Giving up on thief WvW roaming (suggest alternatives)

[Daenxi.4530]

Okay to try and keep it as clear and simple as possible but I am a revenant main who spends quite a long time on thief, since playing this game I have learned to get properly geared and to perform at a decent standard in terms of roaming/duelling on my Shiro short bow revenant and I am happy with my progress. Thief on the other hand which I started as an ALT during covid lockdown out of boredom doesn't seem to work for me and I have tried multiple variations.
Celestial P/P Roamer
Power S/D Roamer
Shadow Arts D/P Roamer 
Shadow Arts Rifle Roamer .
The main issue that I seem to have here is just the lack of relative mobility when picking 1v1 fights in WvW e.g today I have fought willbenders, reapers and holosmiths and they all have the same relentless and endless pressure that forces me to expend my dodges, evasion./stealth utilise and elites as well as initiative on weapon skill dodges before I have any real opportunity to attack or counter attack. Also every since Shadow Arts was changed the loss of perma stealth has completely decimated my ability to have long drawn out fights where I have enough time to plan my bursts in between stealth and my ability to disengage and leaves fight at will.

However people still seem to swear by Shadow Arts D/P Roamer even after the nerf to shadow arts and I was considering going back to try it one more time as I have been running a Core P/D Condi roamer lately. But actually reading the fighting guide on metabattle there is just way too much effort that goes into setting up a stealth backstab in situations where you are most likely playing on the defensive it just doesn't seem worth the effort just a win in a wvw 1v1 fight. (Which is slightly easier than power the still having the same fundamental problem). 
So with the loss of stealth and inability to out move and evade other professions that were never designed to be highly mobile e.g Reaper, Willbender in the first iteration of the game and loss of perma stealth it just feels like thief is a non profession at this point, if I don't have perma stealth (which a standard for any rogue class in MMO's) and now I don't even have to advantage of superior mobility, is it time to quit and find something else. I just want to be able to enter 1v1 fights with the confidence that I can actually spend a decent amount of time actually on the offensive instead of being pressured out of all my mobility skills and dodges right after opening.

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

I think maybe thief playstyle is just not for you, since it is more mobile than any other class. A couple of things you can try first that maybe you're not thinking of.

• Make use of other targets on the field, neutral creatures, walls, NPCs, other players. Use your steal, Sword-2 etc. to shadowstep towards them and away from your enemies.
• Try shadowstepping away and letting your opponent close the gap, then return back and keep moving in the opposite direction, Sword is especially good for this as you can drop it on your feet with no target as you run, then return yourself behind your opponent.
• Combine stealth and shadowstepping to make it harder for them to follow your movements.
• Both Reaper and Willbender rely on big bursts, predict these and be measured in your use of cooldowns, don't panic.

If you can't get this maybe try something that is a bit more of a bruiser, Spellbreaker is good fun if you want to stick to "honourable" power builds, Harbinger, Druid, Catalyst are all strong if you have no qualms about using celestial stats.

[kash.9213]

Try slotting some stuff to have a more thorns build, if you played stuff like Diablo 2. I don't roam so I don't know what I'm talking about there but I'm on my own a lot and try to shake people coming at me. I try to add secondary modifiers to stuff like interrupts and whatever to have some kind of damage or drain going off every time they do something or step into something. I mostly try to walk them over the coals until they bounce, or I can, or someone dies. 

 

[Daenxi.4530]

5 hours ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

I think maybe thief playstyle is just not for you, since it is more mobile than any other class. A couple of things you can try first that maybe you're not thinking of.

• Make use of other targets on the field, neutral creatures, walls, NPCs, other players. Use your steal, Sword-2 etc. to shadowstep towards them and away from your enemies.
• Try shadowstepping away and letting your opponent close the gap, then return back and keep moving in the opposite direction, Sword is especially good for this as you can drop it on your feet with no target as you run, then return yourself behind your opponent.
• Combine stealth and shadowstepping to make it harder for them to follow your movements.
• Both Reaper and Willbender rely on big bursts, predict these and be measured in your use of cooldowns, don't panic.

If you can't get this maybe try something that is a bit more of a bruiser, Spellbreaker is good fun if you want to stick to "honourable" power builds, Harbinger, Druid, Catalyst are all strong if you have no qualms about using celestial stats.

