Why are +5 stat agony infusions so dispraportionetly expensive.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

4 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Fractals so p2w because I don't have something! 😠 I repeatedly admit that I could get it, but I don't want to, so unfair!

Dude. Still not sure where's that p2w you're speaking of.

Of course not, because -as I already repeatedly said- it's not needed (and doesn't really matter) for anything in fractals. It might be a foreign concept for you, but I actually mean what I'm saying.

yah well nothing in the game is needed you can take off half your armor and play with half stats and probably win and then exclaim the same thing.  I dont see the point of that.  Wanting to min/max your character is a normal thing in an mmo which i guess you dont do lol, especially if you play competitively as in speed clears or you just want to be a normal veteran and get through the content as fast as possible.  Saying its not needed is a joke argument. I mean you could play blindfolded and say eyes arent needed to play.  Maybe thats the true way of doing lol.  these arguments from you are absurd

Edited March 22 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108

[Sobx.1758]

1 minute ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

yah well nothing in the game is needed you can take off half your armor and play with half stats and probably win and then exclaim the same thing.

Cool, what point are you attempting to build with this? That you agree with me? Great.

1 minute ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

Wanting to min/max your character is a normal thing in an mmo

Then do it. But if the only reason you claim "you can't do it" is "because you have to spend gold that you make plenty of in fractals" then it's a "you" problem and not game's/anyone else's problem.

Edited March 22 by Sobx.1758

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

Just now, Sobx.1758 said:

Cool, what point are you attempting to build with this? That you agree with me? Great.

that i agreee that infusions arent necessary uh yah you're right nothing in the game is necessary to "play" the game however you define it.  that wasnt the point of my thread, the thread is why is this disproportionately more expensive than other infusions that do the same exact thing.

[Sobx.1758]

Just now, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

that i agreee that infusions arent necessary uh yah you're right

Glad you understand that. If you want to "max out stats for the sake of maxing out, even though it doesn't matter" then do it. If you don't want to then don't, but at the same time stop pretending it "exlucdes" anyone, "makes people not do well" or that it's "p2w". Because none of those things is true.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Glad you understand that. If you want to "max out stats for the sake of maxing out, even though it doesn't matter" then do it. If you don't want to then don't, but at the same time stop pretending it "exlucdes" anyone, "makes people not do well" or that it's "p2w". Because none of those things is true.

oh right you try to join a speed clear or a CM group with Half stats lol. i mean i guess youre playing "your way" then.  ANd also good luck joining any of those without + stat infusions so YES it is exclusionary and at higher levels of speed clearing good luck joining without fractal god lol.

Edited March 22 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108

[Sobx.1758]

2 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

oh right you try to join a speed clear or a CM group with Half stats lol. i mean i guess youre playing "your way" then.  ANd also good luck joining any of those without + stat infusions so YES it is exclusionary.

Nobody "tries to join speed clear with half stats" and not having stat infusions isn't anywhere near that, nor does it somehow not allow you to "speed clear". Another ""argument"" that's either intentionally dishonest or comes from your lack of understanding what you're talking about. Which one is it?

No, nobody checks whether or not you have stat infusions, nobody is "excluded" because of them. Stop making this nonsense up. (and still not sure where that fractal "p2w" is)

Edited March 22 by Sobx.1758

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

4 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Nobody "tries to join speed clear with half stats" and not having stat infusions isn't anywhere near that, nor does it somehow not allow you to "speed clear". Another ""argument"" that's either intentionally dishonest or comes from your lack of understanding what you're talking about. Which one is it?

No, nobody checks whether or not you have stat infusions, nobody is "excluded" because of them. Stop making this nonsense up.

ok well ANY POWER creep that is hard to obtain is by nature exclusionary.  You can argue its not needed but that entire train of logic of "oh i have HIGHER STATS then a normal player im a veteran/rich player and a normal player says ok i want that too, and then its difficult to obtain in any way IS EXCLUSIONARY" and is a really slippery slope in terms of an mmo.  It reeks of things like elitism and pay to win and its a fine line.  I think anet should avoid this at all cost, and make things like stat gain static, balanced, equal and easy to obtain in all game modes if they are going to do it this way.

 

if i wanted to play a game with power creep on gear id play ffxiv or wow. (which i have and i dont want to anymore because of garbage like that, because it gets old) and i play gw2 instead because their promise to us is that they DONT do that, and yet here it is in some form

Edited March 22 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108

[Sobx.1758]

13 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

ok well ANY POWER creep that is hard to obtain is by nature exclusionary.  You can argue its not needed but that entire train of logic of "oh i have HIGHER STATS then a normal player im a veteran/rich and a normal player says ok i want that too, and then its difficult to obtain in any way IS EXCLUSIONARY" and is a really slippery slope in terms of an mmo.  It reeks of things like elitism and pay to win and its a fine line.  I think anet should avoid this at all cost, and make things like stat gain static, balanced, equal and easy to obtain in all game modes

You said you're playing since 2013 (and you can buy those infusions if you wanted to, as well I think?), your time to complain about "power creep in form of stat infusions" is long gone.
Which, of course, doesn't mean they can't change anything about the system, but attempting to use it for your repeated "I WANNA!" complaint in this thread makes as much sense as your attempts to say "lack of stat infusions makes it hard to do well", "lack of stat infusions excludes some of the players" or that "fractal infusions are p2w". So none.

