow.6105]

13 minutes ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

boy oh boy. this schpeel again...first and foremost dont believe what others tell you, if you manage to find something that works for you within a zerg/allied wvw squad then it works, share your findings as this isnt a topic that gets discussed as often as it used to years ago...people just stuck with what they were told.

check my #thief section here on the forums and find "The Juicer" its a build i designed to keep you sustained in the fight, protect the commander/another target while simultaneously being able to take other enemies to keep bag flow, you give everyone around him very high barrier, high tick regen, protection, quickness and your wells and siphoned target(commander) will get boons you give via shroud, which also doubles as blast finishers for your offhand in protecting downs/the commander. Mind you i am a specter in this build. there are many new adaptations you have to account for to fully yield what it offers.

axe right now, however, is not worth it with the jankiness and projectile hate going on in wvw unless someone is giving you constant unblockable so you can land your hits.

check my signature bud. we pretty much are the dominant force in #thief regarding feedback along with snowcrows and other community infamous thieves!

 

Thank you so much! Yeah I am definitely not knowledgeable in knowing if something is viable/not viable so hearing this definitely made me happy! I'll look at the build you mentioned as well as just trying my own stuff to figure out what works.

I also just got told by someone that thief rifle will pierce as well soon so that might also help in zerg? that would be nice!

Thank you for your response, I actually appreciate all the info and i'll definitely join the discord.

[Snow.6105]

17 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

Specter is great in zergs and blob fights. That's my daily vibe. I also liked Deadeye rifle in large fights. It was sort of self sustainable and having the leap finisher and Death's Retreat animation itself was great. Even core, like S/D or something, with shortbow kept handy was a lot of fun. 

There's some residual to other players around your target on both offensive and defensive version of Scepter skills, and the healing from traits hits a radius also. Between movement skills and utilities like Wells, you're more about being a Fixer-Upper than a dedicated squad healer but the healing is no slouch if you build for it. 

Ok! that gives me hope for sure, I appreciate your response! I'll have to come at specter with the mindset of being a fixer-upper like you said, will be a new playstyle for me. 🙂

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

1 minute ago, Snow.6105 said:

Thank you so much! Yeah I am definitely not knowledgeable in knowing if something is viable/not viable so hearing this definitely made me happy! I'll look at the build you mentioned as well as just trying my own stuff to figure out what works.

I also just got told by someone that thief rifle will pierce as well soon so that might also help in zerg? that would be nice!

Thank you for your response, I actually appreciate all the info and i'll definitely join the discord.

yeah definitely but you have to time the shots you make on whether you are gonna get hit. if you play it right you save initiative in kneel and only use it for big (expletively) dmg. otherwise you can use Bountiful Theft in the trickery line in conjunction with Mercy and keep stability off of targets you Mark, if you time it right they will melt when they clash with another group. i even have a condi rifle deadeye xD 

[Palikka.8249]

I have found that usually specc wont fix bad gameplay (except cele harb). I have been playing scepter in zergs and its totally fine, also staff daredevil does nice damage if you are interested in vaulting.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

IMO Specter is the closest thing you will get to being viable in zergs (though I am pretty biased as it's my fav elite spec). But I think when talking about viability it's important to be clear and realistic that although it is viable, it still cannot replace the primary support role of stab-bot or the secondary support role of cleanser. You do provide stab and you do cleanse, but it is not frequent or reliable enough (both stab sources have a cast time with no group stunbreak component; cleanses are too conditional). With that said, you do provide a LOT of barrier/healing, quickness, and pretty decent uptime on resistance. You also have a gravity well copycat skill (much riskier to use mind you) and some other nice boons (regen, vigor, prot, fury). Like, it's not bad at all and does very well at things like countering pin-sniping. I think it does have value in large-scale, but to what degree I think can be up for debate. With other supports getting nerfed, i think it helps Specter's optics. I myself am a huge WvW player, but I am not big on organized large-scale fights, so I try not to pretend I know everything about that playstyle. If you are on NA I would suggest reaching out to BANE (Nightmare's Bane is the actual guild name I think? Not sure what server they are on). To my knowledge they are the only large-scale guild that regularly incorporates multiple Specters in their groups. I see Specters in other groups on occasion, but I think BANE comps and strategizes around having multiple.