Yeah this kind of what frustrates me sword/dagger is at least more mobile and has more potential for redirection against enemies but this level of having constantly position against enemies a along with what feels like the inferior killing power of the main hand sword. Sword 2 porting still costs initiative and professions like the Reaper and Willbender can just brute force their way until I run out of. I just hate the frustration of being permanently on the defensive as a thief until my enemy finally makes a mistake then I can risk going in for a strike at the cost of eating a bunch of burst damage. Coming from the angle of a Celestial short brow shiro revenant main it's a class that takes some technical skill and involves some evasion and redirection/porting. Is there any good alternative to a thief that's tired of having play like a freaking kitten in WvW, I just want to be able to handle a straight up fight against reapers and willbenders that are just rolling their faces on the keyboard the whole match.

I am enjoying experimenting with Hammer + Mace/Shield Bezerker in PvP lots of potential to just stand their and absorb and actually survive a full burst rotation even in long draw out fights from the enemy (unlike thief)  damage using different utilities skills.
The same thing applies for my trying of the Core Signet Ele in pvp lots of potential to just engage in long drawn out fights without thinking too much about being in the perfect situation or positioning. 

So help me out here guys based on my wants and needs I have just described where do I go from here (Warrior or Ele is seeming most likely but which one?)

Edited April 8 by Daenxi.4530

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

1 hour ago, Daenxi.4530 said:

Yeah this kind of what frustrates me sword/dagger is at least more mobile and has more potential for redirection against enemies but this level of having constantly position against enemies a along with what feels like the inferior killing power of the main hand sword. Sword 2 porting still costs initiative and professions like the Reaper and Willbender can just brute force their way until I run out of. I just hate the frustration of being permanently on the defensive as a thief until my enemy finally makes a mistake then I can risk going in for a strike at the cost of eating a bunch of burst damage. Coming from the angle of a Celestial short brow shiro revenant it's a class that takes some technical skill and involves some evasion and redirection/porting. Is there any good alternative to a thief that's tired of having play like a freaking kitten in WvW, I just want to be able to handle a straight up fight against kitten reapers and willbenders that are just rolling their faces on the keyboard the whole match.

I am enjoying experimenting with Hammer + Mace/Shield Bezerker in PvP lots of potential to just stand their and absorb and actually survive a full burst rotation even in long draw out fights from the enemy (unlike thief)  damage using different utilities skills.
The same thing applies for my trying of the Core Signet Ele in pvp lots of potential to just engage in long drawn out fights without thinking too much about being in the perfect situation or positioning. 

So help me out here guys based on my wants and needs I have just described where do I go from here (Warrior or Ele is seeming most likely but which one?)

Yeah definitely sounds to me like you want to be playing like a brawler, and that just isn't what thief does. I mean you can build thief with trailblazer and condi with lots of evasion, I've had some success with it but it's not really what it's meant for.

I think you would enjoy hammer/staff Spellbreaker for roaming, it lacks in ranged options but has plenty of skills to move around and close the distance or escape. It's got options to shrug off big hits too with full counter, and you can use your CC both offensively and defensively because you have so much of it. On top of that it strips boons lessening the effectiveness of stability and quickness on those bursty classes. Ultimately it does lack in the insane mobility and teleports that other classes have to escape, so once you're committed to a fight you're often in it for the duration (though you can chain movement skills to make distance, and they remove immobilize), but it's much more likely to come out on top with your preferred playstyle.

[Daenxi.4530]

Ok your explanation seems to make sense my Revenant main lets me tank (for a reasonable amount of time) and be agile and most importantly allows me to actually withstand a willbender burst rotation and breakthrough their aegis with lots of unlockable moves (or other professions) so on a scale of 1-10 how rough would the transition from revenant to warrior be?. Also is Hammer/Shield a good alternative to the staff I don't have Secrets of the obscure yet, I only have up to Path of Fire.

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

Staff really is the pick for staying power, it has really good mobility, heals, aegis, unblockable stacks, a block. But if you don't have it you could go greatsword for the movement, mace/shield or sword/shield would give you CC, blocks and/or mobility.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

8 hours ago, Daenxi.4530 said:

Okay to try and keep it as clear and simple as possible but I am a revenant main who spends quite a long time on thief, since playing this game I have learned to get properly geared and to perform at a decent standard in terms of roaming/duelling on my Shiro short bow revenant and I am happy with my progress. Thief on the other hand which I started as an ALT during covid lockdown out of boredom doesn't seem to work for me and I have tried multiple variations.
Celestial P/P Roamer
Power S/D Roamer
Shadow Arts D/P Roamer 
Shadow Arts Rifle Roamer .
The main issue that I seem to have here is just the lack of relative mobility when picking 1v1 fights in WvW e.g today I have fought willbenders, reapers and holosmiths and they all have the same relentless and endless pressure that forces me to expend my dodges, evasion./stealth utilise and elites as well as initiative on weapon skill dodges before I have any real opportunity to attack or counter attack. Also every since Shadow Arts was changed the loss of perma stealth has completely decimated my ability to have long drawn out fights where I have enough time to plan my bursts in between stealth and my ability to disengage and leaves fight at will.