Stop using especs and "new" attribute combinations in your gear, it's power creep btw.

Edited March 22 by Sobx.1758

[Passerbye.6291]

For anyone else who ends up reading this clown fiesta of a thread, I often end up being top dps in fractals, namely CMs and T4s, on my boon chrono, which is supposed to do about 20-30% less damage than dedicated dps builds. I don't even play it perfectly btw, I even use a slightly different skill setup than the one with highest dps. What this means is, if you don't have stat infusions, and you get kicked from your group, it is much more likely to have happened because you are not at the skill level your temmates would like you to be or you simply don't know the mechanics to the fights and cause your teammates headaches than to be because you are missing about 2% damage from not having stat infusions. 

For reference, unlocking fractal god title gives you 7% outgoing damage in fractals permanently and I have never been kicked from a CM or T4 group for not having it, which is a much bigger loss of damage than anything infusions bring to the table. 

In addition to all this, there is no way of knowing whether someone has stat infusions in this game, so if you end up doing exactly 2% less damage than someone expected you to do, they don't know whether that's because you don't have stat infusions or you just played 2% worse.

Also, imagine calling a horizontal progression game pay to win because you can't even be bothered to horizontally progress over the course of 11 years.

Finally, while this thread might look like an utter waste of time since the OP couldn't even bother to do basic math before repeatedly making false claims, it actually serves a very nice purpose in teaching the rest of us not to make such threads without actually doing the math on things to make sure we don't embarrass ourselves in a similar fashion.

For anyone who fails to receive said teaching, I recommend making a post about how commander tag and griffon mount are pay to win next, been a while since the last thread about them.

Edited March 23 by Passerbye.6291

[Linken.6345]

11 hours ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

oh so your saying i should pay for max stats which are reasonably acquired in all other game modes snip

 

Yes that is exactly what everyone are saying guess what its what others who have maxed stats for fractals had to do also.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

11 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

Yes that is exactly what everyone are saying guess what its what others who have maxed stats for fractals had to do also.

yah sure id be glad too, once they drop the cost of stabilizing matrix from 40s a piece to around 1s or less a piece.  They can do this by increasing the drop rate or adding new sources.  Or they can just make a straight exchange like 1 fractal relic for 1 stabilizing matrix from the merchant.  SO that its basically inline with the difficulty of acquiring wvw infusions.

 

IM all for veteran players or rich players receiving more rewards compared to normal players (new skins, more convenience items, gold etc.), but im not ok with veteran or rich players having higher stats than me in a horizontal progression game, because they paid for it or have been playing longer.

 

likewise fractal god should not give more dps i feel like this was extremely short sided and they should adjust the buff to do something other than give more stats.

 

i also love how everyones argument on here basically amounts to justifying that vertical progression is the reward of doing fractals in a horizontal progression game.  Its ridiculous.

Edited March 23 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108

[Sobx.1758]

41 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

yah sure id be glad too, once they drop the cost of stabilizing matrix from 40s a piece to around 1s or less a piece.  They can do this by increasing the drop rate or adding new sources.  Or they can just make a straight exchange like 1 fractal relic for 1 stabilizing matrix from the merchant.  SO that its basically inline with the difficulty of acquiring wvw infusions.

They could [anything], but the point remains there's no need for them to. And these infusions don't do the same things, not sure why they should be equalized in cost. (other than you just wanting things to be cheaper/easier to get, because apparently fractals aren't profitable enough? 🤔)

41 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

IM all for veteran players or rich players receiving more rewards compared to normal players (new skins, more convenience items, gold etc.), but im not ok with veteran or rich players having higher stats than me in a horizontal progression game, because they paid for it or have been playing longer.

It's ridiculous how you're trying to pose it as if you're attempting to "care for new players". You are the veteran player, you could buy those infusions and you simply don't want to because you'd rather spend earned gold and resources on something else. It's not "your caring for new/normal(?) players", it's you consistently trying to dress your selfish "I WANNA!" request as something else.
Meanwhile actual new players learn fractals and clear them, first without and then with regular infusions.

41 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

i also love how everyones argument on here basically amounts to justifying that vertical progression is the reward of doing fractals in a horizontal progression game.  Its ridiculous.

I, on the other hand, "love" how misguided and dishonest your argumentation attempts are. First claiming it has anything to do with "exclusion" (and again: it doesn't, nobody checks for stat infusions); drawing it as a reason that makes it harder to "do well" (it doesn't, pve/fractals isn't balanced around having stat infusions, anyone "not doing well" has other problems within the content), then being "p2w" (????) and now "think about new players, it's unfair that veterans can have it!" while... you're literally the veteran who could buy them but in the end knows how unimpactful they are, so you'd rather spend what you earn on something else. Sorry, but doubt you're fooling anyone here.

