Explanation of the changes in WvW

[Cael.3960]

On 4/17/2024 at 9:01 PM, Chaba.5410 said:

Another repeating cycle:  someone at the server meeting suggests that the pugs need training (yet again, same suggestion as last week, no one volunteers).  Another pipes up questioning which obstacles need to be removed to get pugs joining voice comms.  Yet another tries to put together builds for pugs to run and advertise what's effective.  Others decide that the actual solution is to get toxic in chat to chase the casuals away.

Yep. You have your low-effort cynics on both sides of the discussion. Plenty of jaded veterans have spent years watching new players encounter the game mode and bounce off that first wall of competitive difficulty. Back when the game was new and communities were eager to form and grow they'd offer help, guides, and share their own path of improvement. Guilds were a big part of the game back then, now not so much. Most folks kind of play in their own bubble unless a map meta requires a group to achieve success. Even then it's more common to float beside a tag than to actually join the squad. I think people are simply less social now than they used to be in MMO's. 

I'm in multiple guilds, both WvW and PvE, and training nights are a frequent discussion. When we have them turn out is generally low and most of the people who show up are veterans who really don't need the lessons, they just want to share what they've learned and maybe pick up a new trick they haven't seen before. Those who most need the training and understanding of how everything comes together in a build and how best to play it aren't interested. They expect to be carried on the back of more established players/guilds/servers and as the game is a casual interest at best there's little need to become skilled at it. Once they've experienced the content there's not much point in revisiting it, and if they don't intend to play it again there's no point in learning to improve. 

It's frustrating, because as someone who's written guides, recorded video, offered one-on-one instruction to guildmates and new players alike watching them leave after a couple months or just ignore the opportunities for improvement makes me question the point of going the extra mile. I still try though, which is why I'm on the forums this week instead of just ignoring the balance patch and the bizarre discussions around it like a sensible person should. Part of me still thinks there's a chance folks will attempt to see the game mode from more than one perspective and take that expanded understanding into consideration before getting angry at the patch notes and reaching for their torch and pitchforks. 

[ArchonWing.9480]

33 minutes ago, Cael.3960 said:

I'm in multiple guilds, both WvW and PvE, and training nights are a frequent discussion. When we have them turn out is generally low and most of the people who show up are veterans who really don't need the lessons, they just want to share what they've learned and maybe pick up a new trick they haven't seen before. Those who most need the training and understanding of how everything comes together in a build and how best to play it aren't interested. They expect to be carried on the back of more established players/guilds/servers and as the game is a casual interest at best there's little need to become skilled at it. Once they've experienced the content there's not much point in revisiting it, and if they don't intend to play it again there's no point in learning to improve. 

I see that quite a bit, but I think sometimes it's some veterans that need the training. It's veterans that are veterans solely by time and are kinda stuck in their own ways, while not adapting to game changes.

The game as a whole encourages people to do the bare minimum since it's rather rare to see the results of one's bad play since as you noted the carrying can cover up for it, and therefore players are rarely held accountable for their actions.

There are of course limits to both sides. A game that is overly punishing discourages casual players. And without casual players, the game dies. But players in this game always ask the floor to continuously sink.

Granted the forums tend to color things a bit where people seem to complain about being required to do literally anything.

At the end of the day, some people have to be held accountable for their choices. Groups should prioritize people who want to be improve and be a bit more serious first. And if people are just showing up with the wrong builds and not playing them right, then they simply can't be trusted with anything important and into group 1 it is.  Basically if people want the kid gloves, then they get the kid gloves.

Personally, I only bother to give feedback to people who actually are willing to take it. The others can just be scraped off the pavement when the fight ends.

Edited April 19 by ArchonWing.9480

[Cael.3960]

20 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

I see that quite a bit, but I think sometimes it's some veterans that need the training. It's veterans that are veterans solely by time and are kinda stuck in their own ways, while not adapting to game changes.

The game as a whole encourages people to do the bare minimum since it's rather rare to see the results of one's bad play since as you noted the carrying can cover up for it, and therefore players are rarely held accountable for their actions.

There are of course limits to both sides. A game that is overly punishing discourages casual players. And without casual players, the game dies. But players in this game always ask the floor to continuously sink.

Granted the forums tend to color things a bit where people seem to complain about being required to do literally anything.

At the end of the day, some people have to be held accountable for their choices. Groups should prioritize people who want to be improve and be a bit more serious first. And if people are just showing up with the wrong builds and not playing them right, then they simply can't be trusted with anything important and into group 1 it is.  Basically if people want the kid gloves, then they get the kid gloves.

Personally, I only bother to give feedback to people who actually are willing to take it. The others can just be scraped off the pavement when the fight ends.

Exactly. People need to learn how to adapt, especially those who are stuck in their own ways and refuse to see any other perspective. 

I say this not just to the defenders here who apparently never play the game mode without being at a numbers disadvantage, but to those who refuse to play the game unless it's when they're buried inside a blob where their shortcomings can go unnoticed. 

The zerglings hammering the 1 key are noticed for their poor play just as often as the wall-runners at spawn and the siegemasters throwing rocks at walls that can't take damage. 

Which is something I find hilarious, because the thought of those ineffective zerglings earning the everlasting hatred of die-hard defenders for being part of a blob whilst being functionally useless at the same time makes no sense at all. Honestly, a boonball full of bad players must be like Christmas for you guys. 

[ArchonWing.9480]

15 minutes ago, Cael.3960 said:

Honestly, a boonball full of bad players must be like Christmas for you guys. 