However people still seem to swear by Shadow Arts D/P Roamer even after the nerf to shadow arts and I was considering going back to try it one more time as I have been running a Core P/D Condi roamer lately. But actually reading the fighting guide on metabattle there is just way too much effort that goes into setting up a stealth backstab in situations where you are most likely playing on the defensive it just doesn't seem worth the effort just a win in a wvw 1v1 fight. (Which is slightly easier than power the still having the same fundamental problem). 
So with the loss of stealth and inability to out move and evade other professions that were never designed to be highly mobile e.g Reaper, Willbender in the first iteration of the game and loss of perma stealth it just feels like thief is a non profession at this point, if I don't have perma stealth (which a standard for any rogue class in MMO's) and now I don't even have to advantage of superior mobility, is it time to quit and find something else. I just want to be able to enter 1v1 fights with the confidence that I can actually spend a decent amount of time actually on the offensive instead of being pressured out of all my mobility skills and dodges right after opening.

See, you are a great example of what I and a few others maining thief go through. We've explained till blue in the face exactly what u have experienced to no avail and it's said it's been this way.

Onlyspecific builds of thief really work well and even then they are stale and wayyy old to keep playing them despite new weapons and supposed changes or adjustments meant to grow thief interest but it's not enough. Axe isn't even that good tbh. Why would I, personally, come back for a new weapon just to watch it turn out crappier then what we had? It's exactly why some of us put thief or the game down (if you only played thief like myself).

 

We need more people like you to try out thief and see your point in this thread. We're not overpowered at all, rare circumstances only. Otherwise every other class will dunk on us everytime as far as advantageous growth. Jack if all trades, master of none

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

7 hours ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

I think maybe thief playstyle is just not for you, since it is more mobile than any other class. A couple of things you can try first that maybe you're not thinking of.

• Make use of other targets on the field, neutral creatures, walls, NPCs, other players. Use your steal, Sword-2 etc. to shadowstep towards them and away from your enemies.
• Try shadowstepping away and letting your opponent close the gap, then return back and keep moving in the opposite direction, Sword is especially good for this as you can drop it on your feet with no target as you run, then return yourself behind your opponent.
• Combine stealth and shadowstepping to make it harder for them to follow your movements.
• Both Reaper and Willbender rely on big bursts, predict these and be measured in your use of cooldowns, don't panic.

If you can't get this maybe try something that is a bit more of a bruiser, Spellbreaker is good fun if you want to stick to "honourable" power builds, Harbinger, Druid, Catalyst are all strong if you have no qualms about using celestial stats.

Thief is not the most mobile class as a few years ago and up to recent willbender. A willbender has all the pros and barely any cons. Heavy armor, high dmg condi or power, boon support and inv phases with blocks plus endless kiting. U can get ganked by a willbender in a zerg and unless the allies near you act, that little kitten can shoot off faster than a bottle rocket and you can do nothing

[Daenxi.4530]

9 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Thief is not the most mobile class as a few years ago and up to recent willbender. A willbender has all the pros and barely any cons. Heavy armor, high dmg condi or power, boon support and inv phases with blocks plus endless kiting. U can get ganked by a willbender in a zerg and unless the allies near you act, that little kitten can shoot off faster than a bottle rocket and you can do nothing

It's just crazy that in a game like we would see the thief lose between one and two of their most definitive advantages that they have over every other profession in the game like this (I mean Stealth and Moblity)

[bq pd.2148]

20 hours ago, Daenxi.4530 said:

Shadow Arts Rifle Roamer

did you use the metabattle version for this?
it uses Be Quick or be Killed , that will increase the burst damage and help with +1 or if you use it similar to d/p thief, kiting around and waiting for the right time to burst.
however you could instead use m7 trait to apply more consistent pressure from the ini regain and have more sustain from the boons, this way you can play more aggressively.
you can also use shadow portal in the flex spot to have a safe escape if needed to fight always on your own terms.

i think there is no other class better for being able to select your fights and perform decent enough versus any other build, even if deadeye now is just a pale shadow of what is was a couple years back.  because of this its difficult to suggest something 'better' for that.

personally i switch too much between roaming and larger scales these days that thief is not my first pick anymore. instead i have a lot of fun with mesmer that i wish i was better at and necro that seems way too efficient.