Edited March 23 by Sobx.1758

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

They could [anything], but the point remains there's no need for them to. And these infusions don't do the same things, not sure why they should be equalized in cost. (other than you just wanting things to be cheaper/easier to get, because apparently fractals aren't profitable enough? 🤔)

It's ridiculous how you're trying to pose it as if you're attempting to "care for new players". You are the veteran player, you could buy those infusions and you simply don't want to because you'd rather spend earned gold and resources on something else. It's not "your caring for new/normal(?) players", it's you consistently trying to dress your selfish "I WANNA!" request as something else.
Meanwhile actual new players learn fractals and clear them, first without and then with regular infusions.

I, on the other hand, "love" how misguided and dishonest your argumentation attempts are. First claiming it has anything to do with "exclusion" (and again: it doesn't, nobody checks for stat infusions); drawing it as a reason that makes it harder to "do well" (it doesn't, pve/fractals isn't balanced around having stat infusions, anyone "not doing well" has other problems within the content), then being "p2w" (????) and now "think about new players, it's unfair that veterans can have it!" while... you're literally the veteran who could buy them but in the end knows how unimpactful they are, so you'd rather spend what you earn on something else. Sorry, but doubt you're fooling anyone here.

i dont believe in paying for vertical progression in a horizontal progression game.  They should remove ascended, infusions with stats, and titles that give + dmg.  I know its late for them to change this but they should balance this as much as they can, as balanced and equal stats, especially on gear is a core value of the game.  In order to make it equal they should make it inline with similar items that already do the same thing, such as wvw infusions.  This means lowering the cost of stabilizing matrixes or I suppose they could just give the infusions out in some other manner. 

but yes im a vet, i could pay for it, i could afford it, i could grind the CM's but thats not the point of the change that im asking for.  So you guys can stop with that now.  Youd think as vets yourself (supposedly) you would want cheaper access to max stats for alts but for some reason you're all VERY against this for some reason nobody will answer why.  Is it because it infringes on the hard work you already did to get them?  Or like you feel that theres nothing to work towards if they're given out easily?

Not sure why you guys care to keep it as is.

Edited March 24 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108

[Sobx.1758]

44 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

i dont believe in paying for vertical progression in a horizontal progression game.

And yet you paid for ascended gear, whatever currency you were using. I wonder if you think when people say "pay", you think they're telling you to pay money instead of, you know, paying gold? Is this the spin you're going for here? Because any time I say "you can buy it if you want to", I mean the ingame currencies you normally get by playing the game.

44 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

I know its late for them to change this

Good.

44 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

In order to make it equal they should make it inline with similar items that already do the same thing, such as wvw infusions. 

wvw infusions don't do the same thing. If you really believe they are the same and they're cheaper then just buy those. 🤔 

44 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

but yes im a vet, i could pay for it, i could afford it, i could grind the CM's but thats not the point of the change that im asking for.

What do you mean "that's not the point of the change you're asking for"? All of the reasoning you gave in this thread is either dishonest (for example where it's totally not about you, but about new players) or simply wrong (do you need the list again?), while it's simply your refusal to use currency you get in fractals for fractal-related infusions. You keep choosing to spend the gold and materials you get there for something else, so that's on you.

44 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

Youd think as vets yourself (supposedly) you would want cheaper access to max stats for alts but for some reason you're all VERY against this for some reason nobody will answer why. 

😂 What do you mean "nobody will answer why"? Did you read my (and others') posts? What a terrible "gotcha" attempt. I'm not hiding anything, I believe what I'm saying and I'm fine with the current state exactly because fractals aren't balanced around stat infusions. If I don't want to buy them then I simply don't and I'm still perfectly fine, nobody checks stat infusions, they're not anywhere close to being needed to "do well", nobody is getting "excluded" when they're not slotting stat infusions in fractals and nothing about them is "pw2" because if I'm not slotting stat infusions and someone else is... we're winning the co-op mode together. Which part of that do you still not understand? Which part of that was "not answering why"? 🤦‍♂️ 

Edited March 24 by Sobx.1758

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

And yet you paid for ascended gear, whatever currency you were using. I wonder if you think when people say "pay", you think they're telling you to pay money instead of, you know, paying gold? Is this the spin you're going for here? Because any time I say "you can buy it if you want to", I mean the ingame currencies you normally get by playing the game.

Good.

wvw infusions don't do the same thing. If you really believe they are the same and they're cheaper then just buy those. 🤔 

What do you mean "that's not the point of the change you're asking for"? All of the reasoning you gave in this thread is either dishonest (for example where it's totally not about you, but about new players) or simply wrong (do you need the list again?), while it's simply your refusal to use currency you get in fractals for fractal-related infusions. You keep choosing to spend the gold and materials you get there for something else, so that's on you.

