Just Make Guild Wars 3. This Game is Irredeemable

[jdawgie.1835]

3 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

That being said, PvP is a core part of any "living" game. It's a stopgap between content. It was literally "end game" for early GW2. Players evolve in ways NPCs (currently) don't and fights remain fresh longer. People naturally WANT to fight/compete against each other directly, not through PvE logs. I think it would be foolish to not include PvP in any new MMO.

Amen brother - Top 10 favorite statements made on the forums right here. 

[Yerlock.4678]

19 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I feel like the good business decision for mmos going forward would not include attempting to tame the ever shifting demands of a competitive playerbase and just ship a game people enjoy coming home after their job to play. I highly doubt GW3, if it is a separate stand alone entity, would be as welcoming to competitive players. 

I also disagree with the opening post. This game's far from irredeemable, and a good portion of the balance changes have been suitable as of late. It still needs lots of work, but I think it's very doable. People still play Melee and Third strike; heck, people still play WoW. 

I tend to agree with this. The problem with PvP is pretty largely balance, but it is not insignificantly also due to the attitudes past balance neglect has spawned.

Whatever the case I think it’s reasonable to expect some form of pvp in Gw3, considering both Gw1 and 2 have it in some form or fashion.

Edited April 3 by gmmg.9210

[Vancho.8750]

Main problem with GW2 PVP currently is the population, people don't want to start a kittening grind to be barely competent. New people get floored instantly without clear reason why and that happens over and over and over since everyone is lumped in Gold matches so they drop the mode. Big reason is that Anet is so kittening focused on kittening conquest that is complicated by default add build system on top and you get a disaster. You need small scale PVP with simple goal which they have with 2v2, 3v3 deathmatch but the kitten thing is a week between the kitten conquest season and a large scale PVP mode where noobness can be covered up by other people but Anet didn't add modes which they kittening had in the first game and threw all their PVP in conquest and WVW. 
There is the Mechanics Creep in the game that doesn't help with retention, like most of the skills are kittening terrible to read what the kitten they do, I'm pretty sure people still don't know what the kitten most elementalist weapons and skills do, but I'm kinda sure people knew what the kitten the Warrior Staff did on the first day of release (even though they don't like to get simple slow bonked to death by it), so more simple concepts as I bonk you hurt and less you got grazed by particle shitstorm from who knows where and now you have 13 different condition icons on your bar.

GW2 PVP has the same issue as fighting games the barrier to entry is too huge and the only fun time for noobs is when they play vs other noobs which is at the release of the game if the balance and design is good enough. Since GW 2 is an MMO it doesn't get to rerelease or make a new pvp game every few years so Anet has to do something on expansions but Anet is incompetent in marketing and they have been trying the push PVP under the rug for years cause PVP toxic and "Ruins" the PG13 unicorn rainbow farts image of the game (lame as kitten by the way), and because of this new people will not even hear about the pvp in the game.

As for GW3 it will probably be some lame kitten PVE game with no clear direction that chucks new type of content every 6 to 12 months and forgets about the previous one like GW2.
Also GW3 will probably be one of those mobile/PC hybrids that NCSOFT is pushing these days.      

[Yerlock.4678]

5 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Main problem with GW2 PVP currently is the population, people don't want to start a kittening grind to be barely competent. New people get floored instantly without clear reason why and that happens over and over and over since everyone is lumped in Gold matches so they drop the mode. Big reason is that Anet is so kittening focused on kittening conquest that is complicated by default add build system on top and you get a disaster. You need small scale PVP with simple goal which they have with 2v2, 3v3 deathmatch but the kitten thing is a week between the kitten conquest season and a large scale PVP mode where noobness can be covered up by other people but Anet didn't add modes which they kittening had in the first game and threw all their PVP in conquest and WVW. 
There is the Mechanics Creep in the game that doesn't help with retention, like most of the skills are kittening terrible to read what the kitten they do, I'm pretty sure people still don't know what the kitten most elementalist weapons and skills do, but I'm kinda sure people knew what the kitten the Warrior Staff did on the first day of release (even though they don't like to get simple slow bonked to death by it), so more simple concepts as I bonk you hurt and less you got grazed by particle shitstorm from who knows where and now you have 13 different condition icons on your bar.

GW2 PVP has the same issue as fighting games the barrier to entry is too huge and the only fun time for noobs is when they play vs other noobs which is at the release of the game if the balance and design is good enough. Since GW 2 is an MMO it doesn't get to rerelease or make a new pvp game every few years so Anet has to do something on expansions but Anet is incompetent in marketing and they have been trying the push PVP under the rug for years cause PVP toxic and "Ruins" the PG13 unicorn rainbow farts image of the game (lame as kitten by the way), and because of this new people will not even hear about the pvp in the game.

As for GW3 it will probably be some lame kitten PVE game with no clear direction that chucks new type of content every 6 to 12 months and forgets about the previous one like GW2.
Also GW3 will probably be one of those mobile/PC hybrids that NCSOFT is pushing these days.      

The barrier to entry for gw2 combat especially PvP is way too high for sure. Add on top of that the basic and terrible UI that can’t be customized at all, and it can be a new players worst nightmare. Condis and boons are hard to read, and there’s tons of mechanics that have been added over the years that add another layer of complexity.

I think anet should definitely lean into the “easy to learn hard to master” concept that other fighting games have for Gw3. New players need to feel like they can easily pilot their toon and have fun while veterans can master the mechanics and wreck people. 