[Daenxi.4530]

17 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

did you use the metabattle version for this?
it uses Be Quick or be Killed , that will increase the burst damage and help with +1 or if you use it similar to d/p thief, kiting around and waiting for the right time to burst.
however you could instead use m7 trait to apply more consistent pressure from the ini regain and have more sustain from the boons, this way you can play more aggressively.
you can also use shadow portal in the flex spot to have a safe escape if needed to fight always on your own terms.

i think there is no other class better for being able to select your fights and perform decent enough versus any other build, even if deadeye now is just a pale shadow of what is was a couple years back.  because of this its difficult to suggest something 'better' for that.

personally i switch too much between roaming and larger scales these days that thief is not my first pick anymore. instead i have a lot of fun with mesmer that i wish i was better at and necro that seems way too efficient.

Yes I just logged off from a WvW roaming session with my Celestial Shiro Shortbow Revenant and it was a complete world of difference: I was able to jump into fights with will benders and win (Albeit with high difficulty but I actually felt I had a fighting chance) as a revenant I have enough dodges (Shiro Stance Utility Skill + Regular dodges with Vigor) (Staff 3 Block and Staff 5 Evade/Interrupt) and defence to actually withstand the initial burst and even force the willbender to run away and reset the fight multiple times lol. 
With this said my revenant is arguably has more effective agility then then my thief. 

And guess what, I also had no issue fighting thieves on my revenant either which makes it insane how much I have been smashing my head against my walls and keyboard trying to make thief work. I was able to destroy deadeyes and daredevils by overwhelming them with pressure and shortbow AOE knowing full well what it's like to feel on the receiving end of such a one sided assault. I could literally see them going through the exact same phases of expensing all dodges and stealths before I was even halfway through my own rotation. This is why I refuse the skill issue argument, the level of skill required to make a thief work against even average willbenders, reapers etc is completely unreasonable. 

[bq pd.2148]

13 minutes ago, Daenxi.4530 said:

This is why I refuse the skill issue argument, the level of skill required to make a thief work against even average willbenders, reapers etc is completely unreasonable. 

that might be, personally i just have played thief a lot more than any other class (i deleted way too many characters to give accurate numbers, but just the thieves i still have got ~10k hours on them) and so for me no other class comes even close to how safe it feels to roam on thief.
but i also dont worry too much about 1 vs 1 on any class because the bigger threat in WvW is that fights can quickly turn into 1 vs 2  or worse odds and thief is just excellent when it comes setting the terms for the fights and thus more likely win.

[kash.9213]

3 hours ago, Daenxi.4530 said:

Yes I just logged off from a WvW roaming session with my Celestial Shiro Shortbow Revenant and it was a complete world of difference: I was able to jump into fights with will benders and win (Albeit with high difficulty but I actually felt I had a fighting chance) as a revenant I have enough dodges (Shiro Stance Utility Skill + Regular dodges with Vigor) (Staff 3 Block and Staff 5 Evade/Interrupt) and defence to actually withstand the initial burst and even force the willbender to run away and reset the fight multiple times lol. 
With this said my revenant is arguably has more effective agility then then my thief. 

And guess what, I also had no issue fighting thieves on my revenant either which makes it insane how much I have been smashing my head against my walls and keyboard trying to make thief work. I was able to destroy deadeyes and daredevils by overwhelming them with pressure and shortbow AOE knowing full well what it's like to feel on the receiving end of such a one sided assault. I could literally see them going through the exact same phases of expensing all dodges and stealths before I was even halfway through my own rotation. This is why I refuse the skill issue argument, the level of skill required to make a thief work against even average willbenders, reapers etc is completely unreasonable. 

Again, I don't set out to roam so it might not be applicable, but the new Acrobatics traits provide a decent feedback loop for Boons and Endurance, Initiative, and damage modifiers from traits and gear slots generated from them if you're thinking about a moving fight. I don't get a lot of time to play after work, so I like to get ahead of map hotspots and then hang around when I find a good blob fight. I set up a Power Specter-Acrobatics-Trickery template after the Acro trait updates for map travel, but I keep falling back to it in blob fights also.  

 

[Daenxi.4530]

13 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

Again, I don't set out to roam so it might not be applicable, but the new Acrobatics traits provide a decent feedback loop for Boons and Endurance, Initiative, and damage modifiers from traits and gear slots generated from them if you're thinking about a moving fight. I don't get a lot of time to play after work, so I like to get ahead of map hotspots and then hang around when I find a good blob fight. I set up a Power Specter-Acrobatics-Trickery template after the Acro trait updates for map travel, but I keep falling back to it in blob fights also.  