😂 What do you mean "nobody will answer why"? Did you read my (and others') posts? What a terrible "gotcha" attempt. I'm not hiding anything, I believe what I'm saying and I'm fine with the current state exactly because fractals aren't balanced around stat infusions. If I don't want to buy them then I simply don't and I'm still perfectly fine, nobody checks stat infusions, they're not anywhere close to being needed to "do well", nobody is getting "excluded" when they're not slotting stat infusions in fractals and nothing about them is "pw2" because if I'm not slotting stat infusions and someone else is... we're winning the co-op mode together. Which part of that do you still not understand? Which part of that was "not answering why"? 🤦‍♂️ 

you realize ascended gear costs like 1/10th of what agony + stat infusions cost right lol.

wvw infusions do the same thing as agony infusions its just you cant use them in fractals but you can for all other content, and vice versa, you can use agony infusions in all content but wvw, where you could use them but it would be better to use wvw infusions to dps npc's.  SO essentially its all the same thing, except for agony infusions which you specifically need for fractals.  the fact that you NEED them for fractals is even more reason they should be cheap and accessible to everyone.

The point of the thread is to make agony infusions IN LINE, COST WISE with other infusions that ESSENTIALLY do the same thing which would be wvw infusions.  It has nothing to do with my ability to purchase them today as is.

so everything you just said as to why you dont want to change them is not a reason.  Its literally not a valid reason why you dont want it changed.  So you're basically saying you like the way the power creep is now, you like that its absurdly expensive, nobody knows if you have it so it should remain absurdley expensive and the power creep thats hard to obtain and is exclusionary and not accessible to most players is fine.

thats not a reason lol.  Its also ridiculous.  Sorry i want max stats that are CHEAP and EASILY accessible.  NOW if you want to lavish veteran players with more fractal relics or, gold or spirit shards, or even legendaries, i dont care, sounds great, seems fine and id work towards it too.  BUT STATS!?  NO.... thats ridiculous.  IT completely ruins the speed running in this game for fractals as an example, YOU cant even remotely hope to compete with fractal speed clears without god of fractals and even worse the infusions are HARD TO OBTAIN because they cost 1250g to gear out ONE CHARACTER or requires grinding CM's for MONTHS.

I guess you enjoy waiting months of grinding CM's just to gear out a new build or paying 1250g + fractal relics to play on an alt and to play with a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD vs ALL OTHER PLAYERS LIKE A HORIZONTAL PROGRESSION GAME SHOULD BE PLAYED  lol.  THis is ridiculous.

  ITS ABSURD, if you want verticle progression and having to "PAY" to get maximum stats you should play wow or ffxiv and not gw2.

 

 

Edited March 24 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108

[Linken.6345]

So how do you think this cheapening of stat ar infusion would shake up (if not even invalidate) the natural climbing from t1-t4 newbies do while getting all those +1 ar infusions as rewards they can use to craft their normal +2-9 ar infusions?

You also can get stat +9 infusions outside of fractals so maybe start raid and strike clearing, probabely have to pay for a ht cm kill to start buying those if you have trouble with fractals tho

[Passerbye.6291]

6 hours ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

you realize ascended gear costs like 1/10th of what agony + stat infusions cost right lol.

wvw infusions do the same thing as agony infusions its just you cant use them in fractals but you can for all other content, and vice versa, you can use agony infusions in all content but wvw, where you could use them but it would be better to use wvw infusions to dps npc's.  SO essentially its all the same thing, except for agony infusions which you specifically need for fractals.  the fact that you NEED them for fractals is even more reason they should be cheap and accessible to everyone.

The point of the thread is to make agony infusions IN LINE, COST WISE with other infusions that ESSENTIALLY do the same thing which would be wvw infusions.  It has nothing to do with my ability to purchase them today as is.

so everything you just said as to why you dont want to change them is not a reason.  Its literally not a valid reason why you dont want it changed.  So you're basically saying you like the way the power creep is now, you like that its absurdly expensive, nobody knows if you have it so it should remain absurdley expensive and the power creep thats hard to obtain and is exclusionary and not accessible to most players is fine.

thats not a reason lol.  Its also ridiculous.  Sorry i want max stats that are CHEAP and EASILY accessible.  NOW if you want to lavish veteran players with more fractal relics or, gold or spirit shards, or even legendaries, i dont care, sounds great, seems fine and id work towards it too.  BUT STATS!?  NO.... thats ridiculous.  IT completely ruins the speed running in this game for fractals as an example, YOU cant even remotely hope to compete with fractal speed clears without god of fractals and even worse the infusions are HARD TO OBTAIN because they cost 1250g to gear out ONE CHARACTER or requires grinding CM's for MONTHS.

I guess you enjoy waiting months of grinding CM's just to gear out a new build or paying 1250g + fractal relics to play on an alt and to play with a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD vs ALL OTHER PLAYERS LIKE A HORIZONTAL PROGRESSION GAME SHOULD BE PLAYED  lol.  THis is ridiculous.

  ITS ABSURD, if you want verticle progression and having to "PAY" to get maximum stats you should play wow or ffxiv and not gw2.

