arazoth.7290 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 15 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said: @Flowki.7194 surely it is sarcasm. Bruh wtf have u smoked that u are saying vindi is balanced xD. The Hammer build is just completely broken. And no it was not sarcasm. I would litterly send you Pictures of my totaly Games and you would Instantly notice that its right what i tell you lmao xd This thing is an absolute pain in plat+ Games. Like litterly. I just droped once on gold lvl ..... and the games where at least enjoyable cause of no vindi in it. But the Moment i reached P1 again there where 4 vindis each Match up. Surely its just not OP when you see something like this Happening xD. Spellbreaker where at least counter play able but this kitten of a build is not cause it litterly spams dodge like its free food while also dealing creasy amount of dmg for nothingness Vindi vs warrior 2 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myror.7521 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 (edited) @arazoth.7290 xD. Thats actually funny but also 100% true xd. Class can litterly Dodge EVERYTHING xd. I even struggle against it as a Thief cause you know it spams Dodge the enitre time in fight xd Edited April 29 by Myror.7521 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowki.7194 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 (edited) 14 hours ago, Shao.7236 said: We're not removing the dodge damage, we're putting it where it belongs. In the F2 and it's going to be a long evade that deals great damage like before while not being the jank that is called energy meld. I would say even give it Stability so it can be visually accurate and not interrupted. There's a lot of requirements to give the Stability still and it's only 240 Radius which leaves the user vulnerable if they aren't in that radius contributing. People laugh at core support but it has the strongest healing and damage reduction in the game and arguably good boons since the Energy Expulsion change. The reason why people still don't care much for it is because all that takes a bit of time, anticipation and your team to give a kitten about it, so typical core guard support is preferred for it's quick boons and Aegis/Protection in a big radius. I'm not here to tell you it's not impressive but all this core stuff has been mostly around for a while(Years) and I've been doing good with it hence why I main it because it's engaging. And the suggestions don't take away from that. Like said, some skills could see buffs if Vindi's evade wasn't the way it was and rather the F2, less jank having to cast Energy Meld as well. Give more space to good traits and remove the Vindi nerfs on core traits like Unwavering Avoidance because it's not necessary if we change the traits on Vindi to more interesting concepts. Vindi deserves it's burst from utility, it should just not be in the evade so let's move it around. Hammer Core Rev flows EXTREMELY well and simple to the point in comparison to Vindi where you have more utility split and so more buttons to press too but the added evade damage is forced and unnecessary, it tips the balance too hard. This is really reminiscent of Spellbreakers when PoF came out, they could spam evades when tethered with might makes right and those evades would be unblockable and hit for like 5k, it was ridiculous. I can get behind such changes overall, but the idea that hammer vindi is currently bloated, I just don't think that is true. Is it overperforming @p2+ vs p2+? I don't know, im not at that level, but even if it is, overperforming in 1 domain does not = bloated. If vindi was bloated to the point of OP, and it is becuase of evades, then it would have seen more use irrigardless of hammer buff, which it didn't, in any loadout. This points toward the combination of hammer 2 refresh, death drop damage, and potentially hammer 4 being the issues. 8 hours ago, Myror.7521 said: @Flowki.7194 surely it is sarcasm. Bruh wtf have u smoked that u are saying vindi is balanced xD. The Hammer build is just completely broken. And no it was not sarcasm. I would litterly send you Pictures of my totaly Games and you would Instantly notice that its right what i tell you lmao xd This thing is an absolute pain in plat+ Games. Like litterly. I just droped once on gold lvl ..... and the games where at least enjoyable cause of no vindi in it. But the Moment i reached P1 again there where 4 vindis each Match up. Surely its just not OP when you see something like this Happening xD. Spellbreaker where at least counter play able but this kitten of a build is not cause it litterly spams dodge like its free food while also dealing creasy amount of dmg for nothingness The thing is mate, when ever I play a similar or lower skill hammer vindi, I tend to beat them 9/10 duels. If I play a hammer vindi that is true p2+ skill level, I don't really have a chance due to the skill gap, they dodge more of my abilitys than I dodge of theirs, they need to fk up badly to lose. However.. the same applies when I get torchered by a true p2+ mirage, holo, SLB, mace untamed, druid, power necro, and so on. The first three question I will ask you directly, or anybody else; Are you