Edited March 14 by Za Shaloc.3908

[Eugenides.1274]

It applies outside of WvW as well but using a few additional keybinds can help make specter support feel more fluid. None of them are set by default so you have to go into your settings and set them yourself.

• Set Personal Target & Take Personal Target: This lets you set a target that won't be overwritten by target calls in your subgroup. This is useful to put on high value damage dealers/frontliners that you want to focus with your sc/p barriers/prot/quickness.
• Nearest Ally / Next Ally / Previous Ally: I only personally use Nearest Ally because in a zerg the next/previous options get somewhat unwieldy. There are times where you just want to use your targeted skills regardless of the target and using these keybinds can help.
• Toggle Ally Targeting Mode: If you ONLY want to focus on healing and will never want to use your skills on an enemy. I don't personally use it but it's up to your personal taste. This will allow you to guarantee that you're clicking an ally and don't missclick an enemy in a close quarters fight.

It's really up to personal preference if you feel like the keybinds help or not but they're worth playing around with a bit. I think everyone (especially thieves) should bind personal target since it allows you to plan escape routes/jukes (targets for s2/steal/infiltrator's signet/etc) while not interfering with party targets.

Edited March 14 by Eugenides.1274

[godofcows.2451]

Imo you have spectre and venom deadeye as something that can work in zergs. They're not popular in the zerg community but they're very effective with someone who knows how to handle them. I also do believe some guilds still use one or two staff builds here and there. 

[AlphaReborn.1567]

The main problem Thief has in zergs is what it brings to the table might not be bad, but other classes do the same but better. The two main builds I’ve found for Thief are Staff Daredevil for DPS or Heal/Barrier Specter… Both are outright inferior to the meta alternatives, and most serious groups won’t give you the time of day, or will stick you in a subgroup with other randoms and you’ll get no stability and low priority on heals… So you’ll go down fast. 
 

In pug groups I really struggled to use heal Specter as it kinda demands coordinated/tight movement, so you are pretty limited to DPS Staff which does alright, but never feels as useful as other DPS options… And when it runs out of juice you bring literally nothing to a fight, whereas other classes can enter a CC/boon share/etc rotation until the DPS skills come back online.

Roaming is of course a different story, with a multitude of solid builds… Unfortunately not too many translate to Zerg play, though I have a ton of fun picking tails of groups with DP Daredevil or Rifle Deadeye, which is another option if you want to be an “outsider” but still contribute. Don’t underestimate this, especially in pug groups vs pug groups. Lots of opportunity and lack of discipline; I’ve completely swung fights by getting a couple downs and half the Zerg peels to revive, allowing my side to break through and snowball the rest.

[kash.9213]

35 minutes ago, AlphaReborn.1567 said:

The main problem Thief has in zergs is what it brings to the table might not be bad, but other classes do the same but better. The two main builds I’ve found for Thief are Staff Daredevil for DPS or Heal/Barrier Specter… Both are outright inferior to the meta alternatives, and most serious groups won’t give you the time of day, or will stick you in a subgroup with other randoms and you’ll get no stability and low priority on heals… So you’ll go down fast. 
 

In pug groups I really struggled to use heal Specter as it kinda demands coordinated/tight movement, so you are pretty limited to DPS Staff which does alright, but never feels as useful as other DPS options… And when it runs out of juice you bring literally nothing to a fight, whereas other classes can enter a CC/boon share/etc rotation until the DPS skills come back online.