 

 

Vertical progression implies a constant or frequent upward increase in power level, almost always through gear. What we have in this game is powercreep through constant buffs to damage/healing/boon output. We very rarely get any vertical progression in terms of gear, for instance the jade bot core, or the added weapon proficiencies with soto. This however, is in no way related to your post, since stat infusions, according to the wiki, have been in their current state since 2016. You'll have to forgive me for being unable to personally confirm this myself since I wasn't playing back then, weirdly enough though, I was still able to get stat infusions on 2x healers, 1 power dps and 1 condi dps character, go figure.

Horizontal progression game doesn't mean you'll start the game and immediately have best in slot gear, that is only implemented in competitive modes in games, and even then, it isn't a particularly popular way of implementation as a lot of people still prefer to have their time invested in the game to meaningfully contribute to their power level in terms of their gear as well.

A horizontal progression game is one where you know there is an end to your farm, you get the best achievable gear, and you know you don't have to grind from scratch every major patch. This is essentially what we have in the game right now, and the only time you need to worry about altering your gear is if you swap to a different build and you need to cap crit chance/condi or boon duration again, or to gain minimal dps boost by going for more ferocity than power with a different set of stats, while the amount of total stats you gain remains the same among each specific number of stat combinations (3 stats, 4 stats and all stats), aka all 3-stat gear has the same total number of attributes as other 3-stat combinations, same for 4-stat gear and celestial with all stats. 4-stat gear gets more stats in total, but this is balanced by most classes needing 3 core stats for maximum damage/healing, making the 4th stat less relevant. This is valid for celestial as well, while the sheer amount of stats you get is a lot higher than everything else, and yet it excels at nothing, making it lackluster for most builds in PvE, and mostly ran by open world farming setups or in WvW as an all arounder.

This game is more accessible than any MMO out there, this is the objective truth of the matter. The problem here, however, is that people like you want to be handed things for free instead of playing the game. "Sure I could do fractals and CM to farm, but I don't want to" then you don't need stat infusions, it is that simple. No amount of infusions will make you a good player in this game if you think gw2 is inaccessible. We have builds doing 30k damage with literally auto attacks alone. 

About speed running, judging from your statements, I sincerely doubt you are anywhere near capable enough to compete with anyone for a speed clear, so I wouldn't worry about fractal god or infusions in that regard. Start doing 98-100% of benchmark damage on builds you play, then you can start worrying about stat infusions and fractal god.
The fact of the matter is, the people who do speed runs, have run said fractals so many times that they know the encounters intimately, down to the last detail. Have you ever seen a person do a CM fractal with 0 agony resistance just by never getting hit? I have (for anyone who wants to try this, it isn't possible for all CMs btw). 

It is funny that you have the audacity to tell people to go play some other game, while you are the one malcontent with how certain systems function in this game. I'm sure thinking a little before typing will help you with this problem. Also, one last thing of note, TYPING IN CAPS LIKE THIS doesn't make you more credible, just obnoxious.

Edited March 24 by Passerbye.6291

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

10 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

So how do you think this cheapening of stat ar infusion would shake up (if not even invalidate) the natural climbing from t1-t4 newbies do while getting all those +1 ar infusions as rewards they can use to craft their normal +2-9 ar infusions?

You also can get stat +9 infusions outside of fractals so maybe start raid and strike clearing, probabely have to pay for a ht cm kill to start buying those if you have trouble with fractals tho

i love how you jump to, you must be having trouble from fractals.  NO IM NOT IVE DONE ALL CM'S THANKS I CAN DO THEM ALL IVE ALSO DONE ALL RAIDS AND STRIKES AND MOST CM"S ON THOSE I ALSO HAVE LEGEND SPVP TITLES (MULTIPLE ONES) SO IF THAT GIVES YOU AN IDEA OF ALL THE GAME MODES I PLAY AND WHERE MY SKILL LEVEL IS AT.

 

again the thread is not about my ability to purchase these things. and to answer you, it doesnt invalidate anything?  THe entire idea of agony resist was a terrible idea. What new player for the most doesnt just start out buying 150 agony resist.  I have less of a problem with it since 150 agony resist with regular infusions only costs around 100g which is comparable to ascended armor. I mean i dont like it.  IF it was up to me they'd remove agony resist as it was a terrible idea.  But hey at least its not 1250 freaking gold. 

 

i mean wow a stat that you have to have to do a dungeon.  What a great way to get people not interested in the game mode lol,, dunno what they were thinking.

Edited March 24 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

7 hours ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

Vertical progression implies a constant or frequent upward increase in power level, almost always through gear. What we have in this game is powercreep through constant buffs to damage/healing/boon output. We very rarely get any vertical progression in terms of gear, for instance the jade bot core, or the added weapon proficiencies with soto. This however, is in no way related to your post, since stat infusions, according to the wiki, have been in their current state since 2016. You'll have to forgive me for being unable to personally confirm this myself since I wasn't playing back then, weirdly enough though, I was still able to get stat infusions on 2x healers, 1 power dps and 1 condi dps character, go figure.

Horizontal progression game doesn't mean you'll start the game and immediately have best in slot gear, that is only implemented in competitive modes in games, and even then, it isn't a particularly popular way of implementation as a lot of people still prefer to have their time invested in the game to meaningfully contribute to their power level in terms of their gear as well.