sure you are a true p2+ skiled player? Are you sure you know exactly how to fight a p2 skilled hammer vindi? And are you sure your particular spec is adequate to deal with hammer vindi? (for example, my core rev spec struggles badly with power mirage/good mace rangers, hammer cata struggled graetly with SPB, LB ranger struggled badly vs tempest, etc). These questions are important, becuase it is clear the average hammer vindi is not owning anything.. and given the awefull MMR range in this game, I question a lot of p1 players true skill level.. who then think they can comment on a spec played by a true P2 player. Holo is the same, I win most at same skill/lower.. but I get owned royally by a true p2 holo.. I mean cmon. For me, I can safely say, if hammer vindi is an issue, it is between the true p2+ skill levels players to discuss... becuase it clearly is not an issue below plat., and p1 is basicaly a joke, where alot can be carried there by the rng of MMR or Q dodging. Edited April 29 by Flowki.7194 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myror.7521 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 @Flowki.7194 i am by no means a p2+ Player. But its not only me saying that the Hammer vindi is broken .... even noti just said it on Stream that it is currently clearly broken.... and even more than staff spell was lol xd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowki.7194 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 (edited) 1 hour ago, Myror.7521 said: @Flowki.7194 i am by no means a p2+ Player. But its not only me saying that the Hammer vindi is broken .... even noti just said it on Stream that it is currently clearly broken.... and even more than staff spell was lol xd Well that is just it then. Nobody is use to fighting Hammer vindi, and most people complaining are not even p2+, their opinions on top level mean nothing, they will get wiped by any p2+ player on a capable spec (Just like me and you both). So, wait until the collective of true P2+ players have faught it (not just 1 guy) to then determin if it is OP at top level. It is not OP below that, as an absolute fact. So, you personally.. will wipe G3 and below hammer vindis, yet you will get wiped by p2+ vindis, who are simply better than you, and would wipe you on any other capable spec. There is nothing to see here. The problem is, your idea of OP is completely skewed. Staff SPB was broken at every level, requiring a 2v1, or "just avoid it" at equal skill levels. Show me 1 video of a true gold 1 2, or 3 hammer vindi taking on two equally skilled dps. The same with power cata, scepter or hammer.. you had to be true p1+ to even consider a 2v1, and that was of lower skilled enemy in most cases. The likes of SLB/DH/Scrapper/condi cata, pioleted by average players, were consistantly dropping people of similar skill, and a massive threat to those of higher elo (within reason). Hammer vindi only becomes threatening if they are around true g3 level, where they begin to combo better, and don't eat all your cc/burst/condi. Even then, they are mostly only a threat in a group fight, not 1v1. It has no face tank, and difficult combos to pull off. Have you actually tried going sides and dueling with it, or even in group fights? I can tell you straight, there are easier (thus more reliable) ways of dueling/group fighting @true g3 or below. Edited April 29 by Flowki.7194 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowki.7194 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 12 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said: Vindi vs warrior Rofl, I missed that 😜 In fairness though, that is often me vs daze power mirage "wtf just happened". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myror.7521 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 (edited) @Flowki.7194 okay so in your eyes a spec that sometimes need 3 peops to get killed and can easily fight plus win every 1v1 Situation cause it spams dodges every 2 Seconds...... Is more balanced than a spellbreaker where you simply could blind and/or kite and kill it? xD Also might question you If you actually saw the last mAT. Cause even Boyce struggled against the current Hammer vindicator...... and he where playing the other too good build called Hammer Mace Mace ranger. Okay i don't gonna ask anything anymore xd Edited April 29 by Myror.7521 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowki.7194 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 1 minute ago, Myror.7521 said: @Flowki.7194 okay so in your eyes a spec that sometimes need 3 peops to get killed and can easily fight plus win every 1v1 Situation cause it spams dodges every 2 Seconds...... Is more balanced than a spellbreaker where you simply could blind and/or kite and kill it? xD You see the extreme contexts you have to goto to try and make your points? Show me 3x p2 players wasting all their damage on vindi evades. That sounds more like a p2 vindi vs g2s. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myror.7521 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 @Flowki.7194 your "wasting all skills into their dodges" does not make any sence since dodging is what the class is doing all the time .... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myror.7521 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 @Flowki.7194 Okay letz less argue xD. Let me Show you ingame! I might be a total noob in vindi but you gonna surely see what i mean! xd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arazoth.7290 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 15 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said: @Flowki.7194can easily fight plus win every 1v1 Situation cause it spams dodges every 2 Seconds...... (can't remove tagged name) Eitherway, this is now emotionally reacting without facts, if it does multiple evades after each other it isn't doing offensive and using energy towards defense. You can abuse this by striking then the right timing and putting the revenant in disadvantage. I think many need start looking again at revenant basics, because it stays actually the same. Also no, it can't win by far every 1v1, it isn't made to be duelist, that's not how it works. There are many better options for that speciality, it's rather mediocre compared to the real ones... 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowki.7194 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 (edited) 1 hour ago, Myror.7521 said: @Flowki.7194 Okay letz less argue xD. Let me Show you ingame! I might be a total noob in vindi but you gonna surely see what i mean! xd If you can consistantly kill me on core rev as hammer vindi, well done, you are minimum p1. Wtf is your point? Ps: I just watched a core mace ranger kill a god of arena hammer vindi. Edited April 29 by Flowki.7194 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myror.7521 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 @Flowki.7194 @arazoth.7290 okay i give Up. Just enjoy the OP kitten as long as its there. All im saying is thats its frustrating af to see that you loose a match the Moment your against 1 Up to 2 vindis in enemys Team xd. If you think its fair that it stays broken this long then fine buuut then you should not have cryed about staff warr cause that one was less spamy than this kitten thats all im telling ...... me out xd 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shao.7236 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 (edited) 10 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said: I can get behind such changes overall, but the idea that hammer vindi is currently bloated, I just don't think that is true. Is it overperforming @p2+ vs p2+? I don't know, im not at that level, but even if it is, overperforming in 1 domain does not = bloated. If vindi was bloated to the point of OP, and it is becuase of evades, then it would have seen more use irrigardless of hammer buff, which it didn't, in any loadout. This points toward the combination of hammer 2 refresh, death drop damage, and potentially hammer 4 being the issues. I should clarify, Hammer and Vindi are two different things to me and I don't think both paired are much of an issue right now either, it's all about the Vindi ability to do damage at every evade rather. Hammer in my eyes slightly overperforms because too many changes were given at once. In my honest opinion, FotM Aegis is too much and it hits too hard, especially because if you're in a tf mid, you can potentially hit 5 people for 5k that are far apart. Should nerf the damage on it tbh. The rest? It's fine. Death drop damage would get balanced out if it gets put on F2. Likewise, that's just another thing getting fixed if Tenacious Ruin is switched around. Edited April 29 by Shao.7236 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arazoth.7290 Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 3 hours ago, Myror.7521 said: @Flowki.7194 @arazoth.7290 okay i give Up. Just enjoy the OP kitten as long as its there. All im saying is thats its frustrating af to see that you loose a match the Moment your against 1 Up to 2 vindis in enemys Team xd. If you think its fair that it stays broken this long then fine buuut then you should not have cryed about staff warr cause that one was less spamy than this kitten thats all im telling ...... me out xd If it doesn't gets overall butchered really hard to make all rev power specs far from meta then I don't know what will. Because of this thread, so dw 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sereath.1428 Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 (edited) 2 hours ago, Shao.7236 said: I should clarify, Hammer and Vindi are two different things to me and I don't think both paired are much of an issue right now either, it's all about the Vindi ability to do damage at every evade rather. Hammer in my eyes slightly overperforms because too many changes were given at once. In my honest opinion, FotM Aegis is too much and it hits too hard, especially because if you're in a tf mid, you can potentially hit 5 people for 5k that are far apart. Should nerf the damage on it tbh. The rest? It's fine. Death drop damage would get balanced out if it gets put on F2. Likewise, that's just another thing getting fixed if Tenacious Ruin is switched around. And I've actually commented the same as well. I actually don't like Death Drop being that good, I dislike the gameplay. And it's throwing a