Roaming is of course a different story, with a multitude of solid builds… Unfortunately not too many translate to Zerg play, though I have a ton of fun picking tails of groups with DP Daredevil or Rifle Deadeye, which is another option if you want to be an “outsider” but still contribute. Don’t underestimate this, especially in pug groups vs pug groups. Lots of opportunity and lack of discipline; I’ve completely swung fights by getting a couple downs and half the Zerg peels to revive, allowing my side to break through and snowball the rest.

I know the super serious guilds would want you on healing stats probably but I switch to my raid baseline condi temlate most of the time with reduce healing Relic and Shadestep for clutch Protection. Sometimes the heal heavy template just prolongs the inevitable while the condi template can start opening things up. That along with staying in close movement with your team might hinge on being able to pick targets quickly with mouse unless you have a really intuitive keybind layout. I don't have a problem with that, but they should have made a more fluid target selection system for Specter for people in general. 

[AlphaReborn.1567]

30 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

I know the super serious guilds would want you on healing stats probably but I switch to my raid baseline condi temlate most of the time with reduce healing Relic and Shadestep for clutch Protection. Sometimes the heal heavy template just prolongs the inevitable while the condi template can start opening things up. That along with staying in close movement with your team might hinge on being able to pick targets quickly with mouse unless you have a really intuitive keybind layout. I don't have a problem with that, but they should have made a more fluid target selection system for Specter for people in general. 

Unfortunately the super serious guilds won’t want you on Thief at all, which really sucks. You can definitely still get to play in public/open tag groups, and may get lucky enough to get put in a group with stability, but it’s never really been as good of an experience as it’s been with the other meta classes.

As I said I do have a blast joining Discords as a pseudo roamer and trying to float around the blobs and get picks. I also serve as a bit of a scout for the commander and let them know where the enemy groups are moving without fear of getting screamed at to stay on tag. Its definitely a lot of fun.

[kash.9213]

Just now, AlphaReborn.1567 said:

Unfortunately the super serious guilds won’t want you on Thief at all, which really sucks. You can definitely still get to play in public/open tag groups, and may get lucky enough to get put in a group with stability, but it’s never really been as good of an experience as it’s been with the other meta classes.

As I said I do have a blast joining Discords as a pseudo roamer and trying to float around the blobs and get picks. I also serve as a bit of a scout for the commander and let them know where the enemy groups are moving without fear of getting screamed at to stay on tag. Its definitely a lot of fun.

Those super serious guilds are also fragile af and aren't very elastic. You'll get more done with a solid open tag anyway. You also don't need to be in squad to cover them. Just make sure not to mess up their blasts too much. When they know you as someone who keeps them from dying a lot then the invites pop up more. 

[roamzero.9486]

Remove the blast finisher on Cunning Salvo and make it unable to be reflected/destroyed and suddenly you have your meta zerg thief (when used with rending shade)

[Szymon.5369]

3 hours ago, roamzero.9486 said:

Remove the blast finisher on Cunning Salvo and make it unable to be reflected/destroyed and suddenly you have your meta zerg thief (when used with rending shade)

That would be neat, but let's be real, unblockable stealth attacks are probably a thing that's explicitly written on a whiteboard somewhere under "things that can never happen", together with warrior teleports.

[roamzero.9486]

Quote

That would be neat, but let's be real, unblockable stealth attacks are probably a thing that's explicitly written on a whiteboard somewhere under "things that can never happen", together with warrior teleports.

True, but I actually think it would be healthy for the game if projectiles could have a separate buff that could possibly be applied from unblockable. Still blockable with aegis and abilities like warrior's shield, but unable to be destroyed or reflected by auras/bubbles/ranger staff/etc with the buff.

Edited March 19 by roamzero.9486

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

7 hours ago, Szymon.5369 said:

That would be neat, but let's be real, unblockable stealth attacks are probably a thing that's explicitly written on a whiteboard somewhere under "things that can never happen", together with warrior teleports.

We had that once in cursed bullet, if I remember right. Might not remember right.