A horizontal progression game is one where you know there is an end to your farm, you get the best achievable gear, and you know you don't have to grind from scratch every major patch. This is essentially what we have in the game right now, and the only time you need to worry about altering your gear is if you swap to a different build and you need to cap crit chance/condi or boon duration again, or to gain minimal dps boost by going for more ferocity than power with a different set of stats, while the amount of total stats you gain remains the same among each specific number of stat combinations (3 stats, 4 stats and all stats), aka all 3-stat gear has the same total number of attributes as other 3-stat combinations, same for 4-stat gear and celestial with all stats. 4-stat gear gets more stats in total, but this is balanced by most classes needing 3 core stats for maximum damage/healing, making the 4th stat less relevant. This is valid for celestial as well, while the sheer amount of stats you get is a lot higher than everything else, and yet it excels at nothing, making it lackluster for most builds in PvE, and mostly ran by open world farming setups or in WvW as an all arounder.

This game is more accessible than any MMO out there, this is the objective truth of the matter. The problem here, however, is that people like you want to be handed things for free instead of playing the game. "Sure I could do fractals and CM to farm, but I don't want to" then you don't need stat infusions, it is that simple. No amount of infusions will make you a good player in this game if you think gw2 is inaccessible. We have builds doing 30k damage with literally auto attacks alone. 

About speed running, judging from your statements, I sincerely doubt you are anywhere near capable enough to compete with anyone for a speed clear, so I wouldn't worry about fractal god or infusions in that regard. Start doing 98-100% of benchmark damage on builds you play, then you can start worrying about stat infusions and fractal god.
The fact of the matter is, the people who do speed runs, have run said fractals so many times that they know the encounters intimately, down to the last detail. Have you ever seen a person do a CM fractal with 0 agony resistance just by never getting hit? I have (for anyone who wants to try this, it isn't possible for all CMs btw). 

It is funny that you have the audacity to tell people to go play some other game, while you are the one malcontent with how certain systems function in this game. I'm sure thinking a little before typing will help you with this problem. Also, one last thing of note, TYPING IN CAPS LIKE THIS doesn't make you more credible, just obnoxious.

1250g to max stats on one character/build is not accessible.  Horizontal progression means STAT wise you hit a stat cap and it never goes past that point.  years later you can come back and it never goes past that point. IT usually also means those stats are EASILY acquirable so that everyone is on a level playing field as stat gain is NOT the focus of the game.

Edited March 24 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108

[Passerbye.6291]

18 hours ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

1250g to max stats on one character/build is not accessible.  Horizontal progression means STAT wise you hit a stat cap and it never goes past that point.  years later you can come back and it never goes past that point. IT usually also means those stats are EASILY acquirable so that everyone is on a level playing field as stat gain is NOT the focus of the game.

The game is accessible though. I think you mean something else when you say accessible. Let me put it this way, when you put a ramp to the side of stairs, you render the upper floor accessible to people in wheelchairs for instance, but I'd still race them up the stairs any day, and I'm not even in shape. Similarly, fractals are accessible because you can either climb up to T4 the intended way and have the resources necessary to have all the +9s you need along the way, or simply farm whatever content in the open world and buy them from TP and skip to T4 and CMs if you believe yourself to be capable. In what world is this inaccessible to you? There isn't a single person with the skills and know how to clear T4s and/or CMs but without the means to have +9 agony infusions.

What you are arguing for are stat infusions, which as many have repeatedly pointed out and you willfully ignored, are not necessary and only amount to roughly a 2% damage gain. If you are in a position where you are barely failing content and 2% increased damage would save you, you are playing a higher tier difficulty than you can manage. Currently, the only content that requires that level of tryharding in terms of your output is cerus CM, which doesn't require agony infusions in the first place, so you're good there.

About horizontal progression meaning a stat cap, I agree, this is exactly what we have in gw 2, you literally have the same stats from your gear as you did 3 years ago. They did add some new items and revamped runes etc. but beyond that, the stat gain from gear remains the same outside of balance changes like celestial gear. Horizontal in no way means gear should be easily acquired, if anything, giving everyone legendary gear the first time they login would result in a massive exodus from the game. 

Btw, stat gain is not the focus of this game and never has been. The problem is, you arrive at these conclusions in your mind, then proceed to consider them to be correct. Give me a single example of a fractal, where lack of stat infusions is the reason for failure, there isn't one. A group fails fractals simply because they fail mechanics. With the amount of power creep through buffing we have in the game and the existence of builds that essentially play themselves while doing over 30k damage means that There isn't a single person who is physically incapable of meeting DPS checks in any fractal CM, or raids and strikes for that matter, the only exceptions being cerus CM, and HT CM to a lesser degree, again, neither of which require agony infusions. You can press keys with your nose and still do more than 30k dps, which is more than enough for any fractal, if you need the game to be more accessible than this, Anet will have to find a way to have people in vegetative state clear CMs.