 

I get that there are some modifications to trait lines that can make some marginable to noticeable differences but it's irrelevant as I am talking about the fundamental mechanics  and underlying strategy being built around not giving the thief (A rogue archetype) its basic fundamental strengths that it has across all games e.g REAL stealth uptime e.g perma stealth and mobility (Too many builds post End of dragons can simply just catch up the thief when they were not able to before). 
On the willbender vs thief issue, why does a 'Paladin'  effectively 5 Teleports (3 coming from the willbenders F1 F2 F3 skills,, one teleport on the sword another teleport coming from the utility) and the actual 'Rogue' class has a shadowstep, A signet teleport, A portal teleport, as well as a teleport on the main hand sword, a teleport on the shortbow and one on the D/P).

In THEORY its a Willbenders 5 possible Teleports  vs A thieves  teleports and in practice if I play a D/P thief with shortbow , I have 2 teleports coming from my weapon skills and more likely a single teleport coming from my shadow step with the rest of the skills being non stealthed evades (which a willbender has NO issue teleporting to). 
So really is playing a thief meta build I will basically only have 3 teleports max for my thief but the willbender can have up to 5 without any real loss in damage or utility. MAKE IT MAKE SENSE!!!! 

[DeceiverX.8361]

18 hours ago, Daenxi.4530 said:

the level of skill required to make a thief work against even average willbenders, reapers etc is completely unreasonable. 

The profession has generally been one of the most skill-intensive outside of the old SA D/P permastealth build for a super long time.  Really nothing new here.  It doesn't help a few of the builds you listed just aren't good at dueling other roaming specs.

The class requires significant playtime to be decent at, and there's little way around it.  Stuff like stealth and mobility supremacy break the game at the highest skill levels.  It's just how it is, and how it has been for years.  There is no such thing as building around its weaknesses in most cases these days.  Its strength has always been the ability to control a fight or blow someone up who was unsuspecting and not maintaining their boons.  Since we exist in a perma-boon state now and the infamous damage reduction patch hit Backstab and Crit Strikes build damage by nearly half, it's pretty much all in the control of cooldowns, spacing, and managing resources better than the opponent.

In some respects it is still a "Learn to play" issue in that the class is just harder but still can do well when played at a high caliber using builds designed to keep its resources up.  The problem is that it just requires significantly better resource management than other professions and will be outclassed by a significant margin below higher skill levels.

Revenant is pretty much the "sticky" version of thief that keeps fighting; thief is mostly relegated to reset patterns at this point due to a huge number of damage nerfs over the years.  If the latter of controlling and resetting the fight isn't exciting as a playstyle to you, you're not gonna have fun and will feel weak because it's deliberately meant to suck at fighting back directly without a significant skill disparity.

Before quitting the game, I switched to Reaper and Soulbeast after thousands of hours on thief, and largely didn't look back because I'm always drawn to high-risk damage dealers.  I was coaching long-term necro players into the Top 50 on Reaper within my first year on the class back when there was still an sPvP population.  The skill disparity just has to exist that way.

With changes to RShroud's consistency and boon dependence, I was not motivated to stick with the game.  If you enjoy anything but thief, you probably won't enjoy thief at the moment.  Hopefully that changes if ANet ever nerfs boons and/or resupplies the class some damage.  But I wouldn't hold my breath.

Edited April 10 by DeceiverX.8361

[Daenxi.4530]

9 minutes ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

The profession has generally been one of the most skill-intensive outside of the old SA D/P permastealth build for a super long time.  Really nothing new here.  It doesn't help a few of the builds you listed just aren't good at dueling other roaming specs.

The class requires significant playtime to be decent at, and there's little way around it.  Stuff like stealth and mobility supremacy break the game at the highest skill levels.  It's just how it is, and how it has been for years.  There is no such thing as building around its weaknesses in most cases these days.  Its strength has always been the ability to control a fight or blow someone up who was unsuspecting and not maintaining their boons.  Since we exist in a perma-boon state now and the infamous damage reduction patch hit Backstab and Crit Strikes build damage by nearly half, it's pretty much all in the control of cooldowns, spacing, and managing resources better than the opponent.

In some respects it is still a "Learn to play" issue in that the class is just harder but still can do well when played at a high caliber using builds designed to keep its resources up.  The problem is that it just requires significantly better resource management than other professions and will be outclassed by a significant margin below higher skill levels.