It is. I mean I basically never pve. That's where my gold comes from, besides stupid TP ploys (also from bad players that are impatient)

To me, when Anet nerfs pulls because bozos that got pulled off their arrow cart for the 100th time this week, or when Anet nerfs siege disablers because bozos can't run a bubble, it is all the same to me. It is not about nerfing offense or defense that bothers me, but catering to lazy bozos that want to be even lazier to the point they want the game to play itself. I just don't think people who can't do basic things should be deciding how this game is played.

I just do not understand how people can play a game for literally thousands of hours and cbf to put a stunbreak/emergency button on their build when they are alone. If they just played the game a few minutes every week sure, but they appear to be serious too. That's just a lack of self respect.

IMO, if people wanna siege hump or blob or whatever, it's cool. Just be the best they can be and not ask for help every time they want to lower the bar.

Edited April 19 by ArchonWing.9480

[Perceptor.7189]

On the other hand, you got Magg with 50+ players on ebg and a q of 30+ players sieging every corner of the map, because it's more easy to fight with siege than get down and fight the group...

[T G.7496]

On 4/17/2024 at 2:03 AM, Damian.8127 said:

A hypothetical organised blob seeks some fun. Enemy wont fight open field as they are outnumbered, outgunned or lack a commander.

To call more enemies or balance the fight, the blob attacks a Keep.

Inside, the scout, panic pulls all the tactics at the wrong time... Now you have some unrepairable walls, where randoms will spend the limited supply to absolutely no effect.

Disabling to buy time isn't possible anymore, so the squad that hopped map to defend (only half make it of course because the cloud and afk wall runners are filling the border) are now forced to engage, disorganised with little to no advantage and less options. Unable to even contest properly due to a small circle with no LoS, the keep flips and defenders die, scattered over two borders with no means to fight, some log out. The blob has completed its unsatisfying roam around the map and no longer has anywhere left to go; with queued borders, they wonder around until they get bored and log out. Perhaps an EWP goes off... someone is attacking their keep?! best hop... oh no, only half got it, might be rough... 

The advantage should BE with the defence. The clues in the name - KEEP. Some of the best fights revolve around the contesting and it gives roamers and unorganised clouds the chance to be effective. This makes for a more enjoyable experience all round. Maybe nerf SM  buff, but not every buff.

The sad part is someone sat down, maybe a team even, did some research and went "gosh, what would make WvW better? you know what our players would LOVE?? they think they want the alpha game style lag to stop so they could use more than 1 button; or maybe the model fixes to keeps, towers and the floor to stop cheaters flipping keeps and towers with no counter; - but no, I got one better; ALL RESOURCES INTO THIS GUYS! lets move the syths into the circles and make them smaller. Oh and golems, we dont, ever want camps to tier up again, so lets stop making defending them a possibility while we're at it".

Id LOVE to see a video explaining the thought process - even just a post. How is this better than before it was all fiddled with and from whos perspective? moving the syths into the small circle to complete the pve experience, because god knows its barely worth trying to defend.

In a rough matchup, for ALL servers perspectives, defensive advantage may be the only way to have some interesting fights. Removing the defensive equalisers, will result in more one sided matchups, less gameplay and spawn camping becoming a much more common reality, pushing players out of wvw.

True story.

[Ronin.4501]

On 4/18/2024 at 6:02 AM, SweetPotato.7456 said:

maybe should not allow anyone to build any siege in camp at all. LOL .... 

If you recall Anet had to do that in the jumping puzzles back in year 1. The big problem is...the devs that made fixes like that back then are not these devs. In fact I'm not sure the current devs are actually devs. All they seem capable of is turning a dial to nerf this/buff that without making any real changes.

[Anov.4237]

A big problem is.. the zerg comes and save the keep. They use their supply often not enough (some dont care) to repair all. Someone run back and repairs the rest. But they dont want to run back and forth 10 times. So things dont get repaired. 

Defence tactics cant be used, when U cant get enough supply to  close wall/gate after the attacking enemy r inside. .When closing gate/wall u often can defend the keep with half of the attackers.

Have just checked all "our" towers/keep etc. none of them r 100%. and then I dont want to waste seige on them.

Edited April 19 by Anov.4237

[Reztek.7805]

On 4/17/2024 at 3:03 AM, Damian.8127 said:

Id LOVE to see a video explaining the thought process - even just a post. How is this better than before it was all fiddled with and from whos perspective? moving the syths into the small circle to complete the pve experience, because god knows its barely worth trying to defend.

In a rough matchup, for ALL servers perspectives, defensive advantage may be the only way to have some interesting fights. Removing the defensive equalisers, will result in more one sided matchups, less gameplay and spawn camping becoming a much more common reality, pushing players out of wvw.

I'd love to see that too. Especially if there even IS a thought process, 'cause given their patch and post it doesn't seem so ...

 

The following changes are part of an ongoing effort to make fighting for—and in—objectives feel better for attacking groups, as the defenders' advantage inside their own structures was previously too strong. While we don't want to swing that advantage completely in favor of attacking groups, we also want to encourage player interaction so that large portions of attacks against structures don't feel like a slog with little payoff. We feel that these changes will help to incentivize more player vs. player interactions while still allowing for defensive tactical gameplay. We will continue to monitor how these changes affect sieges and structure attacks.

@ANet:

Oh, there are ongoing efforts in WvW? Why don't you share them with the world? Is there also an ongoing effort to make defending worthwhile? Because, well, if one of the two groups doesn't show up, your mastermind plan won't work out.

What makes you feel these changes are even anywhere near "good" and lol, seriously, "how" do you monitor to come to these conclusions.

The real question is: What is your vision for WvW? Why don't you explain that? Do you even have one?

Edited April 19 by Reztek.7805