Edited March 25 by Passerbye.6291

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

1 hour ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

The game is accessible though. I think you mean something else when you say accessible. Let me put it this way, when you put a ramp to the side of stairs, you render the upper floor accessible to people in wheelchairs for instance, but I'd still race them up the stairs any day, and I'm not even in shape. Similarly, fractals are accessible because you can either climb up to T4 the intended way and have the resources necessary to have all the +9s you need along the way, or simply farm whatever content in the open world and buy them from TP and skip to T4 and CMs if you believe yourself to be capable. In what world is this inaccessible to you? There isn't a single person with the skills and know how to clear T4s and/or CMs but without the means to have +9 agony infusions.

What are you are arguing for are stat infusions, which as many have repeatedly pointed out and you willfully ignored, are not necessary and only amount for roughly a 2% damage gain. If you are in a position where you are barely failing content and 2% increased damage would save you, you are playing a higher tier difficulty than you can manage. Currently, the only content that requires that level of tryharding in terms of your output is cerus CM, which doesn't require agony infusions in the first place, so you're good there.

About horizontal progression meaning a stat cap, I agree, this is exactly what we have in gw 2, you literally have the same stats from your gear as you did 3 years ago. They did add some new items and revamped runes etc. but beyond that, the stat gain from gear remains the same outside of balance changes like celestial gear. Horizontal in no way means gear should be easily acquired, if anything, giving everyone legendary gear the first time they login would result in a massive exodus from the game. 

Btw, stat gain is not the focus of this game and never has been. The problem is, you arrive at these conclusions in your mind, then proceed to consider them to be correct. Give me a single example of a fractal, where lack of stat infusions is the reason for failure, there isn't one. A group fails fractals simply because they fail mechanics. With the amount of power creep through buffing we have in the game and the existence of builds that essentially play themselves while doing over 30k damage means that There isn't a single person who is physically incapable of meeting DPS checks in any fractal CM, or raids and strikes for that matter, the only exceptions being cerus CM, and HT CM to a lesser degree, again, neither of which require agony infusions. You can press keys with your nose and still do more than 30k dps, which is more than enough for any fractal, if you need the game to be more accessible than this, Anet will have to find a way to have people in vegetative state clear CMs.

there should be nobody with higher stats than another player, and if there is, the player without the + stats should be able to get them easily.  Your argument that max stats are NOT NECESSARy even though currently its unbalanced and max stats are only obtained by tons of gold or tons of CM's which is the top content of fractals.  Agony infusions with + stats SHOULD NOT be hard to obtain, and saying they're "NOT NECESSARY" and nobody will know if you have them or not is not an argument lol. and  THen you conclude that nothing should changed lol.

Oh and ur other argument is the game can be played without them.  great logic, very strong point lol. well they should give me 1000 + stats and when people complain i can say "you don't know i have those stats" "you having them is not necessary" "nobody knows if you have them or not" "you can play the game without it" and also if you want them pay half a legendary in gold (which equates to credit card which equates to pay to win, JUST TO PLAY THE CONTENT OPTIMALLY LOL) or run CM's for months lol all to gear out one lousy characters single build and then you have to do it all over again if you want to play something else...... GREAT, nah ur right that definitely  seems like it doesn't need to be changed, uh huh lol.

right.

 

Oh but i guess because were talking about 90 + stats as opposed to +1000 stats the moral core of the argument is DIFFERENT Some how, only it isnt since stats are stats, and it doesnt really matter if its +1 or +1 billion.

Edited March 24 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108

[Passerbye.6291]

35 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

there should be nobody with higher stats than another player, and if there is, the player without the + stats should be able to get them easily.  Your argument that max stats are NOT NECESSARy even though currently its unbalanced and max stats are only obtained by tons of gold or tons of CM's which is the top content of fractals.  Agony infusions with + stats SHOULD NOT be hard to obtain, and saying they're "NOT NECESSARY" and nobody will know if you have them or not is not an argument lol. and  THen you conclude that nothing should changed lol.

Oh and ur other argument is the game can be played without them.  great logic, very strong point lol. well they should give me 1000 + stats and when people complain i can say "you don't know i have those stats" "you having them is not necessary" "nobody knows if you have them or not" "you can play the game without it" and also if you want them pay half a legendary in gold (which equates to credit card which equates to pay to win, JUST TO PLAY THE CONTENT OPTIMALLY LOL) or run CM's for months lol all to gear out one lousy characters single build and then you have to do it all over again if you want to play something else...... GREAT, nah ur right that definitely  seems like it doesn't need to be changed, uh huh lol.

right.

 

Oh but i guess because were talking about 90 + stats as opposed to +1000 stats the moral core of the argument is DIFFERENT Some how, only it isnt since stats are stats, and it doesnt really matter if its +1 or +1 billion.

Who decided that there should be noone with higher stats? I'm very much happy with being rewarded for what I invested in the game, and no, it wasn't money. Agony infusions with stats is indeed an investment, and it isn't a compulsory one, as many people have pointed out with facts. Facts do not change no matter how many times you caps spam, but keep at it if you want, you do seem to need an outlet for all that frustration. The sad part is though, everyone other than you on this thread knows very well that your issues do not originate from lacking those 90 attributes, but it is a lot easier to blame that than yourself.