match not taking it, I personally like Imperial Impact more. I've also personally said that they should drastically reduce the damage of Death Drop since it already comes with a +15% damage buff and that is already great. But they should also make Imperial Impact more useful. Utility wise. And the access to extra endurance for vindicator, such as vigor, is already gone from the spec, cant even use Retribution for that since they nerfed every synergy to the ground. That's why this thread is funny with the "Infinite evades, spamming them every 2 seconds for over a min while fighting 2-5 players at a time!" Just address Death Drop. Clearly too much to fight for the pseudo plat players who think they are better than they really are. And about hammer, I also commented how Field is quite overturned at the moment. It probably shouldn't be doing any damage at all. Not a fan either of how instead of making CoR (#2) more reliable they made it reset after a #5. Edited April 30 by Sereath.1428 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gotejjeken.1267 Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 It's weird to be like three months ahead of the curve on something--but yeah, Vindi has been good for a while now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sereath.1428 Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 Just now, Gotejjeken.1267 said: It's weird to be like three months ahead of the curve on something--but yeah, Vindi has been good for a while now. Brother, you got clowned even before the last set of hammer buffs. Good players behind shortbow vindis would have been doing the same. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gotejjeken.1267 Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 (edited) 1 minute ago, Sereath.1428 said: Brother, you got clowned even before the last set of hammer buffs. Good players behind shortbow vindis would have been doing the same. Calling Merp a clown? This forum talks a lot about high skill but apparently has no experience actually fighting it 😂. Edited April 30 by Gotejjeken.1267 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sereath.1428 Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 What does that make you, then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gotejjeken.1267 Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 2 minutes ago, Sereath.1428 said: What does that make you, then? It makes me three months ahead of the curve, as I can fight obviously skilled players and know when something is overperforming? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shagie.7612 Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 9 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said: The same with power cata, scepter or hammer hey just out of curiosity have u ever made a post that wasn't a thinly veiled "they nerfed my cata!" complaint? just wondering 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sereath.1428 Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 (edited) >good >overperforming So which one is it? Is it not supposed to be good? (Which apparently wasn't, since no mat team really tried it for a long time, not even after it got access to shortbow) This is how the average gamer/person typical forum user works. Can only think in terms of extremes. Everything is either useless or overpowered. Good/Competitive + not my main = Overperforming Can't even point to anything specific because can't even be bothered to read patch notes. "This class makes me so mad. Just nerf everything at the same time." Fight someone with thousands of hours on something. = "That thing is clearly broken, I should have won." Edited April 30 by Sereath.1428 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron.1294 Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 (edited) @arazoth.7290 @Flowki.7194 just watch MAT and see for yourself how stupid vindi hammer can really be... Edited April 30 by Aaron.1294 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shagie.7612 Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Sereath.1428 said: Is it not supposed to be good? (Which apparently wasn't, since no mat team really tried it for a long time, not even after it got access to shortbow) I don't think that's quite true. It hasn't won one since condi rev won a ways back, I don't believe (someone can fact check me on that), but there's been plenty of shortbow revs in both NA and EU in the actual matches. Part of the problem there is that shortbow has no defensive capability and it's all projectiles, in a game where proj hate ramped up dramatically since EoD came out. Support Tempest was really popular through some of that same period, Catalyst was everywhere, Shield Master existed, that kinda stuff. Not to say that means it's overperforming. Personally I think it is, but that's beside the point. Just that it being present at all means at least a little bit relative to some things just not showing up at all. Nobody's seen a power zerk period in that same time period, or probably a mech, herald and ren are almost entirely absent, etc Edited April 30 by Shagie.7612 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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