Revenant is pretty much the "sticky" version of thief that keeps fighting; thief is mostly relegated to reset patterns at this point due to a huge number of damage nerfs over the years.  If the latter of controlling and resetting the fight isn't exciting as a playstyle to you, you're not gonna have fun and will feel weak because it's deliberately meant to suck at fighting back directly without a significant skill disparity.

Before quitting the game, I switched to Reaper and Soulbeast after thousands of hours on thief, and largely didn't look back because I'm always drawn to high-risk damage dealers.  I was coaching long-term necro players into the Top 50 on Reaper within my first year on the class back when there was still an sPvP population.  The skill disparity just has to exist that way.

With changes to RShroud's consistency and boon dependence, I was not motivated to stick with the game.  If you enjoy anything but thief, you probably won't enjoy thief at the moment.  Hopefully that changes if ANet ever nerfs boons and/or resupplies the class some damage.  But I wouldn't hold my breath.

Well its really saying something when all those builds I listed come from the metabattle meta for thief WvW ROAMING and are still bad at roaming.
Well when put like this I can just accept the thief is trash now and I won't be coming back to it, the REAL injustice is the fact that Thief is basically just a complete anomaly in terms of the games overall meta and even just the general meta of MMO's (A rogue is almost always a stealthy assassins who can not only pick the terms of engagement but dominate 1v1s with no issue). 
Maybe its because I come from a fighting game background where 'skill issue'  basically the foundation (no gear stats, no NPCS, no teamfights, customs) there is generally no hiding low skill behind OP mechanics, but I can't bring myself to get into classes like Guardian, Necro or Ranger because of how cheap they feel and I definitely don't respect playing alongside of them in PvP because they generally don't have an answer to when  enemies don't die to their MUCH MUCH easier to execute (than thieves) abilities. that they are over reliant on.

I chose revenant because it seems to avoid the pitfalls of thief and the the big three I just mentioned (Necro, Guardian, Ranger), it's effective on the battlefield from big fights down to 1v1 while also actually having a mandatory learning curve where time spent learning and practicing directly correlates to consistent outcomes in gameplay (also know as winning because of skill). 
When I get put on a team with a revenant, warrior, engineer, elementalist and even thief  think oh thank god I can be confident this person knows how to play when the match up is both in their favour and not in their favour. If am on a team with a "sic em" soulbeast I either expect them to ravage the competition ( if the enemy are noobs or less experienced) but once it turns out the enemy isn't going to lie down and let themselves get mangled by a cheesy one shot noob trapping build from the soulbeast or they actually know not to trade blows with a reaper.

I'm looking for a profession for when I am not playing my revenant main but I want to do be as I described I want the effectiveness of the class to correlative with my level of skill and I wanted to be rewarded for being more skilled  as well as exposing and destroying players who are overly reliant on the ease of use of their class mechanics by never allow them to have easy fights. I also don't mind learning difficult mechanics (AS LONG AS I AM REWARDED FOR IT BY ACTUALLY HAVE A DECISIVE ADVANTAGE OVER MY OPPONENTS)
Right now, Elementalist and Warrior seem to fit the bill but what else? 

(Also not that I do actually some respect for Firebrands and their class mechanics actually seem quite complex while still being effective) 

[ArgothCZ.6420]

I could keep up when we were matched with servers who had single roamers. The last few matchups have small groups of them and almost no solo roamers, so I switched to condi strip/supp scourge and started zerging more. Thief (Rifle DE) is fragile and has damage for only a single roamer most of the time and I refuse to use the D/P crap. Even I can dispatch most of the thiefs with said crappy scourge build.

I'm thinking about trying blast scrapper (I accidentally found out they changed the gyros into well skills back then. I still thought they were minion-like.). I'm having a lot of fun in PvE with it and it's flexible and tough. The shortbow is kinda nice for support/healer too. I don't have much time for WvW lately so I didn't have time to test it properly.

[Frozey.8513]

On 4/8/2024 at 5:41 PM, Daenxi.4530 said:

Okay to try and keep it as clear and simple as possible but I am a revenant main who spends quite a long time on thief, since playing this game I have learned to get properly geared and to perform at a decent standard in terms of roaming/duelling on my Shiro short bow revenant and I am happy with my progress. Thief on the other hand which I started as an ALT during covid lockdown out of boredom doesn't seem to work for me and I have tried multiple variations.
Celestial P/P Roamer
Power S/D Roamer
Shadow Arts D/P Roamer 
Shadow Arts Rifle Roamer .
The main issue that I seem to have here is just the lack of relative mobility when picking 1v1 fights in WvW e.g today I have fought willbenders, reapers and holosmiths and they all have the same relentless and endless pressure that forces me to expend my dodges, evasion./stealth utilise and elites as well as initiative on weapon skill dodges before I have any real opportunity to attack or counter attack. Also every since Shadow Arts was changed the loss of perma stealth has completely decimated my ability to have long drawn out fights where I have enough time to plan my bursts in between stealth and my ability to disengage and leaves fight at will.