You can pay however much money you want and you'll still do nowhere near as much damage as someone good at the game without knowing how to play the game, hence why the game isn't pay to win. That's my point, 2% damage isn't what makes the difference, people being good at the game is. 

Also yes, numbers matter, you can't just say stealing 1 egg is the same crime as stealing an entire stock of them. And yes, casually giving one group of people 50% more damage would indeed be a massive problem, meanwhile rewarding people for investing time in fractals with up to 9% damage specifically in fractals, as anyone can get cheap stat infusions for all other content and fractal god only functions in fractals, isn't a problem. But hey, please prove me wrong, send me one of your dps logs where 2% damage gain would have made you the fastest clear of any endgame content in the game.

You keep changing your stance, and keep moving goal posts every time it suits you, make a claim that it is about new players, then say it is for speed runners, then say you could get them if you wanted to, then proceed to baby rage about not having them, ever considered a career in politics?

This is what you sound like "Your argument which you based upon facts and numbers ISN'T AN ARGUMENT BECAUSE I DEEMED IT SO LA LA LA, CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA". I won't hold my breath for a logical argument, proceed with your temper tantrum, I'll grab some popcorn.

[SuavePuppy.2809]

On 3/17/2024 at 10:48 PM, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

why not cater to people who DO CARE like me

Pretty well sums up every single one of these threads

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

1 hour ago, SuavePuppy.2809 said:

Pretty well sums up every single one of these threads

oh so other players DON'T want cheaper agony + 5 infusions, why would that be? Why would ANYONE not want cheaper infusions?

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

8 hours ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

Who decided that there should be noone with higher stats? I'm very much happy with being rewarded for what I invested in the game, and no, it wasn't money. Agony infusions with stats is indeed an investment, and it isn't a compulsory one, as many people have pointed out with facts. Facts do not change no matter how many times you caps spam, but keep at it if you want, you do seem to need an outlet for all that frustration. The sad part is though, everyone other than you on this thread knows very well that your issues do not originate from lacking those 90 attributes, but it is a lot easier to blame that than yourself.

You can pay however much money you want and you'll still do nowhere near as much damage as someone good at the game without knowing how to play the game, hence why the game isn't pay to win. That's my point, 2% damage isn't what makes the difference, people being good at the game is. 

Also yes, numbers matter, you can't just say stealing 1 egg is the same crime as stealing an entire stock of them. And yes, casually giving one group of people 50% more damage would indeed be a massive problem, meanwhile rewarding people for investing time in fractals with up to 9% damage specifically in fractals, as anyone can get cheap stat infusions for all other content and fractal god only functions in fractals, isn't a problem. But hey, please prove me wrong, send me one of your dps logs where 2% damage gain would have made you the fastest clear of any endgame content in the game.

You keep changing your stance, and keep moving goal posts every time it suits you, make a claim that it is about new players, then say it is for speed runners, then say you could get them if you wanted to, then proceed to baby rage about not having them, ever considered a career in politics?

This is what you sound like "Your argument which you based upon facts and numbers ISN'T AN ARGUMENT BECAUSE I DEEMED IT SO LA LA LA, CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA". I won't hold my breath for a logical argument, proceed with your temper tantrum, I'll grab some popcorn.

i dont know whats so hard for all of you to understand. Gating raw stats behind gold or playtime is wrong in this sort of game.  And if you're going to do it, which they have with agony infusions and ascended gear.  Then at the very least it should be accessible EASILY to everyone.  1250g is not easily accessible nor is months of CM grinding.  It doesn't promote swapping builds. EVERYONE wants max stats.   I mean what are you advocating that you ENJOY playing without max stats lol?  Cuz max stats are optional lol?  or that its fine to play without max stats lol?  ridiculous.

Max stats is literally the entire drive of vertical progression based games.  THis is horizontal progression game, it has NO PLACE IN THIS GAME.  This is not a hard concept.  Im not moving goal posts, i dont care what argument you point out of mine, ive been saying the same thing all along.  You guys keep nitpicking and going in loops trying to justify why you dont want it changed, while not providing ANY VALID REASONS why these infusions should not be provided cheap and affordable and easy to acquire for everyone.

No need for the popcorn im done, talking to you people is like a trip to the nut house, you dont understand even basic logic, and you want to do whatever results in anet doing the least amount of work and also you promote exclusion, elitism and bullying behavior.

if anet doesnt care about its player base then whatever, Ive told them max stats for fractals is not easily accessible ive shown the reasons, all anyone in here has said is "who cares" and its fine the way it is.  So whatever.  I could make this game clearly better than anet can if they agree with you guys instead of me.  THEY wonder why wow and ffxiv makes 77 million a month and gw2 makes only 7 million, maybe they should listen to players who have played all 3 games and are gw1 and gw2 vets since gw1 launch, or I guess they can listen to the people in here with inane responses.

 

Edited March 25 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108