All the new especs and class mechanics make this overwhelming for new players for sure. Trying to add new things while not creating new rules and functions all the time in future expacs for Gw3 would go a long way to allow newer players to jump in without feeling overwhelmed.

TLDR: Make the UI better and more customizable/readable and don’t creep in new mechanics and weird crazy stuff all the time for Gw3 and its expansions.

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

On 4/2/2024 at 7:10 PM, bethekey.8314 said:

Some traits are always present among people. If a bad actor can manipulate a system for their gain, they will, often to the detriment of the community as a whole. Tragedy of the commons. For this reason, I don't think you can blame the PvP population and expect them to govern themselves. That's the developer's job.

Anet has enabled bad actors multiple times and effectively removed community building tools from relevance. People found wintrading, selling/sharing accounts, and hacking don't nearly get strong enough punishments. Manipulating queues with character swapping, friends lists, and duos is still doable. Matchmaking is WAY too loose with rating to provide consistently good games and indiscriminately punishes good players for the PvP sins of their bad teammates. Continuous lobbies with spectator mode were displaced by unranked and FFA, removing the places where PvP community is built and people learn.

Many of the above issues were conscious decisions on Anet's part. Streamers that draw attention to the game are given lesser punishments. Duos are in the name of friendship. Class matching by the matchmaker is meant to improve fairness etc.

That being said, PvP is a core part of any "living" game. It's a stopgap between content. It was literally "end game" for early GW2. Players evolve in ways NPCs (currently) don't and fights remain fresh longer. People naturally WANT to fight/compete against each other directly, not through PvE logs. I think it would be foolish to not include PvP in any new MMO.

oh, they gave up on policing the game mode early on. I think they stopped really caring about policing it ever since it was clear that GW2 PvP was longer no included in official Esports tournaments way back before HoT was announced. I say "no longer" in the sense that GW1 PvP was included in Esports for awhile... and so GW2 PvP was given the benefit of the doubt at first, and then quickly fell out of favor...

it was actually rather obvious when Anet stopped policing the bad behavior...

before HoT and shortly therafter, i actually PvP'd as endgame content, because i got bored in PvE and wasn't in a WvW guild. actually ranked up to 57 before i quit because of the constant AFKing. 9 out of 10 matches i played were very quickly 3v5s... all because people gave up when the score was 200- 100 ish.... i've played games where we came back from a 200 point deficit and won, because the team came together and outplayed the enemy. So i couldn't stomach the quitter attitudes 8ish years ago. Now my hand-eye coordination is crap after an injury, and i can no longer duel, so PvP mode is a thing of the past...

Also, if Anet gave up on policing the game 8 years ago.... i highly doubt they'd improve enough to properly run a PvP mode in yet a 3rd game... unless by some miracle they somehow get the funding to hire enough moderators to actually ban people as they cheat / AFK / etc...

[bethekey.8314]

3 hours ago, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

oh, they gave up on policing the game mode early on. I think they stopped really caring about policing it ever since it was clear that GW2 PvP was longer no included in official Esports tournaments way back before HoT was announced. I say "no longer" in the sense that GW1 PvP was included in Esports for awhile... and so GW2 PvP was given the benefit of the doubt at first, and then quickly fell out of favor...

it was actually rather obvious when Anet stopped policing the bad behavior...

before HoT and shortly therafter, i actually PvP'd as endgame content, because i got bored in PvE and wasn't in a WvW guild. actually ranked up to 57 before i quit because of the constant AFKing. 9 out of 10 matches i played were very quickly 3v5s... all because people gave up when the score was 200- 100 ish.... i've played games where we came back from a 200 point deficit and won, because the team came together and outplayed the enemy. So i couldn't stomach the quitter attitudes 8ish years ago. Now my hand-eye coordination is crap after an injury, and i can no longer duel, so PvP mode is a thing of the past...

Also, if Anet gave up on policing the game 8 years ago.... i highly doubt they'd improve enough to properly run a PvP mode in yet a 3rd game... unless by some miracle they somehow get the funding to hire enough moderators to actually ban people as they cheat / AFK / etc...

For sure there is less care about policing individual bad actors. That is a lot of work to do well.

Part of my point was that coarse grain, systematic changes could improve PvP regardless of individuals' actions (or could have, maybe it's too late for GW2).

[Yerlock.4678]

On 4/5/2024 at 1:21 PM, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

oh, they gave up on policing the game mode early on. I think they stopped really caring about policing it ever since it was clear that GW2 PvP was longer no included in official Esports tournaments way back before HoT was announced. I say "no longer" in the sense that GW1 PvP was included in Esports for awhile... and so GW2 PvP was given the benefit of the doubt at first, and then quickly fell out of favor...

it was actually rather obvious when Anet stopped policing the bad behavior...

before HoT and shortly therafter, i actually PvP'd as endgame content, because i got bored in PvE and wasn't in a WvW guild. actually ranked up to 57 before i quit because of the constant AFKing. 9 out of 10 matches i played were very quickly 3v5s... all because people gave up when the score was 200- 100 ish.... i've played games where we came back from a 200 point deficit and won, because the team came together and outplayed the enemy. So i couldn't stomach the quitter attitudes 8ish years ago. Now my hand-eye coordination is crap after an injury, and i can no longer duel, so PvP mode is a thing of the past...

Also, if Anet gave up on policing the game 8 years ago.... i highly doubt they'd improve enough to properly run a PvP mode in yet a 3rd game... unless by some miracle they somehow get the funding to hire enough moderators to actually ban people as they cheat / AFK / etc...

It almost sounds like a surrender option that takes the whole team agreeing to surrender would be a decent option 🤔