However people still seem to swear by Shadow Arts D/P Roamer even after the nerf to shadow arts and I was considering going back to try it one more time as I have been running a Core P/D Condi roamer lately. But actually reading the fighting guide on metabattle there is just way too much effort that goes into setting up a stealth backstab in situations where you are most likely playing on the defensive it just doesn't seem worth the effort just a win in a wvw 1v1 fight. (Which is slightly easier than power the still having the same fundamental problem). 
So with the loss of stealth and inability to out move and evade other professions that were never designed to be highly mobile e.g Reaper, Willbender in the first iteration of the game and loss of perma stealth it just feels like thief is a non profession at this point, if I don't have perma stealth (which a standard for any rogue class in MMO's) and now I don't even have to advantage of superior mobility, is it time to quit and find something else. I just want to be able to enter 1v1 fights with the confidence that I can actually spend a decent amount of time actually on the offensive instead of being pressured out of all my mobility skills and dodges right after opening.

Try Celestial Axe/Pistol.

I share similar experience with none of the other popular thief builds really clicking with me at all, feeling like there was a huge learning curve and large amounts of effort needed to get very little rewards out of them, but this one has really made me enjoy WvW roaming as a thief.

[kash.9213]

9 hours ago, Daenxi.4530 said:

I get that there are some modifications to trait lines that can make some marginable to noticeable differences but it's irrelevant as I am talking about the fundamental mechanics  and underlying strategy being built around not giving the thief (A rogue archetype) its basic fundamental strengths that it has across all games e.g REAL stealth uptime e.g perma stealth and mobility (Too many builds post End of dragons can simply just catch up the thief when they were not able to before). 
On the willbender vs thief issue, why does a 'Paladin'  effectively 5 Teleports (3 coming from the willbenders F1 F2 F3 skills,, one teleport on the sword another teleport coming from the utility) and the actual 'Rogue' class has a shadowstep, A signet teleport, A portal teleport, as well as a teleport on the main hand sword, a teleport on the shortbow and one on the D/P).

In THEORY its a Willbenders 5 possible Teleports  vs A thieves  teleports and in practice if I play a D/P thief with shortbow , I have 2 teleports coming from my weapon skills and more likely a single teleport coming from my shadow step with the rest of the skills being non stealthed evades (which a willbender has NO issue teleporting to). 
So really is playing a thief meta build I will basically only have 3 teleports max for my thief but the willbender can have up to 5 without any real loss in damage or utility. MAKE IT MAKE SENSE!!!! 

We shouldn't have perma stealth unless it's out of combat map travel. 

Another class might be able to flex on everyone for a patch or two but that shouldn't trigger a burst of power or skillset creep. They could think about regulating some features on some of our movement skills if they'd be too much, like maybe a Blind or something else might be excessive or not, to roll back some of the budget regulations from previous updates. Before the Initiative increase on Shortbow 5 I might have traveled by arrow more than by foot. 

[Daenxi.4530]

I keep going back and forth with this between deleting my thief and always giving the power meta builds one more try with full ascended gears (Right now I am on full exotics with a ascended dagger) because maybe its my gear that's the issue, I feel like I have sunk too muc time into it at this point (Sunk Cost Fallacy) not to mention I have levelled up hunstman to 300 as I wish to craft ascended and legendary shortbows for my revenants (and I guess thief).

Maybe I could just retire my thief from WvW roaming (considering roaming is a pretty inconsistent source of both entertainment and rewards), on the other hand full on zergs to take keeps and castles, thieves are useless in this arena too. It seems like small scale of 2v1 fights are where I can make this profession truly shine, but once again finding the perfect situations in WvW is just too danm inconsistent.

[kash.9213]

9 hours ago, Daenxi.4530 said:

I keep going back and forth with this between deleting my thief and always giving the power meta builds one more try with full ascended gears (Right now I am on full exotics with a ascended dagger) because maybe its my gear that's the issue, I feel like I have sunk too muc time into it at this point (Sunk Cost Fallacy) not to mention I have levelled up hunstman to 300 as I wish to craft ascended and legendary shortbows for my revenants (and I guess thief).

Maybe I could just retire my thief from WvW roaming (considering roaming is a pretty inconsistent source of both entertainment and rewards), on the other hand full on zergs to take keeps and castles, thieves are useless in this arena too. It seems like small scale of 2v1 fights are where I can make this profession truly shine, but once again finding the perfect situations in WvW is just too danm inconsistent.

Don't delete them at least if you're going to shelve them and keep adding to their ascended stat set over time maybe. Blob fights are some of the most fun I have with thief. The Initiative pool and how a lot of our animations move around an area and how many use topography are great to vibe with. Plus, some skill+skill combos and skill+jump/dodge combos add to that visceral feel similar to tunning into the moment and the map racing Roller Beatles. I know that doesn't speak on its effectiveness. 

Aside from having the options you need in your build on its own, I like to have a frequent leap on hand in blob fights for friendly fields for when I don't have enough of a lane to rubber band out and back in, like in tight SMC fights. I'm digging sword/dagger+scepter/pistol - Specter/Acro right now but I think rifle with DE traits was my second favorite for large fights, Silent Scope or Premeditation with M7, and felt most secure or mitigating to me. Rifle Death's Retreat and Advance are the real staff for me. It just feels more natural to land where I want, especially in Action Cam. 

I hear you though. Not trying to talk you into grinding with it. Just keep it in the books if you just want to feel the animations and stuff later on. 

Edited April 12 by kash.9213

[Daenxi.4530]

20 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

Don't delete them at least if you're going to shelve them and keep adding to their ascended stat set over time maybe. Blob fights are some of the most fun I have with thief. The Initiative pool and how a lot of our animations move around an area and how many use topography are great to vibe with. Plus, some skill+skill combos and skill+jump/dodge combos add to that visceral feel similar to tunning into the moment and the map racing Roller Beatles. I know that doesn't speak on its effectiveness. 

Aside from having the options you need in your build on its own, I like to have a frequent leap on hand in blob fights for friendly fields for when I don't have enough of a lane to rubber band out and back in, like in tight SMC fights. I'm digging sword/dagger+scepter/pistol - Specter/Acro right now but I think rifle with DE traits was my second favorite for large fights, Silent Scope or Premeditation with M7, and felt most secure or mitigating to me. Rifle Death's Retreat and Advance are the real staff for me. It just feels more natural to land where I want, especially in Action Cam. 

I hear you though. Not trying to talk you into grinding with it. Just keep it in the books if you just want to feel the animations and stuff later on. 

I don't think I can delete at this point I need to keep increasing the 300 Huntsman so I can craft ascended and legendary shortbows and who knows there is a 1% chance that Anet may restore the dignity of the thief so I may comeback to it but I really am tired of being squishy I might relegate it to PvE only. Like I said I will go for a straight up meta build with full ascended and attempt to be an effective thief one last time but if I still find the profession weak with full ascended then I give up so we will just have to wait and see.

[goron.7916]

I dont know how to put this in a nice way. Thief is the strongest roaming class, always has been. The amount of broken builds around are endless: Rifle Deadeye, DP Daredevil, Axe Power THief, Axe Condi Thief, Condi DD Daredevil, Staff Daredevil... It´s completely broken because you can disengage at ANY time you wish and  you can spam stealth indefinitely, so you avoid all damage. If you can avoid all damage, then you dont NEED to be tanky. That would just make it more unkillable than it already is. I mean what do people want these days, 30k hp? Cele Harbinger got that. If you just want to eat Damage without dying, I would suggest Cele Harb or Cele Berserker. Or just stick to your Cele Renegade.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

6 hours ago, goron.7916 said:

I dont know how to put this in a nice way. Thief is the strongest roaming class, always has been. The amount of broken builds around are endless: Rifle Deadeye, DP Daredevil, Axe Power THief, Axe Condi Thief, Condi DD Daredevil, Staff Daredevil... It´s completely broken because you can disengage at ANY time you wish and  you can spam stealth indefinitely, so you avoid all damage. If you can avoid all damage, then you dont NEED to be tanky. That would just make it more unkillable than it already is. I mean what do people want these days, 30k hp? Cele Harbinger got that. If you just want to eat Damage without dying, I would suggest Cele Harb or Cele Berserker. Or just stick to your Cele Renegade.

Any build one axe thief isn't a build its a gasp for a lastbreathe. Willbender will negate all of this and stealth doesn't negate damage it negates targeting and target required skills.

 

Question though, do you not post often at all or is this an alt account?

Just hard to take what you state without a grain of salt considering you only have like 4-5 posts regarding your credibility

Edited April 13 by Lithril Ashwalker.6230